BBM

sigh courier. it could easily be a mod addition to a role for an easy fake, but I see no scum motive for Pika to not vote Michelaar right now to tie the wagons that being said I also don't particularly want to lynch Michelaar either is anyone else around?

Votals pika_pika42 (5): Magnificence Incarnate, Prims, Michelaar, BBM, Refa Michelaar (4): Oboro-garasu, Green Poet, Bartozio, Junk Faerie Knight (2): Elieson, pika_pika42 Mackc2 (1): Faerie Knight Elieson (1): Mackc2 Not voting (0) 39 minutes left in the phase?

I went through and read some of the listposts and I feel like Mack's points don't really make sense? The one on Marth is especially bizarre because Marth is one of the biggest tunnelers in the game right now so I can't see how someone could come to the opinion that he's giving opinions on everyone as opposed to specifically going after one person. The bit on Prims about "may as well kill them if they're not useful" seems odd to mention specifically in relation to Prims when I know off the top of my head GP and FK said similar things and I'm sure other people did too. The bit about Junko is also weird because 1) scum!Junko could still defend both town!Elie and town!FK; scum don't say every non-scum person is scum and every scum person is town or it would be pretty obvious who the other scum were if they ever died, 2) he thinks Elie is suspicious so even if he does believe that scum!Junko wouldn't defend town!Elie, so what, Junko and Elie being scum together makes sense through his reads. what are the votals?

Pika, you should claim your role. There are less than 2 hours in the phase. this goes to you, but also, Mack, Michelaar, and Bartozio- your town and nullreads aren't really important unless they're being pressured by other people. Writing up reads on them is a waste of everyone's time including yours. Spend more time on the people you actually find suspicious and try to dig deeper on them as opposed to just giving one or two lines on everybody. also your logic is wrong because from your perspective, you know you're town and only think Michelaar is town, so the chances of a townie getting lynched go down if Michelaar gets lynched as opposed to you. FK, do you think I'm suspicious? You keep asking other people about their reads on me and whether what I did is bad, and one of the most important parts of your content is the way someone voted me, but you still haven't given a single opinion on me yourself. Bartozio, how much mafia have you played before?

@mack- yes, Magnificence Incarnate is Marth, sorry I guess we should have made that clear. Oboro-Garasu is Proto and Sunwoo (one of the mods) is Boron. @marth- sorry I missed the post where you talked about how you were damned either way wrt Junko. I don't think you're correctly characterizing Junko's response. What he's saying is that all the points you made about the holes in his case against me were things he was already admitting from the beginning, yet you made them out to be things you were pointing out for the first time. I think it's fair of you to point out that junko doesn't have a lot of suspicions and has been focusing pretty narrowly, but it sort of feels like both of you are using the other person not having a lot of content as content. with regards to not saying anything about michelaar- it doesn't benefit town to not talk about it either. like I said to mack, we need everyone to have interactions and give opinions about the person being lynched so that we have more info the next day, and not saying anything about mack makes you harder to read. so not tying yourself to the flip does have anti-town motive. all that being said l feel like your tone and method of defending yourself over the past page or so has been pretty good so I'm willing to grant that it was just bad play on that occasion as opposed to purposely trying to avoid leaving ties to the lynch. anyways I'll try to be back before deadline but I'm staying up kind of late here so I'm not sure I'll have time to catch up on the pre-deadline flurry of posts and contribute much. I should have probably lobbied for this before the game started but I think it's dumb that the rules forbid using the extension on D1 even though that's normally when people need it the most.

I missed two lines at the bottom of one of your posts, wow, you must feel really vindicated in your opinion that nobody is reading anything you write your antagonism is alignment-indicative because it doesn't benefit you to piss me off as scum when you have two votes on you and I have no votes, and I'm the main person leading your wagon. what frustrates me is that this discussion right now between us is basically the epitome of "hit a wall with nowhere to go" yet you want to continue it when (as far as I can tell) you don't think that I'm suspicious or "unusual". yet you tried to shut down the conversation with elie prematurely even though there were things he did that did strike you as unusual, even if you didn't think it was bad enough to find suspicious. why? not to mention that we're both pissed off at each other and continuing the discussion is just going to worsen both our moods. I skipped dinner to argue with you online so I'd just like to finish my work and sleep now, thanks.

also, marth, what's your response to Junko's reply to your case on him? @junko- it's not just that Pika was waffling but also that he avoided taking stances on account of not being comfortable enough in anything but then was confident enough to vote Prims right out of RVS several pages earlier. it reads more like not wanting to push anything than not knowing what to push.

@mack- you're correct that day 1 lynches are unlikely to hit scum, but if we lynch nobody on day 1, then we enter day 2 with basically no new information compared to day 1, except the mafia gets a kill and there's one less townie around. You have no guarantee that a Cop exists, and even if they do, odds are they won't get a guilty inspection on N1. Or, they could die. Whereas if we lynch someone, even if we lynch wrongly, we can analyze the way everybody else in the thread interacted with them and get a better understanding of their alignment relative to the alignment of the dead person. @FK- mack isn't going to get lynched, probably. who are you going to consolidate on and why?

dks;jghas[fglaskdmgfn;aolzsugdha]rigsh that was my reasoning for why your logic is dumb. I don't give a damn whether or not you understood it when it matters more that I understood it. If you're really incapable of grasping that logic, too bad for you. WE USE WORDS TO COMMUNICATE BECAUSE THEY HAVE AGREED UPON DEFINITIONS SO THAT WE UNDERSTAND WHAT THE OTHER PERSON IS TRYING TO SAY. YOU'RE HAVING TO REPEAT THE SAME THINGS OVER AND OVER BECAUSE YOU'RE USING WORDS IN A DIFFERENT WAY THAN OTHER PEOPLE. HOW IS THIS SO HARD TO UNDERSTAND. I think I'm holding this vote more because FK is an idiot at this point. I don't think scum would be this antagonistic. ##Unvote, ##Vote: Pika

this is the townslip post, where Michelaar says he thought there was a N0. It's pretty easily fakeable as a townslip but I don't think Michelaar would fake townslips as scum, and I don't think he's scum anyways. @FK- I just don't understand why you're like "Elie did this bad thing that doesn't make sense but that's only unusual and not scummy". why isn't it scummy? if according to you, elie is doing something unusual and refusing to back away from it, why are you just like "eh let's stop this discussion" as opposed to trying to figure out more about his alignment??? you just keep saying "I found him unusual and not scummy". this is also related to why you having only one suspicion is bad- yes, people don't have a lot of suspicions on D1, which is why they try to get more suspicions, and it doesn't seem like you're trying. also, mafia is a game where communication is very important, so like, do you not understand where using the term that means "Finger of Suspicion" to indicate people whom you don't even find suspicious is bad? I don't know right now if you're just making this up on the spot or you actually had no idea what FoS meant. I don't remember who but someone was like "I don't see why FK would post wallposts defending himself as scum" but defending yourself as opposed to trying to find scum is exactly what scum do with their wallposts. they're concerned about surviving, not finding scum. @michelaar- Some people are better at mimicing their town play than others, but town and mafia have different motivations and therefore play differently. that's what NOC is predicated on. If people didn't play differently as town vs mafia how else would we find out the mafia?

I'll be around for the last hour or so before phase end probably why are you not interested in FK as a lynch? I'm okay with consolidating on Pika and Marth but nobody is actually voting Marth so I don't know how many people are finding him their top scumread?

@marth- You cut out this post which came first and is arguing against FK: but yeah, okay on Bartozio, my opinion on this is probably being shaped more by the FK thing. Like Junko I forgot that Shinori had incorrectly posted deadline time so that's fine as to why those posts were lacking in detail. but yeah, also, what Prims just said about not talking about Michelaar making even less sense if you thought there were only a few hours to deadline. I also don't really think your junko case makes sense because yes, Junko has posted a lot more pressuring me, but the whole time he was like "I'm not that confident in this" and he's said several times that he doesn't find me as scummy. What's your response to Junko's post defending himself? how much time is left in the phase? I didn't realize we had to consolidate already

FK- Michelaar/Bartozio were also stacking votes on Proto for literally no reason? did you read their votes? you're right that RVS hadn't ended quite as clearly by then but still what mack did then is not as big a deal as you're making it out to be. the point of a FoS (as I see it) is to indicate secondary suspicions. you only have one vote and you can't use it on everyone so it's like a way of telling people that you would vote them if you had another vote. there's nothing preventing you from saying the same stuff as other people, it's just not really a contribution. what exactly are you disputing here when I say you don't have many suspicions? Do you have other suspicions? what are plausible explanations for elie doing something "unusual" and how are they related to his alignment? I don't understand what's so complicated about this lol. I switched votes to you because I thought you were more suspicious than Proto, and there was no point to waiting for Proto to respond just for the sake of doing so. Just because the case wasn't bad when I made it right out of RVS doesn't mean it was worth sticking to 24 hours later. On Day 1 the information you have is growing exponentially so my read on Proto from 24 hours ago was weaker than my reads on other people because it was based on pretty much only one or two posts early on. @marth- waffling is maybe not the right term. what I mean is- it's not that you have to like everything a townread does, but then what's the point of talking about the bad stuff they do? it gives more insight into your thought process sure, but at the end of the day it's content that doesn't support your reads so it's not actually pushing any viewpoint or doing anything. this is kind of semantic but what also bothers me is the way in which you described the two sides for/against Bartozio and FK. it's like... normally when people are qualifying their townreads they'll say "yeah he did some bad stuff but this is why he's town anyways". it was more like you were simultaneously pushing both perspectives while saying they were town?

Leaning towards switching votes to Marth but I'll wait until his next post with more opinions. His posts attacking FK and then saying right after that FK is town are pretty bad and taking both sides of an argument in the same way as the bit on Bartozio. Proto's post is good.

(post written before giant Proto wall of text that I have not yet read) i'm going to drop the not giving an explanation thing. I feel like FK didn't communicate in his wording what he actually meant but w.e FoS literally stands for "finger of suspicion" so if you're using it for people whom you think are "not actually suspicious yet" I don't know what to say. My point is that I don't possibly see how you could find Elie's first posts attacking you "unusual", and then see little value in continuing pressure against him when his later posts just double down on all his logic. that's what makes me think your FoS was retaliatory. idk what part of your post I ignored? I think your other content is lackluster because other than the Pika meta, it was regurgitating stuff other people had said (in the case of Michelaar) or non-noncommittally agreeing with Refa about GP. That's not really adding a lot of value. It also doesn't seem like you have any suspicions other than Mack. ...where did I say I thought my Proto case was bad? It was fine for the time at which I made it, but a bunch happened since then that's more important than what Proto did right out of RVS. I normally prefer to not change votes until I get some kind of response but I didn't want to wait around longer for Proto when he's not generally a very active poster. Using my vote against currently active posters is more important.

idk maybe I'm having trouble connecting my gut feelings about people to their posts? I agree with Refa's case against GP but I still think her tone is townier than FK's. I could have voted Pika but I felt that voting FK would get me a better read on him. let me word it this way, FK, would you still vote Mack based solely on his Elie vote and subsequent posts? I reread some of Marth's last posts and junko's case is good; would sheep. Marth's Pika vote is mostly fine* but everything else is pretty waffly and doesn't actually say much or give examples of what he's talking about. what part of junko's case against me is grasping straws? the Bartozio bit is waffly and doesn't explain what was bad about his votes or what's specifically townie about considering thought process when I think everybody is trying to do that. when he does get more specific, it doesn't make a whole lot of sense- in particular, the reasoning for townreading Mack seems pretty forced to me. *I don't understand the last bit about Pika being opportunistic. If he was being opportunistic why wouldn't he jump on the Michelaar wagon? His Prims vote wasn't really opportunistic either since at the time only I was voting him and he had different reasoning from me too. I'd probably go FK/Marth > Pika atm. Also, the latest votals from Shinori have Marth voting for both Junko and Pika, and are missing Pika (he's voting nobody)

uh I feel that bolded part basically implies that he doesn't deserve reasoning because of how bad his post was??? I guess I don't know how well Elie knows you but how you act outside of mafia shouldn't necessarily be the same as how you act inside mafia. you're not trying to make a argument with every post outside of mafia. I agree with Prims that Elie purposely ignoring the pictures is dumb but he wasn't really doing that as much at the time you FoSed him. In fact I'd say that he became more stubborn after you FoSed him but your pressure against him actually decreased- you asking him to vote with you is more like you trying to get him on your side. That's why the initial FoS doesn't seem legitimate to me. Do you currently think Elie is suspicious? I meant that your content other than mack and elie was just saying "michelaar and pika just play this way and they're new". tbf I reread that post and you didn't actually call either of them new, but I think the overall point about your other content being lackluster stands. it feels pretty filler to me. Me understanding the cases doesn't mean I agree with them. fwiw though I don't actually want to lynch Proto that much right now, I kept the vote on him for a while because I was just waiting for him to respond to it before switching, but meh I waited long enough. @prims- what I was saying is that FK's bit about Mack flailing under pressure regarding his Elie vote is fine, but the case as a whole about backpedaling and not doing anything until pressured is still connected to the vote on me which I think was obviously a joke. How did you read Mack's initial vote against me? also, why do you think scum michelaar talks about how he has experience on other sites. I also don't have a cogent reason for Michelaar being town other than what I've stated and I've kind of gone back and forth on it but ultimately I don't think he's scum and the amount of people including "let's just get rid of weaker players first" in their logic against him bothers me because I don't know how many of them would actually find him the scummiest without that.

eh, FK's vote on Mack was kind of bad because it was super easy when "you seem to know what you're doing" seemed to me a joke, not really because it didn't give reasoning since I think it's fairly evident that mack's vote sucked if it was serious. that being said, while I understood FK's reasoning when he voted for mack, the line in the latest post about mack's post being so bad that he doesn't even deserve to get reasoning as to why he's being voted makes no sense. The latest points about mack's progression are oka, but I feel like it's mostly still based on the first post and refusing to accept that it was a joke when that's a pretty plausible explanation. I also don't like the response to Elie's vote. The FoS on Elie feels super reactionary and feels like an attempt to shut down his vote by threat as much as actually arguing against his points. The last post feels similar with "enough of this". FK's non-mack content is pretty much just "newbies gonna newb" I'm kind of annoyed Proto hasn't responded yet but this is better atm ##Unvote, ##Vote: Faerie Knight also, "this player is bad so worst case scenario we get rid of someone who isn't contributing" is getting thrown around way too much wrt Michelaar and Mack. we probably only have like 3 mislynches, we can't afford to waste 2 of them on that. I get that the people saying this also find those guys scummy but that particular logic shouldn't influence decision making IMO.

tbh michelaar's last two posts are making me doubt my read. pika's waffling bothers me but at least he has a thought process, and mack's lack of (public) thought process is annoying but at least he has opinions. michelaar, you don't have opinions and you're not even trying to get them. You seem unable to understand why people find you scummy, but you're also not trying to analyze their votes on you in any way to see if any of them might be scum. I don't understand what you're trying to do in this game. GP, do you have a town game of michelaar's to compare his scum meta to?

of course you should consider the possibility you're wrong, but why is that like the very next thing you're doing after voting for him? your #2 source of content shouldn't be based on the assumption that your #1 source of content is wrong. Pika's last post isn't good. basically takes no stance on anything by not saying whether mack/michelaar are more likely to be town or scum, not saying which of them is worse, and not saying who on the michelaar wagon might be scum. also bothers me that there is more information now to be a bit more confident in a vote than 2 pages ago, but he was okay with voting for Prims then and not okay with voting anybody now. @pika/michelaar- just vote somebody. go with your best hunch even if you're not confident. you can change your vote easily. even just saying "eh I have a gut feeling about this person so I'm going to vote them" is better than not voting, both in terms of you getting a read on other people and in terms of other people getting a read on you.

@junko- not sure why you're drawing a comparison between you and proto? you didn't vote for me originally because you lacked confidence in your read. You should have voted me anyways - a vote isn't a vig shot - but it's different from pursuing a pressure vote over your suspicion. This post kind of feels like taking both sides of an argument to me. There's only a point to looking for scum on the wagon you're voting for if you think that somebody is bussing, but the reason GP gives for Prims maybe being scum implies a scenario of scum!Prims going for an easy vote against town!Michelaar. At best it's not useful content.

eh I was going to talk originally about how Pika's Prims vote bothered me but it was pretty early on and there wasn't a ton else at that point going on. interested to see his next post. FK's mack vote feels super easy? mack's vote on me seemed pretty obviously a joke

i'm not sure you guys will believe this but I lost my post a second time so I'm super mad and lost a ton of detail and after writing the same thing for the third time I basically stopped caring about grammar don't think michelaar was being overdefensive. he is being lazy but seems more lazytown. why would scum admit to being experienced when he'd get underestimated if everyone thought he was new? @mack- surviving is only one part of the game. by not giving reasons you're not engaging your scumreads, so you lower the chance of you being correct, and you also lower the chance of actually convincing anybody. there are way more town than scum, so if you correctly figure out one scum, get them lynched, and then get nightkilled, that's a good trade for town. @junko- my scumread on Proto is stronger than anything else I have but it's an ED1 vote; it's obviously not that strong. he did only call me "unusual", but the context implies negative unusual. nothing wrong with pressure vote ED1 but why do it when there's a better option available (IMO)? I think you guys are vastly overestimating the depth of the reason I voted for Prims lol, maybe because I've written a ton trying to explain my logic in terms of EARLY DAY 1 MAFIA THEORY when 90% of the vote was just me trying to get something going. both my initial Prims vote and me keeping the vote after (basically two separate votes) were because I thought it was better than a random jokevote. i still think the second thing with him thinking Refa was maybe 5% likely to be scum because of the picture but then only jokevoting him instead of trying to get a response is weird but I don't really see what more I'm going to get at this point. in general there's no point to saying I'm only 10% confident in a vote in RVS/just-after-RVS. That should be given, if anyone is actually confident <24h into the game they're probably scum faking it. posting this now before I lose the post again and ask for a sub on the spot but I have more thoughts

omg fuck this forum software I clicked on the notification of Refa's new post thinking it would load the post without reloading the page but I lost a post I'd been working on for like 30 minutes

Oboro-Garasu is Proto right