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So you voted Bart ed2 without having really read his posts? Sigh elie the newbscum whisperer is making me waffle again

not having interactions is the best way to avoid having scummy interactions. that's why I said your interactions with Shinori are a little suspicious. I don't remember you saying much about me in the smogon game. I a) am not locking you in to be buddies with Bart, and b) don't really think it's true that you didn't pay attention to Bart until late D2 since you began D2 by voting him. @Quote @Elieson @Magnificence Incarnate we need at least one of you to secure the lynch. I'm leaving now; hopefully will be back just before phase end if nobody else comes back and I need to switch votes to get a lynch

and to be the most honest if someone other than Marth dies then he can just tell us whom he targeted, which means I mostly wasted my time going over all those situations and possibilities. they all boil down to: marth and bart should both target one of sully/elie. if bart says someone goes somewhere, lynch either him or that person. if he says they don't go anywhere, lynch either him or the other person.

that's why Bart tracks one of Sully/Elie as well so that we know what the other person did. tbh it doesn't actually matter who Bart targets out of Sully/Elie; we can piece together tomorrow what that means with regards to which two people are guaranteed to have at least one scum between them. to be even more honest it doesn't even matter who Marth targets in the town kirsche scenario because all that really matters is who Bartozio says goes where. in the scum kirsche scenario it at least gives us a solid clear if someone other than him dies.

responses in bold inside the quote

IMO if kirsche is scum, Marth and Bartozio should both target Elie. that way if Marth dies we'll know from Bart whether it was Elie or not. If he says it's Elie then we have a 1v1 between Bart and Elie. If he says it's not Elie, or if someone other than Marth dies, Elie is clear and then we pick between Sully or Bart to lynch tomorrow. if kirsche is town it gets more murky bc it's tougher to get useful info from Bart and Marth's roles and Bart can lie to protect a buddy or bus a buddy. I would have Bart track Sully and Marth decoy Elie. If Marth dies we lynch between Bart and either Sully or Elie, depending on what Bart says that Sully did. If someone other than Marth dies we lynch either Bart or Sully. In this situation though, there are no potential clears; regardless of what happens any two people can be scum. the challenge (especially in the town kirsche scenario) is that outing targets makes it easier for scum to develop a plan. But Marth's role is such that if we don't know who he targeted, we can't get any info from his death.

question Refa why do you think Marth's role makes sense with Mack's? actually you know what what Refa said about kirsche/Bart suspecting each other while both voting the same person reminds me heavily of me/Manix in Spellcard. I'm going to stick with this kirsche vote.

with Sully I agree with kirsche that a lot of it is fluff and/or saying wrong things/maybe misreps but then in the middle of the post he'll make a point that's good? like for example I agree with the point that kirsche was acting like he found me scummy all along when all his stuff today is purely from today. yes, you can find nothing specifically objectionable about what I say and still be wary of me, but I don't see any attempt by kirsche to still push me or get any info from me yesterday that would help in his read of me. The only time he talks about me is to say that I'm the least likely to be scum out of his non-townreads and he still hasn't done a great job (to me) of showing why "subtly undermining his Sully case" was enough to overturn all that.

@kirsche- when I meant that you weren't responding to my points, I was referring to stuff like your bit on Shinori- I fully admitted that I waffled on Shinori in one post, but my point was that my overall read on Shinori was consistently that I thought he was suspicious, even if I never voted him. But you just focused on that one post, which didn't rebut my point. Rebutting my point would have been to look at all my Shinori posts and saying "look you waffle in all these places" or showing in some way that that one post was indicative of my posts as a whole wrt Shinori. It's not just that your case against me is bad; it's that it's finding a totally contrived reason for suspicion. I don't understand how you can say with a straight face that your Sully case wasn't barebones, and me pointing that out isn't undermining it. Me not specifically asking you for examples doesn't mean that your case wasn't barebones, just that I maybe didn't do a good job communicating how exactly it was barebones. Also, you're now adding that you find Sully suspicious not just for hopping around, but who they hopped onto, and yet you never even said who he hopped on to until I pressured you about it! I wasn't even saying that your case being barebones was scummy, because it was clear that Sully wasn't supposed to be your main scumread going into the day, and you pivoted into it when Shinori died. I just asked you to to put more into it so that I could develop a better read on you and not judge you based on a case that hadn't been your main focus. What's scummy is when you pretend that your Sully vote was a proper case, when half of it is still you attempting to come to a read on him (hence all the questions you ask other people). Also, I didn't say you were suspicious for playing to your town meta, I said that your Shinori interactions were questionable because barely talking about another player, especially one who was one of the more discussed topics, is generally suspicious. However, I qualified that by saying that your town playstyle could be a possible reason for that as well. I apologize for accusing you of faking inactivity though; that was in bad taste and not something you've done before as scum. @Refa- PoE isn't the only part of my case against kirsche, but it is a part of it, so it makes me less confident. Reading his last few posts in a claim vacuum reminded me why I was suspicious about him before the claim, but I still just.. can't think of a reason why kirsche would claim VT in that situation other than WIFOM. Refa, does that not bother you very much, or are you just okay with either of kirsche/Bartozio?

I don't mean that him making the point is specifically townie, just that Bart being available for lynch widens the pool of possible scum candidates and makes the PoE case on kirsche weaker

yes because it re-opens the possibility of Bart being scum, which reduces the chance of kirsche being scum

mafia is such a stupid stupid game why do I do this to myself @Marth- I know Prims looked worse from the Ken flip but scum killed him anyways so that's not that relevant? What's relevant is that they weren't afraid of town having a protective role when they shot Mack on N2, which either means that Prims was a protective role, they just didn't think town had a legit protective role, or they have a hitman, but if Prims isn't a protective role why would they even be given a hitman? And the other thing that's relevant is that nobody has claimed the role that creates the neighbourhood, so either that's Prims or the neighbourhood is intrinsically part of the setup but I can't think of why SB would be like "let's put the vig in a neighbourhood with a bunch of vanillas". Who do you think is scum? @Elie- please read the thread, yes I think I'm leaning towards a kirsche lynch but his point about masons maybe being enough investigation is fair, but the thing is that it's almost more like an innocent townie with hydra perks than masons guhhh I'm going to look back at his past few non-claim posts.

well one of Sully/kirsche idk either would make sense. the reason I asked that is that if Shinori/Michelaar are less likely then either Sully/kirsche are in fact buddies or one of you/Via/Marth is scum the thing that gets me is mafia's kill on Mack. for them to kill Prims they would have to know town has no doctor, which would only work if Prims was the doc. so then maybe he wasn't responsible for the neighbourhood?

why the fuck does scum have a janitor if there are barely any roles and most of them are impossible to fake? this game is low power enough that scum probably have a Goon so it makes it likelier that scum would claim VT. if Sully is a scum Goon it would be more likely as a new player that he would claim VT than fake something on the spot so I'm at the point where the claims push me in Sully's direction but the rest of the play pushes me towards kirsche. I know I've said this like a billion times but Elie's claim specifically would be super helpful because I know he would try to make big plays as scum with his role claim so his claim would be more alignment-telling who do you guys think are less likely to be buddies, Shinori/Michelaar or Sully/kirsche?

so yeah I'm leaning away from lynching Bart today then. ummmm I guess elieson? I can't remember kirsche/Mich ever saying anything about each other. I think maybe kirsche asked a couple times whether Michelaar was the guy who got mad when people pressured him or something but that was it. but the shinori interactions with michelaar are a thing.

idk "interrogator" and "trickster" might just be completely flavour-based because Mack's character is apparently a prosecutor and Paperblade's was a phantom thief or something. maybe Via knows more about this? leaning towards Bart but I know Via really wants a Sully or kirsche lynch. really frustrating that Elie is also flaking because I was happy when Elie came in + Shinori flipped scum because it meant that slot was probably town and it would contribute more, but then Elie only posted scummy stuff and is posting less than Mich

ugh fucking SF made me lose my post cuz I clicked on "show notification" or whatever bleh I was kind of assuming that Mack/Paper didn't have anything else to their roles. I guesss "interrogator" could be some kind of investigative role so maybe Bart isn't legit? because it would put a lot of town's eggs into one basket considering how low power this game is and that they die together. But you're right that "Interrogator" doesn't exactly line up with the roleclaim. the thing that's frustrating is like... there's no way NO scum would claim PRs right??? but then considering we talked about how it was townie that kirsche claimed VT maybe Sully would try to do the same? ugh Elie's claim would be really helpful to help me decide which way to go on the roles idk anymore Refa/Via/Marth who do you guys think is scummiest out of Bart/Sully/kirsche/Elie? I feel like Bart is the scummiest after kirsche's claim but I also feel like lynching his role today would be dumb but I also feel like one of the people who claimed a role would be scum and Bart is way scummier than Marth

I shot Shinori? thought that was obvious when I claimed okay I think Refa you were probably right then with your theory that Prims was the one who put us in the neighbourhood. This means that assuming @Elieson isn't an info role Bartozio is probably legit because otherwise town would have no info roles. Marth is probably our "protective" role. I don't know what to do with all these vanilla claims though

1-shot vig so I'm confirmed town

I was just about to say that yeah. Elie should claim whenever he sees this though

ugh I wouldn't want to lynch Bart today because if we get the 2nd scum today then scum!Bart would basically have to either PoE himself down or force a 1v1 yeah screw it let's massclaim. order: Sully, Elie, me, Refa, Via.

sighhhh I'm really wondering if kirsche would go for a VT claim at this point as scum. Assuming scum were given fakes, most likely they were given 2 PRs + 1 VT, and since Shinori never used one + they have a potential janned role I don't see why he'd go with VT other than WIFOM reasons, which would be a hell of a gambit considering he's most likely the most experienced player on the scumteam and if he gets lynched they're probably losing Elie hasn't claimed either

neighbours/a neighbourhood are people who have the ability to talk to each other outside of thread in an NOC game, but don't know each others' alignments (compared to masons, who in addition to being able to speak outside of the thread are confirmed town to each other) and QT stands for Quicktopic, which is a site we use in mafia to facilitate outside-of-game communication for those who have it (scum, neighbours, masons, etc).

ok so might as well out this because it doesn't really have any role impact- Via, Refa, Michelaar, and I have been in a neighbourhood QT since the start of N1. Mich/Elie haven't really posted anything in it, but the rest of us have been discussing the game a lot in there (I think we're up to almost 250 posts), and it's mostly all content, not spam. Like Paper said it's a lot harder to fake content and a town perspective when you're talking non-stop so Refa would have to be moling next-level if he's scum.

I was hoping Refa would respond to your post but I don't really like basing scumreads purely off interactions, and beyond paranoia I don't have an actual problem with his play. I'm a bit frustrated that he hasn't posted much this phase but I can't really see myself voting for Refa without him being in a 1v1 situation with me/you/Via.