OMG it's a tier list

[Interceptor]

What's the problem Rolf? If you're fine with Maurim being Sleep bait -- which is basically a suicide mission -- you should have no problem with him taking Wrath + Resolve and going forth to (maybe) a glorious death at the hands of the Order, after taking down as many as he can.

[Narga_Rocks]

What's the problem Rolf? If you're fine with Maurim being Sleep bait -- which is basically a suicide mission -- you should have no problem with him taking Wrath + Resolve and going forth to (maybe) a glorious death at the hands of the Order, after taking down as many as he can.

But 3 sleep charges, 3 LEA members. I'm afraid he'll die before he can get slept. A dead tiger doesn't make very good sleep bait.

Inglorious death at best, considering he'll either die before burning a sleep use or he'll be napping while he should be wrath-ing. There isn't actually much opportunity for a wrath+resolve blaze of glory before you are in range of the sleep guy.

[dondon151]

I wouldn't go that far. It's certainly not as hard to tier as something like Heather or the herons, since Mist has two clear, discrete competitors that exist for any team - Mr. Vulnerary and Mrs. Concoction.

And Rhys. I know everyone likes to kick Rhys to the side of the road, but 11-12 range Physic is a great boon.

Even in 3-8, the onyl new units we have for those spots are Janaff/Ulki/Reyson, and we only want to use one of janaff/ulki, and again, tehre are more than 8 slots, so Mordy can easily find a place until part 4, where there are so many slots It doesn't matter, like, at all.

I don't disagree that it's not hard to field Mordy, but why do we only want to use one of Janaff and Ulki?

[Shadow Mir]

And Rhys. I know everyone likes to kick Rhys to the side of the road, but 11-12 range Physic is a great boon.

Until it breaks. Then we've got a problem. And there's the issue of the Physic staff being worn down from Elincia using it - but just how worn down it'll be is the question.

[Interceptor]

But 3 sleep charges, 3 LEA members. I'm afraid he'll die before he can get slept. A dead tiger doesn't make very good sleep bait.

Inglorious death at best, considering he'll either die before burning a sleep use or he'll be napping while he should be wrath-ing. There isn't actually much opportunity for a wrath+resolve blaze of glory before you are in range of the sleep guy.

A suicide attack isn't the only way to deal with Sleep, however, since Mist is on-hand to Restore people (and has no business promoting before then). I personally found Suicide Maurim to be useful in 4-4 on my run, though he didn't have the dignity to make the ultimate sacrifice (came close a few times with epic crits, though).

[Fenrir]

who's idea is it to use ONE hawk on a big map?

And why is Muarim being debated? what happened to Aran down and eddy up?

[dondon151]

Anyway: granted, this is my personal experience and may not resemble an optimal strategy, but I got some use out of Titania and her Pocket Mist (aka, Savior + Rescue) due to +ATK and mirrored DEF. BoydxMist doesn't make either of them good, so I consider it kind of a waste of a good Water.

I didn't get a chance to reply earlier because of work. Pocket Mist is certainly marginally more useful than BoydxMist, but it's not really a huge deal for Titania. You don't get access to it until 3-2 at best, and you don't need a support at all to clear it fast. They're still at C for 3-3 and Titania has no trouble OHKOing generals with Hammer with or without a Mist support. Savior belongs to Haar in 3-4 and 3-5. Titania can't access a good 75% of the map in 3-7. In 3-8, the defense and hit bonuses might be a little useful, but Titania only needs 1 str and a promotion on top of her base to OHKO every single general on the map (sans Septimus) and doesn't have trouble 2HKOing even the toughest 40 HP, 22 def halbs with a 16 MT Steel Axe - she only needs the promotion gains to do so, or just 1 str on base. 3-10 is more of the same, and 3-11 demands Savior being allocated to one of your fliers.

So offensively, Titania doesn't really demand a boost. Defense, sure, but Titania can support any other affinity for at least +2 def by 3-8, so she's not terribly wanting of Mist.

Until it breaks. Then we've got a problem. And there's the issue of the Physic staff being worn down from Elincia using it - but just how worn down it'll be is the question.

I still have, I think, 10/15 on my Physic staff in 3-8. You may think that since I've only had to use it 5 times, that it hasn't been useful, but it is a veritable lifesaver, particularly on 3-3 and 3-4. Elincia also shouldn't use it at all in 2-E; you can clear it easily in 3 turns while obtaining the important items, and it doesn't require any uses of Physic at all.

A suicide attack isn't the only way to deal with Sleep, however, since Mist is on-hand to Restore people (and has no business promoting before then). I personally found Suicide Maurim to be useful in 4-4 on my run, though he didn't have the dignity to make the ultimate sacrifice (came close a few times with epic crits, though).

Didn't you say that you had Provoke on Mist? Was that successful in drawing the Sleep fire, or totally ineffective?

[RNG Princess]

Interceptor's strategy of Mist+restore staff is an amazing way to deal with that enemy. What can Lea do anyways in 4-4 to stay useful? I don't think using meteor is a good thing or is it?

I think I'd rather use Rhys and/or any other healer than vulenaries, I like my characters fighting instead of using up turns on vulenaries or concoctions I carry those just in case.

Edited July 13, 2010 by Queen_Elincia

[nflchamp]

Interceptor's strategy of Mist+restore staff is an amazing way to deal with that enemy. What can Lea do anyways in 4-4 to stay useful? I don't think using meteor is a good thing or is it?

LEA can eat up sleep staff uses for the big guns you want to still have the entirety of their enemy phase. I mean, yeah, Mist can Restore it, but that enemy phase is still basically wasted from that point on.

[Narga_Rocks]

And why is Muarim being debated? what happened to Aran down and eddy up?

I'd love to. Though not necessarily Ed > Aran, but certainly in the same tier. Nobody has actually stated where they should go.

To be honest, I rather like Tormod > Muarim in mid (not sure where), Ed > Geoffrey > Kieran > Tormod > Muarim, actually. Though I suppose you can swap Kieran and Geoffrey, though Kieran is pretty trash-like when you get to 3-11 so I don't see why it's an advantage. As far as I am concerned the battle is basically during 2-3 and 3-9. The winner of that wins out. Mak (T) can actually be useful in 3-11 and beyond. I think he could actually have a shot at being good enough to do more than pick his nose. But Ed > him regardless. Rolf (T) is still up for debate about dropping. Mist (T) I suppose could stand to drop to mid, but I can't stand the idea of the speed transfer only allowing her to beat herself (and thus be listed as Mist (N/T) due to them being effectively in the same spot). Maybe both could drop, though Heather v Mist is as difficult to play with as Interceptor complains about.

Giffca and Cain should probably be under Ed if we are really valuing his early-game (even without assigning a lot of weight to 1-P).

Anyway, back to Muarim: I'm just saying that Muarim's "contribution" with resolve isn't exactly much competition for Mordy using one in part 4.

[RNG Princess]

Poor Lea, especially Vika she's practically dealing no damage at all or was that Tormod? No it wasn't Tormod, I remember in normal mode he had a lot of hit issues in 4-4.

Kieran > Geoffrey imo

he can help Pelleas in 4-2 with a nice forge, so can anyone else but at least he has the opportunity over Geoffrey.

Edited July 13, 2010 by Queen_Elincia

[dondon151]

Mist (T) I suppose could stand to drop to mid, but I can't stand the idea of the speed transfer only allowing her to beat herself (and thus be listed as Mist (N/T) due to them being effectively in the same spot). Maybe both could drop, though Heather v Mist is as difficult to play with as Interceptor complains about.

To be honest, I actually want to push Rhys > Mist (both versions). Mist has been almost completely useless so far.

[Shadow Mir]

Kieran > Geoffrey imo

he can help Pelleas in 4-2 with a nice forge, so can anyone else but at least he has the opportunity over Geoffrey.

Kieran's already above Geoffrey.

[RNG Princess]

Also based on 4-2 I think Pelleas should drop to bottom tier.

After arriving if he takes the left side he's going to need some shoving around to catch up, if he goes to the bottom part of the map he has to be careful with the enemies there especially the pegasus knights so he's likely to wait and he'll have trouble keeping up. BTW bottom part is easier for him to reach due to his placing when he steps in, and enemy placings on both places.

So the best thing to do with him is having him kill/hurt an enemy armor on turn 2 if there are any of the three left. Have him wait for the warrior reinforcements on turn 5 and 6 (one enemy reinforce for each turn) so he and another character can team up on them. Any other decent pair of scrubs (I used callil and kieran) can do this without him.

He can also use Fenrir but he can have hit issues, the best he had was 70% hit on a warrior :). Its better to giv him a forged thunder tome so he can hit the enemy instead of miss. The reason I think he should drop is because he's no different from Astrid, except dealing better damage but not enough to OHKO an enemy unless he lands a crit. Both Pelleas and Astrid need partners to kill an enemy, and both face durability issues but he has hit issues and costs a forge.

I'm basing this on 4-2 I'll wait for 4-5.

Edited July 13, 2010 by Queen_Elincia

[Soren37]

Mist should drop down a couple of notches. You already have 2 healers, and the one reason she was passable as a combat unit as well in PoR was because of magic swords. Those got pulled in RD, meaning that her effective combat usefulness is useless, as her MAG is always better than her STR, and giving her Energy Drops is useless, as other units want that delicious water more.

[Interceptor]

I didn't get a chance to reply earlier because of work. Pocket Mist is certainly marginally more useful than BoydxMist, but it's not really a huge deal for Titania. [...] So offensively, Titania doesn't really demand a boost. Defense, sure, but Titania can support any other affinity for at least +2 def by 3-8, so she's not terribly wanting of Mist.

My rebuttal to this entire thing: forged Hand Axes. Titania is totally outrageous with them in 3-8, and she does a repeat performance in 3-10. Those two chapters alone justify the combination.

Also, the fact that the Mist support builds quickly and mirrors DEF is something that I find particularly useful. Titania is no brick house defensively, especially not when she's alone. Not even Sol fixes her durability, because it's so unreliable.

I still have, I think, 10/15 on my Physic staff in 3-8. You may think that since I've only had to use it 5 times, that it hasn't been useful, but it is a veritable lifesaver, particularly on 3-3 and 3-4. Elincia also shouldn't use it at all in 2-E; you can clear it easily in 3 turns while obtaining the important items, and it doesn't require any uses of Physic at all.

I agree with most of this, I used it even less than you did.

Didn't you say that you had Provoke on Mist? Was that successful in drawing the Sleep fire, or totally ineffective?

Option C: inconclusive. I used a strategy that didn't rely on Mist getting targeted, so I don't have any idea if it would have worked. I may have a save at 3-Endgame that I could plow to 4-4 if you'd like me to do a proper test of it for 0% growths or something.

Interceptor's strategy of Mist+restore staff is an amazing way to deal with that enemy. What can Lea do anyways in 4-4 to stay useful? I don't think using meteor is a good thing or is it?

Maurim is a good kamikaze pilot, and Tormod + meteor is good for smashing doors open. It takes him two shots, though. Also, Vika is the shit for shove chains, since she can Canto afterwards.

To be honest, I actually want to push Rhys > Mist (both versions). Mist has been almost completely useless so far.

You can feel free to throw Rhys into the burlap sack while you're at it.

Edited July 13, 2010 by Interceptor

[nflchamp]

Mist should drop down a couple of notches. You already have 2 healers, and the one reason she was passable as a combat unit as well in PoR was because of magic swords. Those got pulled in RD, meaning that her effective combat usefulness is useless, as her MAG is always better than her STR, and giving her Energy Drops is useless, as other units want that delicious water more.

Hahaha, Mist's placement having anything to do with her offense. That's a good one.

Edited July 13, 2010 by nflchamp

[Fenrir]

I'd love to. Though not necessarily Ed > Aran, but certainly in the same tier. Nobody has actually stated where they should go.

To be honest, I rather like Tormod > Muarim in mid (not sure where), Ed > Geoffrey > Kieran > Tormod > Muarim, actually. Though I suppose you can swap Kieran and Geoffrey, though Kieran is pretty trash-like when you get to 3-11 so I don't see why it's an advantage. As far as I am concerned the battle is basically during 2-3 and 3-9. The winner of that wins out. Mak (T) can actually be useful in 3-11 and beyond. I think he could actually have a shot at being good enough to do more than pick his nose. But Ed > him regardless. Rolf (T) is still up for debate about dropping. Mist (T) I suppose could stand to drop to mid, but I can't stand the idea of the speed transfer only allowing her to beat herself (and thus be listed as Mist (N/T) due to them being effectively in the same spot). Maybe both could drop, though Heather v Mist is as difficult to play with as Interceptor complains about.

Giffca and Cain should probably be under Ed if we are really valuing his early-game (even without assigning a lot of weight to 1-P).

Anyway, back to Muarim: I'm just saying that Muarim's "contribution" with resolve isn't exactly much competition for Mordy using one in part 4.

I am assuming that Ed > Geoffrey > Kieran > Tormod > Muarim would start at where Muarim's position is?

Ed > Cain/Giffca also sounds good, yes or no to transfer giffca?

I could see Aran plopping in right above where Ed is, or above Giffca(t) if Ed is below him. It's hard to say he is more useful than Tauroneo, Since Tauroneo can hold his own on 3-12/3-13 and makes 1-6 easy. Brom's P2 beats aran IMO, Rhys along with Soren and Tanith transfered can beat aran, Soren with speed transfer and speedwing could actually be decent.

The biggest problem with mid would be/is Mist, why is she above Rhys, her fighting is not better and all she has over him is 3 tier pony, but what are her chances of getting to Valkyrie, and even if she does, it hurts her on 4-4. I just don't get why mist is above all these units.

[Florete]

To be honest, I actually want to push Rhys > Mist (both versions). Mist has been almost completely useless so far.

On what? Physic range? Chip damage? To be able to say "completely useless," just how much is everyone disregarding healing now? It's not like the GM's are invincible or anything. Healing might have been a bit overrated in the past, but now I'm wondering if it's being taken too lightly.

[RNG Princess]

Mist has innate Miracle, its pretty random though so idk if it should count. She can promote in 4-1 if she reached level 10. The other differences is that she has less magic base and growth than Rhys but a little bit more speed base and growth, she has her own free sword and her own promotion item.

She can still be a convenient unit to use because she has her own promotion item and he'd have to compete for a master crown, but he's still handy with 25+ magic in part 4, so she'll only beat him due to move.

Her 13 magic looses to his 23 magic and he treats a heal staff like a mend, so Mist needs many mends staffs the good thing is they are cheap in 3-2.

Imo their gap shouldn't be that much.

Physic doesn't last forever though and she always has better move.

Edited July 13, 2010 by Queen_Elincia

[Interceptor]

On what? Physic range? Chip damage? To be able to say "completely useless," just how much is everyone disregarding healing now? It's not like the GM's are invincible or anything. Healing might have been a bit overrated in the past, but now I'm wondering if it's being taken too lightly.

If had to place a bet, I'd say that the Pope prefers Rhys almost purely for weakening w/Light, and his Physic range. But that's largely because his team hardly grows at all, and he's doing Xtreem Lowturning, which undoubtedly has some implications for healing load. This is probably the outside edge of what healing is required.

(subliminal suggestion of Yin from DtB for upcoming avatar)

I think that the tier list case for Rhys/Mist is probably closer to my runthrough, which was fairly efficient while avoiding manipulations. Unfortunately, I hardly used healing any more than he seems to be doing. I basically abandoned Rhys after he got a couple of levels, and Mist only barely made it to -/10 by the time that 4-4 rolled around. Also consider that Mist spent all of 3-8 and 3-10 in Titania's saddlebags, and I didn't bother to deploy a replacement healer. That should give you a clue as to how important that healing is for the army once they get going.

Edited July 13, 2010 by Interceptor

[dondon151]

My rebuttal to this entire thing: forged Hand Axes. Titania is totally outrageous with them in 3-8, and she does a repeat performance in 3-10. Those two chapters alone justify the combination.

Here's my rebuttal: forged Hand Axes are 14 MT, which gives promoted Titania at least 42 atk, which still 2HKOs every halb, warrior, and sniper in existence in 3-8. It misses 2HKO on 3-10 DKs, but consider that the player is more likely promoting Titania the conventional way by giving her 5 levels, so she has a 97.4% chance of capping str in tier 2, so she'll reach 2HKO on the 42 HP, 22 def DK but will be 1 HP short on the 43 HP, 22 def ones. That's still only 2 enemies in the entire chapter that pocket Mist would help her on.

Now, if you don't think Titania can be promoted, then that's another story, because she'll definitely need +2 atk from A Mist to reach those 2HKOs with a 14 MT Hand Axe.

Option C: inconclusive. I used a strategy that didn't rely on Mist getting targeted, so I don't have any idea if it would have worked. I may have a save at 3-Endgame that I could plow to 4-4 if you'd like me to do a proper test of it for 0% growths or something.

I would appreciate it if you could test it out, particularly since base Mist is not exactly tough on the res end, which would make Provoke more effective. Since offensive staves work so differently from normal attacks in most cases (no +hit from supports, no leadership), I'd like to know if it would even work in the first place.

On what? Physic range? Chip damage? To be able to say "completely useless," just how much is everyone disregarding healing now? It's not like the GM's are invincible or anything. Healing might have been a bit overrated in the past, but now I'm wondering if it's being taken too lightly.

Yes to both. Physic range is the important one here, since even though one may argue that Mist's higher mov offsets Rhys's greater Physic range (considering the 5 tile difference, not true, but let's assume that it is), there are still situations where that doesn't work in practice. For example, what if having to move closer for a Physic puts Mist in range of enemies while it does not result in the same for Rhys (I encountered this situation in 3-3)? Or what about the gaps in 3-4 - Rhys does not have to climb up any gaps in order to Physic the top plateau, whereas Mist does?

Chip damage is less important, but still situationally useful.

[Fenrir]

I still don't get why mist is at top of mid, Rhys has her beat the entire game to me, until endgame, but are we really going to take her over Elincia?

more physic, more chip damage, more actual healing power, all mist has is water affinity.

[Interceptor]

Now, if you don't think Titania can be promoted, then that's another story, because she'll definitely need +2 atk from A Mist to reach those 2HKOs with a 14 MT Hand Axe.

Yes, that was my point. A promoted Titania in 3-8 doesn't grant you anything special in a playthrough with normal growths, as Titania has no problems reaching 25 AS in tier 2 by this point. So Haar takes the 3-3 crown, natch, I can leave both of the DBs crowns with them, and I get to use my BEXP on units like Mia, Ike, Titania herself (small amounts), or Neffiknees. I think that this is pretty effective, as it preserves resources later without costing offense for her, and allowing 1-2 range.

Back to the original topic, I consider this to be better than a Spirit Dust.

I would appreciate it if you could test it out, particularly since base Mist is not exactly tough on the res end, which would make Provoke more effective. Since offensive staves work so differently from normal attacks in most cases (no +hit from supports, no leadership), I'd like to know if it would even work in the first place.

I don't mind. I'll see about getting to it by the weekend, and report to Zero Percent Headquarters.

[Shadow Mir]

I still don't get why mist is at top of mid, Rhys has her beat the entire game to me, until endgame, but are we really going to take her over Elincia?

more physic, more chip damage, more actual healing power, all mist has is water affinity.

And for what it's worth, Mist is easier to shove, and she still has move over him, even if it's not that big a difference. And even if Mist doesn't have it much better, Rhys gets doubled by the world.

Edited July 13, 2010 by Ein Lanford