Lord Raven

Everyone given the same resources should still hypothetically end up in the same order an ideal tier list would be in. Otherwise it's silly to make a tier list based on a game where we're essentially tiering "used" and "unused" but with fancy words.

I recall that happening very early in the days of tier lists, and years ago. I do not think it applies anymore, especially because I doubt Karel would be above Athos if that were truly the case. Which is also retarded for reasons such as the fact that this particular unit (Ulki) is actually quite mediocre (as opposed to bad) when you give him the proper tools. Not that he'll be getting the proper tools as much as Janaff is getting fielded (lol) and therefore we should examine his position based on that instead of based on how much better someone else is with his utility. He's 'bad' instead of 'mediocre' because we don't give him the utility, therefore your argument doesn't even necessarily apply. But that is also beside the point. Saying "we can penalize units for being bad ALL WE WANT" is another double standard that's being applied in your argument. Erm... except Oscar is still the best Paladin instead of Titania and he's the one that requires the least BEXP by far.I think my previous post got me the Marcia badge. I'd say Marcia > Oscar if Jill > Oscar. I'd stretch it and say Marcia > Jill considering the fact that a max efficiency run doesn't even recruit Jill (meaning that I doubt Jill saves that many turns) and Marcia's around for longer. In fact, Interceptor posted earlier that units get points for just existing and I don't know why the tier list isn't revamped to reflect that. Not that it should be based on availability, but if two units have the same utility but one has better availability then clearly that unit should beat the other unit (in this case, Marcia should be beating out Jill).

And instead we provide ourselves with a horribly inefficient way to determine tier lists. This argument is a double standard because it obviously does not apply to Karel and Harken in FE7. Nor does it apply to Wallace and Geitz. "We have enough good Paladins" does nothing to dent Oscar's quality, especially considering we have Oscar as the best of them next to Titania (considering supports and everything). If anything, Oscar's doing more in his chapters than Marcia/Jill in theirs because Oscar's one of like four units in his chapters.

Until tiers are defined better I don't think anyone should actually be arguing tiers. Are we arguing tiers of the most efficient playthrough in existence? Then why argue tiers at all? That's what I don't understand. If that were true then why isn't there a "used" and "unused" tier? I don't understand why this is used against him in a tier list.Also, why is Kieran > Boyd? And Jill > Oscar? The main reason I don't understand Jill > Oscar is because Marcia < Oscar. Jill is essentially a second Marcia once she comes in, and the only thing she really beats Marcia in is offense (not that large a lead considering Marcia is giving us low turns prior). Oscar has an availability lead over both of them.

You missed the point. Using Oscar does in fact help prevent you from using any other unit as does using Titania, Rolf, etc because they steal EXP from other units and they take a deployment slot that another unit could possibly use. No, it costs exactly the same in terms of the game to give Ulki the band. It results in lesser efficiency but that's why you have Ulki below the characters on the tier list who use the Demi Band, and it's definitely a tie breaker between Janaff and Ulki.

I think a person above me said Largo > Ulki > Rolf earlier or something so I was bouncing off of that, I'm not sure what I was saying. She's also good with like... Fortify/Ashera Staff/pretty much any other staff out there. Way better than Ulki's halfassed flying utility. If anything I'd like to see that used as a tiebreaker rather than a determining argument... There needs to be way more concrete ways to debate tiers because the rules are pretty vague as is. But the use of *any* unit prevents the use of another save something like Ike or anyone used in like the first 8 chapters...

That's the problem, Ulki can match that utility with a Demi Band. People made a massive fuss about the Demi Band because it "takes away from Muarim"... Because that's the way everyone argues it, duh. I'd prefer arguing each unit on their own merits as opposed to saying "They can't get this because someone's better" when we're arguing their objective position on a tier list, but sadly nobody shares this view with me. I'd think the tier list's existence sorts out the order of operations for who gets what, anyway. Let me know a couple decent strategies that consists of the Hawks' flier utility. In other words, why weigh flier utility against Largo if it's not used or isn't effective?

I don't understand the kind of double standard you people apply to tier lists. Ulki's a drain on our resources because he competes for a Demi band but his flier utility (which barely exists as is, that flier utility blows) is better than Largo's average offense when Largo comes in. Except Ulki needs the Demi Band for consistent flier utility and he needs the Demi band for offense which you guys keep saying HES NOT GETTING whereas at least Largo makes a decent attempt at not-all-that-bad-and-does-a-ton-of-damage offense whenever he comes in. Then we have Rolf who is doing nothing but chip in his chapters. Except wait, you shouldn't even need him to do chip when you're pumping the fuck out of your best offensive units so they can solidly 2HKO things by themselves instead of 2HKO w/ chip... and then Rolf turns into a mediocre combat unit who can only attack up to 5 times a chapter (I'm being generous, some guy beat FE9 HM in around 130ish turns on gamefaqs) when he uses those resources. So basically, Largo > Rolf and Ulki. Hawk's flier utility sucks dick in this game. Does nobody remember the lack of Canto? They can't pick things up and then immediately move away, nor can they drop things off and move away. They stay in their spot and cannot move as soon as they do things. I know *I* forget a bunch of times when I'm playing FE9 these days. At least Marcia/Tanith/Jill/etc can cover some ground as soon as they rescue someone. This is irrelevant. Ike not only gets a free level in the Prologue, but in C1 onwards he will remain on par with the enemies without too much extra support. Mist needs to heal, she's not an offensive unit (even after promotion putting her on offense is dumb unless you want to level up her sword level for the Sonic Sword or something). Rolf, however, barely does damage in his own chapter and gets killed pretty easily simply because his relative stat output is so poor, especially compared to everyone else who is fielded (and all enemy units). What chapter are you talking about? The one where you recruit Kieran has a bunch of pretty useless treasures, and I read a low turn guide that said that the most practical thing to get from the chests in a low-turn of C16 was Full Guard and I think the top right corner of chests. You know that Sothe has 8 base attack right? What is he cleaning up? A priest that he can't even ORKO? That's not even going into the fact that his strongest weapon will have 4 Mt for a solid half the time he's around. You only have one Stiletto between C21 and whenever they start being sold in the shops, and even then that's just 8 Mt (although effective against armors... lol). If we're argue Sothe's merit on offense, then I swear to god debating has hit a new level of low.

You can easily promote Mist at 10/0 and she still has her mounted healer utility. As well as 15 magic. In Hard Mode, there is still quite a bit of EXP but still not enough to train a bunch of pretty good units AND Rolf at the same time. Rolf simply does nothing but chip for a while unless he has a bunch of BEXP... a BUNCH. That he is taking away from every unit I listed (save Titania) anyway, only to become mediocre. Rolf's evolution is terrible -> mediocre whereas Ulki goes from mediocre -> mediocre with the resources they take from people.

Then again, Sephiran also has a very dark hair color (closer to the color of a Hawk or a Raven) and he's a Heron.

lol i was pitching that for a radiant dawn tier list That's beside the point. Ulki's chip in his chapters is way better than Rolf's chip in his own chapters. Ulki can dodge at 1-range too. Worst case scenario, we don't give him the Demi Band and wait until Turn 5 (or a bit earlier if we want to get him attacked once or twice) and still outperform Rolf. On top of Flier utility however late it is. Ulki's competing with Muarim/Mordecai for a Demi Band, but Rolf is competing for BEXP with Nephenee, Marcia, Kieran, Brom, Oscar, Boyd, Titania... every single unit save Rhys and Mist basically. On top of lacking an enemy phase (as opposed to Ulki who only lacks an Enemy Phase half the time, like every other laguz unit).

Don't forget about Marcia who comes in at exactly the same chapter he does and arguably saves *many* more turns.

Oh we're comparing Ulki and Rolf? yea, fuck rolf. It is of my opinion that if you are not Astrid pre-promotion, then wielding a Bow and only a Bow is quite debilitating, especially when you come with poor stats. Ulki can chip better because he can at least evade the hits. Enemies aren't strong enough to make enemy phase relatively unimportant.

How so? Enemies in the final chapter have the ability to double Ulki on normal mode. Ulki's AS reaches like 20 max at --/20 (which he won't reach) which is not even enough to double things in the late game, let alone his 14 base (will probably go up to 17 if you get 5 levels on him) not doing much for him.I still don't entirely understand how useful flier ability can be if you can't exactly use Canto to get out of the way. If anything, Janaff should be receiving praise for that because he doesn't need the Demi Band to do it. He can start on Turn 1 and go until Turn 7 (assuming he doesn't enter combat) but it's still questionable when you can't move after you rescue things.

Ulki can't double. I was playing normal mode and base Ulki could only do one hit and like... nothing else. They can't even hit-and-run. With a Demi Band, his doubling problem actually gets worse.

Oscar's better off rushing ahead with his high movement than staying back with Boyd and Rolf. It's really hard to find a convenient time to use the triangle attack and its nothing but a flashy critical anyway.

Not like combat is as important in later chapters anyway. I'd much rather take a staff user who can cure status, and a powerhouse like Sety doesn't hurt either.

I think Zelgius mentioned somewhere that his ancestor was a laguz, and the trait skipped a couple generations. (What kind of branded is Zelgius anyway? I honestly thought Heron for a bit, but I'm leaning towards Tiger or Lion).

In NM you want to aim for 5 in the prologue. Edward has the evasion, doubling power, and Wrath to kill the boss and all the Brigands pretty early. 6 is a pretty good number if you don't want to battle save. In HM 7 is pretty practical for the prologue. 6 or 7 turns is good for 1-1, I managed to do 6 in HM but I'm not sure what NM's minimum is (could be five). As for the Dracoshield... I remember using it on Nolan everytime but Edward is fair game too. What mode is this again?

He can still leave a pretty serious dent on things and he can double some unpromoted units (and take out random magic users cause they have less than 7 AS).

Dorcas does too, he may have low speed but damn does he have high str/decent skl/massive HP/hand axes. Louise at least has A Pent on her side. Wallace ends up an inferior Oswin if you train him; if Oswin's a superhero by endgame then Wallace may as well be.

What are your turncounts for each chapter?

Dorothy, Wolt, the armors...

Final Chapter can get irritating at points considering AS tends to be average 18-19, they have decent amounts of accuracy and there are enemies with skills (I've seen a Resolve somewhere, a Wrath elsewhere and random Vantage users).

Terrain penalties.