[Which one]

But it doesn't DO anything for her. She loses her AS but what exactly does she gain? Does she go from 2RKOing anything to ORKOing anything because of it? Isadora certainly does since she can at least wield powerful weapons.

Well, it would definitely make her easier to train (better avo, earlier doubling with fire and much earlier doubling with thunder), and continues to benefit her post-promotion. The big issue with the Body Ring is that it comes so late, many silver weapons are so light, and HHM enemy AS speeds tend to be so stagnant (hell, my 7/-- Florina is doubling enemies in Living Legend atm with an iron lance) that there isn't as much competition for it as some other stat boosters. Body ring is great for Athos because it cuts turns in Final for sure, nice for Isadora because it makes her a decent alternative to Sain/Kent, and nice for Nino because it makes training her a little easier (and because Nino also tends to cap speed, making a Speedwing a bit of a waste in comparison).

It would also be nice for the pegasi, but I'm not sure if the Body Ring would push them into doubling enemies they normally would not with a javelin.

[the funds rank]

This seals the deal unless you've been stupid with money. You should have plenty of money to use nicer weapons like Braves or Silvers so don't worry about that.

Heh, I remember the second quote from your sig.

[the funds rank]

while i've managed to 4 and 5 star it in the past, i figure there has to be a more feastable way of doing so.

share your ways of keeping it up.

1) Don't use Ocean Seal or Fell Contract or recruit Farina.

2) Steal every promotion item in the game, and certainly the silver card.

3) Spend every last gold you have with the silver card...buy an ocean seal in Victory or Death if you have the money lying around, it's essentially 25,000G in free assets.

4) Generally, Eliwood and Lyn aren't worth the money to promote. But you can certainly afford to promote one if you so wish.

5) Prepromos help, but I never was close enough on 5* funds to need to use them. Pent is probably an exception...he's as good as Erk when both are 20/20, with great bases, and A staff rank, and he's cheaper to use.

6) Use hammnerne on Brave Bow/Brave Lance, Warp, Fortify, Wolf Beil, or Rapier.

7) Do Night of Farewells.

8) Funds rank is harder for EHM than for HHM, because HHM gives you extra no-funds-req chapters that nets you at least a Dracoshield, a Talisman, Eclipse, a couple of stat boosters, a Runesword, and some stuff I'm sure I'm missing...that's a good 50kG in extra assets, and HHM has a slightly lower funds standard to boot.

[Rate this idea: str and con dictate a unit's inventory size]

I have toyed with the idea of having crit rates be overall higher, but reduce crit damage to x2 instead of x3.

I have been advocating this for forever.

Also, for LUK to have some other effect (weaker bonus to crit chance than SKL, maybe), simply because it's probably one of the weakest stats (only decent when coupled with high SPD to push AVO into the range of absurd or maybe in FE6's stupidly high crit bonuses for SMs/berserkers).

[13th has officially lost his mind. (FE11 H5 mode playthrough log.)]

This run is going on hold for now. I will resume at a later date.

I have decided I want to S-Rank HHM first.

If you ever need help with it, just send me a message. I'd be glad to help as much as I can.

[Which one]

Stop being stupid. Donny-boy already proved that 22 AS is pointless at that part of the game because about 18 AS is sufficient to double everything around you. Oh, big deal, Nino doubles a couple more endgame bosses (she still does shit damage, mind you). Whoopie. This means something because...?

I was merely casually thinking about the Nino discusssion earlier in the thread and about how she has horrible CON, thus making the body ring good for her. I'm not trying to continue that discussion, just point out that a body ring would make it easier to train her pre-promotion by basically removing her AS loss from fire (and making thunder only a 1 AS loss), and continue to benefit her post-premotion.

[Which one]

In my logged efficiency run (fuck you too Cog of Destiny, I will 6 turn you someday), Isadora was more useful than Sain, as she was needed for a swift clear of Kinship's Bond, and Crazed Beast. Mind you, my Sain is slightly strength screwed, but I doubt it would make a difference, he's not doubling anything anyway.

I'm assuming your efficiency run tended to have heavy use of Marcus in the beginning, thus making your Sain/Kent have lower levels than in a S rank run. I mean, if Sain/Kent are lower than 14/-- or 15/--, and especially is Sain is RNG screwed, and you're essentially thrown a free paladin in Kinship's Bond, I see her definitely being more useful than in S rank runs.

I personally just don't like efficiency playthroughs (not saying I don't try to low turn as much as I can on my S rank runs); I'm not sure why, I just don't find them as fun as S ranking, where the requirements are more...uniform. My favorite runs are actually seeing how low of a turn count I can get while still S ranking (I think my S rank EHM was just over 300 turns -- I might try to beat that someday). What I'm trying to say in my rambling is that I can't really argue who's best in a type of run I don't have experience with.

[Meg: Why such hate?]

i thought so.

it seems like Fiona has one of the worst siturations period in FE history.

All I can say is that you CAN train Meg in HM provided she dings SPD with a BEXP level up (which is common) after you get her AND use her in 1-4.

As for Fiona...IIRC she has similar base stats to Meg, at a higher level, at a much later (and harder) point in part 1. She was literally doubled by almost everything with any AS loss from weapons at all, and she's stupidly reliant on certain procs (SPD, STR, if I remember back in April) just to not be ORKO'd, much less function. I swear to god I tried to use her for the hell of it, and I COULDN'T. I literally couldn't have her finish off enemies because she's rocking a 50% hit rate and dies on the counter if she misses -- it's so pathetic when you need a forged weapon just to steal kills. You can go into 1-4 where almost nothing ORKO's Meg at 4/-- and (with another SPD proc) probably nothing does at 5/--. Meg's just a little annoying to raise in part 1, and optimistically can be about as hard to train as Aran (just looking at the sheer volume of numbers comparing Aran/Meg in part 1).

Oh, and for some stupid reason, Fiona can't be fielded in 1-8, and at least Meg CAN climb walls in 1-E.

P.S. I'm not trying to open up an old wound. I'm just saying that Fiona almost makes Wendy look good. I think IS was thinking her skill combined with her high base magic for a melee unit would solve these issues, but it really doesn't, esp. in HM.

[Which one]

That's because 20/1 Kent by that point in the game is completely unreasonable. Efficiency players who try hard have Kent at 14/1 at best, and he loses some important parameters to her. You also said yourself that units "shouldn't" be hitting 20/1 until like chapter 28 or so in ranked.

This is true and generally held out when I was doing EHM S rank and will hold for about 90% of characters in my HHM S rank.

The problem is that Sain and Kent is that they are just so much more useful once you hit HHM for low turning (high MOV, Kent has been reliably doubling for me since recruitment, my Sain actually ended up blessed and was rocking 32 ATK with a silver lance, which allowed him to OHKO Kishuna, AND Sain doubles a fair amount of time) that them hitting 18/-- to 20/-- kind of happened without me intending to do it. For honesty's sake, I am doing a Marcus-less run, which means that a cav is slightly more desired on a couple of maps, but I can't say it's hard for Sain and/or Kent to be slightly above the average of 14/-- or 15/-- you'll have for some units at that time.

Actually, in my log, I've just promoted Kent right in Living Legend, and still posted competitive experience and turn counts.

Isadora also can't get hit by enemies in chapter 22 if she leverages the weapon triangle correctly. Her offense is also actually really good because few units can boast both 13 str, enough AS to double, and access to silvers. She, Marcus, and Sain are exclusive to the club of units who can ORKO chapter 23x enemies (even disregarding her 8 move).

I don't know why you so obstinately hold on to this position. You said yourself that you have followed my videos. I have proven time and again that a majority of prepromotes are adequate, if not optimal, for use.

In 22, I had a Lowen with 11 STR who could double and ORKO the swordreaver fighters with an iron lance while blocking off the breakable wall, and my 2 STR/1 SPD blessed Kent could ORKO anything but wyverns (and I think he could come close to doing it to them with a steel lance). Isadora does ORKO, but you really feel her lack of durability (like I said, she les TEN less health and a good 4 less DEF on average than a typical 20/-- Kent) and her ATK in Kinship's Bond looks better than it is because of her silver sword/short spear. If you gave the weapons to Kent, he could probably do the same thing as her (I mean, she has a SLIGHT lead on Kent if he walks in 15/--, but I was able to get him from 18/-- to 20/-- with him getting 6-7 experience per kill with some enemies left over...15/-- Kent could hit 18/-- at least by the chapter's end, closing the gap with her).

I can't say for 23x, although I think my 20/1 Kent could be damn close to ORKO'ing at worst.

She's not horrible (and that 50% SPD growth...pretty freaking sweet, I won't lie), and probably pretty solid overall, but in order to close her CON gap to reduce AS loss, you have to take a hit to funds, and I could just as well use those same funds to use an energy drop on Kent and get him to 15 STR/15 SPD by 18/-- or, in my case, 19 STR/18 SPD by 20/1. Isadora's 13 STR/16 SPD (or 14 effective with iron axes and body ring) is at best equal to Kent when she first joins -- Kent eventually outgrows her, though.

As for your videos, I think many of them are 0% growth ones, which aren't really fair to the non-prepromos, who can never exceed base stats and use their main advantage (namely, higher growths and slightly better stats at prepromo base level). That being said, I've slowly softened my stance on prepromos -- it's not fair to put somebody like Pent or FE7 Marcus in the same league as Isadora or maybe Hawkeye.

EDIT: Sorry for the tardiness...first day of work and all.

EDIT2: @ Colonel M: I'm actually pretty shocked at how close many of Geitz's growths are to Bartre's. Barte technically wins at equal level, and I think especially in RES, but holy crap he's annoying to raise in HHM. Also, dondon obviously doesn't love all crappy characters, looking back at my somewhat infamous "Meg" topic recently.

EDIT3: I think Nino might be second (well, maybe third behind Athos) for best Body Ring candidate (if used, obv.). I mean, looking at the numbers from before, body ring basically removes any AS loss from Fire tomes pre-promotion and AS loss from Thunder post-promotion. She'd be a complete beast with a body ring. 24 ATK with 20 AS at 20/1 or 26 ATK with 22 AS at 20/5? OM NOM NOM. And it does push her into doubling range with many characters in Final and out of doubled range for Lloyd, however relevent (or irrelevent) it is.

[Which one]

I am exaggerating her worth but she is a lot better than people give her credit for.

I guess I don't get the love for Isadora. A 20/1 Kent basically has 10 HP, 1.6 STR, 4.5 SKL, 0.55 SPD, 3.75 DEF, 0.75 RES, and 3 CON on her at base (and since pretty much everything except an iron sword has >6 WT, that means he realistically has an extra 2-3 AS on her). She has...4.2 LUK on him. His growths are universally better than hers sans SPD (she has 50 versus his 45) and LUK (she has 45 to his 20). Kent also has craploads of availability, eseentially having an average starting level of 8/-- or 9/-- at Noble Lady of Caelin and having plenty of uses (because of his high MOV alone) and thus opportunities to gain levels in HHM.

And while Marcus has the whole "Use me in early game, GTFO, or go insane like KoT", Isadora has "Oh hai~ I'm going to try to help you in Kinship's Bond, but I get nearly 2RKO'd by many of the enemies there and sort of fail in attack without silvers/short spears."

If you want to use her, by all means do so. It's not like she's Dorcas or my Bartre who fails to gain a point in SPD for 8-10 levels...she won't fail, but she isn't optimal.

[Which one]

Isadora's pretty solid. Nothing incredible, but pretty solid.

I can't stand her base DEF, though, ugh. I could literally promote Hector mode base Sain and tie her in DEF...and the 3 CON difference between her and Sain/Kent doesn't help matters, since her big benefit is the extra SPD she has.

I never use her.

[Which one]

KoT you remind me of myself, your a pretty good FE player but your opinions are very different from several professionals and sometimes end up with one sided debates that are normally not in your/our favor.

the only differences is that i stopped trying to pretend like i know it all when i talk to a person that does know it all

It's not that I believe I know it all (and, yes, I'm accused of it a fair amount), it's more that I tend to be extremely stubborn/defensive conerning my opinions which (I think) makes me sound falsely demeaning.

I mean, Nino has a serious issue with leveling, for sure. But her stats post-promotion do compare with Pent's and blow Erk's out of the water (which, ofc, they should, since Erk is available from early Lyn/E/H mode on). She can become a great character overall (and you'd be hard-pressed to find a reason not to field her for most chapters if she's close in level to the main party), and IS better than Pent at killing Darin and Brendan and technically Jerme. Pent just has the A staves where people can just go "Staves, ****ing awesome!" (because FE7 staves really are) and a lead on magic on both Serra and Prissy, making him slightly more potent at using Warp/Rescue than either of the two ladies. Realistically, though, you can go Serra/Priscilla + Nino and do roughly as well as Pent + whomever, unless the extra 1 or possibly 2 range on warp/rescue makes a significant difference (Final isn't THAT big of a map, though, by FE7 standards). And the more I think about it, the more I come to the conclusion that Pent + Nino beats both of them.

Don't get me wrong, I'm hardly saying Pent is anything less than great (and he's even better when HM EXP cuts mean you're frankly not even getting Erk and Serra to the point where they break even with him statistically). I'm just saying Nino can be in that same league as well. Now, if I can't get Nino reliably up in my HHM run, I'll personally post my failue on this thread for all to see. I'm not too proud to admit I'm wrong when it's a logical conclusion, but I don't just lie down and accept anything vets here say as gospel -- I simply want experience/numbers to back up their opinion, which they usually have.

P.S. I made the stupid mistake of leaving Erk/Lucius too low level going into Living Legend, making the level stupidly difficult to low turn while stealing/digging up everything of value. Mainly, it's because Lucius is OHKO'd by the initial wyverns with a 50% hit rate, and Erk is nearly OHKO'd by them with approximately the same avoid and only has 5 RES for some reason. It's coming down to luck, which is simply not going my way atm.

Sorry, eclipse, it's going to be a couple days before I get a good enough turn count to move on unless I somehow find a better way to do the chapter without screwing my experience rank .

[Alternate 3-E(spoilers)]

I seriously doubt that anyone would choose the DB, especially as they start Part 3 extremely under-levelled...

Heh, some people would do it just for the challenge. Trust me.

[Which one]

In EHM, I would actually say 13/0 is a reasonable number, I got her to 17.83, so 20/2 isn't outrageous. HHM, she doesn't stand a chance though, since she only has 28x to get exp, and she's OHKO'd by everything, so she won't get as much. IIRC I had her coming out at 13/0 there with the main intent being feeding her and Bartre kills.

And comparing Nino to Pent in final is pretty useless, since they both can't kill anything, so Pent autowins because staff rank (although he autowins anyhow).

I wouldn't say I putzed around NoF on my S rank EHM.

@ Elieson: I'm too stubborn for my own good, I know. How in the world do these silly arguments start up, anyways?

[Which one]

Assassins cap spd at 30.

Uhai has 25 SPD (or 26, I can't remember) on everything but HHM. Assassins double him on those modes, which was what I was referring to. As for his 27 SPD on HHM, all numbers are averages and IIRC there's a chance Uhai can have 26 SPD depending on HHM bonuses, which means a capped assassin will double. Again, this is a silly point, hence the "splitting hairs" comment. 99.9% of the time he won't be doubled. Looking back, it was probably a dick comment to bring up.

Utterly pointless because Ursula has 27 res. Nino will not even be able to damage her with Elfire.

Noted.

It's a Runesword, and he still has 20 AS, 17 res. At 20/8, Nino does 6 x2 HP damage with Fire.

Crap, mixed the names up. Forgive me. I was looking more at WT and thus effective AS rather than anything else.

Nope, once again, you are dead wrong, because there is no tome that unpromoted Nino can wield that will not cause her to lose AS.

Fine, I forgot the 1 AS loss from fire pre-promotion. Make it 20/1 then...either way, it's not like she's not going to hit it if you use her.

Once again, this is assuming that Nino is using Fire against 23 and 20 res, respectively. At 20/8, she does 1 HP damage and 4 x2 HP damage, respectively.

Fine, change it to thunder and add roughly 2-3 levels to each of those values.

Kenneth has 30 res.

Again, noted. I only did a pure AS analysis, I was too lazy to check RES.

Nino doubles with Fire against 69 HP, 18 res. This is 4 x2 HP damage and she requires 9 rounds of combat to KO.

At 20/7, I believe she'll double him with thunder too, for 9x2 damage. I merely listed the bare minimum that she'd double at.

No. Stop. This analysis is completely wrong. All we've learned from your misinformed blathering is that Nino and Pent perform terribly combat-wise against final chapter bosses. But there is something that Pent does that Nino can't do: he can warp Athos into a room and watch him wreck things. Then he can rescue Athos across from half of the map and watch him wreck things again.

It was honestly quite hilarious watching you try to argue that Nino is better than Pent in final while you inadvertently admitted that Nino practically cannot damage any of the bosses. It's like watching Sarah Palin make a speech.

Alright, let's be completely honest here. Everything in the last level falls flat in the face of Athos + Body Ring + Luna; IS, while beefing the crap out of the morphs to provide a challenge, forgot that Luna existed. We could use this logic to argue here that Nils/Priscilla/Serra could be god tier units in this chapter (basically any combination that allows you to rescue + second action + warp Athos). Pent may be able to warp/rescue (as can your healers), but Nino does double Darin (which Pent usually will not), which at least makes her a great candidate to clear that room so Athos doesn't have to. And she's better at chipping, assuming it ever applies.

With that being said, I concede.

[Which one]

The point Life was trying to make with all the earlygame characters is that they all have a lower or equal base level compared to Nino, so they will contribute just as much or more to the exp rank over the course of the game. When people say "Nino is great for the exp rank" it's kind of an overstatement, as she contributes just the same as anyone else. And Nino has issues getting these kills (since she needs to be babied to get them) whilst the earlygame characters have no such trouble for a long portion of the game.

Oh no, I get the point Life (Kefka) was making.

I'm trying to make the counterpoint that Nino will get more experience per kill than pretty much any other unit you're going to be fielding AT THAT POINT OF THE GAME, with bases/growths that allow her to have the combat of a unit a few levels higher (she's more like many 8/-- units at 5/--, and like 17/-- or 18/-- units at 13/--). Having her kill unpromotes early on and promotes at mid-first tier, you're realistically going to look at an extra 800-1k experience from training versus feeding the experience to a 20/1 unit (or around that level), which, at the very worst, allows you to shave your turn count off a S rank EHM run by forcing you to farm the FFO arena less (and I doubt having Nino snipe kills when she's free deployment in NoF is going to cost that many turns).

I'm not saying Nino will make or break your experience rank (although it can if you don't use FFO arena that much in S rank EHM and it comes down to the wire), but you're certainly rewarded in a S rank game for training her. You may slightly lose in combat rank, but that rank is way too easy in FE7 that any effects from that usually matter anyways.

It's not hard for Nino to get to the level (statistically, not like actual level) of Erk relatively quickly, and with better growths, I'm just going to field her instead of him. I mean, I can't argue that Pent is pretty awesome, especially for a prepromote, but Nino's "Est" status means she can beat him in combat by Final and be close to him once she promotes. I'd sooner drop Serra/Prissy/Erk for Pent than Nino, if I were going to do it.

[Which one]

Hate to break it to you but Nino is less of a godsend in the Exp department than... let's look at the list.

Eliwood

Lowen

Rebecca

Dorcas (when not trained via Lyn Mode)

Bartre

Hector

Serra (same as Dorcas)

Matthew (same as Dorcas)

Guy

Priscilla

Lyn (same as Dorcas)

Wil (same as Dorcas)

Sain (same...)

Kent (same...)

Florina (same...)

Raven

Lucius (same...)

So essentially half of the earlygame characters have the same effect as Nino on the Exp rank. Less depending on who gets levels in Lyn Mode.

As for Nino in Ranking runs, I've tried. She's... well, she has to eat up a lot of kills and you have to be patient with her and by the time CoD rolls around... yeah, Erk's still better than her, never mind Pent. I didn't have to worry about draining Exp and protecting them very carefully for the majority of the game.

I mean, you've done EHM (and maybe HHM?) S rank, you know what I mean when you really have to spread experience amongst characters. A couple months ago, when I was getting back into FE7 S ranking, I was looking at your old logs for reference, and I know you were getting almost everybody to 10/--, closer to 15/--, trying to desparately make the EHM 5* XP rank (which I technically never found out if you did since you never posted the final results). Nino essentially gains the experience of a level 5, with the base stats closer to a level 8, and she gains roughly 1.3 levels worth of stats per level (as compared to like Erk or Lucius or...).

I know Nino on EHM S rank wasn't OHKO'd by most non-promoted units as early as 8/--, and her avoid gets pretty high pretty fast. During CoD (assuming she got to 13/-- in NoF, which isn't hard), she essentially gains noticeably more experience while being on par combat-wise with your 19/-- to 20/1 units after gaining a couple levels on the knights (again, not very hard...high avoid, mediocre hit, not OHKO'd even with a silver lance IIRC). And when the generals leak out? Ninis' Grace (1 or 2 uses, max) + forest tile does the trick.

And Erk is never better than Pent. So what if Erk may statically match Pent at 20/20. Are you Snowy's new alt or something? Pent's got freaking A Staves. End of argument.

No, no, I'm hardly disagreeing with this. While I truly wish Erk surpassed Pent, he's at best equal at 20/20 to Pent and just ends up to be more work for less reward. His only advantage is better availability, and tbh I never even find THAT too useful besides maybe in Living Legend, where I scrounge up every caster/flier I have.

P.S. As I've said, I haven't done HHM in a good 5 years. I honestly can't recall CoD's unit placement. If it's way different than I remember (i.e. It's the only mode without the knights/generals), then I'm wrong about Nino's ease of training, period. (EDIT: Yep, it is TOTALLY different. How the hell did I not remember this? I'm going to withdraw my argument, although I will honor eclipse's challenge).

[Which one]

I believe you're doing a log of ranked HHM run right now? DO WHAT'S BOLDED.

Fine, challenge accepted. She was 20/2 on my EHM run, and I'm pretty sure I can reasonably get her to around that in HHM. We'll see, maybe I'm wrong.

[Which one]

Uh, there's something Nino has called terrible Con and it makes her unable to use the stronger tomes without massive AS loss. Nino doesn't get 26 AS btw until like 20/10 which is impossible and her taking an Elfire reduces her AS from 26 to 20. At 20/1, it drops it from 20 (her average) to 14. She also only has 15 magic (23 attack) with Elfire. Base Pent has 26 attack with Elfire and 15 AS and didn't need extreme training and a guiding ring to get up to that point. Promoted Nino loses AS from any tome but Fire. That's pathetic.

Also it's physically impossible for anyone to double Uhai and Lloyd and impossible for Nino to ever double Jerme and Ursula as well. So she's not good at fighting such bosses.

Technically, a speed capped assassin can reliably double Uhai (27 AS) in all but HHM, and possibly in HHM, since 27 speed is only the average and HHM bonuses do fluctuate, IIRC. But I'm splitting hairs here. However, even in the case of Uhai, Nino can get to the point in a reasonable HM S rank run (20/7) where Uhai will not double her, while Pent will always be doubled.

Ursula has 18 AS with her tome, so Nino can double her by 20/4, while Pent has to be 20/18.

Jerme has 22 AS with his Lightbrand, so Nino can double him by 20/11 (a bit in the high range, but possible if she walks into the level @ 20/10), while Pent will never double and gets doubled unless 20/8 on average (easy enough to do).

Darin, probably the biggie here and with 16 AS, is doubled by a 20/-- Nino (no joke), while Pent has to be 20/13 (with enough physic/warp use, he could reach it).

Lloyd, with 29 AS, will double Nino until 20/9 and always double Pent. So Nino MAY not be doubled depending on the run, but Pent is basically screwed.

Linus, with 20 AS, is doubled by a 20/7 Nino but never by Pent.

Kenneth, with 13 AS, is doubled by a 15/-- Nino and a base Pent.

Brendan, with 18 AS, is the same as Ursula; Nino doubles by 20/4, Pent has to be 20/18.

So, looking at a 20/7 Nino and a 20/11 Pent by Final (that's 20/7 Nino from my EHM S rank run and a 20/11 Pent from General_Horace's HHM S rank run, who basically used a full prepromote team after he reached his experience rank):

Nino doubles Ursula, Darin, Linus, Kenneth, and Brendan, and is only doubled by Lloyd. She loses doubling Linus on average on Thunder tome, but that's it.

Pent doubles Kenneth, and is doubled by Jerme and Lloyd.

20/11 Pent has a 2 MAG gain on 20/7 Nino, so Nino has to be doubling for like 6 damage with her Fire tome for Pent to tie her with a thunder tome. I'm pretty sure Nino wins in the combat department. However, as I'll state a second time, Pent has A rank staff, which makes him more flexible (however, I can and have literally fielded like a 15/-- Priscilla and have her heal sufficiently with a physic staff, and watch as she gets double the experience as Pent per use, or field Serra, who can also use staves and gets a bonus to combat experience; when trying to meet an experience rank, both are important). I'd give the edge to Nino on a S rank run, which heavily encourages her training and Serra's/Prissy's fielding (either from double staff XP or increased combat XP in second tier), but Pent the edge on unranked.

As for Elfire...how often do you honestly use Elfire, since it happens to be heavy enough to prevent Nino, Erk, AND Pent from reliably doubling. It's uses are rather rare compared to Fire/Thunder, and Nino only loses 1 AS form Thunder as a sage.

I don't really give a shit if Nino has good bases for her level and Erk has "average" growth rates for a character. If Nino is unable to help me kill enemies and gets like, OHKO'd in return, she is hindering the completion of the map while Erk is not.

How about I put it this way -- Nino is so much better statistically that she ties a 20/-- Erk in as few as 8-10 kills on Night of Farewells. You make it sound like it's hard to raise her, but really, a 13/-- to 15/-- Nino is roughly as strong as a 20/-- Erk...not to mention she literally does gain like 80-100 experience sniping a promoted unit kill and about half that for unpromoted units (which I think she ends up ORKO'ing by 13/--). Oh, and to sweeten the deal, I believe she's free in NoF...doesn't cost a deployment slot.

Even in a Ranked Run, Nino's still better benched since I have other shitheads who can contribute to EXP with better durability and offense. In an efficiency run, I don't really need an extra combat unit that requires all that effort and still doesn't come out better than anyone else on my team.

Not sure what to say...she's pretty much self-sustainable by turn 10-12 of HM NoF and turn 6-ish in NM NoF. And she has 1-2 range to prevent counters. She's not hard to raise. At all.

Funds rank is hard to screw up and going fast on Night of Farewells is not going to hurt it. Simply don't promote Dart, don't recruit Farina, and don't be an idiot when you buy things with the Silver Card.

I actually mis-typed on that. I meant to say Funds rank isn't that huge of a huge deal with smart use of the silver card and stealing, which means you can usually end up promoting like 8 or so units whilst still recruiting Farina and meeting the 5* Funds ranking. A big advantage of prepromos is that you don't need a promotion item, but since I'm going to 5* funds either way really, why not use them?

Prepromotes are awesome in a ranked run. They always contribute to Funds, they usually contribute to Combat, and they almost always contribute to Tactics. Pent can also contribute to Experience since he uses staves and thus can gain experience without needing to take away a kill from another unit.

Yeah, you're right, I always fail to 5* combat, and 5* funds is SO hard... Also, as I mentioned earlier, Pent gains half the XP from using staves as an unpromoted healer and doesn't benefit from the combat XP bonus like your promoted healers. And, if you're only using him for staves to prevent him from trashing the experience rank, Serra tends to do that well enough that Pent is a little bit overkill.

Tbh, I think I'd be more inclined to replace Serra in an unranked run with Pent, since at 20/20, she never beats him in MAG, slightly beats him in SPD, beats him in RES (but it starts to get a little bit ridiculous past 20 RES), and loses terribly in DEF (which probably matters more). She, at best, ties with him at 20/20, and that's only because of her better growths. He's realistically hands down better every level before then, and can use every staff in the game. Seriously, if we're going this route, field Nino AND Pent, treating Pent as a healer w/ benefits and dumping Serra ASAP.

[Which one]

But, all of the other anima users are far better than nino.

My playstyle doesn't really work if the army has to slow down to protect Nino, Wil, Dart, or some other squishy underleveled unit.

At least Raven, Guy, Legault, and Heath can reliably do their job without massive babying.

If you have problems raising Nino, don't raise Nino. But I honestly never had to slow down my army to raise her, just have her walk slightly behind my main forces and finish off kills that they chip. And even that lasts for maybe 6-7 turns (she levels up FAST), and you really only have to get her to 10/-- (NM) or 13/-- (HM) for her to just stand in the forest tile on Cogs of Destiny and trash knights/generals, who traditionally have crap resistance. Her high speed + forest avo means she doesn't get hit much, and you always have a use or two of Ninis' Grace if you're worried about her dying.

Nino, on average, can gain about a level per turn if you do it right.

...But before this becomes a pissing match between me and dondon/Colonel M (I can see it coming), let's get back to the main topic: Prepromote of choice.

Harken: He's probably the hardest of the three to get (not saying much), since you can get Karel instead if you screw it up. In a couple key stats (SPD, SKL, mostly), he's probably a poor man's Raven, but is generally considered a better unit than Karel and does come with a RES/DEF lead on Raven that lasts until 20/20 (although Raven's HP is generally about 5-6 higher by the levels you'll se in late-game), which should be of note in a game with status staves and a fair number of casters. He also has a slightly higher CON, making his lower speed than Raven less noticeable when using the Hand Axe. He's also 20/8 on starting, which can be an issue if you're gunning to 5* experience rank -- not to say he shouldn't or can't be used, but you don't want to use him very often until late-game or until your XP total is solid.

Hawkeye: Kind of mediocre growths, but he doesn't have that bad of bases, and he does come with that crit bonus. Combined with a killer axe, he's your best bet to top 50-55% crit on a unit in a S rank run. He's also definitely useful in HHM Living Legend and is required to be fielded in Genesis.

Geitz: His growth rates, upon inspection, are actually only slightly less than Bartre's; combined with his bases, he turns out slightly worse than an equal level Bartre in HP/STR, notably worse in RES, but has a 2 point gain in SPD, which might be nice, since I can probably see 19 AS doubling a little more than 17 AS would. He also will likely have a 2 level lead on Bartre by late-game if you've been reliably training Bartre. That being said, Bartre is the sheer definition of a mediocre character, particularly since he will never double and enemy DEF is rarely high enough for his high STR to shine, so saying Geitz is roughly equal to Bartre isn't exactly saying much.

[Which one]

What some people like you don't seem to realize is that "potential" is wasted if it is no more useful to have 26 spd than it is to have 18 spd. The result is that prepromoted units don't generally give you less in the end even if they're worse in terms of parameters, because past a certain point, an extra point in any stat just doesn't really matter.

But yes, you guessed correctly - that makes you a closed-minded idiot.

Nino going from level 5 to level 20 in 7 turns on chapter 28x sounds pretty impossible to me.

This is such a silly post.

1) 18 vs. 26 SPD is not meaningless, although I'd argue that you're going to be doubling a fair number of enemies anyways past around 18-20 SPD, even on HHM, since they like to throw more enemies rather than harder enemies much of the time. However, 26 SPD means you're going to be doubling faster, harder enemies, and it's always nice to have on Final (Uhai, Linus, Lloyd). Never mind the 16 extra avoid you so casually ignore, especially since each point of avoid is worth more than the last, generally speaking. Never mind that it's generally difficult to get to a point where extra STR/MAG/SKL don't matter unless you consistently ORKO even the strongest enemies on HHM with freakishly high hit rates.

2) I never said Nino goes from level 5 to level 20 in Night of Farewells alone. She usually goes to level 5 to around level 13 in most S rank logs I've seen, and with her nice bases (for a level 5) and great growths, a 13/-- is about statistically equal to a 20/-- Erk (average level for the more preferred units on a S rank HM run generally is about 20/1 - 20/3), which is probably the closest comparison I'm going to draw, since Erk has fairly "average" growth rates for a character and is the same class as Nino. I said Nino tends to be close to the average party level (around 20/-- to 20/1) by the end of Cogs of Destiny -- and you'd want to feed kills to her for the experience rank, the same reason you'd want to "share the love" concerning experience throughout the whole game. Even if its unranked HM, you're giving up a couple levels on Erk to raise Nino from 13/-- to 20/1, who is, at 13/--, probably only slightly worse off stat wise and who will end up better than him as a 20/1 sage than Erk would as a 20/4 sage.

3) 7 turns for Night of Farewells is pretty stupid, mainly because it makes it almost impossible to not screw over your funds rank (and for sure, your experience rank). Not everything should be viewed in the lens of pure efficiency, particularly when such a method screws you over in a ranking system the game actually endorses (S rank). So, really, calling me a close-minded fool is kind of the pot calling the kettle black. As eclipse even noted (or very strongly implied), prepromotes tend to look way better in the lens of sheer efficiency than when viewed in any other manner (and probably worst when S ranking, since you'll very rarely need the extra funds with intelligent stealing and item use).

I don't have anything against people using prepromotes, they have their own definite uses, but I do have something against people being arrogant jerks who apparently fail at reading and contribute nothing to a discussion.

P.S. A 20/1 or 20/2 Nino is about equal to a base or 20/7 Pent. Nino can reasonably get up to 20/10 in a S rank HM playthrough, which is equal to better statistically to a 20/20 Pent (which probably isn't going to happen). Pent's only advantage at this point over Nino realistically is Physic usage, but you're probably going to have 1-2 promoted healers in a S rank playthrough, so...meh.

[Which one]

Yeah, like eclipse said, it really depends on playstyle. I go for a medium-fast paced style, and I'd rather focus on strategies itself rather than babying growth units unless they are honestly worth it (good join time, good enough base for their join time, etc), such as Rutger, unless I /really/ like them as a character (coughFE12Malicecough). Lategame growth units, I find, are a waste of time if you already established a substantial team to carry through. For me, shiny end stats are nice, but not necessary as long as the unit can do his/her job fine, and making me waste time babying a unit (again, exception is when I really like the character as a character) when I could be otherwise completeing the chapter. I feel it just drags out unnecessarily, and prepromotes are good for not making me train a number of growth units that aren't that great nor do I care about as characters at all. I also tend to prefer the characters of prepromotes themselves, personality-wise.

I can see the appeal of babying a weak unit up to become killing machines, but I just find them a waste of my time. I play FE because I /don't'/ have to grind. Plus I hate kids. Prepromotes tend to be older and more mature characters, which appeal to me more.

I understand perfectly, but the thing with Nino (the late-game growth character that your refer to) is that she can catch up to the rest of the team level-wise by the end Cogs of Destiny and close-ish stat-wise by the end of Night of Farewells, as long as you're playing HM. HM, at least in FE7's XP calcs, SEVERELY punishes your XP growth if you are even slightly overleveled and puts a real soft cap on the level any unit can have at any time. It's not unusual for many units to be 20/5 to 20/10 max going into Light, even if you've been using them all game, while Nino can get up to 20/2 by turn 10 of CoD.

I mean, my god, 20/2 Nino is probably better than base Pent and will only get better, faster than he ever will and level up slightly faster since she's at a lower level than he is. Don't get me wrong, though; some prepromos are nice -- Pent is probably my "favorite", simply because it takes Erk until 20/20 to compete statistically with Pent and even then I almost think Pent edges it out.

I honest to god have no idea where this "Nino sucks" idea comes from. She a damn godsend in a ranked run, especially if you're playing EHM and decide not to abuse the ever living hell out of FFO arena. You really don't even have to sacrifice turn count to really train her in Night of Farewells, even on NM (and especially no on HM, because there is so much crap thrown at you you're going to be moving slow and have TONS of opportunities for Nino to finish off enemies).

[Which one]

Entirely the latter.

Figured. You never were my biggest fan, after all.

Frankly, I'm not a huge fan of prepromotes simply because they're in that weird region where they're not quite as good fully trained as most people you pick up from early game and using them before the rest of your party gets to around their level is just asking to hurt your experience rank. But if you're playing hard mode non-ranked or were like G_H and capped experience rank early, I guess you have a valid-ish reason to use them.

But, in general (Pent not included so much because you'd need Nino to outclass his stupidly good bases), prepromotes are cheaper/lazier ways that give you less in the end. So I despise them, as they're frankly useless to me. And I guess that makes me some kind of an idiot for thinking like that.

[Which one]

You're cute.

I have no idea if that was a compliment or a thinly veiled bash at my intelligence.

[Which one]

Well, I can't decide which one to use, and Dorcas, BArtre, and Dart take a lot of work to become useable.

Well, I leave this in the capable hands of SF.

Because you forgot the "prepromotes can DIAF" or "Pent, obviously" options, I'm going to go with Hawkeye, simply because the berserker crit bonus is nice and because the Ocean Seal is far easier to miss than the Hero Crest.

The correct answer is, of course, none -- or Pent if you can't resist him.