Lord Raven

You're actually right there, but it also kinda blows that a thirds of the enemies have ranged weapons which isn't good at all for Astrid unless you want to hamper her offense with a Longbow... Though how she's getting a Silencer in 3-9 is beyond me (Silver Bow is only 1 less point so its a non issue). She's still not as good as Oliver at anything in the endgame, and my main point was still that Oliver is better than Micaiah and he may as well be the second string staffbot. As dondon's 0% growth shows, at any rate, you can afford to use a bunch of units that won't contribute much in 4-E-1. It still has no bearing on Oliver's quality that he's outclassed as I keep saying but everyone keeps ignoring because the fact that he's low tier covers that Oliver is obviously not doing *that* much better than Micaiah.

It's not that hard. You assume optimal deployment, except the final slot is the low tier character in question. That's how I've been arguing it.Setting a more concrete standard with these tier lists is probably kind of an issue too considering each person is arguing on a different system of beliefs, and that kind of tangles things up heavily. In which case, using my set of arguments, Oliver is actually assumed as only a 2nd string staff user (not healer) to Micaiah (and actually a superior staff user).

That's already covered by the fact that he's low tier. It still doesn't answer why he's below Kurthnaga or why he should stay above all the units below him (which I agree to, by the way).

Oliver's still doing better, staff-wise, than Micaiah if you once again wanna go for comparisons. People actually continuously mentioned this but it was ignored each time. He actually has better stats than she's likely to have by 4-E, and I'm pretty sure his base magic is higher than Elincia's magic cap. Huh... this does improve her chip, but it's not doing enough to improve it considering her max damage output is 13 damage... which doesn't change any frontline 2HKOs at all. Even if she gets like 5-6 level ups, she does a max of 13 damage to Sages. She does around 8-10 damage to the average Paladin, and this is all with a Silencer. Like half the enemies have 1-2 range as is, which Astrid gets absolutely reamed by. Unless you can provide some hard numbers I've got nothing to agree with you on, and this actually makes her exactly as situational as Oliver except she can only shave turncounts in the occasional fuckup whereas Oliver can use a Rescue staff to bring a powerful unit TO him when/if needed. That's not "occasional fuckup," that's worked into a strategy easily. At least, the way you're justifying it.

Lehran is only in the final chapter anyway. I also brought up Matrona to help with Biorhythm (needs two arms scrolls but you have shittons of money) v_v Same base speed as Kyza, right? Can easily apply the argument to both and compare performances. Kyza's better, I know. Single digit chip only matters if it's doing *just* enough to help others ORKO instead of 2RKO. You haven't shown me how this chip is useful.Also, 23 atk is doing ~6-9 damage to the average enemy in 2-3 and it's actually much worse in 3-9. And it goes even further downhill once the non-Geof CRKs rejoin the Mercs. At best she changes EARLY 3HKOs in 2-3 to 2HKOs (and I doubt that she'll be doing more than a couple, she can't hit back on enemy phase and she needs to get the fuck out of there if she doesn't want to be attacked) but I doubt she's doing much to affect 3-9. Now, tell me what chipping Meg will be doing. Wind Edge chipping? With all of 16 atk and 70 something accuracy? Once again, how much does this chipping even help? Once he gets attacked he's fucked, and he needs to go to some degree of frontlines (4-E-1 is a very open chapter) in order to actually pull off this chip.

You've yet to show me how, exactly. I'm arguing him above shit like Meg, Kurth, Astrid, Lyre, etc. He still has that utility that is indeed situational but is better than anything those guys are doing (especially because Kurth gets killed whenever enemies come in contact with him on 4E1 and 4E2, 4E3 is irrelevant and 4E4/4E5 he exists to sit there and take it like a man and do nothing, most importantly). "If you need one, take x person" has no bearing on how good Oliver is as a unit, it merely has bearing in their relative tier placements which are already as they currently are. The purpose of a tier list is to compare unit choices upon the situation where they are deployed, not upon how likely you are to deploy someone. Astrid does chip in two chapters. She doesn't even double armors in her first chapter (these are unpromoted armors) and her chip is only single digits in her first chapter. Her chip is even worse in the other chapters she's deployable in.What the flying fuck does Meg even chip? What about Kurthnaga? Kurthnaga doesn't even have the durability to chip. Honestly, this is also sorta irrelevant as an argument, considering how a tier list still judges their rank as if no other competition exists (save for items because there's only a couple of those per playthrough) for that slot and optimal deployment outside of the slot that is being used. "Using a slot" is only finding arguments against using Oliver, it's not at all a good argument against him. Actually... you mention a speedwing, I'm fairly sure that Lyre can use a Speedwing and Energy Drop nicely. I don't think either are using them, though... This has never been a point in anyone's favor, ever. Forced deployment doesn't do anything for characters that don't do anything to begin with. What are Kurthnaga exactly doing with that forced deployment slot, huh? Sitting in the back, jacking off on enemies, making sure they're too disgusting to touch him? Cause even if he isn't taking a deployment slot, he's doing absolutely nothing.

And what are they doing with that deployment? When they enter a map do they have any potential to do anything, at all? Congratulations, you both have once again proven, like everyone else, that Elincia and Micaiah are better than Oliver. This is not at all what I'm arguing.

What can Kurthnaga, Astrid, or Meg do that's any better? Once again I was always under the impression that this is actually never an argument for or against any particular unit.Also, why is Soren that far ahead Brom? Brom does a good amount of meatshielding in part 2 and part 3, whereas Soren doesn't have very much AS the entire game (he caps speed at 23 before promotion and 32 afterwards... and his speed growth is not too hot considering his Mag/Skl caps high in Tier 3). I don't see how Brom's offense or defense are ever lower than Soren's, and they have roughly the same move.

I'm not sure what you were trying to say in this statement, dude.

Oh okay, I was just wondering actually, I didn't want to contradict anyone despite the way it seemed. Err, I was wondering if it was a bit more convenient than that though I can see how this can help to some extent... the thing is I still don't get how this would help aside from some simple chokepoint blockage (since she can only ferry one unit at a time). BEXP abuse isn't an argument? I still don't understand how Kyza's that much higher than Lyre at any rate. That's actually what I'll settle for since I don't think the tier break is at all mandatory, and it only serves to confuse people like me who honestly would rather see some consistency in structuring with actual playable units. I'm not sure what I was arguing but I definitely didn't mean to really say that Lyre is above Astrid or Meg (although I might've said it at some point, I'm pretty much convinced at this point partially out of apathy and partially out of the fact that I don't see what Meg can do at all, of all things). You said E-1 and E-5 but what of E2/3? Surely some staff utility in E3 (which is closer to a 1 or two turn defend map than anything). I'm still referring to something like Rescue use and Fortify as opposed to actually healing with something like Mend or Physic, though, seeing as Rescue staff has far more tactical use depending on the strategy for low turns. There's also Matrona which boosts Biorhythm to max. Fucking terrible argument. I expected much better from you. Great, not only do I know already that Mist and Elincia are better than Oliver (absolutely fucking MIND blowing), but I know that being a shitty unpromoted Lance Knight/Cavalier is comparable to being a staff user. Fucking great.EDIT: not healer, staff user I'm referring to rescue staffs and how this "there are better units to use anyway LOL that affects their tier placement" is still a stupid argument. Cut the condescending comments. EXCEPT I'M NOT SAYING HEALING IS THE ONLY STAFF UTILITY. You can even use the Sleep staff against a random enemy that you feel would give you trouble, and Silencing random ranged sages helps too.

tvtropes said that Ike "went to foreign lands" like "my hamster went off to the farm."

Everyone ignored me when I brought up a not-so-different case in favor of Karel, except he's still below characters like Bors/Merlinus/etc who are actually comparable to Fiona/Meg/Lyre in use. Erm... how? Can we say the same about like Meg or Astrid then lol? Because Astrid without transfers is not at all salvageable it seems, especially taking into account the fact that they don't get nearly as much out of a BEXP level up as Lyre does. I'd love to see it, actually, or at least the brainstorming behind it. Everyone's competing for an endgame slot you know... it just happens that Oliver's probably the best person to place in that slot out of every single healer anyway, if you want a healer. Random rescue chaining isn't a bad thing for when you'd want to use it, anyway, if we're comparing to any other staff user in competition for the staff slot, of course not getting into the fact that he's still useful for whatever staff utility he can provide which, if someone's going to play the "outclassed and takes up a slot" card on me again, is better than another generic combat unit for the endgame. I'm fairly sure the argument was that Oliver was useful for using this, even if Micaiah's already force deployed. He actually covers more range than Micaiah and heals for more, anyway.

Astrid has a hard time doing things in 2-3 as far as I'm aware, and 3-9 she's good for a tiny amount of chip and nothing more if memory serves. Just noticed this, rescue-dropping what, exactly? When you recruit her, the only things left in Part 1 are Chapter 7 (semi-indoors), 8 (tons of terrain to not let her do anything, is she even deployable in this chapter?), and endgame (indoor, again). 3-6 has her doing virtually nothing considering she doesn't have stats at this point unless you, by some miracle, get her promoted. 3-12... what rescue-dropping, exactly? And how is she doing it? 3-13 is NOT a rescue dropping chapter and she'll get mauled in an instant. Part 4 is self-explanatory, she gets mauled by everything under the sun and there's no rescue-dropping involved.Zero rescue dropping is... not at all as significant as Pelleas' chip, either from Fenrir or some other Dark tome with some weird ass name that I don't remember at all because for some reason they decided not to use classics like Flux, Luna, or Eclipse. So you state "Elincia outclasses Oliver" after my spiel about how stupid the argument is. Many characters are better than Fiona at... rescue dropping in Part 4 but that was not at all apart of my argument. In her own tier? Absolutely not. Kyza more or less fucking sucks too but he's nowhere near as low as Lyre.I'm not sure what Lehran is doing as high as he is if nobody was willing to listen to my case in favor of Karel.

And therefore you do an amazing job of justifying just why Elincia, Mist, Rhys, Laura, and every other mage is a better character than Oliver, doing nothing to argue against his tier placement. Seriously, why the fuck do people keep bringing up this "compare to others who do the same thing" fallacy when people end up saying the exact same thing in response each time? It's irritating. If recruitment costs were truly a reason to hamper someone's tier placement, then you wouldn't see Geitz in Upper Mid.I'm not saying Oliver's good, i'm just saying everyone's logic sucks. I'd rather take an endgame healer than whatever Meg/Fiona/Lyre can do (but Lyre shouldn't be a whole tier below Meg and Fiona because at least BEXP can salvage Lyre; Meg/Fiona will have a tough time even with BEXP, considering Lyre gets +5 or +6 from every BEXP level up if you so desire whereas Meg/Fiona will always get +3, and Lyre caps some stats easier allowing for better BEXP abuse and yeah I mean I'm not sure where I'm going with this but Meg/Fiona are almost completely unusable on HM). I'm not even sure what Oliver's doing below Kurth, considering Kurth only really... blocks Dragons in one chapter (I'm pretty sure he gets 2-3HKO'd everywhere without contributing ANYTHING to the team), and I don't even think that's very useful considering the target for the dragon chapter is like 3 turns or something low. Oliver's healing comes in handy whenever, Fortify or not. In fact, being an extra person existing to actually do all of those things is a boon in itself.

Though that kinda stuff makes sense, I have a 16-yr-old cousin that looks exactly like some random other 35-year-old cousin I have (both are on my dad's side, and both are my dad's siblings' children, but different siblings for each; the 35-yr-old is my dad's sister's son and the 16-yr-old is my dad's brother's son).

His hair is also slightly more bluish in tone, not unlike Ashnard. Probably refers to Ashnard.

but its pretty much fact by now anyway, i see a slight resemblance between fe10 soren and fe9 ashnard too. since when do sons look exactly like their fathers? Ike only has a couple *hints* of greil in him (though his FE10 resembles Greil far more) and he looks enough like Rajaion and Kurthnaga to make her Almedha's branded son.

Not off the top of my head, sorry. I'm just giving a rather simple goal you can get to without all that much trouble... (also, bold what you're trying to say if you're going to quote my entire post, I didn't know why you quoted my post for a while...) I posted that already, except with extra Wind Edge and more detail ^_^

The way you said it gave me the impression that you were, sorry.

I'll continue my draft this Sunday. Shadow Hearts: From the New World has been taking up my time.

Sorry I should start playing Radiant Dawn again LOL 2-1 is an 8 turn right? That's what ended up happening with my strategy, anyways... Nephenee wants to park in front of the boss on Turn 7 player phase, get hit just enough to get her to Wrath% and kill the boss. And I meant next to.

I had a Lucia/Lethe strategy for 2-1 but that'll get you at least one penalty >_< (6 turns without penalty, though). The point is to have everyone stand back and have Lethe take the north with Lucia taking the southeast with a Silver Sword (you need to switch to Wind Edge for a couple turns), then on Turn 5 (?) Lethe and Lucia should meet up. Lucia needs to attack the General in front of the boss with a Silver Sword on turn 5, Lethe switches Lucia's equipment so Lucia equips the Wind Edge. That way, Lucia attacks the boss on Turn 5 EP and kills the General (you may need to proc a critical somewhere, either with Silver Sword or Wind Edge, in order to kill the general) so Lethe can easily kill the boss on Player Turn 6 and Lucia Arrives on Turn 6. Lethe wants to use a Laguz Stone on Turn 1 and Leanne should refresh her if applicable, the other part is that she wants to use Olivi Grass every single turn. You can't do this with Mordecai because he can't double/kill the boss like Lethe can (IIRC?) although you can try and see if I'm wrong. I just remember failing a lot with Mordecai and getting like 1 turn short. Generally you want to progress east as quickly as possible with Lethe, and there may be a turn where she will have to sit still, but this lures enemies away from Lucia too so she can get to the General in front of the boss. As for 2-E, just place Elincia right in front of the Steel Longbow Archer. That way, Ludveck's only option is to attack from 1-range.