OMG it's a tier list

[Florete]

First, Red Fox of Fire's post on Lyre (taken from FEPlanet). Link.

Oh wow, someone quoted me. Just an fyi, that actually comes from this topic right here on this forum. Something I swear I will finish.

[nflchamp]

For the record, feeding Meg kills is risky. 80% displayed isn't a big deal until you run the risk of dying when you miss.

[Rewjeo]

Is 80 displayed with a forge?

[nflchamp]

Is 80 displayed with a forge?

No, I suppose not.

Note to self: FE10 has forging. Remember that.

[grandjackal]

Even if she was trained up, what good would it do? Crap move, crap movetype, all to be underwhelming on top of that.

With Fiona, at least her mount can help get prisoners in chapter 1-7 out fast with rescue chains between her and Jill (that is, if you're not just having the LEA skip the chapter for you. You also have the unit slot for her. Leo's weaksauce by now, and Meg's a durff)). All without effort to be trained (of which Meg only has Shoving to respond with). Fiona can potentially help get you extra BEXP, Meg cannot.

I can only see Meg above Lyre, because she's shoving in a team that appreciates the helping hand. Lyre's not able to shove the humongous mercs, so she's doing...nothing.

[Soren37]

And watch as Fiona loses 2 MOV for being inside, bringing her move to 6. If you want to get the prisoners out fast, get Volug and Muarim to do it. They don't take the penalty and have monstrous MOV.

[-Cynthia-]

Meg's kind of not terrible in 1-5. She can at least chip something, or take a hit, and most of the team is having issues with KOing and not getting KOd (Dawn Brigade lol).

Astrid has some use in 3-9. Many CRKs are borderline 2HKOing, so an Astrid potshot can ensure that any 2 CRKs can kill an enemy. And she can put out house fires.

[Interceptor]

Astrid is kinda cool in 3-9 for the potshot thing, but that's about it.

Meg basically has a use in any chapter where you can deploy her for free:

• Ch1-4: able to smash walls at 2-range, can easily shove anyone other than Aran/Nolan, has a decent (~27%) chance to find hidden items on Turn 2-6 due to her biorhythm. Can take an (expensive) forged sword and maybe finish something off.
  
• Ch1-5: useful for the initial push on Turn 1, decent at ledge combat against mages when she has a Wind Edge.
  
• Ch1-6: shoving, weakener/finisher, decoy.
  
• Ch3-6: shoving, trading weapons/staves away from people, draining transform gauge with a Wind Edge.
  
• Ch3-12: pushing boulders, shoving people, rescuing exposed healers.
  
• Ch3-13: support option for base-level Leonardo, so that he has better accuracy on the east ballista than the NPC who normally sits there. blocking ledges.

That's about it. Anything more than that, and she's slowing down your army, and because she's Meg, you never get those turns back. Both Meg and Astrid are pretty useless in Part 4, but Astrid is slightly less useless because of Canto + Rescue, and the possibility of using the leftovers of Silencer or some bow forge (her damage is terrible, but she can sometimes turn a 2RKO into a ORKO).

Edited May 27, 2010 by Interceptor

[grandjackal]

And watch as Fiona loses 2 MOV for being inside, bringing her move to 6. If you want to get the prisoners out fast, get Volug and Muarim to do it. They don't take the penalty and have monstrous MOV.

They've got more important things to do.

Besides, let's say they rescue someone and move towards the door. Fiona can take the rescued unit off of them and Canto towards the door, of which then someone else takes said unit off Fiona, drops them, and bam I just saved you a turn rescuing that unit.

Furthermore, I would say that Fiona has all the right to be here to do this. There is one unit slot that at best can be filled by Meg or Leo, both of which are gimps here. Leo because he does pathetic damage at this point, and Meg's just flat out pathetic. At the very least, canto helps with rescue-chaining to get the prisoners out quicker. This alone helps beat chapter 1-7 quicker while getting the most BEXP possible without having to resort to a quick finish.

Therefore, what Fiona gets us is tangible, we get something out of using her, if only for such a minor thing. I would take that over what little Meg does to actually help out.

[Interceptor]

There is no way that what Fiona does in 1-7 justifies her use of a deployment slot. You only have seven spots here, three of which are taken by Sothe, Micaiah, and Volug, leaving only four discretionary slots. Fiona is only one choice of a possible ten. I would have no trouble at all coming up with four units better than her in terms of efficient completion of this chapter.

Also, ignoring feasibility of Fiona actually participating in rescue operations, the BEXP at stake here is not significant. If Fiona manages to contribute such that she's unequivocally responsible for the complete escape of two ally units, she's scored us 800 BEXP. This is not even enough BEXP to get Fiona a single level-up.

This chapter is a 6-turn clear, 7 turns at best, with the excellent prepromotes that you have in the form of Sothe, Volug and the LEA. Other than Tormod's accuracy at shooting up a ledge (something we've already discussed at length), this is reliable. For everyone else in the chapter, this is the second to last chance for self-improvement before Endgame.

[Narga_Rocks]

GJ, am I to assume that you want Fiona > Meg? I have trouble seeing that and in fact am willing to consider Meg > Astrid. Actually, I remember the smash crew arguing Meg > Astrid and RF making the change and then one day checking the list to see Astrid > Meg. Not that I disagree with Astrid > Meg, since I think I agree with that. I'm just saying I don't remember when an argument happened to reverse the previous change.

Oh, and that comic fails because it calls Micaiah "Failcaiah". Also because it has apparently never heard of forging (Fiona should not be tinking soldiers). Also because it (like many people) for some weird reason thinks that the river in 3-6 is a swamp. Believe me when I say that everyone would be moving even worse if it was a swamp instead of a river. Check this site's terrain data for a comparison of move cost over swamp compared to river. But the main point is that Micaiah is among your best DB units thanks to Thani and later staff use. Calling Micaiah "Failcaiah" = Failcomic.

Edited May 27, 2010 by Narga_Rocks

[grandjackal]

Wait, there's only 4 available slots? I know there's more than that. I remember I had Eddie, Nolan, Leo, Jill and Zihark on there at least.

I suppose you could replace Leo with Aran as well though, so...

[Interceptor]

No, there's six slots in 1-7; I don't know what chapter I was looking at when I said that. Problem is, I can also think of six units better than Fiona.

[Shadow Mir]

GJ, am I to assume that you want Fiona > Meg? I have trouble seeing that and in fact am willing to consider Meg > Astrid. Actually, I remember the smash crew arguing Meg > Astrid and RF making the change and then one day checking the list to see Astrid > Meg. Not that I disagree with Astrid > Meg, since I think I agree with that. I'm just saying I don't remember when an argument happened to reverse the previous change.

Oh, and that comic fails because it calls Micaiah "Failcaiah". Also because it has apparently never heard of forging (Fiona should not be tinking soldiers). Also because it (like many people) for some weird reason thinks that the river in 3-6 is a swamp. Believe me when I say that everyone would be moving even worse if it was a swamp instead of a river. Check this site's terrain data for a comparison of move cost over swamp compared to river. But the main point is that Micaiah is among your best DB units thanks to Thani and later staff use. Calling Micaiah "Failcaiah" = Failcomic.

I agree that failcomic is horrid.

[Narga_Rocks]

Oh yeah, one more thing about why that comic fails? Mounted units can move through swamp. If 3-6 was truly swamp then Fiona actually goes through better than foot units. It costs 5 for mounted and 4 for foot. Fiona has 3 remaining (or 4 after promotion) and foot has 2 remaining (3 after promotion). Whereas river costs 3 for foot and - for mounted since they can't go through it. Yeah. 3-6 is a swamp and Fiona can't go through it? comic fails.

Anyway, 6 units? Zihark + Nolan + Jill + Laura + do we really need anyone else? Now, sure, Ilyana and Edward and Aran and Leonardo are probably all better than her for this, but how much does it even matter for this chapter? There isn't even a turn 1 rush like in 1-5 and 1-6-2 where your units are all that important.

[grandjackal]

No, there's six slots in 1-7; I don't know what chapter I was looking at when I said that. Problem is, I can also think of six units better than Fiona.

Well lesse, who we have from our selectable cast, we have Nolan, Aran, Eddie, Leo, Laura, Jill, Illyana, Meg, Zihark and Fiona

Leo and Meg are out.

Zihark and Jill are definites, so that's two.

Nolan and Laura are obvious, that's 4.

Laura's going, that's 5.

That leaves us with Aran, Eddie and Illyana between them. Yeah, pretty reasonable you could choose from one of those 3.

Yeah, regardless seems I was in the wrong.

[Interceptor]

GJ, am I to assume that you want Fiona > Meg? I have trouble seeing that and in fact am willing to consider Meg > Astrid. Actually, I remember the smash crew arguing Meg > Astrid and RF making the change and then one day checking the list to see Astrid > Meg. Not that I disagree with Astrid > Meg, since I think I agree with that. I'm just saying I don't remember when an argument happened to reverse the previous change.

The gist of Team Smash's argument for Meg > Astrid was predicated on giving the two of them a shitload of resources and seeing what happens. While that's an interesting tangent, it puts them both squarely in the center of the 9th circle of Opportunity Cost Hell, and doesn't have anything to do with ranking in an efficiency tier list.

[Narga_Rocks]

The gist of Team Smash's argument for Meg > Astrid was predicated on giving the two of them a shitload of resources and seeing what happens. While that's an interesting tangent, it puts them both squarely in the center of the 9th circle of Opportunity Cost Hell, and doesn't have anything to do with ranking in an efficiency tier list.

There's a reason I'm in the Astrid > Meg camp. But I don't at all remember an argument preceding the change back to Astrid > Meg.

As for being on an efficiency tier list, we basically have Meg in 1-4 to 1-6 then 3-6, 3-12, 3-13 against Astrid in 2-3, 3-9, 2 chapters in part 4.

No, Meg isn't getting a deployment slot in part 4. There's almost no way she'll be better than your other options despite having over 30 slots available. At least, not if you were using her efficiently. Astrid at least can pick up an old silencer or an old forge and turn 2RKOs into 1RKOs without taking a counterattack and she'll even be able to canto out of the way at times to prevent needing a wall to protect her on enemy phase.

The reason I'm willing to see Meg > Astrid as possible has nothing to do with the smash crew's argument that if you pile on massive resources that Meg turns out slightly better than Astrid (which I actually question given possible parablossom now that we know what it probably does). It has everything to do with how useful they are when they can be used efficiently. Astrid doesn't even really get 2-3 since it's a lot easier to do that chapter without worrying about keeping her alive.

[Fruitloop Multipuck]

Where is this "failcomic?"

[Narga_Rocks]

Also, this comic outlines all of Fiona's shortcomings in the chapters you get her in.

Where is this "failcomic?"

Read posts more thoroughly next time.

[Soren37]

Where is this "failcomic?"

My post. Yeah, I know they call Micaiah failcaiah, but the thing is though, is that Fiona starts out difficult to train, and pouring BEXP and forges on her isn't going to make her much better. BEXP is hard to come by in HM, meaning you save it up until you can finally throw it to someone you deserves it. You can give Fiona 3 levels, but that's only if you complete some chapters with no prisoners or soldiers dying. Yes you come by gold, but why forge for Fiona when you can forge for a better character or a character who you desperately want to bring to endgame. 24,500 gold is plenty enough to forge a -5 WT, +5 MT, +15 HIT steel lance, you'll be paying 5664 gold to get that. Seems a bit rich to put all your resources into Fiona when there are so many better units that can outdo her with much less resources, such as Aran, Miccy, Sothe and Jill.

[Florete]

My post. Yeah, I know they call Micaiah failcaiah, but the thing is though, is that Fiona starts out difficult to train, and pouring BEXP and forges on her isn't going to make her much better. BEXP is hard to come by in HM, meaning you save it up until you can finally throw it to someone you deserves it. You can give Fiona 3 levels, but that's only if you complete some chapters with no prisoners or soldiers dying. Yes you come by gold, but why forge for Fiona when you can forge for a better character or a character who you desperately want to bring to endgame. 24,500 gold is plenty enough to forge a -5 WT, +5 MT, +15 HIT steel lance, you'll be paying 5664 gold to get that. Seems a bit rich to put all your resources into Fiona when there are so many better units that can outdo her with much less resources, such as Aran, Miccy, Sothe and Jill.

Who is making this argument?

[Narga_Rocks]

My post. Yeah, I know they call Micaiah failcaiah, but the thing is though, is that Fiona starts out difficult to train, and pouring BEXP and forges on her isn't going to make her much better. BEXP is hard to come by in HM, meaning you save it up until you can finally throw it to someone you deserves it. You can give Fiona 3 levels, but that's only if you complete some chapters with no prisoners or soldiers dying. Yes you come by gold, but why forge for Fiona when you can forge for a better character or a character who you desperately want to bring to endgame. 24,500 gold is plenty enough to forge a -5 WT, +5 MT, +15 HIT steel lance, you'll be paying 5664 gold to get that. Seems a bit rich to put all your resources into Fiona when there are so many better units that can outdo her with much less resources, such as Aran, Miccy, Sothe and Jill.

Who said anything about a steel forge? Those aren't even available until 1-E. If you want training Meg to be even remotely reasonable you'll need a forge on her. A forge for Fiona isn't really any worse than making one for Meg. Sothe can't even get a steel knife forge until part 4 (when you can soon get him a silver knife forge anyway) unless you steal one from Lethe/Mordy in 3-6 or from Kieran/Sigrun/Tanith in 3-12 or from a GM in 3-13. I think Sothe probably needs just two iron knife forges for part 1 and they don't help him all that much in part 3. Maybe 3 knife forges is safer. I don't remember how expensive a +5 mt +15 hit forge is, or if it's better to go all the way to +25 hit.

An iron lance forge for Fiona if you are fielding her at all in 1-7 and 1-E is practically manditory. It would be stupid not to if you are actually fielding her. Similarly, if you are seriously using Meg then she needs an iron sword forge. You have enough money to equip the units you are raising with forges.

But Fiona (used efficienlty) only has part 3 since deployment is too expensive for her in part 1. I definitely agree with Meg > Fiona. Just not a tier difference.

Who is making this argument?

Maybe phantom Narga and phantom Interceptor are making a return?

Edited May 27, 2010 by Narga_Rocks

[RNG Princess]

I think Meg, Astrid, and maybe Fiona are more useful than Kyza and especially Pelleas.

Mainly because their spots are free tickets.

Here's certain things I found useful for them, idk if it counts.

In 1-5 you can have Meg attack a tiger or cat that does not kill her and then have Micaiah+wrath sacrifice. I was lucky because that very first tiger the one closest to the units was weak and i did that right away :). I found this useful along part one, also a support with Ilyana is certainly useful. She's also better to take the hit from a mage and she can weaken them and have someone else take the kill that way the other unit does not get damage from the mage.

Astrid is useful for hit and run, on the very first turn I have all of my units attack an enemy and accomodate them in a fashion to guard Astrid (canto helps). Then I don't have to worry about her since she will be hitting and running back to a tall grass spot. She won't be doing much damage but any damage is certainly helping clear the path for Geoffrey. Data transfered Astrid is even better or not as bad.

Fiona is useful for that Earth support and free saviour makes her useful in other ways. In Part 3 is where she is noticeably more useful for her rescuing.

Pelleas also has a free ticket but he has hit issues and I think doubling issues as well unless you trade him with a thunder tome. You also have to wait two turns for him and he would have to be rushing into the fighting.

Edited May 27, 2010 by Queen_Elincia

[Maou]

My post. Yeah, I know they call Micaiah failcaiah, but the thing is though, is that Fiona starts out difficult to train, and pouring BEXP and forges on her isn't going to make her much better. BEXP is hard to come by in HM, meaning you save it up until you can finally throw it to someone you deserves it. You can give Fiona 3 levels, but that's only if you complete some chapters with no prisoners or soldiers dying. Yes you come by gold, but why forge for Fiona when you can forge for a better character or a character who you desperately want to bring to endgame. 24,500 gold is plenty enough to forge a -5 WT, +5 MT, +15 HIT steel lance, you'll be paying 5664 gold to get that. Seems a bit rich to put all your resources into Fiona when there are so many better units that can outdo her with much less resources, such as Aran, Miccy, Sothe and Jill.

Either way, using a comic intended for humor (whether it even accomplishes that is completely subjective) isn't the best way to supplement your argument.