(Mafia Sucks) SF Mafia: The Revival - GAME OVER, Town Wins! - Post Game is up!

[WeaponsofMassConstruction]

There's also just the possibility of SK Makaze

[Shinori]

Anyway back to normal mafia, no more lost wolf speculation.  It's kind of pointless I feel.

Dusk will have a great time joining in on this whenever they get around.

[WeaponsofMassConstruction]

9 minutes ago, Shinori said:

I can see it being something that we WOULD run on SF, however it is a mechanic that I think would be non-standard and either semi-bastard at a minimum or at LEAST experimental

This game is stated non-bastard and whenever we played on SF before if there were experimental mechanics, we stated it in the opening.

This is true, for this reason I'm currently speculating "lost wolf, but with something to mitigate the bastardness somehow"

[WeaponsofMassConstruction]

After all "Universal Backup" isn't exactly what it says on the tin either

[Snike]

 

19 minutes ago, BBM said:

cam had a pretty forced vote onto weapons late in d1, in hindsight he was almost certainly just jumping on the refa counterwagon, implying they knew they were scumbuddies. most of us haven't played mafia in years and cam had like 5 posts. we misread him, it's not that complicated. we don't need to consider roles like lost wolf.

i know makaze's playstyle is annoying but suggesting we vig him for it is basically throwing the game. makaze can't force anyone else to do anything, he can just refuse to vote the way we want.

##Unvote, ##Vote: @Snike

I was originally going to wait for Snike to respond but I'm actually comfortable with this now after ISOing him again to look at the interactions with Cam. I don't know why you guys think that's townie for Snike because it looks like a classic d1 scum distancing to me. cam never voted snike and he also said his entire read on it was just sheeping Prims, so it wasn't like he was even advancing the case on Snike in any way or convincing other people. meanwhile going the other way, even though snike says that he dislikes cam's characterization of his actions and calls it a cynical framing, he basically just asks him to make content and then says it's good as soon as he does.

Also, when Snike posted the PBP analysis he'd done overnight, I was originally like "wow so much effort" but if you go and actually read it, it basically just ends in a lot of neutral reads with a slight scumlean on rapier and slight townlean on percy. ultimately it's very much size over substance

1 hour ago, Snike said:

I didn't believe the universal backup claim and the push on Makaze was a huge No from me. Makaze also read Rapier as messy town so I trusted that, combined with ill ease with Refa Wagon + Prims was on it as I was writing the post. I was thinking about going to Rapier but the Makaze read was what tipped it esp as I hadn't reread Rapier at the time.

If not dusk, probably Rapier today but honestly I'm close to just sheeping rn because I've been wrong twice; I didn't think cam would pop in and vote a buddy as my recap indicated.

Bolded: What the fuck?

The cynical bit, I said about the opportunism so that was a shot more at Prims than at Cam, who was self-admittedly sheeping the read. I disagreed that it made sense when voiced out.

Also as a reminder, I was putting Cam over Elieson in terms of wagon targets d1. I did feel better when a vote and explanation came out.

Also also, I literally had beef with Rapier at EoD, as you pointed out. That's not a neutral read.

Finally, again, I will repeat I was not anticipating Cam to come in close to the deadline and blindvote a partner.

Since we're talking tunnels, Hello everyone else, what would you call this?

Like is anyone actually reading what I put out? I'm starting to wonder.

 

[Bluedoom]

37 minutes ago, Makaze said:

Breaking the silence to consider this argument. There is a possiblity that you are just weird and detached from all of your reads, but the way you handled your Refa case is baffling as either alignment:

  Hide contents

 

What I've seen here is *a lot* of talking to your top scumread, Refa, and considering his questions, with the tone that he is town. You say flart out that you can't/don't have questions for Refa. When you go after Sunwoo, it's far more aggressive and accusatory to their face. Compare that to your treatment of Refa there is a major disconnect. You don't question Refa. You unvote rather than vote for Refa when Rapier is the top wagon. Your final vote, at the tail end of a wagon that you let others champion, is "I'm sorry if I'm wrong".

Here's the scenario I read: It was distancing, not bussing. You went after him early for bad reasons, expecting to be able to back off. You did back off. You got forced to commit in the end.

posting before this gets eaten

tldr on an ISO I can see how i could be wrong but there is no way im basing it on plausibility

I don't think the scenario of me talking to refa is comparable to me talking to sunwoo/snike since sunwoo/snike were casing me so I'm talking from a defensive stance vs refa were I'm the one forming the case, so to speak. (even with sunwoo I try to tone down the accusatory tone initially as you'll see with snike talking about how I have too many questions). The other thing is if you read my case on charlie somewhere on pages 18-20, I have a very similar tone that you're thinking of, because I'm trying to discern if my suspect's thought process could come from a town alignment. I think bringing an accusatory tone wouldn't be conducive to getting opinions from suspects in the event that you are wrong, because then they double down and retreat into their shell and become even more stubborn in communicating with you.

The next time I vote Refa is page 21, after talking with SB, and then the explanation(which is really just a repeat of my case on SB because both of them did a similar thing) is here: https://forums.serenesforest.net/topic/103960-sf-mafia-the-revival-night-1-n1-ends-600-pm-edt-29-may-2024/?do=findComment&comment=6108958








 

 

[BBM]

look i'm just trying to end up with a positive kd ratio between town and scum and you guys are trying to ruin it. if there's a SK we can get to them after killing all the scum. the largest possibility is still that makaze is town which both of you even admitted. a wrong but alive townie is still better than a dead townie. not to mention that we have a poe of 5 or so people and you guys want to use one of our available kills outside of it. if we just focus on the people we actually think are scummy we avoid the possibility of being in *ylo in the first place. not to mention we have the elierad slot that hasn't produced any content that's clearly the main vig target first.

sorry Snike, I missed that post.

so like... okay you didn't believe weapons and you were townreading makaze. i think it's fine to townread makaze, but I don't understand the concept of finding someone scummy for voting/pushing makaze, or finding him so townie (on d1) as to just sheep his reads. for reference this is the same player who boron believes is playing so unhelpfully he should be policy vigged and you haven't said anything about that, and makaze is much more townier now post-refa flip than he was yesterday.

wrt your rapier read being a slight scumlean, I was referring less to your EOD1 read and more your start of D2 PBP read:

"Conclusion: Could be scum trying to throw self under bus to preserve refa, weird regardless? Mid to late Marth Pivot is ?????"

i think if you say someone could be scum but also ???? that implies slight scumlean to me. 

wrt Cam if it was unclear, I know that you said you didn't like his initial vote on you. i'm referring to this, responding to cam's second big post, where you said the post by cam was "good eating". my point is that it didn't really take a lot for you to be ok with cam despite him making a case on you.

lastly, I don't think I'm tunneling; there are like 5 people who could be scum imo (you, sb, boron, elie, shinori). like 7 people have made the SB/duskfall case, and honestly I don't really think anything more regarding SB even matters at this point because duskfall is unable to defend anything SB did or didn't do, so his roleclaim is really all that's relevant. I would have focused more on shinori if not for his roleclaiming. I'm not convinced he isn't just WIFOMing but will drop it for now and let the role stuff play out. i do need to look at boron more admittedly because I townread her very early on in d1 and haven't re-examined her too much since then. that's on my plan to do for tomorrow.

[Bluedoom]

Continuing the post because SF formatting confuses me

But I think you're mistaken if you think I'm forced to case Refa here; I actually have the opportunity to just avoid casing him or talking about him all the way back in page 20/21/22. And especially around pages 32+ where we have shinori taking a crack on Rapier, those are easy opportunities for me to reverse my stances on Rapier(or even weapons or just jump on you) to jump ship and vote them so I don't know where you're getting the idea that I'm being forced to vote Refa here. There's probably enough to even pursue charlie further actually if you think that charlie is town in this scenario and I'm scum searching for a miselim.

Me coming back to vote Refa is a point in my favour anyway since me not voting would increase the result of a lynch in you/weapons/rapier here.

Wouldn't me having scumreads but approaching them with a tone that they might be town be an indicator that I don't have TMI, btw?

I can see why you'd think that this was scum distancing into forced to vote though. My impression all this while was that you thought I was making a calculated bus.

 

[j00]

roflmao I didn't expect the Cam flip

[j00]

Catching up right now, but I hope to hear reads from the sub slots, especially RAD who took over for an inactive with little content and Dusk who's being wagoned.

[Makaze]

Automated Votecount

Duskfall98 (5): Shinori (53), WeaponsofMassConstruction (29), Sunwoo (9), Snike (18), Bluedoom (25)
Bluedoom (2): RADicate (13), Makaze (35)
Snike (1): BBM (10)
Shinori (1): Rapier (8)
Not voting (4): CT075 (1), Ichigo (5), Percivalé (25), j00 (2)

Spoiler

VOTING HISTORY

Page 48:
#1180: RADicate voted for Bluedoom

Page 49:
#1207: Shinori voted for charlie_

Page 50:
#1228: Shinori voted for Duskfall98
#1229: WeaponsofMassConstruction voted for Duskfall98
#1232: BBM voted for Shinori
#1241: Sunwoo voted for Duskfall98
#1245: Makaze voted for WeaponsofMassConstruction

Page 52:
#1280: Snike voted for Duskfall98
#1298: Bluedoom voted for Duskfall98

Page 54:
#1338: Makaze voted for Bluedoom

Page 56:
#1385: Rapier voted for Shinori
#1396: BBM voted for Snike

[Snike]

1 minute ago, BBM said:

look i'm just trying to end up with a positive kd ratio between town and scum and you guys are trying to ruin it. if there's a SK we can get to them after killing all the scum. the largest possibility is still that makaze is town which both of you even admitted. a wrong but alive townie is still better than a dead townie. not to mention that we have a poe of 5 or so people and you guys want to use one of our available kills outside of it. if we just focus on the people we actually think are scummy we avoid the possibility of being in *ylo in the first place. not to mention we have the elierad slot that hasn't produced any content that's clearly the main vig target first.

sorry Snike, I missed that post.

so like... okay you didn't believe weapons and you were townreading makaze. i think it's fine to townread makaze, but I don't understand the concept of finding someone scummy for voting/pushing makaze, or finding him so townie (on d1) as to just sheep his reads. for reference this is the same player who boron believes is playing so unhelpfully he should be policy vigged and you haven't said anything about that, and makaze is much more townier now post-refa flip than he was yesterday.

wrt your rapier read being a slight scumlean, I was referring less to your EOD1 read and more your start of D2 PBP read:

"Conclusion: Could be scum trying to throw self under bus to preserve refa, weird regardless? Mid to late Marth Pivot is ?????"

i think if you say someone could be scum but also ???? that implies slight scumlean to me. 

wrt Cam if it was unclear, I know that you said you didn't like his initial vote on you. i'm referring to this, responding to cam's second big post, where you said the post by cam was "good eating". my point is that it didn't really take a lot for you to be ok with cam despite him making a case on you.

lastly, I don't think I'm tunneling; there are like 5 people who could be scum imo (you, sb, boron, elie, shinori). like 7 people have made the SB/duskfall case, and honestly I don't really think anything more regarding SB even matters at this point because duskfall is unable to defend anything SB did or didn't do, so his roleclaim is really all that's relevant. I would have focused more on shinori if not for his roleclaiming. I'm not convinced he isn't just WIFOMing but will drop it for now and let the role stuff play out. i do need to look at boron more admittedly because I townread her very early on in d1 and haven't re-examined her too much since then. that's on my plan to do for tomorrow.

Mid to late marth Pivot is weird/scummy like ???? or  in normal terms, "what the fuck?" I don't get the shift  is what I'm  saying.

I can vaguely see what you mean by that but I would riposte with I only have so much energy and I was pushing Marth + reading whole Makaze ISO.  I wrote that post and spent 10 hours on the latter. Cam was a lower priority and I'm sure a lot of other people would agree +Cam didn't make a case outside of Prims + tinfoil?

Like in the post I was responding to Cam said this:

Quote

• Snike comes in with a “list posts are bad” justification. I know I just said that I have no original opinions about this, but I will say that my initial impression of this post was that it was fine comma I guess? Looking back and seeing that this was actually the second vote on the Marth wagon makes me think that it actually doesn’t make as much sense as a “safe” scum park as Prims initially said? Maybe I could see it as an aggressive scum play to start a counterwagon off of Boron (???), but this is a crackpot theory that I will not argue for further.

How is that casing? The biggest thing he said was sheeping the Prims read, again, and I was pressing for more and a vote before that.

I think just to be clear I want to reiterate plans for today before I saw cam flip: It was vote out on wagon. I explained the PoE on wagon already fmpov being  Rapier, Boron, Percivale. And then said I went for Rapier. I'm not sure how that's a slight scumlean when I think wolves are on wagon and I think the slot is the worst. If I come across as wavering, it's because, again twice wrong.

Re: tunnelling You've been on me since d1  for what I'd call bad reasons and have been consistently on my case for ever-evolving and what I'd argue are bad reasons. Your first vote/ read on me was for being 'opportunistic' and used whataboutism; your next comment was 'stuff he chose to cover doesn't impress me', that continues into my focus when Marth case developed, then you admit a misread + "my content is slimmer" (it isn't), then it's opportunism (loaned from Prims), then "tunnelling" (used after j00)/ forced even though I was talking about stuff outside of marth. But then it's fine and better until today, where you think I scumslip and then inaccurately claim I did a "big refa"  post into this shit. Strikes me as tunnelling, for sure.

Like, I was posting stuff outside of Marth D1 as well (see Prims argument; refa defense, weapons sus, etc) but between that slot, j00, and you it feels like I was getting triple-teamed at points. And no one else seems to see it.

I'm going to bed. If Dusk somehow turns it around while I'm asleep feel free to elim me if we end up just waiting for phase end; we should be saving extension for *YLO and I don't know how much help going all 48 will go once everyone checks in + I think my associatives would be gold.

[j00]

Thanks for the votals Makaze.

Mm, we're not in a hurry. I agree with the general PoE today, and I think we should slow down so the subs get a chance to catch up. I have more town reads than anything else right now.
Neither Shinori nor Percy or anyone should claim yet.

[Sunwoo]

I was looking through SB's content to see if anything stuck out at me, and I'm pretty sure they were intent on lynching Rapier until Rapier was no longer a viable D1 lynch option. This doesn't really feel like a bus to me, I'd rather not focus on Rapier for the time being.

They also mentioned their townread on Snike "souring," which could possibly indicate an attempt to push a case on Snike later. Really, Snike's interactions with SB and Cam look favorable. I guess it's only the Refa thing that looks questionable, and in all fairness I wasn't on the Refa wagon either so I don't think I can hold it against him when his interactions with the other scum look all right.

Honestly, I'm just kind of ??? right now because while I feel like SB makes sense as a scum buddy for Refa and Cam, I'm having a hard time figuring out who could be a fourth potential buddy that makes sense with all of them. I'll probably do another reread of stuff at a time when I'm not tired as fuck, but I feel like the only person I'm confident on right now is SB slot.

[Ichigo]

4 hours ago, WeaponsofMassConstruction said:

https://www.mafiauniverse.com/forums/database/mafia-roles/role/?mafiarole=Consigliere

https://mafiagg.fandom.com/wiki/Consigliere?so=search

Like, actually how is it not lost wolf

So their role is Consigliere goon. And I associate 'goon' as being a vanilla member of the anti-town faction (so not a lost wolf). But that does not seem to be what the word is meaning here as they have the Consigliere in front.

Clicking on those links it seems that they could be a lost wolf that investigates as town with the ability to convert to a standard member of their faction with no abilities but joining the team chat.

I would not consider lost wolf as a bastard role at all, not a controversial one. Though I do not have knowledge of how this site does things.

[Shinori]

I think off site it's probably not.

But I think on SF where it's never happened if you signed up for a game and then ended up rolling the lost wolf where you are a scum member without the ability to know or talk to your scum buddies, I could see some people being very pissed off and it killing their fun POTENTIALLY.

This is not for everyone, but we had 'experiemental' games for when we had very un-ordinary mechanics in our games.  And I would kind of consider that more of an experimental thing for our site, because ultimately fun of the game does matter.

[Duskfall98]

Greetings my Serenes forest colleagues I am deeply humbled and honoured to once again be joining you in this iconic reunion of our once great community 

I’m sure you were all disappointed when the game commenced without me, for without Tommy how could a serenes forest invitational truly be complete

[j00]

Tbh I think the lost wolf thing might make scum more fun for several people here. Many of our players typically enjoy being town or itp more than scum, and being a scum not knowing your team mates let's you essentially play with an itp mindset. It's easier to fake town sentiment.

[Duskfall98]

I see I am not only dying but my profile picture is broken what a cross roads of horrible happenings 

I humbly request a shield today so that I may catch up!

[Shinori]

12 minutes ago, j00 said:

Tbh I think the lost wolf thing might make scum more fun for several people here. Many of our players typically enjoy being town or itp more than scum, and being a scum not knowing your team mates let's you essentially play with an itp mindset. It's easier to fake town sentiment.

I think it would be fun too, but I could see some people who may already dislike rolling scum getting that role and it killing their fun.

Like I said I think it's only for some people.  I could also just be overthinking it.

I still don't think this is a lost wolf situation personally, and I don't particularly think we should be acting like it is just because of a role name at the moment.

[Percivalé]

maybe this goes without saying but consigliere was a role on epicmafia (epicmafia being in the flavor of the role pm) and it worked just like that so I think we can assume that's what it was and work off that

sorry my recent content has been empty I'm kinda coasting because it feels like we're just going down the PoE now

[Shinori]

13 minutes ago, Duskfall98 said:

I see I am not only dying but my profile picture is broken what a cross roads of horrible happenings 

I humbly request a shield today so that I may catch up!

I'll be honest I don't remember you so I apologize.

Good luck.  I don't think requesting a shield gets you a pass, I'm sure we can look elsewhere at other people but your slot is at the top of a lot of people's lists at the moment.

[Shinori]

If we want to act under the assumption that is an actual lost wolf then a lot of association reads from refa just die in the water and it's MUCH more likely that scum could have potentially voted him while not thinking he was scum.

And if we ARE acting in this manner then SB slot should just go because of the post they made towards me on day 1 no matter what.

"corrupted by off-site games" is very interesting considering the mafia team is "off-site traitors".

@Percivalé

[j00]

Uh Shinori Cam is the consigliere, not Refa. 

[Shinori]

Oh.