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one more thing @Via- I think you're overestimating the amount of votes on Sully. I don't think there's ever even been an actual wagon on him. Refa voted him at the start of the game and then he unvoted; then a while later Marth voted, and then I voted. I don't think he's ever had more than 2 votes at a time. I think maybe when Refa was voting him there was more general talk that he might be scum but it was pretty ED1 stuff. So I don't really think it's correct to characterize my vote as an attempt to revive the wagon on him when there hasn't even been one in the first place. @Prims/Refa- my lynch priority would go Sully > Ken/Shinori probably. I do think Ken's reactions to people asking him to contribute, and what Prims said basically, is suspicious, but I think the bits about him purposely avoiding the thread as scum are a stretch. While that's possible, it's about equally possible that he just lost interest. I actually thought Shinori had posted stuff more recently but I guess not. The listread post just has so little detail about everything except the bit on Michelaar that I don't really know what to make of it. The thing that bothers me most about his play as a whole is just that he says he's skimming while playing games, which fits given how his posts have been, but he's been using most of his limited time to defend himself rather than look for scum in more detail? I'm not sure about Bartozio; I was townreading him slightly around the time I was scumreading Marth but he's dropped off the radar since then. It may just be a similar thing as Baldrick and Prims where his main scumread being AWOL is causing him to lurk slightly while waiting for them to return. Need to read his later posts again.

something else to add to the bit responding to kirsche- both him and Refa have said that my posts about Sully seem more about just pointing things he's doing wrong or badly vs trying to find scum intent and it's frustrating because I don't understand how the things I'm pointing out that he's doing aren't me showing scum intent on his part. He's ignoring a large number of posts I've made (not just parts of single posts, but many entire posts) and using one post about Shinori to say I'm waffling in general, and no posts at all as evidence to show that I don't have any reads. How do you guys not find this scummy? thirdly, Via I don't actually have a lot to say I guess that I haven't mostly already talked about in responding to Sully and kirsche. I did waffle on Shinori in that one post, but it was more so waffling about one particular part of his play (whether or not his outburst was scummy) as opposed to his alignment as a whole. The rest of the post was me taking back/apologizing for one reason for finding him scummy (because I had earlier agreed with Bart's reasoning for his vote) since I hadn't properly vetted Bart's post before agreeing with it, and being misread clearly bothered Shinori. I do still think he's suspicious (I'll expand on this in my upcoming posts). cut by Refa, answers coming in next post

next, kirsche It's not that scum can't fake townreads; it's that they don't really have much of an incentive to do so (beyond to blend in since scumreading everyone would be suspicious) because it makes it harder to justify voting those people later on. This is especially the case if you're townreading and defending people who could easily be lynched, as Marth was, except for the bit on Baldrick. Add to that that my read on Marth was largely lazy scum and I realized that him townreading lots of people isn't really consistent with that. This is also partially a meta thing; I don't have time to go read past games to link posts for you but I think Marth is more likely to defend people as town than scum. Also, Marth made a ton of votes between my vote against him and my next post or two where I unvoted him; I think more than he'd made in the game total to that point. Those posts gave me more townvibes than scumvibes, so even if it was a relatively quick unvote time-wise, it wasn't a quick unvote post-wise. I did say originally Ken/Shinori/Baldrick, but the posts that I found most objectionable from Sully were all after that. I didn't really see the point of voting Ken when he already had a bunch of votes and there was nothing for me to add since he hadn't posted for so long. I almost voted Shinori but I decided Sully was worse. Also, while I'm still not sure about Baldrick there wasn't anything concrete that made me think he was scummy so I didn't feel like voting him either. As for the bit about my vote on Sully, yes, it's true that a large part of his case was about Shinori's reaction and I guess I should have made a qualifier about that. And yes, a large part of Shinori's content after his initial vote on me was defending himself. But the part about Shinori not having any reads really stuck out to me because it was super similar to what he said about me and in both cases was making this overarching statement about us that wasn't true. And the common thread between us was that we both weren't voting, so it seems to me that he was just using that as the sole basis for making that claim as opposed to actually off our posts.

gonna respond to cases one by one here, in order they were posted, so it's gonna be a string of posts defending myself first and then I'll give my thoughts on the posts made by other people in the past few pages @Sully- Firstly, you don't mention that I was scumreading Marth for almost half the phase, which is again part of what makes me think that you're willfully ignoring parts of my posts because not only did I have several posts talking about scumreading Marth (here, here, here), I had another exchange of posts with Prims and Shinori talking about them also missing my scumread on Marth (here, here). Fair enough on the difference between active lurking as scum vs being completely not present, and different standards for me as an experienced player vs Ken. I just don't understand how it's possible to read my posts and come away with the opinion that I'm doing the former or that I'm not making unique contributions when I've been the first person to (seriously) vote both Mack and Marth. I also have no idea what you're talking about when you say I'm not taking sides; I haven't been waffling on anyone except Shinori. That's one post about one person, you can't use that to extrapolate an opinion about my entire play. Can you give more than one example of me waffling on someone? This is the other part of what I dislike about your vote on me- it makes sweeping generalizations about my play while not giving any concrete examples. The entire bit about me being scummy for voting you because you're new is bad because you never used this line of reasoning about the other experienced people voting you. Why is it suspicious for me specifically to be calling you scummy vs them? Not to mention, if I just wanted to score an easy lynch against a new player I could have voted you way earlier near the beginning of the phase when Refa was pushing you. I said at that time that you not having reads that early into the game wasn't suspicious; my vote on you is based on your play later into the phase once you started posting more content. It's not that what you said about Ken is wrong, it's just that it's super obvious and doesn't need to be restated. If people have weak reads they're more likely to be scum and if they have good reads they're more likely to be town, regardless of the context. That's a given.

I think Baldrick was just making a joke rather than trying to fake a particular role. @Refa- I get what you mean but I don't really know what else to say? I don't think it's an issue of Sully just being "wrong" because I don't think it's a subjective thing and we're interpreting it differently. It's one thing to say that my logic is bad or whatever, but I don't see how you could read my posts and come out with the conclusion that I don't have reads or that I'm not making unique points. It's not just missing one or two posts like with the Marth thing, he would have had to miss half my posts. It just seems like trying to make stuff up to me. Sully, you've posted a bunch of times since then and haven't really said anything about my case on you or my question about your Shinori case.

I try to avoid using this word but basically it feels like Sully is misrepresenting both mine and Shinori's play in arguing that we don't have content, and his reasons for scumreading and townreading people aren't consistent. I think both those things are more likely to come from scum. I'm okay with the Ken lynch and will vote there if we need more votes, but I think given that he hasn't played a lot of games, him losing interest is at least as plausible a reason for him not posting for a while as him wanting the wagon on him to die out, so I think the length of time since he last posted isn't that important. I hadn't actually realized that so much of the game had passed though; I thought we were closer to 36 hours in than 48 hours in. @SB- I'm voting Sully

I think I'm going to go with this actually: ##Vote: Sully His last few posts make me uncomfortable because it feels like he's just hopping around pressuring people who don't have votes down at the moment or haven't posted in a while and taking that to accuse them of not contributing- namely he accuses both me and Shinori of having contributed little or having no reads when I don't think that's true. It also doesn't mesh with his reason for not being worried about Ken, which is that scum would be aware of not having reads and fix that. The other bit about Ken is also kind of meaningless: "if Ken's next post is bad I'll think he's scum and if Ken's next post is good I'll think he's town". No shit? Plus, the explanation for the initial Shinori vote here is wack. What does your opinion of the alignment of the people who voted Shinori before you have to do with why you find him suspicious? I considered voting Ken but it's been a while since he's posted so I'd like him to come back first. @kirsche/Refa- Mack's Shinori vote didn't really play any role in my decision to unvote him. I didn't delete any reasoning for why I found him town either; I deleted stuff that frustrated me about his play that he then fixed when he cut me. My original post read something like "I don't feel like lynching Mack anymore but it's frustrating that he's still voting Michelaar for bad reasons" and when he cut me with the change to Shinori I replaced it with "I don't feel like lynching Mack anymore; I had something that bothered me with him here before but the Shinori vote is fine I guess". I suppose my original post just didn't really have reasoning for why I didn't feel like lynching Mack anymore, but it was more related to how he responded to the votes on him by not overreacting to them; his tone seemed more likely to be town. I also thought that him admitting the cases against him were good was more likely to be town because I thought scum would be more aggressive in their defence of themselves. I also think that you guys are being a bit unfair regarding why he chose to vote Shinori on his wagon over me or Refa. "I just think Refa's attitude is town" is valid given the context. If somebody asked me my opinion on some of my townreads I'd probably say the same? He also doesn't townread Sully so much as say he's not sure about Sully. I also don't think I'm defending Shinori. I just waffled a bit on whether or not I found the vehemence of his response to the votes against him scummy or not. Considering it relatively null at the moment. I still think Via's vote against Bartozio is bad; I just liked his other play more than Marth's other play so I wasn't as concerned about his slot overall.

Shinori's post kind of reads like scum getting mad about people voting him for reasons he interprets as shitty but also I was just mad at people for voting me due to not reading my posts properly last night so idk. Plus Shinori is just more reactionary to stuff like this regardless of alignment. I think I originally did interpret Shinori's bit about not liking my initial vote as not liking my initial Marth vote as opposed to not liking my initial vote of the game on Mack, but then when I read Bartozio's vote I didn't go back to reread Shinori's post and just assumed Bartozio was correct about that. But it does bother me that Shinori jumps to talking about poor logic and what not when the most likely thing is just people misreading what Shinori meant.

unfortunately for you guys I have a presentation and report due this evening that I need to finish and practice and a problem set due tomorrow morning that I haven't even started so the rereading might be a while

##Unvote meh screw it I'm not feeling this anymore; I feel that scum Marth doesn't look for reasons to townread people. Also I misread some of the stuff about Sully and the switch in opinion has more to it than I thought initially. debating between voting Ken and Shinori but I also need to reread Baldrick. His first few posts were good but the ones on the past few pages have seemed shallow. His reasoning for maintaining the Ken vote as his strongest scumread feels weak as well because I think there are better reasons to scumread Ken than just because Ken's not giving reads. Baldrick, what's the reasoning behind the ordering of your scumreads?

I never said that my earlier assumption about your behaviour was wrong; I don't know what you mean by that. I said that your vote had more to it than I realized, but it doesn't change the vote not being good? Harping on someone for sheeping just out of RVS is dumb, especially since as Prims pointed out, you would have been doing it too. Where am I picking on semantics? The switch on Sully from being set up for lynchbait to being scum based on the Shinori vote feels weird to me. Why is that worse than your reasons for townreading him? I have more to say but I'll let Sully respond first. I do agree with your assessment of the Mich/Bart votes on Shinori though. However, what bothers me most about Shinori isn't that he switched votes to me but his reasons for scumreading me. Even if he missed my first post about Marth or didn't interpret it as suspicion like Prims, he made the same claims about not pushing my reads about my play as a whole, which is untrue given that half of them to that point were about Mack. Also, I post more often, which naturally means that not all of my posts are going to be about my scumreads. And the rest of the reasons for suspecting me are more wack, as I covered in my initial response to him. baldrick, why is Ken's refusal to give reads scummy and not just being new? bartozio, do you still think Ken is scummy?

I don't fully understand the reason for your Shinori read, Michelaar. If his initial vote was without good reasons then why is it scummy for him to switch his vote away from there?

I'm still kind of confused by what you mean but whatever I guess in reality Marth was voting for both Reasons A and B, but the thing that I dislike about the "bartozio was just sheeping" case (Reason B) is that it's harping on barely-out-of-RVS stuff while ignoring later stuff, although this is more an issue with Marth still keeping his vote there rather than an issue with the initial vote. This is also a problem with Via's Bartozio vote but he has other stuff.

also, what do you mean by bad faith?

That post about Marth does talk directly about the wording he uses in his initial Bartozio vote, about how he didn't like Bartozio's wording in his Ken vote. The second sentence, about how it seemed like he was voting due to Bartozio's wagon position was an extrapolation on my part, yes, but given that Marth says the same thing later on when he's expanding on his vote, I interpreted his case correctly even if he hadn't worded it that way at the beginning. So I don't think I'm putting words in his mouth in any way. Also, lazy is a negative adjective so if I was using it to describe lazy town I would have said that specifically. I also don't agree that scum would construct cases differently. Scum make lazy cases all the time, especially ones that are more formulaic like wagon position stuff because it's an easy way to generate content.

what are you guys talking about I clearly talked about Marth long before I voted him and before I said he was one of my suspicions in my post talking about Ken. Did you guys both just miss this post?

I said on the first post of page 3 that I wanted Marth to explain more about why he didn't like Bartozio's wording, and that I thought his Bartozio vote was lazy, and then I had a string of posts not mentioning Marth much because he hadn't posted in that time. Then he made a couple posts talking about it more and I changed my vote to him in my next post. Also, it seems to me that a significant portion of why you don't like my case against Marth is just that you disagree with me, except you call out kirsche for not having much to his vote beyond just disagreeing with me (side note: I don't think that's true). Another part of your case is that I'm not pushing my suspicions, except most of my posts other than a few talking about Sully/Ken where I was waiting for people to respond to me are directly questioning people or making cases against them. And the other part of your case is that I'm playing similar to how you played in a game where you were town???

The tone of Mack's last few posts defending himself felt town to me, because like you said he didn't overreact to pressure against him, which I felt he did to Prims's question to him (but apparently that was a joke). I was going to switch votes from him to Marth anyways, I was just going to do that with a bit saying that it didn't make sense for him to stick to Michelaar as a prodvote when there were people who'd posted more recently than him who also didn't have a lot of content to pressure vote. I deleted that when he posted and replaced that with "his Shinori vote is fine I guess", which was unrelated to me not feeling he was scum anymore. Maybe that's why the post felt unemotional to you, idk. Marth's Bartozio vote just feels super easy to me, like "oh vote the last person on the biggest wagon". He added the bit about Bartozio being disinterested later and I feel like that's a stretch. He's ignoring that Bartozio was engaging with Refa trying to convince him why Ken not giving content was worse than Sully not giving content, and Bartozio's other points in that post about Mack for example, and acting as if all Bartozio has done is post a sheep vote.

I was checking the thread every 10 minutes to avoid working and nobody was posting and then I started working and you guys posted like a billion times you guys suck I'm not really feeling mack is scum anymore. I had a blurb about how the Michelaar vote was still bad but the Shinori vote just now is fine I guess. ##Unvote, ##Vote: Marth I mentioned earlier that I wasn't a fan of the Bartozio vote; Prims explained in more detail my issues with it. I also don't really like the explanation for it, because wagons build up quickly at the end of RVS all the time since there isn't as much material to vote for. Just being #2 or #4 on a wagon doesn't inherently make sheeping better or worse. His last post also rubs me wrong with how he brings up Bartozio's mislynch history while still voting him, and then talking randomly about liking Baldrick's posts and then asking him for this opinions @via- the baldrick stuff wasn't serious

well I thought the initial post was a joke but the second post responding to Prims didn't read like a joke to me, is what I meant Ken cases are good because the response to Marth is super reactionary given that Marth wasn't even voting Ken or anything, just asking him a question, and he also wasn't even the only person to ask that type of question in the thread. The only thing that gives me pause is that Marth is one of the other people I find suspicious and the interaction doesn't read like buddies.

I'll... accept that the Prims thing was a joke even though it didn't really read like one, but I don't really get your Michelaar vote. Michelaar said in his post that it was because Shinori hadn't posted yet (which isn't a great reason but it was still borderline RVS). What's your opinion on Sully, Ken, etc.?

Idk about the Sully case; I disagree with the premise that newbscum are more likely than newbtown to do the 'just gonna hang on and wait for a while' thing. I also dont see a big distinction between that and not being bothered by anyone much. The former is just a wordy way of expressing the latter. Sully, being late is just being late. It's not alignment indicative.

Yeah I'll echo Refa in asking what exactly about Bartozio's wording Marth doesnt like, since the wording seems fairly normal to me. It seems more like he's just voting due to Bart's position on the wagon more than anything, which I feel is lazy. I initially voted for Prims because he talked about Sully more than he talked about Marth despite voting for Marth, which I thought was a bit weird, and I had an RVS vote down at the time. But it wasnt a big thing. Mack hasnt been scum before I think. His post reads like someone getting a bit nervous under pressure to me, even if it isnt serious pressure.

actually I totally missed mack's post above mine and it's more worthy of a vote although I still want Prims to answer my question #bbmlevelreadingskills ##Unvote, ##Vote: Mack The vote is either a gut feeling (based on what exactly, his confirmation post???) or a random/joke vote, but it can't be both. It kind of reads like backpedaling

##Unvote, ##Vote: Prims why is Marth worse than Sully?