Lord Raven

You are the man. Thank you. I was close to a 4 turn a bunch of times but the problem was that Oscar always got into *just* the right range but I had to do 2 more damage to the boss. Oscar was about to die too so I was in quite a pickle :(

Chapter 6 Turncount: 4/25 Level HP Str Mag Skl Spd Lck Def Res Ike 05.35 30 8 2 9 9 7 7 0 Titania 03.54+ 35 13 5 13 16 12 12 8 Oscar 06.74 27 8 2 7 10 5 9 0 Boyd 05.60 33 9 0 5 9 4 5 0 Rhys 05.11 22 0 10 8 6 8 1 15 Soren 04.40 20 0 8 10 9 6 3 8 http://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=27728&st=0&p=1668203entry1668203 is the strategy I used and it worked. I had to make sure the Myrmidon in question had 4 def -- only in that circumstance could Oscar ORKO him. Other than that, it went by without a hitch. BEXP: 310/1210 Chapter 7 Turncount: 6/31 Level HP Str Mag Skl Spd Lck Def Res Ike 06.79 31 8 2 9 10 8 7 1 Titania 04.62+ 36 14 5 13 16 12 13 8 Soren 05.26 21 0 8 11 10 7 3 9 Oscar 07.60 27 9 2 7 10 6 9 0 Boyd 06.23 33 9 0 5 9 4 5 1 Rhys 05.47 22 0 10 8 6 8 1 15 Mia 06.00 21 7 0 10 13 6 7 2 Gatrie 11.08 32 12 0 6 5 6 16 1 Shinon 01.55+ 32 9 6 15 13 9 9 6 Got the Ward staff and the Armorslayer. I gave Titania a Javelin, Short Spear, AND Hand Axe to take on the entire West. She didn't even need the Hammer because she 2-3HKO'd a bunch of random Armors whose AI suicides into her... in fact there was this one Soldier who was weird and never attacked Titania on enemy phase. Anyways, the other Armors were taken out by a mixture of Ike, Boyd, and Soren (Boyd delivered the finishing 3 damage to one, whereas Soren and Ike often tag teamed one), Oscar took out the Thief and got the Ward staff he stole... Gatrie killed a couple Armors with a Steel Lance (it's a 4HKO) because they all have ballsy AS. BEXP: 300/1510 Chapter 8 Turncount: 8/39 Preparations: -- Ike/Oscar C -- Took off all of Mia's equipment. -- Sold Ashera Icon, Forged +5 Mt +25 Hit Iron Axe for Boyd -- Finished the following levels: Level HP Str Mag Skl Spd Lck Def Res Ike 07.01 32 9 2 10 10 9 7 1 Soren 06.06 22 1 9 12 10 8 3 10 Oscar 08.02 28 9 2 7 11 6 10 0 Boyd 07.00 34 10 0 6 10 4 5 1 (I gave Ike 20 BEXP in increments of 10, which is why he got an extra 1; he gets 11 for the first 10 BEXP. Same applies to other characters who have random .01 in their levels). BEXP Remaining: 1310 Deployed: Rhys, Oscar, Ike, Titania, Boyd, Soren Level HP Str Mag Skl Spd Lck Def Res Ike 08.65 32 9 2 10 11 9 7 1 Titania 05.58+ 36 15 6 13 16 13 14 9 Soren 07.14 22 1 10 13 11 8 3 11 Oscar 10.13 29 10 2 7 13 6 11 1 Boyd 09.27 36 10 0 6 10 5 6 2 Rhys 06.07 22 0 11 9 6 8 2 15 Ilyana 06.55 20 1 8 10 9 6 3 10 I basically ended up routing the map. Surprisingly easier for me on HM than NM to rout. I had Titania take the east, Boyd the south and Oscar/Ike/Soren the west. At random times I'd switch out Ike for Titania and Boyd would go east, but I managed to recruit Ilyana too. Killed the boss on Turn 7 EP. It's a defend map so I didn't have to worry about efficiency. MVP: Titania BEXP: 50/1360

I mean the lvl ups i've been getting are actually... where I'd love fixed mode (Boyd got +1 Skl and only +1 Skl each time I restarted C6, Oscar's gotten some weird mix of Skl, Mag, Res, and HP every single time too). But at the same time wouldn't that screw around with Titania's str? She gets 1 EXP per kill roughly -- though I imagine if I got a Fighter Band on her, killed things with Steel weapons etc she'd guarantee the 2 Str I'd need to 4 turn C6 (her starting with 50 pts doesn't hurt either).. hm

I was contemplating but I'm actually satisfied now. Early chapters are short enough that I can restart if I'm not satisfied.

I'm trying this now and no -- it does not require a crit on the Armor. In fact, you don't even need to crit the armor. It requires that you crit the boss because Titania falls either 2 or 4 HP short depending on how much Str she's gained.

I'm restarting my game -- I should keep a couple extra saves handy everywhere, which is my lesson. Part of it is because I have had some shitty level ups and the other part is that there are some random things I could've done at random points and finally... I could really use the Hammer.

I've been interested in trying it for a while, but I'm not sure how much time I have left to do this before school starts.

No guarantees on finishing but I'll outline my strategy as close as possible. I can't record videos or anything but I'll be sure to give unit stats and what have you at the end of every chapter, as well as turncounts etc. This is going to be hard mode, and I'm not quite sure what I'm doing yet. I have a decent idea of the early game but nothing long term just yet. No guarantees on finishing either... but I'm doing this out of general interest and seeing how long my interest lasts. I'll do an "all characters recruited" run. Anyways, for completion. Prologue Turncount: 4/4 Level HP Str Mag Skl Spd Lck Def Res Ike 02.57 20 5 1 7 8 6 6 0 Chapter 1 (The + refers to promoted) Turncount: 2/6 Level HP Str Mag Skl Spd Lck Def Res Ike 02.57 20 5 1 7 8 6 6 0 Oscar 03.10 26 6 1 6 7 5 8 0 Boyd 02.58 30 7 0 4 6 4 5 0 Titania 01.26+ 33 12 4 13 14 11 11 7 BEXP: 200/200 Turn 1: Oscar rescues Ike, goes to the extent of his range. Titania takes and drops Ike. On Turn 1 EP: Ike has to dodge at least one of the three attacks in order for this to work. Turn 2: Seize, Oscar gets Seraph Robe and Boyd kills a Fighter. Chapter 2 Turncount: 4/10 Level HP Str Mag Skl Spd Lck Def Res Ike 03.62 28 6 1 7 8 6 6 0 Oscar 04.10 26 7 1 7 8 5 8 0 Boyd 03.36 31 8 0 4 6 4 5 0 Rhys 04.44 22 0 10 8 5 7 0 14 Titania 01.60+ 33 12 4 13 14 11 11 7 It ends on Turn 4 EP. Oscar takes care of the north, Boyd and Ike take care of all the southern enemies. Titania goes up north on Turn 3 and Turn 4 is when she equips the Steel Axe and starts creating some chaos. Ike used Seraph Robe. BEXP: 200/400 Chapter 3 Turncount: 3/13 Level HP Str Mag Skl Spd Lck Def Res Ike 03.84 28 6 1 7 8 6 6 0 Titania 02.04+ 34 12 4 13 15 12 12 8 Shinon 01.09+ 32 9 6 15 13 9 9 6 Gatrie 09.56 31 12 0 6 5 5 14 0 Turn 2: Shinon weakens the Hand Axe Fighter, Gatrie kills it and Titania takes the Hand Axe from Gatrie. That's probably the more guaranteed way to do the strategy, but thankfully Shinon got the critical. Turn 2 EP: Titania kills a bunch of things with a Steel Axe. Turn 3: Titania goes up to the boss and attacks him with a Hand Axe. Marcia is talked to. Turn 3 EP: Boss kill BEXP: 200/600 Chapter 4 Turncount: 2/15 I didn't post chapter 4 cause I forgot probably, but I got a 2-turn. Everyone was crowded in a corner by the end of Turn 2 so they wouldn't get killed (in Shinon's case it was more or less to attract attention to himself since nobody attacks anyone but Shinon if they're able to). Titania attacked some random Soldier on Turn 1, killing a bunch of things with the Steel Axe equipped, and Shinon killed some Archer blocking Titania while she attacked the boss with a Hand Axe. The Hand Axe was a 2RKO, but that was okay since the boss attacked Titania anyway. 300/900 Chapter 5 Turncount: 6/21 Level HP Str Mag Skl Spd Lck Def Res Ike 05.07 30 8 2 9 9 7 7 0 Titania 03.32+ 35 13 5 13 16 12 12 8 Shinon 01.37+ 32 9 6 15 13 9 9 6 Gatrie 10.43 31 12 0 6 5 5 15 0 Soren 03.51 19 0 8 10 8 6 2 8 Oscar 05.58 26 7 2 7 9 5 8 0 Boyd 04.99 32 8 0 4 9 4 5 0 Rhys 05.00 22 0 10 8 6 8 1 15 BEXP: 0/900 On Turn 4, Titania landed a critical on Dakova and killed him.

I'd take Ike's cause of the HP. Ike has no problem reaching the stats he needs to reach.

What about Door Keys? Don't we have a couple left over?

Hawkeye seems like he'd be a decent candidate for them. If not then Marcus or Hector.

C10 Stealth can be done in 7 turns can't it? You don't really recruit Brom or Nephenee though... EDIT: 5 turns. I think this is NM though, but with more units you can bust doors. EDIT 2: all treasure + units And in NM I actually got less than 1100 CEXP in that chapter -- NM. In HM it'll be just about as much CEXP, probably a bit less.

It should be pretty straightforward in Japanese (for the emulator) if you've played FE9 before.

http://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=24530, specifically http://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=24530&view=findpost&p=1580224 Proof? ~19 Def and ~43 HP isn't bad at all. It's just not as good as other more durable units (ie Ike and the Paladins, Haar/Jill), but it's still enough to survive hits. Can't Marcia support Tanith too? She gets a lot of Evade from that although I don't recall Marcia's affinity (Tanith is def Earth). I meant err... if Marcia were to take over Jill then Tanith would take over Marcia's role. Basically, if we have Jill&Marcia, if we lose Jill, we have Marcia&Tanith instead (and those two can support each other but that's not entirely relevant). What's the problem here? You're forfeiting a lot of things in an efficient playthrough, and even if we lose Haar, what amount of turns is Haar himself saving that Marcia/Tanith can't already save by themselves? We do? We can't "take our time" with efficiency. Not like Makalov is THAT important anyway, considering we'd have two fliers from C18 onwards. And this makes Oscar > Marcia? So Jill > Marcia. cool. Will argue later, I'm in a rush right now cause i'm playing the Catherine demo.Halfway through I decided to go back to see what we were arguing. I am arguing either Oscar > Jill > Marcia or Jill > Marcia > Oscar. Nothing against Jill with respect to Marcia, Oscar's position is the iffy one. Furthermore, -Cynthia- that looks good and I'll see what I think of with the Tormod v Soren argument.

this argument i feel addresses much of the Mia v Zihark concerns -- Mia could easily go above Zihark or directly below him, but with no one in between. There isn't much favoritism going on in this argument either because he specifically mentions that a) everyone is on equal level (and overleveled at that) and b) he has 1100 bexp to spare. Zihark's better in raw stats, but Mia's availability lead, regardless of how slight, is if anything a tie breaker. And worst case scenario, Stefan goes above Zihark or below Mia. But there's no way in hell Stefan should be between the two.

Um Zihark's Adept is only a 12% activation at base. Mia's got Vantage which counts for something; you can give her a bunch of scrolls and she'd end up using them well because Vantage is more guaranteed than Adept to activate. Furthermore, the Str gap doesn't matter as much considering Mia has time to catch up; Interceptor did say he pumped a bunch of BEXP into Mia (Fixed mode) and she kept killing things quite well with 11 str/17 AS and this was before Zihark joined. And he still had enough BEXP to get Rolf to like Level 12 or 13 or promote Oscar/Boyd/do whatever the fuck he wanted even though he pumped a bunch into Mia. I don't think Mia or Zihark have enough differences to warrant any unit going directly in between them. Which kinda blows because people say "efficient run" as "the one single most efficient run ever" whereas others say "well, who we are using requires some variance so..." The standards with which we're arguing these tiers, once again, are not concrete enough. I'd rather forge a 1-range weapon so that frontliners can easily plow through things. I don't think Soren's move is giving him enough offense to matter. A seal I'd much rather use on Mist, anyway. I'm referring to a full promotion at any rate, although if we're gonna do that to Soren I completely forgot that Rhys is an option too... sarcasm I saw the 3-turn strategy just now -- there weren't any hand axes involved. Lethe shoved Marcia (who lured the boss out so he wouldn't get in Titania's way) and Mordecai Smited Titania. On Turn 3, Titania killed the Knight with the Hammer and Marcia Arrived that turn. Marcia has more insurance because Mordecai can't Smite Jill without transforming. Neither can Muarim. Marcia can be Shoved/Smited by either character, however. Cool, Jill > Marcia. Cool, one chapter. Marcia/Jill are perfectly capable of an easy 3-turn. In fact, with enough shoving of Reyson (+Laguz Stone) I bet a 2-turn is pretty much feasible for Marcia/Jill, considering their durability isn't shit. Yes!! That is cool. But Jill isn't always recruited, leading to the possibility of Marcia being the only flying unit. I'm not using this as a point against Jill -- I know Jill is better -- but I am showing it's possible to have an efficiency run pulled off successfully with allocating Jill's resources purely to Marcia so she can survive very well. Yes but Marcia arguably has better utility. This is what I'm arguing. Marcis is merely an inferior Jill, but not inferior enough that she can't overtake Jill; she can take over Jill's role and she doesn't do it as effectively, but Jill's niche is then filled by Tanith. Marcia is more integral in a playthrough than Jill is, in that case. Playthroughs where Marcia is trained has her at the highest of priorities for buffs and everything because her flying gives her an advantage.With both Marcia and Jill, each have backup to pull things off easier. Jill is better than Marcia in this case. Without Marcia, we need to wait a couple turns to clear C12 and 13 easier. Without either well we gain a bunch of turns. I have absolutely no idea why it's like this. I've been questioning it for a while too, and I'd still keep questioning it if nobody ignored me when I asked that. We don't have enough concreteness (efficiency is NOT concrete, and while we all share a low-turn count opinion it's retarded that people are arguing based on their personal meaning of this) to effectively judge a tier list. I agree, by the way. k First of all, I see your point with Soren > the Myrmidons. In fact, every single argument brought up pointed to Soren > Mia... since Zihark is almost exactly the same unit, Soren > Zihark quite easily. Stefan is an iffy case, and I'm fairly sure he should be below Mia simply because Mia and Zihark exist longer and become more durable much later into the game. Now, Soren vs Tormod... I looked at your argument for Soren and Tormod and all I see is quality of staff botting. Nothing more. Not mentioning the fact that Tormod has a better chance of keeping up with the people who need to be healed in larger maps (which start around the time Tormod comes in) so Tormod's +2 move advantage over Soren is quite a boon. Especially because Tormod essentially hits an unpromoted mount's movement upon promotion -- this actually places him above regular foot units. This means he can reach units easier with a staff if he ever wants to heal, and he can take out pesky enemies with low Res if not. That's once they come in. Soren may have Adept and better bases, but Tormod has movement in the bag. Yeah, tiering Fire Emblem blows dick. Marcia can easily be promoted with ~600-700 BEXP to spare by the time Jill comes in.

I wouldn't recommend it, especially since you can BEXP abuse stat gains in fixed mode pretty easily and bands (on top of weapons) help elevate you from 40 or 45% to the 50% needed to abuse stat gains.

Marcia > Oscar is what I've been sorta trying to argue... I said Maniac mode hahaha (I may have been arguing the first couple chapters with MM in mind, by the way, if I had been arguing them at all, but Ike takes 50% hitrates early on whereas Boyd takes like 80% in MM so the numbers are lower for HM)... C2 Titania had like 16 HP left, in C3 Titania actually had to retreat from the boss because she had 6 HP left. But yeah, Boyd being bumped down to the top of High isn't a bad idea. I actually am legitimately curious about the numbers. She isn't a hindrance either. Neither is Stefan, but if Zihark > Mia then Stefan should be better than both. If Zihark > Stefan then Mia > Zihark would make a lot more sense. I'm still for Tormod being above Soren regardless of what happens. I think we should outline who is getting what forges in each chapter, because Soren still only has 40 uses of a forge to solve that problem. We only have 1 forge/chapter after all, and people who can survive in the frontlines and do 1~2 range with a Javelin/Hand Axe should take priority over Soren and Tormod. If Tormod gets BEXP his post-chapter 18 utility is far greater than Soren's, especially because he makes a decent secondary healer with a Heal staff alongside Mist. I was reading the one efficiency log posted in the board -- it ends on C18 -- and that didn't recruit Jill and didn't really have any trouble with low turns at all. Though, Marcia's stats were RNG abused quite a bit (18 str at 20/1 or something, 21 str at 20/3 due to an energy drop) but Laguz Lance is how they ended up killing Muarim. Considering Marcia's level and spd lead over Jill, the Laguz Lance makes an easy ORKO (his Marcia did around 33x2 which is overkill)

I think someone seriously needs to do an efficiency run of this game.

there's all of like 15 pegasi enemies throughout the game, and only like 5 of them can be fought with a Reaver

Because Ike is able to fight Swordmasters in 4-E-2.

Not quite 1 at a time. 01/--: 4 EXP (3 BEXP) (Saves 10 BEXP/level) 02/--: ? 03/--: ? 04/--: ? 05/--: 8 EXP (7 BEXP) (Saves 5 BEXP/level) 06/--: 11 EXP (10 BEXP) (Saves 4 BEXP/level) 07/--: 21 EXP (20 BEXP) (Saves 2 BEXP/level) 08/--: 100 EXP (100 BEXP) 09/--: 19 EXP (19 BEXP) (Saves 3 BEXP/level) 10/--: 9 EXP (9 BEXP) (Saves 5 BEXP/level) 11/--: 1 EXP (1 BEXP) (Saves 8 BEXP/level) 12/--: 4 EXP (4 BEXP) (Saves 11 BEXP/level) 13/--: 1 EXP (1 BEXP) (Saves 14 BEXP/level) 14/--: 1 EXP (1 BEXP) (Saves 17 BEXP/level) 15/--: 1 EXP (1 BEXP) (Saves 21 BEXP/level) 16/--: 1 EXP (1 BEXP) (Saves 25 BEXP/level) 17/--: 1 EXP (1 BEXP) (Saves 29 BEXP/level) 18/--: 1 EXP (1 BEXP) (Saves 33 BEXP/level) 19/--: 1 EXP (1 BEXP) (Saves 38 BEXP/level) 20/--: 1 EXP (1 BEXP) (Saves 43 BEXP/level) --/01: 1 EXP (1 BEXP) (Saves 47 BEXP/level) --/02: 12 EXP (18 BEXP) (Saves 4 BEXP/level) --/03: 4 EXP (6 BEXP) (Saves 10 BEXP/level) --/04: 2 EXP (3 BEXP) (Saves 17 BEXP/level) --/05: 2 EXP (3 BEXP) (Saves 24 BEXP/level) --/06: 3 EXP (5 BEXP) (Saves 15 BEXP/level) --/07: 6 EXP (11 BEXP) (Saves 6 BEXP/level) --/08: 100 EXP (200 BEXP) --/09: 4 EXP (8 BEXP) (Saves 11 BEXP/level) --/10: 2 EXP (4 BEXP) (Saves 22 BEXP/level) --/11: 1 EXP (2 BEXP) (Saves 35 BEXP/level) --/12: 100 EXP (250 BEXP) --/13: 2 EXP (5 BEXP) (Saves 17 BEXP/level) --/14: 4 EXP (11 BEXP) (Saves 11 BEXP/level) --/15: 6 EXP (18 BEXP) (Saves 8 BEXP/level) --/16: 1 EXP (3 BEXP) (Saves 33 BEXP/level) --/17: 2 EXP (7 BEXP) (Saves 14 BEXP/level) --/18: 100 EXP (400 BEXP) --/19: 1 EXP (4 BEXP) (Saves 44 BEXP/level) For levels 02/-- to 04/--, I don't know the amounts that would optimize usage. For levels 11/-- and 13/-- to 18/--, I'm sure you can actually increase BEXP by greater intervals but I'm not sure what those intervals are. But I know you can do it 1 at a time and maximize BEXP usage.

That *assumes* Jill is recruited, because Marcia can easily get low turncounts in Jill's chapters before Jill even arrives. The fact is that they're both fliers and they can skip terrain *extremely* easily and get to places much faster. The fact that there's two of them only makes it much, much better and not any worse. Of course, I'm not arguing Marcia > Jill by any stretch of the imagination, since Jill's offense and durability actually beat Marcia's enough to make up for not really existing earlier, but this argument definitely should not be very strong for Marcia. What if we're not using those two, then...? We don't have much of a problem with Ulki and his other problems shine anyway. His 5~6 turns he needs to transform are indeed a point against him but his (mediocre) performance with Demi Band should still be judged. Also contributes to 17-4 if you didn't recruit Jill (if you did then either of them can take Oliver out quite easily with a couple Shoves). I meant that if Marcia has significant advantage over Oscar after she joins but Oscar's earlygame is hyped up enough to get him over Marcia (and not Jill), then there's no reason the same thing should apply to Boyd/Kieran. Kieran's got significant advantages over Boyd too, but Kieran isn't around (he's around almost as often as Mia whereas Boyd is around as often as Oscar). I'm not implying Boyd > Oscar in any way, but I'm saying that if Oscar > Marcia makes sense then so should Boyd > Kieran. That is assuming we recruit Jill. That's a big if in some efficiency playthroughs, because while Jill saves turns I don't think it's enough to make up for the fact that she arrives on Turn 4 in the port chapter (C11?) and then on like Turn 4 again in the ship chapter. Not saying this is against Jill, but it proves that Jill isn't necessary and that Marcia isn't always sharing the flying utility. Boyd takes overall more damage than Ike and Ike can evade much more often than Boyd, on top of Boyd not really existing in C3&4. In C3 he clears out a bunch of scrap Brigands (I also might be thinking of my Maniac Mode playthrough where Titania almost got killed in C2/3/4 and Ike was actually like 60% as useful as Titania because him and Oscar have the best durability in early-game maps). But aside from that, Ike and Boyd are generally tied, Boyd probably getting a small lead every single chapter, until Ike promotes which lessens the gap a little bit. From there, Boyd and Ike are neck-in-neck (Ike wins in durability, Boyd wins in Offense) with Boyd still having a slight advantage due to his offense and range... I'm not saying Ike > Boyd but that Boyd and Ike shouldn't be in different tiers. How long until he actually doubles, though? He can't use the C2 Speedwing until C5, for reference... he has 3 base AS right? 6 Spd/7 Str... so by C5 he has like 9 Str/9 Spd? He still has durability problems because he still doesn't dodge as often as Ike does (iirc?) but his offense is still better. I'm wondering how often Boyd can actually kill with 1~2 range especially as we approach late game? You can't really have infinite forges... You're right though, Ike actually doesn't significantly win any portion except the last bits, but he's not significantly at a loss either. Erm... except Mia exists for much longer and they still are pretty much the same unit (except Mia can dodge). Mia can get a forge and screw around quite a lot, and she can build supports. She beats Stefan during the late-game, exists for half of the mid-game and she's never really a hindrance to your team. I don't think she has as many Atk issues as you're saying. Interceptor's argument actually worked quite well in her favor. Soren's speed is like 1 or 2 points higher, and Tormod's magic is generally 1 or 2 points lower. Tormod can use stronger tomes more easily due to his strength which closes the speed gap, and if Soren wants to start using El- tomes then the speed gap increases -- in Tormod's favor. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oYZikQkb_jg Yes and her potential to help everywhere else if you do not recruit Jill. If you 2-turn 12, you don't recruit Jill at all. I'm not saying it's irrelevant to tiering Jill -- I don't think I was arguing Marcia > Jill -- but I was saying that Jill isn't always recruited in every efficiency playthrough so Marcia isn't always sharing her flier utility with Jill. I didn't know. Mordecai can smite Titania into place and let her use a Hammer. I'm sure I'm not alone in freely forfeiting resources to fliers. I think Muarim attacks first, but Muarim has a shitload of HP that I don't think Jill can even do that. Eh. No... Marcia has at least a 4 point resistance lead over Jill. At least. That's only base stats; that doesn't account for how Marcia will be at a higher level either. Marcia therefore can take Nosferatu hits much better than Jill. Jill also cannot be shoved nearly as easily as Marcia can in 17-4... They both actually get horseraped without the Full Guard. I'm not arguing Marcia > Jill. Indeed. Indeed. I never said Oscar was worthless, but in this case he is definitely better than both fliers. Then... Jill/Marcia (either with Full Guard) are useless? Ok, but Marcia still has her uses in flier utility. Jill is better than Marcia but Marcia's still able to fly. So instead of repeating points I'd like to bring up that I'm interested in buying Resonance of Fate. Hopefully that will bring life to this "Marcia is the inferior combat unit" argument that I might've accidentally contradicted (I go on a lot of rants, so I tend to contradict myself pretty easily) but generally agree with and I hopefully didn't bring up. I mean Marcia only needs to take around 3 hits anyway, and she can dodge a couple of them pretty reliably. On top of the fact that you may need two fliers to do a 3-turn that I'm suggesting anyway. Jill needs almost as much as Marcia to match Oscar, probably even more because she comes much later. Marcia provides low turns for the chapters she has over Jill and her/Jill can tagteam when we have two fliers. This is shown by the fact that Jill/Marcia can double team on Muarim (and worst case scenario one of them can ferry Lethe over to Stefan's square) or the fact that you can Take/Drop Ike whenever you want to arrive on a Seize square for both. Also, Marcia can help a lot using Jill's BEXP if Jill ends up not being recruited, therefore Marcia maintains a stronger lead over Oscar. It would help or hurt my argument if the tier list were more defined as to what we do in terms of recruiting Jill.Of course, my entire point is that Marcia can do her job without Jill and vice-versa, because both of them actually hinder turn counts through their recruitment anyway but save them in the long run. I'm not saying that difficulty of recruitment should be a factor, but the fact that it does happen (unlike Titania not being used -- what was that suggestion all about?) and I've seen it happen in the few efficiency runs people have done of this game.

Nobody said Alan, Lance, and Dieck were shit. In 0% growths they are past the beginning, but in a regular playthrough they are not.

Doubt that they could be that much better that it outweighs Marcia being able to 2-turn C12 and 3-turn C13 (although you need to add a couple turns to recruit Jill anyway, but...) My purpose with that is that an efficiency run doesn't necessarily *need* Jill. Marcia is pretty much guaranteed to be in every efficiency run; Jill is not. Not to say Jill doesn't save turns in the same way Marcia does post-C12 (that's when she's recruited right? I get the chapters mixed up), but the fact is that Marcia is a flier before Jill is and the game doesn't *need* Jill. Of course, this doesn't hurt Jill's case so much as it helps Marcia's simply because of how long Marcia's flier utility exists in comparison to Jill's. But then again, I put a strangely flip flopping argument later in this post showing how Jill is better than Marcia once recruited... it's a very weird thing to rank a character as #2 in the game who isn't even necessarily recruited in a low-turn playthrough. His tier position is still lower than the "better" users of the Demi Band. That's how that works out. What he does with and without it should be factored in, but opportunity costs shouldn't affect his tier list. I view the tier list as "we're running an efficient playthrough, who is more worth taking the last slot?"... and clearly because of everyone's differing opinions as to how to rank a tier list it gets extremely odd trying to argue poor units because a better unit is always brought up to make them look worse. When in reality, that's not the way quality works. C9 it's useful for getting Ike to the throne after recruiting Marcia....C10, it's exactly the same as mounted utility. There's nothing to fly over. C11, she helps with the 3-turn. If you want to recruit Jill, you have to wait on her to arrive so Oscar and Marcia are actually doing the exact same thing in this chapter... C12, she _gets_ the 2-turn. She basically ends the chapter when Jill gets here. C13, her offense is behind Oscar's but she has more mobility. Jill starts to catch up here. Both (all three) are pretty useful to end this a couple turns early by killing crows and routing the enemies though. C14, she attempts to recruit Makalov. Jill and Oscar are doing almost the exact same thing here. C15 is when Marcia/Jill are doing better (Jill is actually doing better here due to superior offense) because they help get to Muarim easier. I don't think Jill can kill Muarim all that easily though, but they're both infinitely more useful than Oscar. C16 has them all matching utility. C17 has Oscar on slightly less footing in Part 1, Part 2 all high-movement characters are needed for a quick clear and Jill/Marcia have got Part 4 in the bag. C18 is a weird chapter that has absolutely no reliance on flier utility. C19, I'm still not sure how useful flying utility can be here unless you want Jill/Marcia to get hit by a Wind spell from Naesala for the Knight Ring. I'm sure Oscar's doing the exact same thing to get to the boss. C20 is when flying utility ends the chapter pretty early. Rescuing Ike/killing Shiharam. C21, fliers can go over the water but Jill has a pretty good probability of getting sleeped, although Marcia helps out here. C22, neither are useful except for a bunch of enemy kills. They can't shove priests/bishops. C23, Marcia/Jill really shine because they can avoid pits. One of them gets the Full Guard though, meaning the other gets kinda mauled by Ballistae... C24, definitely need fliers to get Ike to Arrive quickly. C25 is where all mounted units save fliers have penalties... I could even see Janaff and Ulki having use here because of said penalties towards mounted units (they can't reach things for the kill in time) but it's the same old shtick where flying units get it done quickly C26, they're around equal footing C27, exactly the same performance for all 3 C28, Tanith ferries Ike and Jill/Marcia (assuming they can take the laguz) take on the boss Endgame has them all on the same performance level. On all these chapters, you can see that Jill > Marcia for after Jill joins (but not by very much at all) but you can also see that Marcia > Oscar as well. Oscar does have around 6-7 more chapters in early game (he isn't deployed in C3 and C4 if I'm recalling correctly? So it's 7) but he's not crucial to any of them necessarily. He is still better than Kieran, but if we're truly rating Oscar's early-game that much over flying utility then we may as well do the same with Boyd's earlygame simply due to the fact that Boyd's early/early-midgame is in fact much longer than Oscar's early/midgame advantage over Marcia. I also don't know why Titania would be at the very Top either. Yes, she's your best unit for 11 chapters but Marcia/Jill's post-C13 far outweigh whatever Titania can contribute at that point. She does not deserve to be an entire tier above Jill and Marcia if we truly love flier utility that much. There's also no way Boyd should be an entire tier above Ike. Ike's better C28/Endgame performance not counting, Ike also has better performance for C1/2, he exists for 3/4, and then 5 onwards they're pretty much tied. Ike has a more stable time doubling and therefore killing, as well as a durability lead (both with supports and in raw stats). Boyd wins by a little bit because his level doesn't cap as low (I predict Boyd's promotion to be around C15?) and the fact that he has 1~2 range, but Ike is beating him at the very endgame and in the first thirds. It's either Boyd be moved down a little bit or Ike be moved up so there's not a tier gap between them... Wasn't an argument in favor of Mia > Zihark > Stefan posted? They're all more or less the same unit (Stefan is those two but with less avoid and luck, Zihark is a bit more durable but Mia exists longer) with different existing periods. Soren doesn't have business being in the middle of them. As for Soren's placement, I'm not sure where he should go, but I honestly don't think he should be above Tormod simply because Tormod's Celerity gives a +2 move lead over Soren, except Tormod can hold stronger tomes without being weighed down as much.