Lord Raven

As for our discrepancies in our lists; Black Knight should not be that far above Muarim or Nailah if he's going to be that high. Muarim is indeed the sole "God unit" in his chapter, so I see where you are coming from with Muarim > Nailah and I will keep that in mind when I remake the list in order to reflect that. The black knight's position as being that high is something that is iffy to me -- I'm aware he comes in during 3-6 but doesn't he come quite late into the chapter? I'm honestly not sure how that could help *that* much that it puts him above Muarim and Nailah. I haven't played 3-6 in a long time on hard mode but when I played it the Zihark/Volug B Support and Sothe going off on his own (and in a real playthrough you'd have a decent Jill and Nolan with Tarvos helping out) was enough that the Black Knight was around for like 3-4 turns. This wasn't even an efficient playthrough, either, it was just for the sake of going through hard mode (and I didn't know of efficiency at this point either). Micaiah's Thani dropping is not useful enough to place her over things like Zihark/Jill, considering she still only really ends up hitting Armors with it. You get a Hammer by the time Jill comes around, and Zihark's Earth support (especially with Volug) boosts his durability and thus his ability to actually go out on the offensive. This is bolstered by his transfer gains. I do agree with Zihark > Jill without Transfer > Tauroneo though, but I don't see any reason to have Micaiah there. I'd actually go so far as to say Zihark > Jill No Transfer > Muarim > Nailah > Black Knight > Tauroneo if anything. Rafiel indeed works when going down to Mid. Vika, Tormod, Micaiah are also down to mid. In my opinion it should instead go something like Rafiel > Micaiah > Tormod > Vika, actually. Laura's durability blows, Edward helps a lot with 1-P, a bit with 1-1 and 1-2, and that's just about the extent of Edward's help; longterm building up with him and Aran is indeed good, but the fact of the matter is that it's not going to happen. It's just not very practical. I think Edward at least deserves bottom of mid for this utility, but that's it. Vika's speed and movement is a good quality in her favor, which is why she's in Mid; I'd put her below Edward for that reason. Her gauge isn't too bad, either. Now we have Low tier. Ilyana's good for potshotting, Leonardo's good for potshotting, and yes Leonardo's availability in potshotting is better than Ilyana's because his are directly worked into strategies. Ilyana's aren't necessarily, and I want to wait for more precise judgments when dealing with Leonardo/Ilyana; for now I'll place Leonardo above Ilyana but that's more or less it. Aran's not going to be used long term, and honestly he can't attack as well as Ilyana nor is he, as far as I know, factored into strategies like Leonardo can be. Leonardo > Ilyana > Aran is looking likely for me right now. Laura's position as a healer is the only thing going for her. She is not always necessary, however, for low turn strategies and she is actually a very large burden simply because she gets doubled in the chapter she enters, and she doesn't catch up fast enough without BEXP to actually be of use anywhere. Laura makes sense below Aran. I can't think at all of how Meg's chipping would be factored into a low turn strategy. Not one bit. Fiona can even chip in 3-6 and she helps out with 3-13 through chipping (as in, laguz gauge killing) and transporting allied units to chokeholds. I actually have her above Aran simply because Aran can't be as big a utility as Fiona, in any circumstance. And Meg could just go to the bottom of Low because she doesn't have any redeeming qualities. Low and Bottom tiers with these new refurbishes (you actually helped me) are very iffy to me now, if anyone could help? EDIT: This was all at aku chi, i was postsniped.

Then argue it because I only put that list together in like 10 minutes not taking much into account. Not that Edward's very useful past the point Leonardo is in HM anyway.

Leonardo doesn't have much chip once we get past 1-3 though, deployed or not. That actually does put a point in his favor against someone like Edward, though. But you are right, I'm just wondering if his chip is worth that much more than saving a bunch of turns in 1-7 by carrying Micaiah in that strategy. As for Lughnasadh, I can't imagine him doing much with that bow considering he'll at best have gained 1 or 2 level ups throughout Part 1. I've made the Nephenee > Lucia changes actually, cause the Steel Lance idea escaped me. I also changed Nealuchi to > Lethe and I moved Marcia-T back to the bottom of High... The Nealuchi being < Lethe I think was a result of the fact that I changed my mind about 2-P midway through looking at the list.

Yes it does. Why else would you split up LHM and HHM then?

Don't forget about tossing Javelins to kill laguz gauges and being able to actually get the fuck out of there in time. She *may* even go above Leonardo because of that, depending on the value of Leonardo's chip early on. I... actually agree. I'm not sure her position relative to Lucia, personally, but depending on the sheer amount of weirdness with arguing Part 2 I may just scrap Part 2 altogether.I guess Neph's wrathcritting the boss isn't as valuable as Lucia's dealing with 2-2, so I'll place her below Lucia.

Fiona can rescue Micaiah for a 5-turn of 1-7 iirc. Meg can't come close to that. I'd appreciate it if no one was condescending in this thread, considering what you said is on par with "this is a fucking stupid idea" -- the kind of suggestion I do not want to hear about this list. How the fuck am I trying to make Oliver look better? He's pretty much going above like half the cast in bottom tier. (Clearly you didn't stop reading there either). Part 4 and endgame are weird enough to be separate simply because of the fact that there's a steady stream of units for each portion of part 4 and a steady stream of units for the endgame itself. I'm basically looking towards judging portions of "steady streams of units" if that makes sense.

I'm going to play around with Part 2's a little bit (I'd actually think we scrap 2-P if anything, just because of the weirdness 2-P adds). That is a valid suggestion, though, and I grouped the invaluable units (Neph, Elincia, Haar) at top (Haar > Elincia but Haar and Neph are in no particular order). This also leaves Marcia has only existing to like... get a transfer chain to Leanne (then Haar) for a Speedwing assuming you didn't send it to the convoy in 2-3. I'm still keeping 2-P as a factor in the Part 2 tier list but I'm curious as to what people think about 2-P. 2-P barely deserves its own tier list because it's a defend map and there's no way to low turn it at all.

First off, you don't boost Sain and Kent on the HHM tier list because of their performance in Lyn's mode. You do factor in their Lyn mode levels, but not their performance. Yes, in theory, we should, because that is much more helpful (Especially for this game) than an overall tier list. It's... a bit more major than Kurth shoving Rafiel. What is the difference between "helping/contributing" and "assisting" exactly? It's far too general for a game that relies entirely on specific strategies until Part 4. And I wasn't just referring to this tier list, you know, because there are a myriad of characters in every other tier list that are "tiered" in the sense that they are on the list, but they also will never be used in an efficient playthrough. No... the fact that Oliver is being used means that it's an inefficient runthrough, the same sort of inefficient runthrough that lets Astrid/Lyre be judged effectively as well. Condescending much? I'm doing jack all to state that I want such a list, I'm stating that comparing Lyre's/Astrid's performance in their forced chapters is fair enough to comparing Oliver's performance in the endgame when we're tiering. If I were arguing such a tier list then you'd definitely see me placing Oliver just below Bastian because of that; but I'm fucking not and you enjoy constantly exaggerating every single one of my points. That is... exactly why splitting it up makes it easier. Yes but that at least allows some deal of consistency with all Fire Emblem tier lists rather than having extremely odd standards for this one tier list just because of the nature of the game. That's not the point. FE6/7 are very linear games that allow for the same degree of relativity between characters within the tier list.This general tier list has many different degrees of relativity factored into it (for example, Haar is kicking the entire GM's ass but Sothe is kicking the entire DB's ass in their respective chapters yet Haar is a good tier above Sothe). I'm not exactly sure how to word my point, but Sothe is amazing until Part 4 where he's forced into 4-P and 4-3 but cannot do anything in it due to sucky offense for instance. Geoffrey is fucking fantastic in the two CRK chapters he's in. Brom is very good in 2-1 and 2-2 but cannot keep up with the GMs. How exactly does one judge extremely sudden spikes of extreme usefulness/uselessness in a game that relies entirely on specific strategies? The units forced into each chapter differ, and the unit pool is always extremely different between chapters (sometimes). With the other FE games, you just added a couple units every chapter, no big deal, and people more gradually fade out of usefulness which is more easily taken into account. That is what I'm talking about. I'm still not sure how to word my exact gripe with this list, but that's the best I can do. Also, you said something about tier gaps not being significant -- they are significant, why do you think there exists one tier for Wendy/Sophia to place them far below the characters directly above them? People even argue about adjacent characters that are a tier away from each other because it implies significance. Relevant to the actual tier list: Fuckin what? How many strategies even make heavy use of Soren's chip compared to the 2-3 and 3-9 strategies that are ultimately reliant on Geoffrey? Soren can't even double until he gets a Master Crown and he needs BEXP to at least cap speed.

I'm going to try this out. Copying the following from Red Fox: But this one has a twist. Instead of the iffyness of comparing two units in separate playtimes, we end up comparing units within the same playtimes which is... more useful. I've split it up into the following: Therefore, we lead to the following names for each tier list: Dawn Brigade (Covers Part 1, 3-6, 3-12, 3-13) Part 2 tier list (2-P, 2-1, 2-2, 2-E) CRKs (2-3, 3-9) Greil Mercenaries (3-P to 3-5, 3-7 to 3-8, 3-10, 3-11, 3-E) Part 4 (4-P to 4-5) (contemplating switching this to 4-P/4-3, 4-1/4-4, 4-2/4-5) Endgame (4-E-1 to 4-E-5) Because comparing Lehran to Lethe is fucking weird. Finally, if I don't specify transfers I imply it doesn't matter in that particular character's tiering. [spoiler=Dawn Brigade]Top Sothe Volug Nolan Jill (T - Str, Skl, Spd, Def) High Jill Zihark Nailah Black Knight Muarim Tauroneo Mid Micaiah Edward Tormod Rafiel Vika Laura Low Leonardo Ilyana Aran Bottom Fiona Meg [spoiler=Part 2]Top Leanne High Nephenee (T) Brom Nephenee Lucia Nealuchi Lethe Mordecai Haar Elincia Heather Mid Marcia Bottom Calill I'm not sure if I should tier the CRKs performance in 2-E on here; they are available, technically speaking, but should we only assume the 1-turn clear? [spoiler=CRKs] In order of quality: Kieran (T - Str, Skl, Spd, Def) Geoffrey Kieran Makalov (T - Str, Skl, Spd, Def) Marcia Danved Makalov Calill/Astrid There's too few characters for proper tiers, but these are actually somewhat important as far as rating someone like Geoffrey goes. I repeat that these apply to 2-3 and 3-9 only. [spoiler=Greil Mercenaries]Top Haar Titania Ike High Mia (T - Str, Skl, Spd) Reyson Oscar (T - Str, Skl, Spd) Mia Shinon Gatrie (T - Str, Skl, Spd, Def) Boyd (T - HP, Str, Skl, Spd) Gatrie Nephenee (T - Str, Skl, Spd) Upper Mid Oscar Ulki (T - Str) Janaff Ulki Mordecai Ranulf Heather Middle Jill (T - Str, Skl, Spd, Def) Zihark (T - Str, Skl, Spd) Nephenee Leanne Tanith (T - Str, Skl, Spd) Marcia (T - Str, Skl, Spd) Boyd Rhys Mist Lower Mid Soren (T - Mag, Skl, Spd, Res) Sigrun Tanith Jill Marcia Rolf (T - Str, Spd) Soren Rolf Low Kyza Brom Zihark Kieran (T - Str, Skl, Spd) Makalov (T - Str, Spd, Def) Bottom Ilyana Lethe Makalov Astrid (T - Str, Skl, Spd) Lyre Astrid [spoiler=Part 4, Micaiah's Group]Top Naesala Leanne Jill Haar High Skrimir Nealuchi Janaff Ulki Sigrun Tanith Micaiah Volug Marcia Tanith Mid Sothe Nolan Zihark Nephenee Boyd Shinon Mia Heather Sanaki Calill Low Lethe Mordecai Kieran Makalov (T) Danved Rolf Oscar Rhys Kyza Lyre Stefan Bottom Makalov Astrid Stefan Edward Ilyana Aran Leonardo Brom Meg Fiona Gatrie Laura [spoiler=Part 4, Ike's Group]Top Ike Nailah Rafiel High Titania Nolan Jill Zihark Haar Boyd Oscar Shinon Gatrie Mia Janaff Ulki Mid Volug Nealuchi Nephenee Heather Mordecai Kieran Makalov (T) Tanith Muarim Soren Mist Low Marcia Brom Lethe Astrid Makalov Danved Calill Rolf Rhys Vika Bottom Tormod Edward Leonardo Laura Ilyana Aran Meg Fiona Kyza Lyre Oliver [spoiler=Part 4, Tibarn's Group]Top Tibarn Elincia Reyson High Nolan Jill Zihark Boyd Oscar Shinon Gatrie Mia Janaff Ulki Haar Mid Volug Marcia Nealuchi Nephenee Kieran Makalov (T) Calill Tanith Ranulf Volke Low Tauroneo Brom Heather Lethe Mordecai Makalov Astrid Danved Geoffrey Bastian Bottom Pelleas Lucia Edward Leonardo Laura Ilyana Aran Meg Fiona Rolf Rhys Kyza Lyre And no, it's not completed from there. I was working on this for an hour, it still really sucks and I'd love to make it better (I'm not all that good a debater, I'll generally listen so long as the proof is given and I will play devil's advocate if it is not). Any degree of suggestions beyond "this is a fucking stupid idea, why did you do this" are fine, both in organizing tiers and seeing the way things work. A gameplan as to how to tier Part 4 possibly having to split that up into 3 routes -- this is what I'm leaning towards, personally) would be nice, and I can come up with a very barebones 4-E tier list after we figure out Part 4.

Then why compare the effectiveness of units who will not be fielded at all like basically all of Bottom tier, Kyza, and going into other tiers for a moment pretty much everyone below the mid tier? Why not just create a list of units that are "will NEVER be used in an efficient playthrough?" In fact, why not just come up with a basic strategy for an efficient playthrough (chapter-by-chapter) and judge the game based on that? That would make much more sense than saying "well they won't be used in an efficient playthrough, an efficient playthrough demands x and y." No but how are we supposed to judge the effectiveness of 1 (or 3) chapter wonders compared to long-term use units like Haar? Characters help entirely differently in those 1-2 chapters than, say, someone like Boyd or Gatrie would in their many amounts of chapters. Black Knight is absolutely invaluable for 1-9, 1-E, and 3-6 but how does this compare to units like Boyd who are good but aren't as objectively powerful? I can tell you didn't read the entire post before replying to each little tidbit. You can't really give Lehran stat boosters ever, nor BEXP. Nitpicking.Why should we? So we can judge people based on that but we're clearly arguing two different types of tier lists here. I'm listing that as a fucking option, saying that at least Oliver can assist in such a strategy whereas Lyre/Meg/Astrid cannot, I'm not saying it's the absolute best strategy. If I were saying it was the absolute best strategy then my goals for Oliver would be higher than "just above Kurthnaga." Erm, excuse me but how is Soren doing anything more in his chapters that he's available in (he does chip and can barely double at a certain point) when Geoffrey basically leads the charges in 2-3 and 3-9? I'm not sure if 6 turns is practical for 2-3 anymore but Geoffrey does the majority of the killing in whatever low-turn clears he does, and then 3-9's 5 turn is most likely lead by Geoffrey. He contributes more to low turns of those two maps than Soren does of any map he exists for. Err I probably worded that wrong but you're nitpicking here, dude. I'm not going to argue him out of his position -- that's fucking crazy -- but he has doubling problems at a certain point. Although he is the best person to give that Part 2 Speedwing to.. So we agree... because the tier list as it looks seems *extremely* cluttered with various units who have one specific use then exist to do jack all after that use is gone. Separation by portions makes the most sense if only because But Brom is quite helpful in 2-1/2-2 (unless all the efficient strategies -- they'd be 6 turns in Hard Mode too, right? -- don't ever rely on Brom killing which is kinda doubtful but oh well), which is why it doesn't make sense to judge Brom as a GM and then judge Brom as a... "Crimean Knight" in usefulness. Then we're judging Soren as a "mediocre growths unit" compared to judging Geoffrey as "the leading man of two chapters" and making the former much higher than the latter. There are some patterns that we can easily compare things to, considering there are long streams of chapters that exist which allow us to effectively remove the very very iffy comparison of Giffca who rapes the endgame and Boyd who does a pretty decent job of doing what he does.If it's not easy, convenient, or anything then why do we keep arguing something like "oh the couple of chips y can do is better than the endgame performance of x"? Their performances only exist in tandem during the endgame chapters. I don't need two people to explain it, thanks.

It's perfectly fine, also oh.

If anything multiple tier lists depending on part will have more value for new people looking at them, from where I stand.

I also say Caineghis > Giffca because Caineghis can attack once more on Turn 1 than Giffca, potentially. They're basically the same unit but this is just nitpicking. That's still actually beside the point I'm trying to make, I kinda wanna hear some sort of comment on my ideas... i could make a thread about it instead, though, depending on what Red Fox deems to fit.

Then why judge tier lists if characters who aren't the absolute best per chapter aren't being used? Why make arguments on how quality a unit *could* be (based on the tier list) if we're just not going to field them one bit? The fact that they exist somewhere on the tier list means we still have to judge how they would be if used at all, and the fact of the matter is that about half of all units out there will absolutely not be used past their base chapter or two for an efficient run. And the final fact is that Oliver clearly does do worse in the endgame than a shitton of people, therefore he will not be deployed but if someone really wants to try and use Oliver then we should tier him based upon how effectively he can be used. Improving upon dondon's 4-turn strat for an alternate 3-turn strat (what with more physical units) allows a ton of use for your staffs, and the fact is that you only lose one turn for using him whereas using Astrid/Lyre/etc shaves off many, MANY other resources you could be using. But honestly? I no longer give a fuck about this argument or this list because I'm going to post a large paragraph gripe about how this could be done more accurately or efficiently. It would also making arguing this tier list far more convenient in certain ways. And yes, this is me conceding, but with a suggestion; I can't argue with any of you any longer simply because we have been going in circles for a while and we just won't get each other at all. Except, I understand fully what you're trying to say and I offer a better way to tier this shit. This was my original post, by the way, and I don't really intend on editing it much more than I already have: There is almost never simultaneous enrollment possibilities except for part 4, and we can't just compare part 4 performance now can we? Characters aren't competing as much. The fact of the matter is, Volug and all the Dawn Brigade pretty much fucking suck in Part 1 but they're in higher tiers for their performance in part 1 despite that. Most of the Greil Mercenaries essentially start trivializing the game come part 3, but many of them are between mid and top because their relative performance in part 3 is not as good as others' in part 3 despite them handling part 3's chapters much more effectively than units in part 1 handling their chapters. Therefore, making a tier list like this is... not really a good idea in the slightest because of how much the game jumps around. You can't compare absolutes and utility because the fact of the matter is that Lehran is doing jack all in Endgame-5 (seriously, I gave him Balberith and he did like 14 damage against each Aura and didn't even double, how the hell is that even useful to anything). We have Geoffrey in lower mid despite the fact that he can handle all of his chapters better than fucking Soren, both on absolute and relative terms. No, it's absolutely mind-boggling and almost completely inefficient the way we're handling tiers for this game, because as you guys say Volug's performance in Part 1 effectively fucking sucks looking from the outside in... whereas Haar's being above Top Tier is because relatively speaking, his performance in Part 3 is amazing despite the fact that it could easily be seen as relatively okay. I feel like there should be separated tier lists; one tier list for the Dawn Brigade chapters (Part 1, 3-6, 3-12, 3-13), one for Part 2 (except 2-3), one for the CRKs (2-3, 3-9), one for Greil Mercs (3-P to 3-5, 3-7, 3-8, 3-10, 3-11, 3-E), one for Part 4 performances (4-E to 4-5), and the one for the endgame. Simply because of all the jumping around making it hard to objectively compare units, considering how much relativity there exists in this game. I'm sad to say that Ayanami was my inspiration for this somewhat; he was onto something when he came onto FESS and made part-by-part tier lists; that was also too inefficient to do because of how much part 2 jumped around between two completely different armies (with a random crk chapter in there o_O), both in quality and in goal. I'm awaiting all the flaming, swearing, and condescending remarks about this suggestion because I only just thought it out over the last like 20 minutes, but we are on two completely different wavelengths on this tier list and while I understand where you're coming from, it makes it hard to argue because how much leverage each character gets depends too much on relativity and then balancing all that out and determining objective quality... gah, i can't wrap my head around it. (If anything before my saying "I can't wrap my head around it" made sense to you, congratulations, you're fucking crazy because it's how mind boggling I find the way this particular game's tier lists works). The reason I'm suggesting such a radically different way to tier this game is because of the fact that if you split it off like I did, then it *sort of* plays like a regular FE game. If anything, somewhat comparable to FE7 except you can transfer items instead of just stats. I'm kind of just rambling at this point, as I always have been, but I guarantee you I'm not trying to win an argument; I already know I've lost this Oliver argument against the likes of Lyre/Astrid/Fiona/Kurth/etc but I know for a fact I was arguing on completely different terms to begin with. Oh and I'm still sore at this "endgame requires combat units" since the same has been true of just about every Fire Emblem game, and how my Karel argument was always glossed over with nobody taking it seriously either. But that's not for here nor there.

Above Kurth, Fiona should go to bottom of Low and he should remain where he is relative to Astrid, Meg, Lyre. Lyre being an entire tier below Meg baffles me, and most importantly if Oliver moves down below Astrid then Kyza should move right below Oliver or Astrid. There's a bunch that I feel like arguing. Well, err, I'd actually want Bottom to look like this: Oliver Astrid Fiona Kurthnaga Meg Lyre OR this: somewhere in low: Astrid Fiona Bottom: Oliver/Kyza Kurthnaga Meg Lyre Oh well, let's listen to a song Of course raw performance against enemies and the map are the most important part. Obviously, everyone becoming a Dragonmaster will give Haar a little bit less simply because ferrying won't exist anymore. It still doesn't mean he can't be used (like every other Dragonmaster) to do what he does aside from that. It makes every single unit extremely valuable as opposed to making Haar less valuable aside from the ferrying utility being gone. I'm actually not really trying to BS you when I say that I've actually never had that problem with Rafiel o.o based on what you're saying he needs like +4 HP to survive on a cover tile and I guess I must've given him like 2 levels of BEXP or an Angelic Robe or something. Doesn't matter what we "need" at this point considering the quality of the units we're debating, Oliver's not the best choice which is made painfully obvious but he's still there and still contributes to low turncounts more than Astrid would.

They're higher than him. Mist's mobility doesn't actually matter when she needs to be 20/18 to reach Oliver's magic, so her extra mobility is covered by the fact that she's frail and shouldn't be entering combat anyway due to poor offense and the other fact that the amount she can canto away is covered by the fact that Oliver doesn't need to go as far as Mist does to use staffs. But that's way beside the point, the "alternate strategies" is what I'm looking to actually say, and even if characters do it better the nature of the tier list already covers that fact. But he is still good when fielded, is the main point that is trying to be made here in the favor of the tier list. No, he still has value when he's fielded. He is doing the exact same thing he is doing in the regular game that makes him so good except everyone else is doing it. Everyone else just happens to have more value, but they would be ranked above him regardless. Therefore you'd rename tiers accordingly or create strange tiers to accommodate for the change (I'd actually like to see a hack where everyone becomes a Dragonmaster in Part 3, not really to help prove your point or to see your point better or anything but the Dragonmaster class is fucking awesome). A unit who has "no use" is not necessarily a unit who is poor when fielded; he is excellent when fielded, sure not as excellent as other units, but still excellent as himself. A tier list is supposed to measure absolute, objective quality, not quality of units relevant to one another. Even if Haar is useless, there are many, MANY characters you'd still rather use him instead of, and the amount he'll be helping regardless of his use (he's not ever a negative asset, for instance; always a positive, just not as large a positive) still makes him better in quality than most units. Maybe I was thinking of Reyson? You actually could use the tiles to his advantage too instead of worrying about tide bonus. Why should other games' tier standards be any different than this game's tier standards? The fact that the format of this game is different seems like it makes it way too hard to make a good, objective tier list and even that could be kind of pointless to do.Swords aren't that good a weapon either, considering when Mia enters that's when spear users become abundant (but she's still not doing bad despite all that) so you won't even need more than Ike. Besides, as I keep saying the effective strategies require more than one staffbot anyway. Oliver contributes a hell of a lot more than Lyre and Meg, not that much more than Astrid. Oliver can still contribute *slightly." You're not honestly chipping with Bastian are you o_O Bastian's better than Oliver, the tier list dictates that already. That is not the argument. We're comparing Meg/Lyre/Astrid(/Fiona?) and Oliver. Same with Elincia (Elincia has significantly less Magic at most times, but she's not a pure staffbot). A 3-turn clear can potentially be helped by Oliver's staff utility, it's easier to kill some of the dragon blockade in 4-E-3 due to Matrona boosting chances of Mastery Skills activating and you can help against Deghinsea. Oliver still sucks, you've done a great job of covering that, I'm not at all arguing him above Bottom tier, but contributing to a bunch of alternate 3-turn strategies is better than not really doing much to contribute to low turn strategies like Astrid can't. Then why is Kyza that much higher than Meg or Lyre? Grandjackal brings up a specific example of a general point in my head.I demand the tier list to consider it when comparing him to other units, especially when you're talking endgame only units. Obviously, Oliver is less likely or wanted to be deployed in the final chapter than.... Haar (N/T - HP) Titania (T - Spd, Skl) Titania Mia (T - Str, Skl, Spd) Volug Mia Nailah Ulki (T - Str) Janaff (N/T) Ulki Oscar (T - Str, Skl, Spd) Nolan Nephenee (T - Str, Skl, Spd) Jill (T - Str, Skl, Spd, Def) Shinon (N/T - Skl, Spd) Zihark (N/T - Str, Skl, Spd) Tibarn Naesala Jill Elincia (N/T - Mag, Skl, Spd) Gatrie (N/T - Str, Skl, Spd, Def) Boyd (T - HP, Str, Skl, Spd) Nephenee Laura Oscar Mordecai (N/T) Ranulf (N/T) Marcia (T - Str, Skl, Spd) Boyd Rolf (T - Str, Spd) Marcia Heather Tauroneo (N/T) Mist (N/T - Mag, Spd) Rhys (N/T - Mag, Skl, Res) Aran Soren (T - Mag, Skl, Spd, Res) Tanith (T - Str, Skl, Spd) Giffca (T - Str) Caineghis/Giffca Muarim (N/T) Skrimir Kieran (T - Str, Skl, Spd) Makalov (T - Str, Spd, Def) Edward Tanith Kieran Tormod (N/T - Mag, Spd) Calill (N/T - Mag) Soren Brom (N/T - HP, Str, Skl, Spd, Def) Geoffrey (N/T - Spd) Lucia (N/T) Rolf Ilyana (T - Mag, Skl, Res) Leonardo Nealuchi Nasir Ilyana Ena Sigrun Makalov Volke (N/T - Str, Skl, Spd) Stefan (N/T - Str, Skl, Spd) Renning Danved (N/T - Str) Vika Lethe (N/T) Gareth Sanaki Bastian (N/T - Str) Lehran Kyza Astrid (T - Str, Skl, Spd) Pelleas But they all rank above him, anyway. I'm not saying using him is "most efficient" or even "that efficient" but i'm still arguing him against other units. When Kurth is deployed outside of 4E3 he gets mauled very very very very very very very quickly when he tries at all to enter combat. Lehran is around for one entire chapter and that's it. Astrid is doing nothing with her free slot when she's there nor does she really contribute at all to ANY low turn clears of the particular chapters she exists in, Fiona is also only contributing a 5-turn C7 clear (though I'm all for Fiona rising to Low tier as is). Apologies for that. Hey, I'm just saying Micaiah is technically worse, and it's nothing more than a technicality. This is the one point I'm not trying to take seriously or emphasize here, but overall I am trying to rebuke this point's status as relevant.

You think I haven't already conceded to that? We're debating low tiers here, which is filled with the worst characters in the game. Oliver only exists to be used in the endgame, so his endgame performance is the only thing we can really compare to Astrid, Kurth, and Meg's overall performance. Then why the fuck is Oliver even on the list? We're judging how well he does when he's used, not whether or not we'll be used. That's the point of a fucking tier list. I'm saying you can sub one of them (Bastian, Elincia) in for Oliver and the outcome of the chapter will not change because none of them entered combat. In fact, Oliver is more practical than Elincia in that sense because his extra magic covers the range she's missing, even if she does have Canto. And you're missing the point, once again, that a 3-turn clear can be done with Oliver's help. Already covered. Furthermore, a shitton of units will not be deployed because it's not optimal to do so yet they're not at the very bottom of the tier list. In fact, in most FE games, most of the tiered units will not ever be deployed in a reasonable playthrough... never. Ever. Fucking NEVER. I repeat, NEVER. But the fact of the matter is when we're arguing them, we don't take this into account because their position on the tier list already covers that argument. You're pretty thick too if you're going to keep mentioning this as a counter argument. I'm pretty well aware that many units will not be deployed in 4-E in a regular, efficient playthrough; that is not the point of a tier list of an efficient playthrough. Oliver sucks too much to be deployed in the final chapter, that is why he is in low tier, I understand that. But if you're going to compare his ability to take off turns to that of other low tiers, you have to assume he will be deployed in the chapter he's available to make the argument. The same goes for Astrid, Meg, etc and the fact of the matter is that for any of them to be any useful (in Astrid's case, past a certain point) they must be babied. Oliver must take up a slot, I'm full aware of the fact, but that penalty applies to just about every single character in this game anyway, and frankly strategies exist that allow him to contribute to a 3-turn of 4-E-1. Point brought up earlier, but 24 mag = 4 less range than Oliver, and she doesn't have to promote above level 10. I'm saying a strategy exists, not that it's the most optimal. The 5-turn for 3-9 doesn't involve Astrid and I can't see how Astrid could contribute to alternate 6 or 7-turn strategies, because alternate 3-turn strategies use the staff. I'm not using it as a primary argument, I'm basing the argument off of that. And I repeatedly say that there are alternate strategies that use two staff users anyway? Even if there's no need for "two staffbots" the strategies that use support staves end up having two staff users anyway so this is barely an argument anymore. But then again, it sparked up controversy about some tier list hypotheticals that could be fairly useful in the future. The different wording is subtle enough to actually make my point different. I didn't mean "no one to compare to," I meant that there was nobody that could do his job as effectively, so I apologize for that awkward wording. At any rate, that is beside the point; your point is that he's so high because nobody could do his job as effectively as him, my point is that he's so high because his mobility and power are very good regardless of how you slice it, and it just so happens that every other character is lower than him in that regard. There is a subtle difference that I'm not sure you're catching. You're missing my point too. (12HKO'd in return? I'd love a unit that only gets 12HKO'd in return for ORKO half and 2RKO the other half, at any rate, but I know for a fact you made a typo, you're definitely not stupid after all). It definitely does matter what Haar can do despite everyone else being able to do it better; if he can do it very good too, then he's still very high on the tier list. Besides the point. If you're going to compare someone's performance, then you have to assume they'll be fielded for the period of time in which you wish to evaluate their performance, with optimal deployment in all the other slots. Haar's performance is "redundant" but it still exists as high quality were he to be deployed. The point is that his position on the tier list would not change (nor would anyone else's who stays the same) but every unit who gets buffed would end up going higher than they currently are, and even higher than Haar if they got buffed enough. It does not hamper Haar's performance in the slightest; he exists as a top tier unit, but so do a bunch of other units. Essentially, he's still a broken unit among broken units. Rafiel is perfectly able to survive one AOE attack, Kurth doesn't need to rescue him. I'll give you the shoving, though.Where's Twilkitri when I need him -_- Red Fox I admire the amount of patience you have for me bringing up a point like this. Anouleth, you could do better with your attitude, you're getting me riled up over a game. Oh, by the way, Mia's pretty high up on this tier list, despite being outclassed by a ton of fighters (all of which are higher than her, by the way) come both early-game, midgame, and endgame time. But this isn't taken into account when arguing for her, obviously. Also, Ike is a much better sword user and he's forced, so why use Mia at all when we have Ike? Double standards have been applied to these tier lists. Browse around the latter posts and you'll see interceptor's arguments.

And that's why he's low tier! Thanks for bringing up that argument repeatedly only to have the person you're arguing with know that you're right. I'm well aware that Oliver blows, thank you! I'm not saying that he's good at all, and your argument would be amazing anyway if I was arguing that, but I've still been gauging Oliver's performance in the endgame compared to Astrid's in 2-3 and 3-9 to Oliver being deployed in the endgame or Kurthnaga being used at all in the endgame. In which case, I've argued my case in favor of both of these while arguing against the various arguments that state "Oliver takes up a slot in the endgame"... considering the amount of non-royals units dondon brought into the endgame and 4-turned with staffbotting quite a lot it definitely gives Oliver a chance to shave off turns. More turns than Astrid's chipping can, considering the 3-9 5-turn apparently doesn't at all rely on Astrid's chipping. Kurth cannot do anything. At all. Ever. What? Someone said "chip" except he can barely do that without getting mauled. The ranged Sages will kill him, the double bow sniper kills him easily, any unit that touches him can 2-3HKO him because of how easily he gets doubled. I'm aware that the same arguments apply to Oliver and they all kill him worse (well, the Sages won't do that much to him), except that I'm not arguing at all that Oliver is an offensive unit. Keeping him out of harm's way is not a big deal, considering how easily it is to rout any enemy that would come into his range (and dondon's 4-turn takes precautions when doing that). Kurthnaga's utility relies on being in harm's way, and if he's adjacent enough to a unit to give them defense boosts (which they won't even completely need) then he's actually pretty likely to be attacked, and if Kurthnaga attacks that definitely insinuates some degree of frontlining... not that it does anything to reduce turn count. I'm also aware that 4-E-1 can easily be 2-turned without Oliver, but my point is that alternate 3- or 4- turn strategies at least exist (on top of the fact that staff users were used in 4-E-3 and 4-E-5 on the playthrough), whereas Astrid has just as much if not less involvement for alternate strategies in 2-3 and 3-9.

Erm, I'm saying "if we need to take 10 units, you take 9 of your best units + Oliver," that's what I've been assuming as the criteria for his endgame performance. That's what I've been saying.

idk dude micaiah's offense blows past thani use in part 1 (HM at least), I'm not sure how much Micaiah would end up being used in efficient play FE10 HM but Level 17 doesn't sound all that realistic for a first promotion.dondon's strategy allows for 2 staff users at any rate, Oliver's magic is second only to Bastian at this point no matter what happens. Then I guess that's why he's lower than them all. On top of other advantages that Micaiah possesses... but she's already better than Oliver on the tier list so what is the point in repeatedly reiterating that Micaiah is better than Oliver? A ton of units are higher than Oliver just because they're that much more useful to him. Yes I did, but it's how I made the point that was different; what you said was that Haar is only that good because he's the only unit that is that way whereas I pretty much said that everyone's below him because of that. He isn't that high because there's no one to compare to, he's that high because everyone else is inferior to him because he has those advantages. That still doesn't stop him from staying where he is, it just so happens that everyone else elevates above him because of all of that. That is the point that *I* am trying to make. The point is that inferiority is not equatable to "suck" or "loses quality." Besides, would you rather have 7 powerful Dragonmasters or 8 powerful Dragonmasters when you can deploy 8? I'd take 8. You're pretty much turning the army into a superbroken bundle of fucking badasses is what your analogy is doing, it's not detracting from Haar's quality but merely adding quality. Yes, and Oliver is still much lower than Micaiah/Laura/Rhys/Soren/Bastian/Elincia/ANY OTHER UNIT THAT CAN USE STAVES THAT I CANNOT BE FUCKED TO MENTION, which is quite aptly covered by the large tier gaps between Oliver and all of those units. I've acknowledged that Haar would fall behind other units, but the tiers would be heavily restructured to accommodate for the fact that everyone's movement parameters have now improved a shitload. You pretty much ending up screwing the tiering system that way, and Haar's use as an individual unit would still be fantastic, he just wouldn't look as good (but still end up being better than characters like Nolan, Zihark, etc) because there are simply many units better than him. That doesn't at all downgrade his quality. I know I keep hammering this but it feels like it's a strange argument for me to word, especially considering we're given an excessively hypothetical scenario that I'm attempting to break down and examine in my head at 5:30 am. It's been taken away from every mounted unit's value, at any rate, but that is beside the point.

I mentioned specifics with dondon's strategy which indeed used more than 1 staff user. Not that I feel that matters, because his Micaiah was *essentially* 1/1/1 (you can get by with a 1/1/1 Micaiah and play efficiently). So in the case that the 1/1/1 happens, what of Oliver then? That's how I feel a Tier List judges merit, because that's free of all bias and comparison. Your argument seems to rely on the fact that units competing for slots is always an issue against every unit, which is simply not true; Oliver loses out on slots when you're thinking of who to deploy for the final chapter but this is covered by the very nature of the tier list. Imagine him as the sole staffbot unit and then judge, because there is a very good chance of a severely underleveled Micaiah not being able to do nearly as much.Not that I'm ruling out the possibility only in favor of Oliver; it boosts Bastian somewhat, too. It boosts more or less everyone. And he is actually not outclassed by Micaiah if that is what you're saying; he is merely outclassed by just about every other unit which makes sense considering he's that low. Let me be frank when I say that those are two massive positives that nobody else matches, obviously. But that's why everyone's lower than him on this tier list. He's absolutely invaluable in the chapters he's in for Part 3 (and 2-E), but this is obvious and the reason isn't because he's the "only powerful flier in part 3," it's because his movement and offensive parameters outclass every unit beneath him and it gets the job done much more efficiently when he exists than when he doesn't exist. After all, if some units didn't exist (say, Mia/Boyd/Gatrie), Haar would still be that high because while he doesn't have as many units to compare to, he is still fucking powerful; conversely, if Haar were to not exist, nobody's tiers would be shifted and Ike would be the best character in the game. It's that simple. I apologize if this sounds like rambling, but this boils down to Haar's mobile/offensive parameters are so nice that it allows him to shave off enough turns to place him above every unit in the game. No, Haar would still not suck as a unit if everyone were a Dragonmaster. Especially if we give them the same base stats; it would just mean that Haar is relatively weaker because the movement parameters catch up and everyone can wield an Axe. Haar would still be very high on the list, but units like Ike, Gatrie, and Titania for instance would go even further above him. In other words, he'd be just as good, he just wouldn't look as good and instead the tier scale would move upwards. I'd like to note that his stats are still better than most of the Greil Mercs at that point no matter how you slice it, so changing everyone to Dragonmaster pretty much only has him second to Ike. If there were a char that was basically Haar with 2 less in every stat, Haar would still look extremely good, but the other unit would also be considered good because he's merely a slightly inferior Haar.Of course, if everyone were a Dragonmaster, the game would play much differently. You didn't factor that, because then Haar is merely among a group of broken units (all top tier). You wouldn't even have to carry Ike around in the odd chapter here and there where you'd need to do that to get him somewhere quick, because Ike would be flying and shit. This comparison does nothing to contradict my point.

Cool shit except that's not at all the case. Since Micaiah can use staves... well, Oliver can still use staves. So he still has that 5 extra maps to save turns, because Micaiah's existence doesn't put him out of a job, it just means you're less likely to use him over Micaiah in any given scenario in the endgame; Micaiah > Oliver on the tier list so the tier list agrees with you in that argument. But that is not the argument being made here.And yes, I am saying it wouldn't elevate their positions. But it still is crippling if your logic is applied. But clearly, this argument is never brought up so it's a non-issue; why apply a double standard for staffbots? Doesn't matter, Oliver's endgame is still on par with Micaiah's no matter how you wrap it around, but that really is irrelevant considering I'm making a point that states that this doesn't matter at all in Oliver's placement. You give them to me and I'll check them out and make an argument. It's your point, not mine. Well, thanks for that tidbit of information. Massive matter of interpretation.On the subject of dondon, did anyone else notice the sheer amounts of staff using he performed in 4-E-1, the amount he used it in 4-E-3, and even 4-E-5? I knew I wasn't fucking crazy for remembering that and bringing up staff utility all the time. . Hell, Hammerne'ing a rescue staff that Micaiah is to use is good enough as is.He even used Bastian in there. Replace Bastian with Oliver, Elincia with Oliver, etc (he couldn't even use Micaiah because she was 1/1/1 for all I&P) and you have basically the same exact thing.

Not at all. I'm listening, bro. My point also applies to pretty much everything below like Mid or Upper mid tier. Just thought I'd let you know why I made that statement. No, being outclassed as a staffbot does nothing to tier position, just relative tier position, once again. If Micaiah couldn't use staves in the Tower then it would do nothing to go against any other staffbots deployed; such is the way a tier list works. That's like penalizing every single unit for being a combat unit because Ike is forced in every chapter he exists in because Ike is the second best unit in the fucking game, but you know for a fact that it's not the way it works (compare the necessities of a combat unit to the necessities of a staffbot, it's very much the exact same point but in different magnitudes). Don't even start with me. If she's that ridiculously low level I suggested, she covers 3-5 less tiles than Oliver or something like that. Then show me the other users who have proved it. I don't give any less of a fuck how tired and busy you are, if you can't bring up the numbers to back up your point when you try to contradict me, then you may as well not post at all instead of making further, unbacked baseless claims. Show me the numbers as to why Astrid is saving turns. I already stated that Oliver's got some potential with Rescue use and Matrona staff directly helping your units with, well, max Biorhythm crucial for skill activation and evasion.

I heard ignoring points that cover both of these arguments is hip. I'm a math major, don't tell me to do math.You are correct, you would never ever deploy Oliver in the scenario where all you can do is play efficiently. Kudos. You're a fucking great man for stating that over and over again, and using that as the primary argument against Oliver. You deserve a prize! Because you're so fucking good at determining the point of a tier list that you ignore all valid points that are against yours especially because we're comparing low tiers and not mid and upper mid tiers. The fact that Micaiah is forced and does basically everything Oliver can do means nothing about Oliver's quality as a unit. More defined tier list things would be a fucking boon right now, considering the fact that I'm sick of people ignoring the point that outclassing has absolutely no bearing on one's tier position. Comparisons exist to see how far apart two units should be, in which case you've done a fantastic job of showing that Micaiah should be way higher than Oliver. Don't give me this "now that's too bad" bullshit on me, what if Micaiah were something like 1/1/1 (something I know is fundamentally impossible if you want to reach the endgame, don't lecture me on that, but 14/8/1 or something strangely jumbled up like that is not unrealistic either) and couldn't nearly do all the shit Oliver could do? Or even a promoted Mist/Elincia? Then you can see Oliver for the... not quality, but you can see him as a unit that can do *something* to lower turncounts in a couple chapters. Not that he'll be doing a bang-up job of it, but he's fucking Low Tier as is, and I'm sure we've all proven our points as to why he should be low tier. Ignoring requests like for actual numbers to back up your points is overrated, too. Even my half-assed naming strategies seemed to be more credible than your "using chip to break through enemies" right now.

I keep mentioning he has use in whatever certain strategies you decide to use in the first 2 of those 5, he can boost everyone's fuckin biorhythm to max with two arm scrolls (you have enough money to give him two arms scrolls by that point) on top of *extra* healing utility. I'm aware Micaiah has the same benefit but that is not the point that I am making, the nature of the tier list covers that argument already. Astrid's use is okay early chip in chapter 2-3 (you'd want to kill as few units as possible in that chapter anyway since the EXP you're getting tends not to make up for the BEXP you're missing out on) and in 3-9 she's still not a very good chipper. Yeah I figured that at some point... I'm not sure how this puts her over Oliver considering the same arguments against Oliver apply against Astrid.