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I was also kind of surprised by the Prims kill but I think another possibility is that the mafia thought he had a power role since he was so vehemently against claiming at the end of the day 1. @Baldrick- active lurking is posting stuff in the thread while not giving opinions. not posting at all is just being inactive, even if they are active elsewhere in the forum. Do you actually find mack scummy? Even now you're not saying that you do, just that they could be buddies. You haven't mentioned him except indirectly while pushing Shinori/Marth since early on and you didn't mention him when talking about who to vote when switching away from Gaius after he subbed in. honestly feels like you just forgot about Mack entirely. Wanting to let Marth push him because you didn't know Mack well sounds like an excuse because you didn't know Ken either and he was your main scumread. @Marth- too lazy to re-type my Shinori stuff from last phase but I think his votes have been quite weak, especially the Bartozio one. I also felt that at parts he was prioritizing defending himself over scumhunting when he was busy.

@Sully- most likely scum have a Janitor, which is a role that allows them to hide flips of people they kill. It's almost always limited use, probably 1x given the size of the game.

I think Shinori is tentatively my #2 scumread over Sully atm. I think Baldrick and Shinori being buddies is quite conceivable given Baldrick never votes Shinori despite pushing him for a significant amount of time until a point in the game where it was pointless. The bit about Marth's actions having more definite scum intent over Shinori is also under-explained IMO

anyways after rereading the thread in the last 30 minutes before deadline all night, I have come to: ##Vote: Baldrick so I mentioned last phase why I thought Baldrick was the worst votepark offender. In hindsight this really should have stuck out to me a lot earlier but his vote on Ken is like bordering on a policy vote. He says it's purely because Ken doesn't have reads, and that he was starting to suspect Sully as well but then didn't just because Sully had reads. This isn't a great vote/line of thinking given he's talking about either first-time (Sully) or still very new (Ken) players here; it's worse as basically the sole reason to keep that vote on Ken for so long, given that he says he doesn't think Ken was overly reactionary or defensive. His posts around that time are all pretty good (for the first 24 hours or so) but then after that he has several posts where his side content during that votepark is just "I agree with X about Y" or asking other people for their opinions on someone: here and here, for example. In some cases (notably Shinori and Marth) he engages more with that person and tries to push them after agreeing with someone else's case on them (Shinori stuff is decent, Marth stuff is a bit weak), but doesn't really do that much with Mack. The other thing is that after saying Mack is in "would-lynch" territory he starts pseudo-defending him while attacking Shinori and basically doesn't say why he stops scumreading Mack at any point. So I think it was unfair of me to say that Baldrick did less than Bartozio while voteparking Ken, but to some extent I think that makes his votepark worse? He had other, better, reasons for voting Shinori but sticks to "new player didn't give reads in the first 12 hours" and doesn't switch votes to Marth until Gaius subs in. I'm also not sure why he switches votes from Marth to Shinori, his initial reason for voting Marth was that his actions had more definite scum intent. He says something about "consolidating" on Shinori even though Shinori had no votes so I don't know what that's about. What put him over the top for me though was his last post or two before deadline. The post where Baldrick re-votes Gaius's slot near phase end pings me because he says it's scummy for Gaius to try and defend the residual cases against Ken vs putting out new content, which exaggerates the amount by which Gaius was defending Ken and basically dismisses the other content on Prims and other people that Gaius had produced. This wasn't quite the swing vote (that was Refa) but basically guaranteed that it would be Gaius getting lynched. this bit also irks me though I'm not sure there's scum intent: "I have an opinion on the prims wagon but it might be better to save for postgame." also doesn't make sense because Prims was one of the leading wagons so why wouldn't he share? Even if it was shitty maybe let other people make that assessment? plus if it was so shitty that nobody else would be swayed by it, maybe he shouldn't be either?

I'd like Bartozio to also give reads before the end of the phase

mich is the real easy lynchbait though also I think early on he had a post with several reads in it and it was like the best post he's ever made so I'm more inclined to think he's town even if he hasn't done a lot since then?

I don't think that's really true if the person who subs in for the scummy slot is subbing in with like 15 hours left because a lot of the time people don't have another person to switch to so they're like "well the guy who subbed in is posting better but the previous guy still stunk so this is safer than a turbo"; basically what's happening with Gaius right now. A good example I think is SB in I want to say Fakeclaim? He subbed in for a super scummy slot and tried to at first just make posts and it didn't work, and then tried to make big roleclaim plays to avoid the lynch. That also didn't work, but that kind of go-for-broke thinking is what is more likely IMO

actually while I was typing up the Gaius VT stuff, I realized that I think based on that he's more likely to be town than Bartozio. So although I think he too is more likely to be town than not, if people are really unwilling to lynch Sully, I would rather turbo Bartozio (or Baldrick but Bartozio is more likely to get support I guess) than lynch Gaius.

I'm also not really down to lynch Gaius because of his VT claim. In general I think scum are less likely to fake VT early on in the game, but I think in this situation especially, where the odds were stacked against him, he would have tried to claim some kind of role to stop the lynch against him or get a counterclaim at least so that scum would know a role. Bartozio, mainly just looking for reads from you. In future if you don't have a lot of time to post it's always better to use it on scumhunting than defending yourself, especially considering there wasn't a lot of pressure on you.

basically it feels like Sully just kind of retracted some of the stuff based on getting a lot of flak for it but is still trying to justify reasoning with stuff like "I didn't see it as very strong because you were also talking about other people" which I don't like I think Bart isn't scum because his approach to Ken seems similar to Prims where he was re-justifying the Ken vote every time he came back to the thread, it's just that 1) he came back less often than Prims and 2) his reasons for re-justifying the read and his other posts in his bursts of activity weren't as good as Prims I don't think either of those are really indicative of him being scum because he has a naturally lurky playstyle, which I think has contributed to his mislynch in both NOC games at least, and he's still new so I don't expect as high a level of analysis. I think Baldrick is the worst votepark offender because I think his re-justification is the weakest (Ken just isn't posting reads) vs Bartozio's (Ken is trying to shut down discussion) or Prims's (Ken is super reactionary to pressure) and while he was waiting for Ken to return it feels like the comments he was making about Marth and Shinori were just comments vs trying to actually determine if they were scum? But, I think his later stuff after Gaius subbed in about Shinori is better than the posts Bart made since then.

eh I don't think Gaius or Prims are good lynches. Gaius's content seems decent to me although I disagree with the Shinori stuff. rereading Sully's defence again and it's just like... fine, he mentally exaggerated some stuff. then he says that he missed my Marth stuff, but... how? My point in linking all those posts is to show how many of those posts there were. Plus I was voting Marth at one point so for him to say that he didn't see it as a very strong thing on my part doesn't make any sense. The reasoning for the Prims case isn't good but I think that's a fair case for a newer player to make. this is still a good lynch

i dunno I'm not feeling this Prims lynch like I think one of the reasons his play might seem more apathetic than normal is that rather than posting consistently all the time he's making posts in small bursts so it feels like he's gone for large portions but I think he's still contributing a decent amount to the thread so yeah he doesn't have a lot of side-reads but every time he makes one of those mini-bursts he's re-justifying his Ken vote, and his reasoning for the Ken vote is better than others'. Those mini-bursts are normally also talking about other players a bit, and yeah he's not pushing them hard but I'm okay with that given that I think it's been kind of hard to get reads this day phase.

ok come on lol you've led turbolynches many times. I'm not saying you should claim right away but you don't get to call turbolynches inherently atrocious play without looking at any of the individual votes

I got cut by like ten posts fuck phoneposting Why is Prims worse than Baldrick and Bartozio for voteparking Ken? Is it just that he's held to a higher standard of play?

@kirsche- idk abojt you but I skim thr first time around to develop gut feelings and then try to justify those by reading the thread in more detail the second time. Shinori gives me a bad feeling, in a stronger way than Baldrick bc with Baldrick it's just that he's kind of lurking. With Shinori it's that I think his cases have been mostly weaker than I would expect from him. It's just that in both cases there isnt that much where I'm like 'this is actively scummy'. I wanted to let Bartozio respond to most of it first before going more into why Shinori's case is bad. The bit about Bartozio being suspicious for not having anything better to vote for than going back to Ken is bad because iirc Shinori also wasnt voting anyone at the time because he wasnt sure who to vote. Yes, Bartozio should have looked more for other stuff later but this line of attack is still kind of hypocritical. The bit about Bartozio waiting 30 mins to vote him is also really weak because pointing something out and then realizing a little bit later that it actually bothers you a lot is something pretty common that happens all the time. Shinori also mentions several times that Bartozio sheeped people while voting him and I'm pretty sure that's wrong. He did sheep on the initial Ken vote but he had separate reasons for staying on it later. I'll reread Prims once I get home but my feeling was that he had the strongest reason for parking Ken and most of why I didn't like Ken was directly based on his posts.

Sully's posts make me feel a bit better about him wrt general tone but thr overall stuff he's talking about still doesnt make sense to me but maybe I'm biased since it's about me. Phoneposting right now sorry so it's tough to go back and respond point by point. I feel like I'm mainly waiting for Gaius to come back at this point to make a decision there. I dont think Shinori's Bart case is good. The point wrt LG isnt really a contradiction; you can feel bad about lynching someone right after they sub in but still want to lynch them because their slot was scummy. I imagine that's basically what most people feel about that slot right now. I'll let Bart respond to the rest. My feeling about Shinori basically is that I just think he's scum but cant put my finger on anything in particular where I'm like 'this has scum intent' other than too much time defending himself. His cases just arent very strong.

yeah I guess Bartozio is another guy who I just assumed had posted more recently but since there have been so many posts in the past 12 hours, he hasn't actually posted since like Page 7. His opinions are all fine; there just aren't very many of them. via, if you don't think Sully is scum, there's no point to just voting him for associative reads. for one thing even if he flips town that won't mean that someone on his wagon has to be scum

You have to realize how frustrating this is to me lol. What makes you so sure he's town? All new players are an easy mislynch, relatively anyways. Is there anything about Sully in particular that would make him easy for scum to frame?

ok I missed that part where he also said the same thing about you so it's less actively scummy due to not targeting me specifically with it, but the logic as a whole is still bad because it begins with the premise that people are more likely to be scum just for voting him

I guess a bit more about Sully because he's like a top townread apparently. Sully's play doesn't sit right with me because it just doesn't feel like it should for a newbtown. At the start of the game he was sort of passive and willing to hang around and wait back, which I thought was fairly in line with a new player and so when people were first a bit suspicious of him I didn't really see it. But since then he's become a lot more aggressive and that kind of shift just sits wrong with me? I suppose this change in play is what's causing people to be townreading him more, but it's done the opposite for me. I'm not really sure because I don't think anybody's given an explanation for why they think Sully is town except kirsche, but that consists mostly of a silly confirmation post thing and them agreeing on reads. So I went looking for more concrete scummy things he'd done even if they weren't exact explanations for the shift in his play but maybe those things just seem more like bad play things to you guys rather than scummy things? I'd really like more detail here from Prims, Via, and kirsche in specific. Baldrick, what do you think of Marth's later play starting with the Sully vote? okay I've been reading/making mafia posts non-stop for almost three hours so I'm going to take a break.

one more thing @Via- I think you're overestimating the amount of votes on Sully. I don't think there's ever even been an actual wagon on him. Refa voted him at the start of the game and then he unvoted; then a while later Marth voted, and then I voted. I don't think he's ever had more than 2 votes at a time. I think maybe when Refa was voting him there was more general talk that he might be scum but it was pretty ED1 stuff. So I don't really think it's correct to characterize my vote as an attempt to revive the wagon on him when there hasn't even been one in the first place. @Prims/Refa- my lynch priority would go Sully > Ken/Shinori probably. I do think Ken's reactions to people asking him to contribute, and what Prims said basically, is suspicious, but I think the bits about him purposely avoiding the thread as scum are a stretch. While that's possible, it's about equally possible that he just lost interest. I actually thought Shinori had posted stuff more recently but I guess not. The listread post just has so little detail about everything except the bit on Michelaar that I don't really know what to make of it. The thing that bothers me most about his play as a whole is just that he says he's skimming while playing games, which fits given how his posts have been, but he's been using most of his limited time to defend himself rather than look for scum in more detail? I'm not sure about Bartozio; I was townreading him slightly around the time I was scumreading Marth but he's dropped off the radar since then. It may just be a similar thing as Baldrick and Prims where his main scumread being AWOL is causing him to lurk slightly while waiting for them to return. Need to read his later posts again.

something else to add to the bit responding to kirsche- both him and Refa have said that my posts about Sully seem more about just pointing things he's doing wrong or badly vs trying to find scum intent and it's frustrating because I don't understand how the things I'm pointing out that he's doing aren't me showing scum intent on his part. He's ignoring a large number of posts I've made (not just parts of single posts, but many entire posts) and using one post about Shinori to say I'm waffling in general, and no posts at all as evidence to show that I don't have any reads. How do you guys not find this scummy? thirdly, Via I don't actually have a lot to say I guess that I haven't mostly already talked about in responding to Sully and kirsche. I did waffle on Shinori in that one post, but it was more so waffling about one particular part of his play (whether or not his outburst was scummy) as opposed to his alignment as a whole. The rest of the post was me taking back/apologizing for one reason for finding him scummy (because I had earlier agreed with Bart's reasoning for his vote) since I hadn't properly vetted Bart's post before agreeing with it, and being misread clearly bothered Shinori. I do still think he's suspicious (I'll expand on this in my upcoming posts). cut by Refa, answers coming in next post

next, kirsche It's not that scum can't fake townreads; it's that they don't really have much of an incentive to do so (beyond to blend in since scumreading everyone would be suspicious) because it makes it harder to justify voting those people later on. This is especially the case if you're townreading and defending people who could easily be lynched, as Marth was, except for the bit on Baldrick. Add to that that my read on Marth was largely lazy scum and I realized that him townreading lots of people isn't really consistent with that. This is also partially a meta thing; I don't have time to go read past games to link posts for you but I think Marth is more likely to defend people as town than scum. Also, Marth made a ton of votes between my vote against him and my next post or two where I unvoted him; I think more than he'd made in the game total to that point. Those posts gave me more townvibes than scumvibes, so even if it was a relatively quick unvote time-wise, it wasn't a quick unvote post-wise. I did say originally Ken/Shinori/Baldrick, but the posts that I found most objectionable from Sully were all after that. I didn't really see the point of voting Ken when he already had a bunch of votes and there was nothing for me to add since he hadn't posted for so long. I almost voted Shinori but I decided Sully was worse. Also, while I'm still not sure about Baldrick there wasn't anything concrete that made me think he was scummy so I didn't feel like voting him either. As for the bit about my vote on Sully, yes, it's true that a large part of his case was about Shinori's reaction and I guess I should have made a qualifier about that. And yes, a large part of Shinori's content after his initial vote on me was defending himself. But the part about Shinori not having any reads really stuck out to me because it was super similar to what he said about me and in both cases was making this overarching statement about us that wasn't true. And the common thread between us was that we both weren't voting, so it seems to me that he was just using that as the sole basis for making that claim as opposed to actually off our posts.

gonna respond to cases one by one here, in order they were posted, so it's gonna be a string of posts defending myself first and then I'll give my thoughts on the posts made by other people in the past few pages @Sully- Firstly, you don't mention that I was scumreading Marth for almost half the phase, which is again part of what makes me think that you're willfully ignoring parts of my posts because not only did I have several posts talking about scumreading Marth (here, here, here), I had another exchange of posts with Prims and Shinori talking about them also missing my scumread on Marth (here, here). Fair enough on the difference between active lurking as scum vs being completely not present, and different standards for me as an experienced player vs Ken. I just don't understand how it's possible to read my posts and come away with the opinion that I'm doing the former or that I'm not making unique contributions when I've been the first person to (seriously) vote both Mack and Marth. I also have no idea what you're talking about when you say I'm not taking sides; I haven't been waffling on anyone except Shinori. That's one post about one person, you can't use that to extrapolate an opinion about my entire play. Can you give more than one example of me waffling on someone? This is the other part of what I dislike about your vote on me- it makes sweeping generalizations about my play while not giving any concrete examples. The entire bit about me being scummy for voting you because you're new is bad because you never used this line of reasoning about the other experienced people voting you. Why is it suspicious for me specifically to be calling you scummy vs them? Not to mention, if I just wanted to score an easy lynch against a new player I could have voted you way earlier near the beginning of the phase when Refa was pushing you. I said at that time that you not having reads that early into the game wasn't suspicious; my vote on you is based on your play later into the phase once you started posting more content. It's not that what you said about Ken is wrong, it's just that it's super obvious and doesn't need to be restated. If people have weak reads they're more likely to be scum and if they have good reads they're more likely to be town, regardless of the context. That's a given.

I think Baldrick was just making a joke rather than trying to fake a particular role. @Refa- I get what you mean but I don't really know what else to say? I don't think it's an issue of Sully just being "wrong" because I don't think it's a subjective thing and we're interpreting it differently. It's one thing to say that my logic is bad or whatever, but I don't see how you could read my posts and come out with the conclusion that I don't have reads or that I'm not making unique points. It's not just missing one or two posts like with the Marth thing, he would have had to miss half my posts. It just seems like trying to make stuff up to me. Sully, you've posted a bunch of times since then and haven't really said anything about my case on you or my question about your Shinori case.