Tangerine
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Hawkeye is not better than Isadora. Isadora doubles and has a horse (and WT control).
Her doubles are weak. Not to mention she could have trouble doubling in her chapter anyway. Silver Sword Isadora has 14 AS and WTD against pretty much every enemy in the chapter. She can't do much of anything with Lances since she only has a B. She needs the power from a Silver weapon to make up for her STR. Her garbage HP, defense, avoid loss and WTD don't add up to something good.
And that's exactly what I mean. They're not the best units in the game, so their opportunity costs exceed their revenue, so they shouldn't be deployed past when they're required.Hawkeye is forced into two chapters. If we're not deploying them past the chapters they're required, Hawkeye has an automatic advantage.
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Hawkeye's bases aren't really in the right places (namely, he doesn't have enough AS to double for awhile) and he steals EXP (aka hurts EXP rank).
What's the point in moving Hawkeye down? Who's he going to go below <_<? Hawkeye with a Killer Axe at least has 50~ crit and a huge amount of HP, giving him a better combination of offense/defense than anyone below him apart from Vaida. Isadora's offense sucks if she upgrades to powerful weapons because of her CON, so she either has weak doubles or strong singles. Her defense doesn't need to be talked about. Jaffar has obvious problems despite his great stats.
Vaida joins too late and doesn't really contribute anything, in addition to being a subpar unit anyway.I ask the same thing for her. Vaida has fantastic combat stats that make her invincible against all physical attackers (barring archers). Not very EXP rank friendly, but she has to be ranked somehow. Vaida can actually double a couple things with her HM boosts too. If she didn't join so late, she'd most definitely be in upper mid.
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A little bit of background: contrary to popular belief, the fad-starting perverts with which the GFaqs FE boards are normally associated do not represent those of us who play Fire Emblem seriously.
But not too seriously, right :P?
I still can't take GFaqs seriously.I don't see what the difference is between Serenes and GameFAQs. GameFAQs may have a reputation for housing less-than mature posters, but you can't honestly tell me Serenes has no troublemakers of its own. Even then, brushing Jaffar and I off just because we're from GameFAQs is pretty ignorant, especially when I think we've shown that we have little in common with the types you're relating us to. Internet message board segregation is a joke.
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I have. I love Valkyria Chronicles :o. The story isn't amazing or anything (it's made like an anime, what do you expect?), but it's fun and the characters are great.
I suggest waiting and getting the $299 PS3 bundled with Gran Turismo 5 or Uncharted 2. The U2 bundle will be out pretty soon. May as well get a free game thrown in.
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You know GhebFE? Yeah, gimme the difficulty from that and I might actually play a new FE game all the way through. FE hacks are all I can count on these days. DorcasFE and GhebSaga are looking great and will most definitely appeal to me more than the next official FE game, thanks to the difficulty that actually requires strategy be used on the player's part.
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why is there a tier difference between Farina and Dart
Dart fucks up the funds rank more than twice as much as Farina does [50k>>>>>20k, plus Farina's cost is slightly reduced by her inventory] and I certainly can't see Dart's SLIGHTLY better combat outweighing this.
We just recently adopted the "net gain" system. We're still not sure how to place units based on it, whether we should even bother USING the system or if it accurately represents a character's usefulness. The net gain system will make the best units better and the units worse than them even worse. This gives you the best idea of who you should use on a HHM ranked run, but it makes the characters that aren't as good as them look worse than they really are.
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Started a FE recently <_<*
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If we penalize Karel for denying us Harken, we have to penalize Harken for denying us Karel. That just brings them both down unnecessarily. Sure, denying us Harken is more severe than denying us Karel
Harken is better than Karel. Harken shouldn't be penalized for being better than someone else.
but I'd say Wo Dao > Brave Sword. My opinion. It depends on the characters you're using. Guy or Lyn would like that Wo Dao. A number of units would like the Brave Sword. Just take out cost.Guy is the only one who would prefer the Wo Dao. Wo Dao for Guy is an assured 6x damage. Brave Sword is better for everyone else, even if they lose AS.
I'm also not entirely sure I like the idea of using net gains on the tier list. It isn't something I came up with; it really limits the amount of comparison you can do between characters.
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Gonzales on HM has nearly capped strength when he joins. I have no idea why you'd say he needs to be babied <_<.
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Bartre > Rebecca, because neither will be used past their forced periods (opportunity cost of a unit slot exceeds returns), and Bartre's forced period is superior to Rebecca's.
I agree with this, actually.
Dart down to bottom. He won't be used outside of his joining chapter, as his prepromotion performance is rather underwhelming and the cost of promotion is huge. Again, opportunity cost of a unit slot exceeds returns.Dart is a good choice as an EXP sponge for a little later on. He has enough base speed to avoid being doubled by the common enemies like Cavs and Axe users.
Wil down to bottom for the same reason, except his promo item doesn't cost as much, but using an Orion Bolt on him means we could have used another promotion item on another unit for a better allocation of funds.Wil is forced for one chapter, which automatically gives him more contribution than people in bottom <_<. Renault sucks in his forced chapter too. I think Nino needs to move up more, if anything. Wil is also a decent EXP sponge thanks to 2 range.
Heath and Rath down to bottom or low, because they will never be used outside of their joining chapters (Heath is outclassed, Rath is outclassed once Louise comes along).Heath and Rath come underleveled. Their use as EXP sponges shouldn't even need to be said. Whether or not they're worth promoting after their EXP sponging is up in the air.
Karel to bottom because he prevents Harken from being recruited.Well, this is tricky. I dunno what I think about Karel yet. I don't think he's bad enough for bottom though, even if Harken can't be recruited if you get him. What Karel can't do that Harken can should determine his placement.
Canas down a couple of tiers for the same reason as like everyone else above.I think Canas is useful enough to warrant being lame when he joins. Promoting him early helps him not suck, though it hurts the exp rank.
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Every prepromote is the best prepromote in FE8. Why is there no "all" option :(?
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Oh, the one I posted earlier wasn't the most recent one, though there isn't many changes anyway.
-Top-
Matthew
Ninian/Nils
Raven
Guy
Serra
-High-
Priscilla
Oswin
Hector
Sain
Kent
Erk
Lowen
Marcus
Pent
Harken
Eliwood
-Upper Mid-
Florina
Lucius
Dorcas
Geitz
Legault
Lyn
Fiora
Hawkeye
-Lower Mid-
Vaida
Jaffar
Canas
Isadora
Rebecca
Rath
-Low-
Bartre
Heath
Karel
Dart
Louise
Wil
Renault
-Bottom-
Nino
Farina
Wallace
Karla
We did the Bartre and Sain/Kent/Lowen thing before, so there's no need to get into those again :P.
This assumption defeats the purpose of tiering characters. Please escort it out of this topic.Not at all. I disagree with Bartre not being used at all (he'd be at bottom of bottom if that were true), but he isn't going to be used for long either. Assuming a bad unit is used for the entire game just doesn't make sense. Comparing characters when they're good enough to be used makes much more sense. For example, Raven is going to be good the entire game, so he'll most likely be used the entire game. Bartre is going to be good for the first few chapters, then he's going to suck. So it should be chapter 2-6 Bartre vs chapter 19+ Raven. Bartre's gonna get dropped soon, Raven isn't.
Bartre WOULD be bottom of bottom if we assumed he was used the entire game. That's taking up much better units' slots for such a long time that no amount of good he does will make up for it. You're just hurting your ranks by using Bartre that long.
For the record, pretty much anyone from top to upper mid can be used the entire game (except Dorcas) and not really hurt anything thanks to the enemies being pretty terrible. I wouldn't hurt Harken for taking Raven's spot late game, for example.
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Sain has the lead in STR, LCK, and an equal lead on DEF with Lowen. Has an inferior affinity, Wind. Has the better STR growth.
At 20/0 Sain wins: STR, SPD, SKL (wow, Sain wins skill..). Lowen wins HP, DEF, RES and LCK. Sain's offense destroys his, quite frankly.
Kent has the lead in HP with Lowen, SKL, SPD, and RES. Has the second best affinity in the game, Anima. Has a better SKL and SPD growth.20/0 Kent wins: STR, SKL, SPD, RES. Lowen wins: HP, DEF, LCK
Kent and Sain beat Lowen in all of those growths as well, except RES for Kent. Lowen wins defense, Kent and Sain win offense. The thing is, Kent and Sain still don't have bad defense.
Sain has leads in STR, LCK, and DEF, as how any normal greencav should. Sadly, his support affinity, Wind, sucks. He can support Kent, but Kent wants somebody with Hit. He also has Fiora, but why the hell would you want a Wind-Wind relationship?!? Rebecca has too low of a MOV to keep up with Sain, same with Serra, Priscilla has Wind, Louise has Light that Sain doesn't want, and Isadora; but, she's already supporting a shitload of better characters. SORRY SAIN, YOU'LL HAVE TO GO ALONE. Or with Kent. Either way.ANY support is better than no support. Plus, Wind DOES give hit, so I dunno what you're talking about. Kent takes Sain every time. Fiora does too, if she's in play. She only takes Florina over Sain. Probably gonna end up with just A Kent though.
Kent is the typical redcav, with his leads in HP, SKL, SPD, and RES. Luckily for him, he's given the awesome Anima affinity; better yet, he supports a lot of people who benefit from the defensive boosts, mainly Lyn, Sain, and Fiora. Anyone else, you shouldn't really bother with. AKA: Lollace, Failrina, and Heath. No names for Heath, I say?!? Well, Heath is motherfucking Heath. That and he also supports Legault. Poor Heath; he's got the skillz but no friendz.Kent is pretty much assured A Sain/B Lyn if in play.
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BBlade would like Moribalken to say something regarding the subject. >_>
Sain >= Kent > Lowen is what we came to, though we're still discussing it. Lowen's offense is too suspect.
So you thought our support options were restricted in unranked FE7 HHM? Well, they're restricted even more now, since due to the EXP rank requirements, you are forced to rotate deployed units, which leads to less available chapters for support building.You don't need to rotate at all early game. This early in the game you can use a good team for a while and you NEED to use a good team. It's only in mid and late that the EXP rank starts to come into play for the most part. It's most efficient to use your best units, build up characters and then use those characters to support your EXP sponges. Marcus is the only one who shouldn't be used often out of your good characters, because he gets nothing.
Plus you didn't go out of your way to get supports like I suggested, you went through it like normal. Using my method of bare-bones Tactics S rank, you can get a good amount of turns in for supports at any point in the game with the right character choices. All defense chapters are free support turns as well.
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But that's my problem. Experience is by far the hardest rank to get 5 stars in, and promoting Serra will result in getting less staff experience, and therefore it could be argued Priscilla is still doing better because she's helping the tougher rank while still maintaining +1 move for more reliable healing. And some of her supports might actually happen in a reasonable amount of time.
Because Bishops get a huge boost in EXP gain. Serra will gain EXP MUCH quicker by attacking as a Bishop. Valkyries also get this boost. Priscilla definitely has better supports though; Erk and Guy are awesome supports. Erk is super fast and Guy starts early with great boosts.
And how in hell does Serra heal every turn in LHM? The enemies there are piss easy and there aren't even that many of them.You bare minimum S rank Tactics. You heal no matter how much HP they need. HP gain from a level up, counter, Nils, etc.
What are these numbers worth if he has to follow a thief around the place while he goes around his pillaging job? What are they worth if Raven can ORKO even without a critical, something Guy needs supports and the right weapon for?Guy may look good on paper, but on the field, he's hindered by what he needs to be strong.
He doesn't need to follow the thief most of the time. The only time he needs Matthew in range is against the toughest enemies (bosses). He'll have less raw attack than Raven, but his crit (71 without Matt in range) more than makes up for it. 71 crit is still very reliable and he'll still crit once per round on average. If I remember right, you need 64 crit or so to crit once on average.
Raven and Guy are very even against all 1 range randoms. Guy just wins against the toughest of tough.
Anyway, I need to go for the night. I'll be back tomorrow to reply to you guys. Take care.
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Guy may be the "strongest" in FE7 thanks to Killer weapons and an increased critical rate, but he's not the most reliable of units. For example, Raven can be a great equal in terms of offense assuming he uses Killer weapons. Anyone can.
Raven can't equal his offense. Guy's crit lead is huge.
Guy doesn't deserve to be in Top tier. 30% Strength growth? Laughable.His average strength gives him all the attack he needs.
It's simply not enough to keep up with the enemies later on in the game. Guy needs to critical to kill anything when he gets past Ch20. Even with a double 80% critical chance, it's still not as reliable as someone like Raven who can kill with or without a critical, where players don't have to worry about having supports nearby, what weapon is being used, and any other factors in which Guy needs for maximum efficiency. Guy is near crap without his supports and Killer weapons. Many other units, even Florina, are something, even without supports and Killer weapons and whatever else is needed to make Guy good. Eugh.Guy keeps up with the enemies just fine, like I proved earlier in the topic. Guy is able to match Raven's offense no matter how much you want to spin it. Even if you take his Matt support away for chapters Matt can't come or needs to go reeeeally off path, Guy will be able to consistently match and often beat Raven's 1 range offense. Of course, Matt will very rarely need to go so far off path that Guy can't go with him. In fact, you often escort Matt with a group to treasure because it's guarded. 86% crit is EXTREMELY reliable. He will literally crit once per round 98.6% of the time. Those aren't even made up numbers.
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I didn't say they don't matter, I said they don't really fly as an argument unless in really extreme cases. I.e you aren't fielding Nino because she takes a unit slot, you don't field her because she sucks, and nobody in their right mind will argue Karla>Hawkeye on the premise that Karla doesn't use a unit slot, assuming Karla was forced into Final. Hector being forced and Eliwood not? That's a good example of when not using a unit slot should come into play.
Well, Nino is assured use just because she contributes so much to the EXP rank in a short amount of time anyway :P. When you HAVE to be in a chapter no matter what like Hector, it's hard to give him a value. Nobody compares to him.
Exactly how much is Marcus use restricted though? I'd imagine he'd still see a fair amount of use, he's not raping your EXP rank with Iron Sword softening [Of course the combat rank, but I'm not sure how much leeway you get with that.]Marcus USE isn't restricted. Marcus abuse is. Your other units should be doing most of the attacking and killing early on to maximize EXP gains. Marcus is good for holding choke points, rescue strategies, taking out key units and just being an overall beast. He can't blitz through a chapter like in your tier lists though, or he'll hurt your chances of S ranking.
Considering this is ranked, I think Eliwood and Lyn might be a bit high considering that their promotion hurts the funds rank, as in they cost more then the regular knight crest,guiding ring etc. If we were to promote all the lords we might have to limit the other characters promotion, unless if i'm mistaken and their contribution to the EXP rank, outweighs the funds they take?They're tricky. Their prf weapons save them from a crappy early game thanks to Cavs and Knights being everywhere, but they promote late and cost more than normal to do it. On the other hand, they're forced into a few chapters and you need to use them to get the best route. They also have extremely fast supports with other good units. I could see Eliwood moving down to upper mid as well though.
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This doesn't really refute anything I said about unit slots but okay.
You said unit slots don't matter. Characters get dropped as soon as they don't earn a unit slot on our list. We essentially only compare characters in the time frame they're used instead of assuming they're used the entire game when comparing them.
And yes, Dorcas is indeed cool for earlygame utility, but is it worth that much? I'm not sold on him>GeitzWell, early game without Marcus abuse is hell. Dorcas' usefulness increases greatly when you can't spam Marcus. Geitz comes around the start of late game when the game is considerably easier. Once your units start to promote, he gets outclassed quickly.
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Doesn't Gamefaqs think Nino is one of the best characters in the game, and consider Marcus gutter trash?
You realize the tier list I posted was the one we made at GameFAQs, right? The "lololol ghebbattaglasspwn lickwallace'shead" group shouldn't represent GameFAQs here at all. At least, not in the tier topics.
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It's somewhat counter-intuitive anyway. The biggest bitch in ranking this game is the experience rank (even when I did a no-Tactics ranked run, meaning I tried to 5-star everything without bothering with Tactics, I still ended up with 1 star in Experience. And I even used Nino), and promoted staff users get half the experience for staff use, so it could be argued that Priscilla still helps more since she contributes more to that on top of having +1 move to promoted Serra. If you don't give Serra all the LHM leveling, they provide roughly the same to experience but Priscilla has her ever-too-obvious advantages.
It pretty much comes out to Lyn mode, which we assume is S ranked for the White Gem. Serra has a big level lead from healing every turn, so she promotes sooner and thus starts attacking before her.
I didn't know that, but my real problem is the immaturity often attributed to GFaqs. I don't want that leaking into tier lists.There's a big difference between the general GameFAQs community and the people that work on our tier list. I don't think I've been particularly immature, anyway.
I just said, unit slot costs are pretty much never considered when debating about units. Characters like Est, Rofl, Marisa, Nino, et cetera don't suck because they use unit slots, they suck because they suck. Similarly, you don't see anybody complaining about unit slots when it comes to units like Dick, Rutger, Zag, Wolf, Merric, Marcus, Seth, Titania, et cetera. Being forced is cool and everything but it shouldn't be the end of the world, I see it a minor positive since it's not exactly something you can ignore.They are on GameFAQs. We don't assume a character is used the whole game just because they're being compared to someone who does. We assume a character is used for as long as they're good, then we drop them and compare their usefulness to other character's. Dorcas is so high for this reason; he has a monstrously useful early game, but sucks late game. He gets dropped, but still remains high because he helped so much in the hardest part of the game that he was worth more than characters who might get used a little longer.
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And Hector not being tiered is a load of horse hockey imho. Unit slots is an opportunity cost yes but it never flies when people try to use it as an argument. So there's no reason Hector shouldn't be listed, you just don't factor his not eating a unit slot [After all, I don't see people saying how awesome Roy is because he doesn't use a slot]
Roy is as high as he is because he has no cost. Hector is, of course, going to be quite high because he doesn't take anyone's slots and he's good. He hurts the EXP rank for a while though. The problem is we're unsure how to put value on a unit who costs nothing. For example, Raven and Guy have better offense than anyone else so they aren't hurting anything by taking up a unit slot. You look at the best unit that isn't getting into the chapter, compare it to Raven/Guy and then see how much better they are. That's how you value them in any given chapter. How do you value someone who takes no unit slot and thus has nobody who can replace him?
but-wait what is Marcus doing out of Top tierWhat Marcus does for the Tactics rank he takes from the EXP rank. The two hardest things to S rank. Marcus should be used with caution for this reason. The Tactics rank can be made up for with a couple rushes, but the EXP rank is going to force you to keep your characters underleveled. The more you abuse Marcus, the longer you need to be underleveled.
...what?Guy's earlygame is actually good. REALLY good.
Pretty much. Guy's a beast throughout the entire game. His offense is top tier, he can survive just as well as any other unit you've got (except the obvious ones that nobody is as durable as) and he has great supports.
I don't see why we need to discuss Gfaqs's tier list...We've considered your efficiency tier list when discussing matters in our tiers. I don't really see what's wrong with seeing how another community does things. Sometimes it helps you with yours.
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Also, Pent above Guy and Lucius.
Pent IS above Lucius. He isn't above Guy though; Guy is one of the best units in the game.
I can buy Rath > Louise, but the Combat rank is a complete joke. You can 5-star that even if you boss abuse.Hurting the Combat rank hurts the Tactics rank. The more enemies you leave alive, the more enemies block your path to the throne/gate and waste turns. Louise doesn't even help the exp rank by hurting the combat rank because she doesn't attack at close range. 2 rounding isn't a horrible thing to do, because you still get extra EXP from it. 2 rounding and still only getting the EXP you'd get from a one round is garbage.
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Athos could be Lower/Lower-Mid. You get Forblaze and he's a nice Gotoh.
Well, I put Hector on the list to show you where we had him before we took him off the ranks for discussion purposes.
And why is Louise so low? Should be at LEAST higher than Rath.Louise hurts the combat/tactics (one or the other) and EXP rank. Rath comes at a low level, so he helps the EXP rank. When he promotes he stops hurting the combat rank.
Who are you representing?GameFAQs.
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This is our tier list:
-Top-
Matthew
Ninian/Nils
Raven
Guy
Serra
-High-
Priscilla
Hector
Oswin
Sain
Kent
Erk
Lowen
Marcus
Pent
Harken
Eliwood
-Upper Mid-
Florina
Lucius
Dorcas
Geitz
Legault
Lyn
Fiora
-Lower Mid-
Hawkeye
Vaida
Jaffar
Canas
Isadora
Rebecca
Rath
-Low-
Heath
Karel
Dart
Bartre
Louise
Wil
Renault
-Bottom-
Nino
Farina
Wallace
Karla
-Unranked/Disputed-
Athos
Hector
Athos and Hector are unranked right now because they don't take up a unit slot. The entire point of the tiers is to compare characters FOR those unit slots. Dunno where to place them because of this.
Destroy the person above you.
in Forum Games
Posted
Not enough people being destroyed in this topic. It needs to be remedied.