Ranking each game by class: Troubadours / Valkyries

[Samu_77]

2 hours ago, Eltosian Kadath said:

Half the maps before you get a free one have the chance of rescue staff; every time a merchant is rolled they get three possible items, so before chapter 8 there is roughly a 15% chance of one appearing every time a merchant is rolled, and there are numerous random chances to randomly get a rift door as well which can be more strategically used to double those odds. The odds are good enough that I have literally never seen someone so unlucky on a run as to not have been able to buy at least one rescue staff before Maribelle shows up. Stat boosters (assuming you want a specific one) on the other hand are far rarer (3%).

Getting a second seal is common enough if you want to spend the money on it, so having the second seal for Virion seems perfectly reasonable, it is just cost about double a full Rescue staff, so a notable use monetary resources (like giving Virion a forge to make him more viable), and exp to use it on him, and other units could use it (or the money you spent on it), so it isn't exactly a perfect fix for the guy.

I have played Awakening at least a dozen times in my life and never once have I gotten a Rescue Staff before Mariable, there's barely any time to whatsoever because you only have two chapters before Marriable to even roll it (it might even be one but it's been awhile). Rift Door's be damned that thing is nearly impossible to get amongst all of the other items from sparklies. Your only getting this staff early if you are absurdly lucky considering the amount of shit you get otherwise or you check your 3DS like every 2 hours seeing if another Merchant Spawned. Either way it's pure RNG so it's not a contestable point because it isn't consistent at all unless you are willing to burn hours of your time.

And again with the other points, what is Valkyrie doing for you that Sage isn't? The class skills aren't very good and while in theory it's good in combat Sage just outclasses it and is an infinitely easier class to achieve for staff support then any character not named Marriable. Even if you rate the whole class, if it's worse then an option that you always have and is easier to get to then doesn't that make the class moot? 

[samthedigital]

10 hours ago, Eltosian Kadath said:

and you get one for free by chapter 8

Quote

never once have I gotten a Rescue Staff before Mariable

RNG aside is there a reason why you guys aren't mentioning the Paralogue 1 rescue staff? Maybe I missed something here.

[Eltosian Kadath]

29 minutes ago, Samu_77 said:

 

And again with the other points, what is Valkyrie doing for you that Sage isn't? The class skills aren't very good and while in theory it's good in combat Sage just outclasses it and is an infinitely easier class to achieve for staff support then any character not named Marriable. Even if you rate the whole class, if it's worse then an option that you always have and is easier to get to then doesn't that make the class moot? 

Comparing the two, going from Sage to Valkyrie nets -1 HP, -1Str, -2Mag, -1 SKL, +1 SPD, -1 DEf, +3 RES, +2 MOV, and identical growth rates, so it is giving you an extra 2 move, and higher speed, both of which are nice benefits to have. It also has staff access before promotion, which is something the mage class can't provide, and comparing Cleric to Troubadour is a very clear Troubadour win (+1 SPD, -1 RES, +2 MOV and for growth rates -5% STR, +5% MAG, -5% SKL, +5% SPD), baring the fact that Lissa is simply a better unit than Maribelle, so getting the most out of Troubadour cost resources (like reclassing Lissa). Sage is probably better overall, but Trobadour has its place before promotion, and I could definitely find times where I would appreciate the higher move (and possibly even speed) more than the magic, especially with how Dark Magic access massively overshadows anything either could do in the combat department.

 

4 minutes ago, samthedigital said:

RNG aside is there a reason why you guys aren't mentioning the Paralogue 1 rescue staff? Maybe I missed something here.

Is that where that Rescue staff I always have for that chapter come from. I always remember having one, and couldn't remember exactly where I got it, and figured it was the merchants that always provide a few refills as long as I payed attention to them (as I distinctly remember those).

 

[Whisky]

4 hours ago, Eltosian Kadath said:

Swordmaster has one massive advantage over Holy Knight, that Catherine starts as one, so it has a much lower opportunity cost to use one, and with Catherine being usable straight out of the box in spite of her class, there is even a reason to deploy a Swordmaster for a few maps while you are spending resources on unit that actually need them.

But Catherine is good despite her class, not because of it.

4 hours ago, Eltosian Kadath said:

I find the comparison a little lacking, because you have to jump through a lot more hoops to get to Holy Knight. If using the class was something I could simply do on a whim, like with Renning, I would definitely be ranking it higher. Its more like deciding to actually get and use Karla (which I actually have done, and she might be too terrible a unit to be a fair comparison), or Lehran (who is too good a unit to be a fair comparison).

It’s basically the same number of hoops as Dark Knight which I’d consider a very good class. If you used a Holy Knight instead of a Dark Knight, how much worse would it really be? It’d be worse yeah, but it’d still be a fine class. It’d still have most of the benefits of Dark Knight, it’d just deal less damage. There’s several other classes that seem a lot worse, Swordmaster, Hero, Warrior, Fortress Knight, Armored Lord, Emperor, High Lord, Mortal Savant, Great Knight. Some of those might be debatable but Holy Knight certainly has a lot of advantages over them.

Someone near the beginning of the thread mentioned Bernadetta potentially being able to make use of Rescue as a Holy Knight. Same for Flayn. Dark Knight would still be better but then that’s even more investment when people are already saying Holy Knight takes too much to get into.

Someone like Marianne should be able to certify for Holy Knight easily enough, again for less investment than Dark Knight. Bishop has some advantages in terms of support, White magic x2 and Healing+, but surely which is more useful between that or +3 Move and Cantó would depend on the map? I don’t see why it’s be a bad idea to have Marianne certify for Holy Knight and alternate between that and Bishop depending on your needs. 

[Shadow Mir]

11 hours ago, Jotari said:

Well in the three maps out of 50 where that is a thing, just get off your horse. That is a much bigger issue for mounts in almost every other game in the series. What maps are you even thinking of? Verdant Wind's finale is basically the only one with difficult terrain.

What about Crimson Flower's last two maps? And the Valley of Torment? And Gronder Redux? The Sealed Forest? The forest map used in Marianne's paralogue (as well as Petra and Bernadetta's)? In contrast, the most terrain heavy maps in non-3H games I can think of are Mount Prism in Awakening, and chapter 25 in PoR.

10 hours ago, Whisky said:

7 Move, my bad. Still 2 more than Swordmaster and combat Cantó is really good in 3H. I don’t see how it’s a shit class. It’s a high move class with combat Cantó and ranged combat and some utility. That’s several advantages over an actually shit class like Swordmaster that doesn’t seem to have anything going for it at all.

Literally every class has ranged combat. It's goddamn Three Houses, where classes are not locked by weapon type. If I need my Swordmaster to fight at range, I can just use a bow. Which is better than what crappy offensive white magic there is. Also, Swordmaster has better speed than Holy Knight (4 vs negative 1), and 5 extra damage on a better weapon type than Holy Knight. You want a class that has literally nothing going for it?! War Monk/Cleric is a thing.

10 hours ago, Whisky said:

it also doesn’t really take that much investment to get into. A bit more than most classes maybe but not unreasonable.

That's where you're wrong. As was said earlier, you're pretty much forced to train reason alongside the requirements of faith, riding and lance because the offensive white magic spells are garbage. And of course you're gonna want to train authority. Which means you're spreading experience thin. Oh, and FYI, this is the exact same fucking thing I have bashed Dark Knight for. As far as units go, Marianne is the one unit who has strengths in all three. The only other characters with faith boons have weaknesses in at least one of the other requirements or start at E in them. 

Edited October 28, 2023 by Shadow Mir

[lenticular]

Re: 3H Holy Knight.

I think there are a few characters where it's a better choice than Dark Knight. Bernadetta and Marianne have already been mentioned. Anna is similar to Bernadetta but more so, since she also has Rescue/Pass shenanigans but comes with a strength in Faith and a Weakness in Reason as opposed to being neutral in both, learns Rescue earlier, and has better magic stat. Manuela is another one, again due to having a strength in Faith and a weakness in Reason. Neither class is a great choice for her, but if all you care about is Warp and a horse, then there's a small niche for Holy Knight. And possibly more controversially, I'm also going to bring up Ingrid. She's borderline viable as a magically focused character, and arguably gets more out of White Tomefaire than its Black counterpart. Seraphim is a genuinely good spell with 8 might and 8 uses, with no other spell in the game matching it on both those metrics. Its weight is a drawback, but Ingrid has good strength for a mage and great speed, so it's not as big a problem for her as it might be. I'd consider her best attacking spells to be Thoron and Seraphim, and I'd prefer to get the increased might on Seraphim due to its extra uses. Holy Knight over Dark Knight also lets her stop training Reason at C rather than pushing on with only the lacklustre Fimbulvetr as a reward.

None of these are amazing character-defining options, but they do collectively carve out a little niche where Holy Knight can be better than Dark Knight in a few very specific situations.

[Whisky]

29 minutes ago, Shadow Mir said:

Literally every class has ranged combat. It's goddamn Three Houses, where classes are not locked by weapon type. If I need my Swordmaster to fight at range, I can just use a bow. Which is better than what crappy offensive white magic there is. Also, Swordmaster has better speed than Holy Knight (4 vs negative 1), and 5 extra damage on a better weapon type than Holy Knight. You want a class that has literally nothing going for it?! War Monk/Cleric is a thing.

You think Sword is a better weapon type than magic? If Swordmasters use a Bow for ranged attacks then you’re not getting the Faire. Holy Knights can attack at 2-3 range and then move after with Cantó. High Move and combat Cantó is so good in 3H. Bow Knight would be a better comparison to Holy Knight than the pathetic Swordmaster class. I don’t really get why you’re disagreeing with Swordmaster being a bad class. Even Holy Knight can use Bows better than a Swordmaster with the higher Move and Cantó.

Fist Faire is better than Sword Faire. I’ve checked some damage thresholds before for comparisons with Catherine, because she can’t be a Grappler or WarMaster, and in a lot of scenarios she does better as a War Cleric with Bombard than as a Swordmaster. And War Cleric has 6 Move instead of 5. Swordmasters are very slow and limited. I definitely think War Cleric is a better class for Catherine, disregarding the investment issue, and that she starts as a Swordmaster for free, but still, I’d rather work towards something better than Swordmaster eventually.

29 minutes ago, Shadow Mir said:

That's where you're wrong. As was said earlier, you're pretty much forced to train reason alongside the requirements of faith, riding and lance because the offensive white magic spells are garbage. And of course you're gonna want to train authority. Which means you're spreading experience thin. Oh, and FYI, this is the exact same fucking thing I have bashed Dark Knight for. As far as units go, Marianne is the one unit who has strengths in all three. The only other characters with faith boons have weaknesses in at least one of the other requirements or start at E in them. 

It’s really not unreasonable for a character to certify for it by level 30 though. It’s just a matter of whether you want to invest that much or would rather invest into other units instead. But I’d rather invest in this than be stuck as a 5 Move Swordmaster, if those were my only options. And it’s less investment than Great Knight, that’s a high investment class that isn’t worth it. It seems like you’re exaggerating with Holy Knight’s costs.

I don’t agree with bashing Dark Knight for that reason. Its a good class, one of the best magic classes in general and it’s easily the best magic class for any offensive based male magic user like Hubert or Hanneman, and even some female magic users like Annette.

Also in regards to terrain penalties; Dark Knight and Holy Knight still have 6 Move even if you dismount. That’s still more Move than a lot of infantry classes like Swordmaster with 5 or Warlock with 4. Seriously, high Move and Cantó is so incredibly good in 3H. Even when terrain is an issue you can Mount or dismount and move on the same turn.

Edited October 28, 2023 by Whisky

[SnowFire]

Shadow Mir's feelings on Dark/Holy Knight are well-known, yes.

I agree with the Renning analogy on Holy Knight.  If some prankster said "whoops I accidentally locked your Dark Knight into Holy Knight" it's too bad but it's not, like, tragic.  If the same prankster changed an Assassin into a Swordmaster, that's substantially more troubling.

On Awakening, I may admittedly be swayed by thinking of class judgments as being endgame / postgame weighted, because if you're using early Second Seals, it's for things like making Robin a Sorcerer or Dark Flier, making Panne a Wyvern, etc.  By the time I want to juggle my staffer's classes, it's later in the game and they've built up sufficient Magic for decent-length Rescues, so I want 'em in Valkyrie if possible.  Admittedly, in a "first half" approach, I think Valkyrie scores worse, as Maribelle / class-changed Lissa are both very frail and explodable to a sneeze.

[Jotari]

7 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

What about Crimson Flower's last two maps? And the Valley of Torment? And Gronder Redux? The Sealed Forest? The forest map used in Marianne's paralogue (as well as Petra and Bernadetta's)? In contrast, the most terrain heavy maps in non-3H games I can think of are Mount Prism in Awakening, and chapter 25 in PoR. 

Crimson Flower's second last map is a river, there's plenty of space to move around aside from the river. And Crimson Flower's last map is actually a huge boon to Holy Knights since it's one of two maps in the game where you can actually make use of it's class skill. Grondor and the Sealed Forest have a few trees, if you seriously can't handle with a mounted unit then you seriously need to rethink your playstyle. But even if you were right and these minor terrain blocks that can easily be walked around were a huge problem...you can still just dismount. 

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

Ah, the mounted healers. Why don't Troubadours play music? And why don't Valkyries fly? I don't know, but as classes go, this one has had a rather spotty presence. They make no appearances in the Archanea and Valentia games, while Tellius players can go both games without ever noticing the class! That said, in the games where they do exist, how would I rank them? From worst to best:

Spoiler

9. Radiant Dawn. Mist is your only possible Valkyrie in the game. She promotes with the exclusive Holy Crown, so while it's a non-competitive item, it also doesn't come until Part IV. Staff EXP is very stingey in Tellius, and while she can use Swords from the start, her low Strength makes this an uphill battle, even with the Florete. It can be nice having a Staffbot with Canto, and training her Sword rank to use Alondite is a fun stunt. But it's just a stunt - before promotion and after, she's mediocre at best.

8. Path of Radiance. I debated between the two games, but ultimately, decided that Mist was better in this game. She has a worse start, sure, with a pitiful 5 move and no Sword access. But using the Master Seal lets her promote earlier, even if staff-leveling is a slog. Gaining a mount is crucial in a game where cavalry is king, while the Sonic Sword is actually a solid option for her combat. Plus, she has an exclusive role in helping Ike against the Black Knight. Still not great, but she has her uses.

7. Sacred Stones. Definitely the worst GBA incarnation of these classes. L'Arachel comes halfway through the game, at a pitiful level 3, with a paltry D-rank Staves. Not only that, but Troubadour has 6 move - Valyrie and Mage Knight, 7 - which is 1 less than the Elibe games. Nonetheless, she has her uses - Mending, spamming the Torch Staff, or merely Rescue-carrying. As for "Valkyrie Natasha", the lack of anti-monster effectiveness makes this the inferior choice.

6. Awakening. Maribelle has her uses, and I could see a case to reclass Lissa to Troubadour. Doesn't get the best skills, although I guess Demoiselle could aid male allies. There's no need to use one, but they can contribute.

5. Three Houses. A very peculiar case - there's no Troubadour, while Valkyrie is a DLC-only class. That said, it's a very good one. It's the only class with an innate Magic range-boosting skill, and it provides the highest Magic modifier of any mounted class. Uncanny Blow is one of the best mastery skills in the game, too. Just a solid pick for any magical girl - either en-route to Dark Knight, or as an endgame class in its own right. As for Holy Knight, I would favor Dark Knight over it, 8 out of 10 times. But there's the 1 time where a unit has an easier time growing in Faith than in Reason, and the 1 time that they actively want White Tomefaire (say, Seraphim users).

4. FE7. Ah, Priscilla, whatever are we going to do with you? GBAFE is quite stingey with EXP from staff use, so it can take close to half the game to even reach level 10, unpromoted. Plus, she's useless under a Magic Seal! That said, she joins with solid stats and C-rank Staves, making her an invaluable resource. Not only that, but her mount and high Aid makes her a premier Rescue-carry support unit. Not a "must-use" unit, but a very solid choice.

3. FE6. This time, we have two units in this category. There's Clarine, who joins essentially in the same chapter as Priscilla... at level 1, with D-rank Staves and 2 Magic. She's a grower, not a shower. Then there's Cecilia, a Valkyrie who joins with... 2 move? Great idea, introducing her in the desert. Her stats are nothing special, and C-rank Staves is pretty meh, but A-rank Anima is incredible at this point. And either of them can provide valuable Rescue-carry support. Using at least one horseback healer is generally a great choice.

2. Fates. If I were counting Jakob, Felicia, and Flora, then I would probably put this class in first place. But I honestly don't feel that they should count, since they start without a horse, and can't directly promote into one. But even without, it's a very good class here, particularly in Conquest. Elise is an awesome support unit, and Strategist's Inspiration can synergize with her personal skill. Dwyer deserves credit for being among the first obtainable kids, if you choose F!Corrin. As for Forrest, while I find him "more style than substance", he's definitely a fun project.

1. Genealogy. By now, we're used to a Troubadour coming along to supplement your first healer. But what if your Troubadour... were your first Healer? That's the question that Ethlyn answers, and she does so phenomenally. In a game with no Vulneraries, she'll be vital for keeping your army healthy. Plus, she can use the Silver Sword to make inroads in the Arena. Even though she leaves early, I think she has a case for "3rd-best-unit in Gen I". As for the second Gen, Nanna (or Jeanne) play a vital role in keeping Leif and Finn alive, while also being the best user of the Return staff. The Brave Sword, or Miracle Sword, can help in the Arena, while Charisma is an awesome boon from Nanna in particular. And before I forget - Super-Canto! This is, simply put, a must-use class.

Those are my thoughts; I welcome any feedback!

Edited October 28, 2023 by Shanty Pete's 1st Mate
Typos.

[Whisky]

I thought of another thing to add to terrain penalties. Shadow Mir said that ‘Cavalry are slowed to a crawl’ by terrain. But infantry units are slowed by terrain too. Just not as much. In the GBA games, a Cavalier with 7 Move loses 3 Move per Forest space, allowing them to move through 2 spaces of Forest with 1 Move leftover. Un-promoted infantry units only lose 2 Move per Forest space, allowing them to move 2 spaces through Forest with 1 Move leftover, since they only have 5 Move. They actually move through Forests at the same speed. This changes when infantry units promote and go up to 6 Move. They can now move through 3 spaces of Forest, whereas a Paladin can still only move through 2 spaces with 2 Move leftover.

But Swordmaster in 3H only has 5 Move! They’re actually slower through terrain than a Paladin and equally slow as a Dark/Holy Knight (if Dark/Holy Knight’s don’t dismount, if they do then they’re faster). I don’t think there’s terrain that slows down cavalry but doesn’t slow down infantry right? They always get slowed too I think, just by less. This also highlights how much better Assassin can be over Swordmaster. If you’re worried about getting slowed down, you shouldn’t be using a Swordmaster.

Seriously, having 5 Move in 3H is really bad. The difference in mobility between a Swordmaster and Paladin in 3H is actually bigger than the difference between a General and a Paladin in the GBA games, because mounted units didn’t have combat Cantó in those.

Edited October 28, 2023 by Whisky

[Shadow Mir]

8 hours ago, Whisky said:

You think Sword is a better weapon type than magic? If Swordmasters use a Bow for ranged attacks then you’re not getting the Faire. Holy Knights can attack at 2-3 range and then move after with Cantó. High Move and combat Cantó is so good in 3H. Bow Knight would be a better comparison to Holy Knight than the pathetic Swordmaster class. I don’t really get why you’re disagreeing with Swordmaster being a bad class. Even Holy Knight can use Bows better than a Swordmaster with the higher Move and Cantó.

Swords are not better than black magic, but I was not trying to say they were. The offensive white magic, on the other hand? An absolute fucking joke. Except for Seraphim. Nosferatu has a laughable 1 might and 8 weight, and Aura and Abraxas are mega-heavy with only 3 and 2 uses respectively. Don't get me wrong, I don't think Swordmaster is a good class, but worse than a class that has the worst Faire ability, and only high movement going for it? Are. You. Fucking. Kidding Me?

8 hours ago, Whisky said:

Fist Faire is better than Sword Faire. I’ve checked some damage thresholds before for comparisons with Catherine, because she can’t be a Grappler or WarMaster, and in a lot of scenarios she does better as a War Cleric with Bombard than as a Swordmaster. And War Cleric has 6 Move instead of 5. Swordmasters are very slow and limited. I definitely think War Cleric is a better class for Catherine, disregarding the investment issue, and that she starts as a Swordmaster for free, but still, I’d rather work towards something better than Swordmaster eventually.

Fistfaire is better, but you know what ain't?  Being in a class that is mediocre at both offense and support, which War Cleric is in spades.

8 hours ago, Whisky said:

It’s really not unreasonable for a character to certify for it by level 30 though. It’s just a matter of whether you want to invest that much or would rather invest into other units instead. But I’d rather invest in this than be stuck as a 5 Move Swordmaster, if those were my only options. And it’s less investment than Great Knight, that’s a high investment class that isn’t worth it. It seems like you’re exaggerating with Holy Knight’s costs.

Bruh

For how much I have to invest to get a Holy Knight, I would expect them to not set the bar So. Fucking. Low. This is a goddamn Master tier class we are talking about. War Master, Gremory, Wyvern Lord, Falcon Knight, Bow Knight... those master classes actually manage to justify the investment. Hell, I can't help but actively wonder if they made Holy Knight terrible on purpose. Getting one into Holy Knight is like grinding for aeons to get a new weapon... only for it to have the power of a rubber chicken. That's the kind of shit I have no tolerance for. That said, while Great Knight has its own issues, namely needing both armor and riding... it at least doesn't force me to invest in another area like Holy Knight does. 

8 hours ago, Whisky said:

I don’t agree with bashing Dark Knight for that reason. Its a good class, one of the best magic classes in general and it’s easily the best magic class for any offensive based male magic user like Hubert or Hanneman, and even some female magic users like Annette.

That makes one of us. It's not good enough for me to warrant the trouble; Lances are *useless* if I'm focusing my unit entirely on magic.

8 hours ago, Whisky said:

Also in regards to terrain penalties; Dark Knight and Holy Knight still have 6 Move even if you dismount. That’s still more Move than a lot of infantry classes like Swordmaster with 5 or Warlock with 4. Seriously, high Move and Cantó is so incredibly good in 3H. Even when terrain is an issue you can Mount or dismount and move on the same turn.

Even then, I refuse to settle for anything that's not the best of the best when it comes to mounted classes.

Edited October 28, 2023 by Shadow Mir

[Dark Holy Elf]

Unshockingly I basically agree with Whisky about everything here, but I still want to pile on about the key points:

8 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

What about Crimson Flower's last two maps? And the Valley of Torment? And Gronder Redux? The Sealed Forest? The forest map used in Marianne's paralogue (as well as Petra and Bernadetta's)?

That's a lot of maps where Holy Knight can dismount to 6 move and still have more than swordmaster.

8 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

Also, Swordmaster has better speed than Holy Knight (4 vs negative 1),

It's just dishonest to use Holy Knight's mounted speed modifier when even dismounted they are more mobile than swordmaster in all situations, so the gap is just 3. Like yeah maybe there will be one enemy type which swordmaster will double with a bow that Holy Knight will miss, but it likely won't be one they can kill since bow damage with a middling str mod and no Bowfaire just isn't very strong. Meanwhile there's at least one enemy type we know holy knights will kill at range which swordmasters don't: armour knights. They're clearly superior ranged combatants as such.

 

8 hours ago, Shadow Mir said:

You want a class that has literally nothing going for it?! War Monk/Cleric is a thing.

You really want to compare the class that is only useful because Catherine starts in it (but she should eventually get out of) to one of the classes she is recommended to go to? War Cleric has +1 move (and ignores certain terrain penalties), spell access, and Fistfaire on Swordmaster. Oh and Brawl Avoid +20 is way, way better than Astra as far as mastery skills go. Every fist-based character should strongly consider at least making a stop in the class, if DLC is an option.

With that out of the way, rankings!

Spoiler

I assume we're going to do Mage Knights / Dark Knights at a later date? Anyway, here we go:

1. Three Houses Valkyrie: I'm not sure if it belongs here or with Mage Knights / Dark Knights, despite its name. Anyway it's extremely good. Range+1, 6 move, +4 magic mod, and canter is just an incredible package for advanced tier. Uncanny Blow is great too. It also reduces the training for Dark Knight (due to all the free riding exp you get). A strong consideration for any female magic unit. Even better for Lysithea and Hapi since it's the only class in the tier which has any effect on the effectiveness of dark magic.

2. Fates: Really good for Jakob/Felicia, since they get Inspiration at Level 15 and that skill rules. (Other characters have to wait an extra 20 levels effectively.) That said it's a nice class for anyone with staves and a magic stat, mobile and solid offence.

3. Genealogy: Horse with staves very good. They don't get all staves but they get enough. Nanna can even have pretty good combat (and always has Charm). I might be underrating them a bit even?

4. Binding Blade/Blazing Blade: They're pretty similar in these games, their class having a big leg-up on the unmounted variant. They get boosted exp as well. Particular shout-out for Clarine just being weirdly one of the best walls in the game.

5. Path of Radiance: Mist will only have offence if you favour her with Arms Scrolls (though it actually gets pretty good then), but it's fine. Get her to 10 and promote her, she's the only staff user until Elincia who doesn't have garbage move and being hit with status staves is about the only thing that can slow down the incredible mounted PoR army, so I appreciate Mist being able to reach people to use Restore.

6. Three Houses Holy Knight: It's been said. I think the class has very little use, at best an off-brand choice for Marianne/Bernie/Ingrid (but all would prefer other options) because Dark Knight overshadows it so badly. But if you're forced to use it, it'll be fine, because mounted mage is still very good it turns out.

7. Sacred Stones: Compared to the other GBA games they lost 1 move. Valkyrie's a decent choice for Natasha, but going Bishop for slayer is valid too. L'Arachel sadly starts rather weak; not so weak she can't get rolling but I'm not sure +1 move is worth it.

8. Radiant Dawn: Mist took a hit in this game because (a) there's more competition for staff users, with Calill / Bastian gaining staves, Micaiah / Laura / Pelleas being added to the roster, and Elincia being buffed and gaining availability, and (b) it's no longer possible to early-promote her; she needs to wait for her own late special snowflake promotion item or reach 21 naturally. Oh and she lost what little offensive potential she had. Still not terrible, she does outmove Rhys for instance, but not great.

Abstain on Awakening; it seems decent enough on paper but I've not used it much, just easier to use falconknights for staves and dark mages for magical offence.

 

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

16 minutes ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

Get her to 10 and promote her, she's the only staff user until Elincia who doesn't have garbage move

And Tormod gets forgetten again...

17 minutes ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

3. Genealogy: Horse with staves very good. They don't get all staves but they get enough. Nanna can even have pretty good combat (and always has Charm). I might be underrating them a bit even?

Re: Staves, they only get Heal, Mend, and Return, which is a knock against them relative to... any other Staff users. Nanna can actually get B-rank Staves (Physic, Recover, all status staves) with Claud as her daddy, so that's fun. But as you said, those three are enough. Mend usually heals to full, even with a lacking Magic stat, and having Return on a mobile unit is super-useful for a "Return-Warp Volley" strategy. I think their biggest credit, though, is simply the fact that Ethlyn exists before Edain.

26 minutes ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

Meanwhile there's at least one enemy type we know holy knights will kill at range which swordmasters don't: armour knights. They're clearly superior ranged combatants as such.

Eh... Swordmasters with an at-least tolerable Magic stat should be one-rounding Armor Knights with the Levin Sword. And in its forged form, it goes up to 3-range, making it a wash with a 6-move dismounted Holy Knight. Hell, running units like Dorothea, Manuela, or Lysithea as Swordmasters could be fun this way. Although they'd do the same job better in Assassin.

Come to think of it: "Swordmaster is to Assassin, as Holy Knight is to Dark Knight" feels kind of apt. In either case, the former has certain niches in which you might prefer them - but the latter is largely better. Although, I would say the second pair is broadly superior to the first, even though they're hard to compare, since they're performing very different functions for you.

[Dark Holy Elf]

23 minutes ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

And Tormod gets forgetten again...

*Dark Holy Elf gets an Ace Attorney-style damage animation*

Good point! Though Tormod is even more underlevelled than Mist, doesn't have canter, and requires some grinding to reach C staves.

 

26 minutes ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

Eh... Swordmasters with an at-least tolerable Magic stat should be one-rounding Armor Knights with the Levin Sword. And in its forged form, it goes up to 3-range, making it a wash with a 6-move dismounted Holy Knight. Hell, running units like Dorothea, Manuela, or Lysithea as Swordmasters could be fun this way. Although they'd do the same job better in Assassin.

I was admittedly thinking only of "traditional physical swordmaster candidates" (like Felix, Catherine, etc.) with no Fiendish Blow or Warlock certification, for whom Levin Sword isn't strong enough to one-round, typically. Though in my defence, given his hatred of all things that might be interpreted as a build which is both physical and magical in any way, I'd bet that's who Mir was thinking of too.

And yeah I enjoyed using swordmaster Lysithea on an early run (unironically liked it more than any physical swordmaster I've ever tried, solid 3 range really eases the downside of 5 move) before I figured out you might as well just use assassin instead.

[Wuzzy]

21 hours ago, SnowFire said:

Shadow Mir's feelings on Dark/Holy Knight are well-known, yes.

only thing missing is a random derailment about Malig Knight or Niles 

Anyways... back to the topic at hand

S-Rank

n/a

A-Rank

FE4 - Ethlyn is by far the one of the best units in Gen 1 (even if she has 2 less chapters but even then, the units with good/perfect availability aren't that noteworthy aside from Lachesis/Sylvia/maybe Lex) while Nanna/Jeanne are pretty solid in Gen 2. Troubadours all have access to a horse (which benefits the movement bonus from roads), super canto, and staves. Access to the Return Staff is very good with all the backtracking needed in FE4 while Mend is very good for healing even with low magic, especially when healing items don't exist. One thing I haven't seen regarding Ethlyn and Nanna (Jeanne is moreso exclusively mounted utility) is that they have good combat and most people usually see them as more utility-focused. Ethlyn has both the sibling bonus and the marriage bonus immediately with 2 of the best gen 1 units in the game which gives her +40 crit if she's near both of them, this combined with her A-rank Sword rank + natural avoid makes a very formidable combat unit, and it gets even better with her promotion bonuses giving her +6 Str / +3 Spd / +6 Def. Nanna has all the benefits that Ethlyn has but, Nanna also has a very high Str growth and a servicable Spd/Def growth in addition to potential inherited skills depending on her dad. 

FE16 - Valkyrie is very solid class overall but, it is slightly tricky to obtain because there isn't an Intermediate class that will provide Riding and Reason XP during combat. Valkyrie is honestly pretty serviceable as an endgame class due to the higher move, Canto, bonus range on Reason and Certain Blow if you ever get that far (unlikely but it is a pretty good skill since more hit is always nice especially as enemies get pretty dodgy in the late game) gives it something over Gremory and it's a lot easier to reach Valkyrie compared to Dark Knight or god forbid Holy Knight. I guess Holy Knight should be mentioned since I mentioned Royal Knight and well, this class is pretty much not worth it because of how difficult it is to get and it's class skills are pretty sad but, it's still not the worst thing in the world as you still get a horse, Canto and spell access (I feel like it's in the realm of usable if you are doing like a SOYO or PMU but on a normal playthrough it's outclassed).

 

B-Rank

FE6 - Staves are very good in this game, especially the Warp/Rescue as they are both obtainable in the mid-game and come with a free 5 range minimum which is nice for Clarine who has very low Magic and Cecilia who has mediocre Magic. With FE6 being a seize-only game, having these movement staves are a huge benefit for moving around Roy and the very big presence of enemy status staves make having more than 1 Restore user a necessity. Both Clarine and Cecilia also have the benefits of a mount for extra move/canto/ability to rescue a good amount of the cast which makes them solid filler units, Cecilia has the additional benefit of A-rank Tomes allowing her to provide decent chip damage especially against Wyverns with Aircalibur. 

FE14 - Strategist is a very solid class but, I think Troubadour is the class that suffers a bit which drags the ranking down slightly. Personally, I don't think an early healer is necessary in Conquest so that already lowers my opinion on Elise to begin with (if you need healing, Felicia/Jakob are honestly better and Elise's performance is harmed by her performance in Revelations). Enemies really aren't that threatening early on (Lunatic/Hard Conquest enemies have the same stats, only thing that changes is enemy quantity and skills) so I find using a Vulnerary usually just works out more often than not. Though in Elise's defense, she is practically a free deploy for a good chunk of Conquest early game so she has that going for her. Now onto Strategist, it's generally a very good class between being mounted + access to good skills like Inspiration which can be obtained early by Felicia/Jakob and tomes being pretty solid. Felicia also has a really underrated early-game carry build being the Vantage/LnD Strategist (which uses the same resources that make people believe Paladin Jakob is busted in Conquest and it's practically free in BR/Rev) that scales very well into the late game.

FE7 - Priscilla is a very good unit overall, between solid bases/growths, C-Staves at base early on, and all the perks of the Troubadour class mentioned in the FE6 breakdown. While statwise it has a better showing than FE6, the Rescue/Warp staves are available much later in this game and they also got pretty harshly nerfed with the removal of 5 minimum range and the need to cleanse status staves isn't really necessary aside from HHM's version of Cogs of Destiny and Chapter 29/31 so they are really just there for healing/rescue-dropping for the most part which is still nice to have.

FE5 - Nanna kind of fell from grace considering her performance in FE4. Anyways, while Staves are top tier in FE5, not all staff users were made equally as Nanna is one of the worst staff users in the game. Between her low Staff-rank of E (she also competes with Safy for early Staff XP) and the fact she doesn't gain any Staff rank upon promotion compared to Safy/Tini/Salem makes her a lot worse in comparison as it'll take her a long time to grind up her Staff-rank to use any relevant staves. Nanna also has below averages bases, mediocre growths (which can be remedied with Scrolls but, this applies to the entire cast), and female Paladin promo bonuses getting shafted in FE5. Wrath Nanna is pretty fun due to the synergy with her Earth Sword but, it's not the most reliable thing in the world since enemies can just attack her with 1-range and she'll attack with her much lower Str stat instead. Nanna is saved by a few factors being her early game combat (especially in indoor chapters like 8x), her support bonuses, and Charm. Amalda on the other hand is pretty good late game filler with her solid magic and high sword rank letting her use magic swords effectively, however joining with C-staves is unfortunate for her join time but she can still use status staves, Ensorcel and maybe Rescue during the endgame with grinding.

 

C-Rank

FE13 - Valkyries aren't necessarily bad, I think the issue here is that being mounted isn't that big of a boon in Awakening so I find Sage generally a better option for their higher Magic. Valkyrie still has some perks with the extra Mov allowing it to use the Rescue Staff further away (in addition to all the perks of having more Mov in general) but, I don't think the advantages are that much of a dealbreaker. In regards to units with access to the line, it's really up to the player's preference on reclassing to Valkyrie (Lissa could go Sage/Dark Flier for GF, Cherche should just stay in her classline, Noire/Nah could go Sage/Sorcerer/Dark Flier for GF depending on their father) and Maribelle has an issue where she's sandwiched between an early healer who you've most likely been using a ton and probably outclasses her and 2 amazing prepromoted staff users that join not too far off with 2 desert maps in her way so she ends up being kind of underwhelming.

FE9 - Mist is just fine overall. Mist starts out very weak at Level 1 during Chapter 9 as a stafflocked unit which is bad when Rhys has already been seeing quite a bit of usage prior but, she has the benefit of promoting into a horseback class in a game very kind to mounted units due to how open and spacious maps are + Canto. While being mounted is good, Rescue-dropping is better off done by any of the Cavaliers/Fliers due to their natural bulk + good combat (especially with Savior albeit Savior comes late) and when it comes to staff utility, Mist has competition for the Rescue staff by Soren/Rhys/Ilyana due to their higher magic and the range can be further increased by being dropped with some foresight involved. Sonic Sword Mist is unnecessary because Ike doesn't even have to beat the BK but, Arms Scrolls are practically not really needed so Mist can monopolize them if she wants (money is plentiful so selling doesn't do anything and Hand Axes are E-Rank instead of D-Rank so the promoted Paladins/Jill don't need it unless they want extra damage).

FE8 - Valkyrie itself is pretty solid overall but, the ranking is dragged down by L'arachel. Regarding Natasha, while I think Slayer is a nice skill to have I personally don't think it is necessary to beat the game so having the extra utility from Valkyrie (rescuing + extra move) is pretty nice to have and should be considered when choosing a preferable promotion. L'arachel unfortunately needs no introduction, she joins far too late as an underleveled staff bot in a game that nerfed her classline's movement.

 

D-Rank

FE10 - Mist isn't bad for most people (I personally think she's quite bad/overrated) but, there's quite a lot going against her (and it's not the horseback-penalty, I've mentioned in the Cavalier ranking that I find the horse penalty only an issue for Fiona and no one else). Mist starts off weak, she has low base Magic, stuck with a weapon-type she cannot use well, and her personal weapon scales off Str. Once she hits Valkyrie, there really isn't anything different other than her higher move and she can rescue which isn't that drastic considering like, who is she rescuing considering the good infantries are going to be on the frontlines and she's too frail + offensively weak to rescue-drop someone without being in danger. The biggest issue I have with Mist is that she exists in not only a game where having a healer is unnecessary due to healing items being crazy good but, she also exists on a route full of juggernauts (Ike, Titania, Haar, Gatrie, Oscar, fed Boyd/Nephenee/Kieran/Brom, etc.) that will take very little damage to begin with. The GMs are already strapped for deployment slots due to the amount of solid units on the route and if you really wanted to deploy a healer for the GMs, there's no reason not to deploy Rhys over her when he has better chip damage with Light magic and stronger heals + more Physic range with his higher magic (this statement accounts for Mist's +1 Move as a Cleric fyi).

FE17 - I will be counting Royal Knight as Engage's equivalent to Valkyrie and unfortunately... Royal Knight is pretty sad. The class is unfortunately pretty much outdone by Griffon Knights as the combination of flight + utility + weapon flexibility is just way too good to pass up. Royal Knights also don't have many (if any at all) notable advantages as the Cavalry class-line doesn't get many stand out perks from the Emblem Rings (only one I guess is kind of notable is it has a better Goddess Dance / Instruct but even then it's still pretty meh, Reforge sounds good on paper but I find it better as an enemy skill than a player skill). 

Edited October 29, 2023 by Wuzzy

[Dark Holy Elf]

4 hours ago, Wuzzy said:

Reforge sounds good on paper but I find it better as an enemy skill than a player skill

I forgot Royal Knight entirely in my ratings which isn't a good sign. Agreed that it's toward the bottom for reasons you said.

Having just watched a map in which the player used enemy!Mauvier's Reforge to do free damage to him while killing his allies, I'm not certain I agree that Reforge is useful for enemies either. The most notable thing about the Break status is that it allows the attack which inflicts it to not be countered, which Reforge does nothing to stop. Healing the effect for subsequent attacks feels very very niche. I guess I'm saying that I think Reforge is a pretty useless skill.

Cavalry is also indeed a pretty weak typing (outside the +1 move of course). I'd say the most notable things about it is that it allows for 100% bonded shield against other cavalry, as well as bonus damage with Twin Strike which can be the difference between killing a fell wyrm and not. There are probably some others.

[Shadow Mir]

17 hours ago, Whisky said:

I thought of another thing to add to terrain penalties. Shadow Mir said that ‘Cavalry are slowed to a crawl’ by terrain. But infantry units are slowed by terrain too. Just not as much. In the GBA games, a Cavalier with 7 Move loses 3 Move per Forest space, allowing them to move through 2 spaces of Forest with 1 Move leftover. Un-promoted infantry units only lose 2 Move per Forest space, allowing them to move 2 spaces through Forest with 1 Move leftover, since they only have 5 Move. They actually move through Forests at the same speed. This changes when infantry units promote and go up to 6 Move. They can now move through 3 spaces of Forest, whereas a Paladin can still only move through 2 spaces with 2 Move leftover.

But Swordmaster in 3H only has 5 Move! They’re actually slower through terrain than a Paladin and equally slow as a Dark/Holy Knight (if Dark/Holy Knight’s don’t dismount, if they do then they’re faster). I don’t think there’s terrain that slows down cavalry but doesn’t slow down infantry right? They always get slowed too I think, just by less. This also highlights how much better Assassin can be over Swordmaster. If you’re worried about getting slowed down, you shouldn’t be using a Swordmaster.

Seriously, having 5 Move in 3H is really bad. The difference in mobility between a Swordmaster and Paladin in 3H is actually bigger than the difference between a General and a Paladin in the GBA games, because mounted units didn’t have combat Cantó in those.

Many of those other games didn't have terrain that slows down cavalry units and ONLY cavalry units. The only one I can think of was Path of Radiance... but unlike in 3H, it was only in one map. Of course, I don't hold it against them because PoR was one of, if not the best game for cavalry. It's much harder to like cavalry units when their mobility advantage doesn't even materialize in practice a good chunk of the time... especially when they aren't even that much better than my foot units, if they are at all. Also, you're forgetting another piece of the puzzle here; 3H has combat arts for moving other units around. In the GBA games, you had to rescue units to transport them... but Generals tended to be too heavy to move around in such a fashion. Almost all of the armors in the GBA games ended up with at least 15 constitution after promotion, which almost no mounted unit can pick up when they started promoting as well (special mention to Barth the Unrescuable and his 18 constitution!).

4 hours ago, Wuzzy said:

only thing missing is a random derailment about Malig Knight or Niles 

Sorry to disappoint, but you ain't getting that here. Look in the appropriate ranking threads for those.

[Dark Holy Elf]

25 minutes ago, Shadow Mir said:

Many of those other games didn't have terrain that slows down cavalry units and ONLY cavalry units.

This would be a relevant thing to bring up if dismount did not exist. It does exist, so your point is invalid. There is literally no terrain in 3H that will result in a Swordmaster being able to move more squares than a Holy Knight. I can't even think of any situations where they can even move the same number of squares, though it's possible one might exist.

28 minutes ago, Shadow Mir said:

Also, you're forgetting another piece of the puzzle here; 3H has combat arts for moving other units around.

These actions are certainly useful, no question. They add 1 or 2 points to a unit's effective mobility for a turn. So, basically, if you use Smite/Reposition on a Swordmaster, they can match a Holy Knight for mobility for one turn (roughly, at least. The repositioned swordmaster can handle terrain better, but doesn't have canter). Of course, the mounted unit still has two big (albeit non-overlapping) advantages: (a) they do not need such a support action for that turn, freeing up their ally to target someone else or use another action entirely, or (b) you can still target the mounted unit with reposition/smite too if you want, giving them even more effective mobility (and this mobility can be used to both advance or retreat after an attack, as desired).

I'm really not sure why you're so set on dying on this hill of "infantry are better than cavalry, actually". More move is always going to result in a better class unless the less mobile class has some convincing advantages to make up for that. Some infantry classes have such convincing advantages, such as Sniper or Gremory. I don't think it's particularly contraversial to say Swordmaster does not.

[Shanty Pete's 1st Mate]

49 minutes ago, Shadow Mir said:

Also, you're forgetting another piece of the puzzle here; 3H has combat arts for moving other units around.

Repositionals are another tool that make mounted units better. When Fortress Knight Raphael uses Smite, he has to end his turn on the same space that he used it. But when Great Knight Raphael uses Smite, he can Canto his remaining movement to wherever he wants to end up. Hell, mounted classes with Draw Back or Swap can use the art to effectively move one space further. And it should go without saying that fliers are the best Reposition users - they can get grounded allies across untraversible terrain.

55 minutes ago, Shadow Mir said:

Almost all of the armors in the GBA games ended up with at least 15 constitution after promotion, which almost no mounted unit can pick up when they started promoting as well (special mention to Barth the Unrescuable and his 18 constitution!).

Pretty much everyone agrees that GBA Armors were bad, with the exceptions of Oswin and Duessel (if you're counting him). The fact that they're the least mobile class type, while also being the hardest to Rescue-carry, playing into that. In that light, a 3H Valkyrie, who can "Draw Back" my Fortress Knight, is doing more for me than a GBA Valkyrie who can't pick up my General.

59 minutes ago, Shadow Mir said:

Many of those other games didn't have terrain that slows down cavalry units and ONLY cavalry units. The only one I can think of was Path of Radiance... but unlike in 3H, it was only in one map.

I'm genuinely drawing a blank. What terrain was that?

[Cysx]

Rankings will come in time, for now we must fight

On 10/28/2023 at 3:00 PM, Eltosian Kadath said:

Comparing the two, going from Sage to Valkyrie nets -1 HP, -1Str, -2Mag, -1 SKL, +1 SPD, -1 DEf, +3 RES, +2 MOV, and identical growth rates, so it is giving you an extra 2 move, and higher speed, both of which are nice benefits to have. It also has staff access before promotion, which is something the mage class can't provide, and comparing Cleric to Troubadour is a very clear Troubadour win (+1 SPD, -1 RES, +2 MOV and for growth rates -5% STR, +5% MAG, -5% SKL, +5% SPD), baring the fact that Lissa is simply a better unit than Maribelle, so getting the most out of Troubadour cost resources (like reclassing Lissa). Sage is probably better overall, but Trobadour has its place before promotion, and I could definitely find times where I would appreciate the higher move (and possibly even speed) more than the magic, especially with how Dark Magic access massively overshadows anything either could do in the combat department.

 

Is that where that Rescue staff I always have for that chapter come from. I always remember having one, and couldn't remember exactly where I got it, and figured it was the merchants that always provide a few refills as long as I payed attention to them (as I distinctly remember those).

I'd say Cleric beats Troubadour though, because healtouch is actually genuinely useful early on. Without it, you constantly have to heal people twice.
Also, Sages don't exclusively come from Mage, they're also a promotion option for Cleric, and as it stands, all three of the best staff users in Awakening have direct access to it, while Lissa needs to be reclassed to be a Valkyrie and Anna and Libra cannot be one at all.

Mostly the big thing about Valkyrie is that Falcon Knight is usually a better alternative if you want a mobile staffer, both for Maribelle and Lissa. Really there's not much room for the class to shine overall. At least its pairup stats are decent.

Also, add me to the list of people who never got a rescue staff from merchants before ch 5 in at least a couple playthroughs. And yes you get a rescue staff in paralogue 1, in fact that's one of the main reasons not to postpone it(it's certainly not Donnel) since it greatly simplifies the retrieval of Maribelle and Ricken.

Edited October 29, 2023 by Cysx

[Jotari]

4 hours ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

I'm really not sure why you're so set on dying on this hill of "infantry are better than cavalry, actually". More move is always going to result in a better class unless the less mobile class has some convincing advantages to make up for that. Some infantry classes have such convincing advantages, such as Sniper or Gremory. I don't think it's particularly contraversial to say Swordmaster does not.

It's a very strange stance to take. Mir makes it seem like the entirety of Three Houses is Celica's half of Gaiden/Shadows of Valentia, when its not even Radiant Dawn levels of bad.

[Whisky]

5 hours ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

I'm really not sure why you're so set on dying on this hill of "infantry are better than cavalry, actually". More move is always going to result in a better class unless the less mobile class has some convincing advantages to make up for that. Some infantry classes have such convincing advantages, such as Sniper or Gremory. I don't think it's particularly contraversial to say Swordmaster does not.

Yeah exactly. I think Holy Knight is one of the worse mounted classes, but being mounted is still a big advantage. More Move is always a good thing, and combat Cantó is always a good thing. Canter seems to be considered one of the best skills to inherit in Engage for a reason. For an infantry unit with less Move and no Cantó to be as good, it really needs to have something else to make up for the lack of mobility. Like you said, there are some infantry classes that do offer something to make up for the lack of mobility, but I don’t think Swordmaster does. And I only brought Swordmaster because it’s my go to example of a bad class in 3H, but there’s several other infantry classes that are also pretty terrible. Holy Knight isn’t as good as most other mounted classes, but high Move and Cantó is still a nice benefit that gives it an advantage over infantry units.

[Shadow Mir]

6 hours ago, Shanty Pete's 1st Mate said:

I'm genuinely drawing a blank. What terrain was that?

Chapter 25 in Path of Radiance. It has mountain paths that slow down armored units and cavalry (funny thing is, it took looking it up on the forum to realize armored units got slowed down too). There is also the shore in chapter 9, but I'd send Titania and Oscar there anyway, because my initial approach for that map is to secure the beach and villages with all my manpower.

7 hours ago, Dark Holy Elf said:

I'm really not sure why you're so set on dying on this hill of "infantry are better than cavalry, actually". More move is always going to result in a better class unless the less mobile class has some convincing advantages to make up for that. Some infantry classes have such convincing advantages, such as Sniper or Gremory. I don't think it's particularly contraversial to say Swordmaster does not.

Because the only cavalry units I worked with that didn't stink were bow knights. I worked with Sylvain in Azure Moon. I made him a Cavalier, then a Paladin. He fell off really fucking HARD after the timeskip, and he didn't impress me before the timeskip either. His failure to impress, aside from earning him a grudge being held against him, is gonna give me a lot of pause about working with Ferdinand when I go back to 3H... anyway, high movement is nice, but you damn well better have something going for you besides that. It alone doesn’t make a class good. Case in point: Holy Knight. 

Anyways...

A tier in Fates. Elise is a first-rate support unit even in Revelation, where most Nohrian units got gimped, and Felicia has early Inspiration for inheritance and debuffs as well.

B tier in Blazing and Binding Blade. Priscilla and Clarine are great healer units, though they suffer from the slow rate of experience gain for healers.

C tier in Sacred Stones. Much as I love L'arachel, coming past the halfway point of the game at level 3 is not a good look, and the slow exp gain for healers doesn't help either. It doesn't help that Troubadour lost 1 move for whatever reason, which also applies to her promotion options. Natasha also has Valkyrie as an option, but it's competing with Bishop, which gets extra damage vs monsters and as stated earlier, only has 1 less movement.

C tier in Path of Radiance. Mist is the only mobile healer for most of the game (read as: before Elincia joins), but it takes some work to get there.

C tier in Radiant Dawn. Mist is a lot more usable, on the one hand... but on the other hand, healing items are more effective and have more uses.

B tier in Awakening. 

F tier in Three Houses. Why the bloody fuck does Holy Knight exist? What the fuck were the developers thinking with it? It's completely unworthy of the master class pedigree. Shitty stats, shitty class skills, shitty mastery skill... every other fucking magic class in the level 20 and 30 tiers does what it can do better as the icing on the shit cake. It needing high investment to get into on top of all this is the death knell for any chance it had of being good. I will abstain from talking about Valkyrie as I haven't had the chance to use it.

Edited October 30, 2023 by Shadow Mir

[Jotari]

42 minutes ago, Shadow Mir said:

Chapter 25 in Path of Radiance. It has mountain paths that slow down armored units and cavalry (funny thing is, it took looking it up on the forum to realize armored units got slowed down too). There is also the shore in chapter 9, but I'd send Titania and Oscar there anyway, because my initial approach for that map is to secure the beach and villages with all my manpower.

The way you phrased it suggested Three Houses has anti cavalry terrain.

42 minutes ago, Shadow Mir said:

 

F tier in Three Houses. Why the bloody fuck does Holy Knight exist? What the fuck were the developers thinking with it? It's completely unworthy of the master class pedigree. Shitty stats, shitty class skills, shitty mastery skill... every other fucking magic class in the level 20 and 30 tiers does what it can do better as the icing on the shit cake. It needing high investment to get into on top of all this is the death knell for any chance it had of being good. I will abstain from talking about Valkyrie as I haven't had the chance to use it.

Wow dude, did a Holy Knight kill your parents or something? Chill, it's just a game.