[Conquest tiering discussion]

18 minutes ago, Steeles4500 said:

Id move it to luna club but its basically just bashing my head against a wall.

 

No, odin CANNOT do the things he says you do if he doesn't get stats. Silas cant even outside of very early game. Non prepromo units have to get growths, And odin has 50% in just about every catgory as well as terrible bases.and needs to hit ridiculous benchmarks to be able to do his nostank shitck past the early game.

 

I ran the numbers you the insane luck you would need for these units to be even remotely as strong as you guys claim earlier in the thread, the numbers.are very low.

 

Your guys whole playstyle basically assumes fantastic growth luck on every unit. The reason corrin and jakob.are so good is because they hit the benchmarks more consistently but still have to get some.growth luck to get effict clears.

 

Jakob and Corn both have low bases and inconsistent middle of the road growths.

[Conquest tiering discussion]

3 minutes ago, Steeles4500 said:

Hitrates was me being pissy, my bad.

But the growths, ok so jakob literally did not proc speed a single time. If arthur or silas leveled 6 times and got nothing would you still use them? By that logic the only good units are prepromos, which is basically a 0% approach.

NGL i should just start doing 0% strats.

Yes.

[Conquest tiering discussion]

4 hours ago, Steeles4500 said:

If you think anyone except corrin at ch8 can even compare to jakob then its clear we wont every agree on anything so ill just stop there.

There is a video, in thread, of base Silias doing Jakobs shtic on ch8.

Elise is neither PP nor EP she's an aurabot that can turn multiple PP units into EP units.

[Conquest tiering discussion]

1 minute ago, Steeles4500 said:

Her defense is still bad, so shes not gonna be an EP god, and i dont really see the point in deploying any non EP god units besides utility past ch10.

Also combine her skill with the bolt axe fe6 level hit and it gets pretty rough. Where even are the skill book in this game?

Elise is utility.

Poise+Demosel+Sblow/Inspiration with lunge access. Lemme just stack another +3/+7 or more.

[Conquest tiering discussion]

To be fair it's not like Odin/Ophy care what Corndog brings. They've got a standard set of Mal/HS/Riposte/Vantage/LaD and only Shuikenbreaker or a +5 help Odin at all. Ophy can jack skills from gen2's so, eh.

Elise likes to marry into heartseeker for obvious reasons. Past that Bolt Axe MT is so stupidbork that we never really need more than +7 with Elise's cracked out mag/speed. She is fond of skill books and is on the list of units who enjoy Hp tonics/Robe.

Divine isn't awful because early 1-2 and we can just jack any class in the game so *shrug*. Nhorble is a perfectly tolerable class.

[Conquest tiering discussion]

47 minutes ago, Steeles4500 said:

I meant strat for the overall game, and like i just made the edit i was trying to train his lance rank so there was a miss chance.

I almost flatout refuse to use wyvern elise. It just doesnt make sense. She might be able to barely hit benchmarks early game but with stats like that no amount of bolt axe malig is gonna make you work as an EP unit.

94% hit over 7+ combats is a lot to miss.

Easiest overall strat to shift into is simply subbing Silias for Jakob on a +str Corn with 4 str statues. He can take that setup and reliably clear every map in the game including ch28 no-proc. It's like jakobdin, except better in every way.

The general strat is 4 early pairings and stack to high hell filling in empty slots with kids/captures/Xander/dancer. Unit choice is pretty irrelevant past that as any combination of 4 early is sufficent to efficently clear the game.

It's not complicated.

Intentionally sleeping on unit's like WElise is thilly :p

[Conquest tiering discussion]

1 minute ago, Steeles4500 said:

how do you smuggle a bronze axe when you need the tonic from the staff shop to double the faceless with a jakob pairup.
silas didnt get any xp becuase he constantly missed. it was just godawful rng, dont really worry about it
just throw me the strats im supposed to break the game with highy doubt your ideas.

Silias has 100% hit in attack stance with Elise....

Do a visit for the DV point?

It's ch7. The only varient strat's use Wyvern Elise over Stavebot Elise.

[Conquest tiering discussion]

4 hours ago, Steeles4500 said:

OK i eventually managed to not miss enough to beat ch7 with this horrible luck but arthur and silas got no XP
Corrin is too frail and slow to nostank, her speed and mag are still base even though she is +mag and level 12

Arthur's hitrate should never actually matter on ch7. If it's really upsetting you that much smuggle in a bronze axe.

Why is +MagCorn trying to Nostank?

How the living actual HELL does Silias get no Exp in 7?

[Conquest tiering discussion]

19 minutes ago, Steeles4500 said:

On a Tier list topic the name of the game is ease and consistency, while not being too overly slow.

This is in fact what is being discussed.

------------

Starburst is just also actively hyping his favorite run instead of just saving the effort of typing it every time by plugging it in his siggy. He knows his stuff.

We're all emotionally wracked by Drank Odin right now.

[Conquest tiering discussion]

51 minutes ago, Steeles4500 said:

14 base + tonic (2) + rally def (4)= 20 def
thats pretty solid yeah, silas still needs to be botted by kaze to double shit with his dreadful average speed at 20/1 MN of 20, which is abysmal for a unit that has almost all their class bases in speed. 

hes coming out with 16 str so he really is carried by all that stack, so he does remain probably the best ninja on the route because he actually does have solid EP. Ninjas is hard to justify anyway, since they are a footlock class.

If,which is clearly true, we can stack just about anyone to high hell, why do it on a footlock and not a wyvern or something.

I've never seen MNlias not cap statue boosted str. 20+12 doubles in 17 ez. After that we're at or pushing 20/5 and can ride a 9-12 move birb to victory.

We stack everything it's the abusable mechanic of fates. SolMN/VSorc and to a lesser extent Talismanstack Xander are just notable for being units that can be used in situations where Birbs and Ponys cannot.

As Wyvern skills are mentioned the units in question are perfectly capable of jumping into birb.

We have no reason not to birb when it's useful.

Our priority goes to early units because... They Exist.

Edit: Arthur has +15 stack on a Draco S and access to +1 move on his A+ with a Niles/Be support locked and loaded whenever it's needed. He also is an irreplacable font of AI manipulation. Pretty good for a ch7 join. He also has the highest axe rank in the game at any given time.

As for attack stance. If a unit ain't blending it's solid. With aurabots (stacked auras on a unit like MK Elise) this becomes a really potent tactic for the 9+ not guard stanced units we're using. Past that it's just... another useful tool in the box and is just plain better than guard stance when we don't need GS.

[Conquest tiering discussion]

11 minutes ago, Steeles4500 said:

silas averages out with 14 def as a 20/20 promo into master ninja, all his classes have very similar class def growths so it doesnt change it, and at most it may add or retract one point of def. WIth the binomial averages (https://stattrek.com/online-calculator/binomial.aspx) i would count anything with over 90% probability as average.

14 def isnt even on the same plane as xander with sol. if we add in VoF its 17 def which is still nowhere near 27 with sol. dracoshield gives him to 19 which is still 8 points behind xander.

That looks low AF but sure.

Add a Draco pairup for +whatever at S rank when Def is needed over speed.

Tack on a full def stack of that's also needed FSR for another +10.

Assuming 14 base (I have never seen this) we hit 31+ effective def before Aura's (up to +8 more)

We live. Thugs die, and things actually attack us.

[Conquest tiering discussion]

10 minutes ago, Steeles4500 said:

how do you have rally speed that early?

also inspiring song wont be active every turn but ill still count it.
How in the mother or fuck does silas have trample and shurikenfaire before xander join.

how in the mother of god does odin have trample, life and death, and elbow room before the join of Leo.

This also completely ignored defense which is fine for odin because he has a vantage setup but not for silas.

Mainly tell me how they get all those skills at that time.

Read it again. Both full 2nd and and third shop were compared.

Silias has natural bulk comparable to Xander + Sol

Edit: We can capture in Leo's join for very early rally speed or just... live with +13 until ch13 rallyman.

(Ohhell, I forgot fancy foot work, forgive me Laslow! It's +14/+18)

[Conquest tiering discussion]

24 minutes ago, Steeles4500 said:

Show the math, and we can discuss it further. I am interested. 

Song+3, Tonic+2, Meal+2, Rally+4, Pairup +6. +17 speed

Odin (full invest for damage ignoring Ophy): +2 mal, +3 Riposte, +3/+5 Eroom/Trample , +10LaD = +18-20 damage per hit

Silias (MN): +3 Vow, +3 Riposte, +3 Eroom, +5 Faire, +5-+2 trample/Str+2 = +16-19 damage per hit.

Both self heal with innate autobenchmark hp/def/res.

Leo starts with +2 v Odin's potential +8, Xander starts with +6 vs Silias's potential +11. Both Silias and Odin have A+/S supports running for between +2 and +3 higher adds on benchmark stats at their competitors joins. This is a +9-+7 lead on stack before stats come into play on damage output and we will always have our other stats to do-job.

The probability of either unit dropping enough growths to go below benchmarks is borderline impossible.

For the sake of argument let's assume that bit of insanity happens, great, we have stat boosters. Which Leo and Xander will always need to perform the same job.

There is no RNG here, our math is simple addition. We will just hit benchmark stats on early units every, single, time.

[Conquest tiering discussion]

4 minutes ago, Steeles4500 said:

Its basically that these early units have a much higher chance of falling off, a stacked xander can roll the second half guaranteed while silas still needs to hit alot of thresholds in order to outcompete xander. Yes they matter a ton in the early game but they certainly care not gonna keep up with xander who makes better use of his resources after join.

Also there is all this talk of attack stance heavy play on sernes but i dont understand it. There is no reason not to enemy phase juggernaut the whole game with backpacks, its easier, faster, and more efficent. Especially when the game gives you extremely powerful prepromo kids and royals and a TON of pair up bots and statboosting mechanics, no reason not to build up a stacked guard stance only wyvern army.

This would be true if MN Silias and Sorc!Odin didn't reliably hit every threshold in guard stance.

[Conquest tiering discussion]

11 minutes ago, Steeles4500 said:

Riggin isn't an argument, the more you bring it up the less valid your argument is. With rigging i can get kaze to level 10 before the route split with camilla level bases. Then it just becomes availability emblem 

And yes silas is very strong in the first half as is Nos Odin, but really you either bench them or use their kids that have bases instead after chapter 16 because they cant keep up without majorly blessed rng.

Not really?

Skill/support lead is huge. As in double digit numbers huge. This lasts to third shop where the more powerful units maintain an exp lead from simply doing more combat. (In the case of MNSilias/SorcOdin this is a burial. Snowballs snowball yo). Even ignoring this at third shop we can simply skip every single chapter where Xander or Leo would outpreform our early joins.

Rig is unessecary but worth noting as you seem to feel stats matter for... reasons?

Bad example, we have no reliable rig at Kaze join and he joins maingame after Camilia who we can already outstat at join without the rig.

[Conquest tiering discussion]

20 minutes ago, Steeles4500 said:

I read it the first time, and my biggest issue is saying that early joins units are better then late join units on their join.

That is complete rubbish, Odin only has a 26% chance to reach Leo's base speed, a .2% chance to reach his base mag (lmao), and a 42% chance to reach his base def, If we take him 20/20. His bases and growth are not competitive at all with him, Odin has the Nos meme but he wont outstat leo on join.

Also why discount xander because he has Siegfried? Thats why hes overpowered in the first place,if you take nos away from odin hes E rank too.

And xanders bases are way better then silas. To do the same 20/20 argument again, Silas only has a chance of 11% to reach Xander def on 20/20 promo, a 50% chance to reach his speed (which is already pretty bad to begin with) and a 16% chance of getting his str. These are insanely Bad odds that they will hold up.

This is also a big reason as to why child units are so good, since they join after ch18 with a free promotion and actual base stats, and inherit nice skills from their early game fathers and mothers.

Xander has a 0% chance to reach Silias's bases for 8 chapters of the game (+paralouges) and needs 5-10 maps to reach Silias's A+ and S support modifiers, skills, and Seigbert is not named Sophie. 

Similarly by the time Leo joins Odin has already dipped for skills, and has A+ and S going. Also Ophelia.

Xander and Leo can catch up as early as ch21 but their early counterparts are picking up x/15 skills as early as ch22 with stat's buffed 2-3 over average by a light rig.

[Conquest tiering discussion]

35 minutes ago, Steeles4500 said:

If he classes into cav at level 8 at chapter 8 "reasonably" he can only get 3 speed levels by the time hes 20/20 (reasonable is any growth with over a 90% chance, and arthur has a sub 90% chance to get more then 3 speed procs in that time so its not reliable enough)

His stack options would be quite decent as an early percy promo but there is no way hes getting to promo level 15 by chapter 10, even with all the paralouges the xp would diminish too fast. Also on the whole child units are better left for later to recruit because then they get bases guaranteed, which is much more reliable and makes late game conquest more consistent. Camilla, paladin jakob, corrin and/or silas can wipe CQ early game regardless so rolling the dice with that much invest to get a unit like that is unnecessary. If you were gonna dump a unit all that XP it would be corrin, since she one of the more reliable units because she gets a stupid amount of levels to grow, high xp gain and all the classes you would ever want. (a +spd corrin who classes into wyvern at level 10 and promotes at 20 has a 98% chance of capping speed at both 20/x and x/20) 

It's a PMU. We're really NOT supposed to be in ChPercy that early so the exp exists. We can break things way harder than 15 at ch10 my dude.

Arthur is still xl15 fighter after ch11.

Hp 28+5/Str 17/Mag 1/Skl 15/Spd12/Lck10/Def15/Res6

After Buffs that's Str23/Spd18/Def17.

Vs base Cam's

30hp/21str/19spd/18def.

Weeeeeeeeeeeee

That entire child meta statement is wrong.

[Conquest tiering discussion]

5 minutes ago, Steeles4500 said:

ok, birthday mechanic isnt allowed in "efficency" so i never considered it

also good god you must have fed him ALL the xp for him to get to promo level 15, basically every paralouge available. 

No. He just soloed the right side of Percy's map.

What's promotion? This is fighter Arthur.

[Conquest tiering discussion]

14 minutes ago, Steeles4500 said:

Ok so how in the mother of God did your arthur outstat camilla?
I ran it through the binomials and its not even possible for him to have as much speed or def as high by her join. His raw damage output might be able to reach compareable levels at full invest but still yet the rng involved is massive. You also arent exactly able to reclass constantly early game so even with rigging you would need to spend an insane amount of time to rig the hell outta that arthur.

What rig? He had +6/+6 from birthday/tonics/meal and was xl15.

Percy was similarly buffed, (+4/+4) holding a 1 hp Corncob, and was generated by a pair of xl15's before ch10.

[Conquest tiering discussion]

48 minutes ago, Steeles4500 said:

Hey @joshcja 

what did you mean units will always get the stats we want when we want, are you referring to stacking?

EDIT: OK so i think i get what you meant. Reclassing means that we can change the growth seed of our units at will and therefore rig growths, or am i wrong?
Needless to say i dont think rigging is really something to be considered.

Yup. It's reclassing.

Even ignoring a hard rig we can just reclass on dead/really darn good levels for skills and wind up 2+ ahead on benchmark stats

[Conquest tiering discussion]

1 minute ago, Azure the Scale Tipper said:

You know, Serenes Forest might need to make a newer, more accurate pairing guide. Anyone willing to do so?

I tried once. 59 pages later I said aw heeell naw.

[Conquest tiering discussion]

2 hours ago, Shoblongoo said:

Yeah the recurring issue I keep having with Odin (tried him again) is that if he gets on a bad streak with his first few speed growths--while statically over time that will even out--he gets to a point where he just gets doubled by everything and falls too far behind to warrant ongoing effort.

Maybe not as bad as I first made him out to be.

But I'm still finding if your looking for units that consistently do whats supposed to make them "good," hes one of the least consistent units across playthroughs.

Sometimes he gets there.

Sometimes he gets stuck on single-digit speed and drops off HARD when hes supposed to be taking off. 
_____

This may be purely anecdotal and not reflective of the experiences other players have had with him, but Odin for me is a unit that seems to being particularly susceptible to getting RNG screwed.  

Mind sharing his stats,  level, and your chapter?

[Conquest tiering discussion]

Not a direct argument on any of the previous posters but more of a comment on the nature of bases/growths in fates.

Ignoring stack mechanics for a moment and assuming we need bases+growths for things.

Averages have no place in fates L. We  can know from recruitment the exact growths of every unit in every class for the entire game.

Assumed Growths/Bases tend to ignore multiclassing, mostly because it totally ruins the premise by giving an on-demand "perfect for a given value of perfect" on any given level up and by allowing manipulable bases.

In short units gain the stats we want, when we want them to. It's not the perfect control of gba seed manip, but it's good enough.

The only non-replicable units in terms of stat's rather than everyotherdamnthing are EXTREME outliers with the cap's and everyotherdamnthing to back or (Ophelia).

[best class in terms of birthright?]

28 minutes ago, JSND Alter Dragon Boner said:

Ok for real tho, Berserker only start becoming usable in FE7 so i don't stress it that much, the damn weapon type only started sitting in the same seat in FE8, and good in 9 onwards and we're still 15 games in ffs

Eh, 7/15 games (or all but one of the games they exist in?) ain't bad.

[best class in terms of birthright?]

6 hours ago, Critical Sniper said:

I'm not sure if this is sarcasm or not.

Is Levant Shadow Mir? 

 

Also dude, you dont need to quote everything I said you can selecta specific bit and the website prompts you if thats what you want to quote.

Yes.

Oh no, a berserker with low luck. Never in the history of Fire Emblem has this been worth using on every map for the rest of the game /sarcasm.

Make shorter posts or @ folks for single line replies.

Also what Zoran said.