OMG it's a tier list

[Shadow Mir]

Titania 20/3 (With Hammer)

43 Atk (129 against Armours), 135 Hit, 26 AS 13% Sol

Titania 20/3 (With Steel Axe)

41 Atk, 150 Hit, 26 AS, 13% Sol

3-4 Generals

1x Axe General lvl 11 (Steel Poleax)

HP 40, Atk 37, AS 17, Hit 117, Avo 51, DEF 24, RES 15, Crit 10, Ddg 17

1x Lance General lvl 9 (Short Spear)

HP 39, Atk 31, AS 18, Hit 109, Avo 52, DEF 24, RES 14, Crit 9, Ddg 16

1x Axe General lvl 10 (Steel Poleax)

HP 39, Atk 37, AS 17, Hit 116, Avo 50, DEF 24, RES 14, Crit 10, Ddg 16

1x Lance General lvl 12 (Short Spear, Arrive square)

HP 41, Atk 32, AS 18, Hit 112, Avo 53, DEF 25, RES 5, Crit 10, Ddg 17

She'll deal 34 damage total to all of them, except for the Arrive Square guy, which she'll only deal 32 damage. If we give her a Steel Axe Forge, with +5 Mt, then she can cleanly ORKO all of them, which will preserve Hammer uses. And the link in Int's sig about the GM's funds shows that you do have the money to forge for her. It'll cost 1600 Gold, which you should you have enough.

After looking at Mia's stats if she were the same level as Titania, she'd have issues killing Generals unless she got a critical, Adept, or Astra, and even then, she'd need a Steel Blade to pull it off.

As far as I can tell, Titania is a better General killer, but she needs a Steel Axe Forge to pull it off and avoid eating through Hammer uses.

This analysis is wrong on so many levels. First off, effective damage triples the weapon's mt. Second, that is a massively overleveled Titania. How in the world is she going to be that high of a level that early on??? She starts at level 16, and as such, isn't going to be getting very many experience from kills. Third, you forgot the fact that all of those guys are at the top portion of the map, and thus, she can't do crap against them.

Edited August 18, 2010 by Ein Lanford

[Soren37]

Crap. Sorry. Ignore that, then.

[dondon151]

Yeah. I'm sorry, but that comparison is hilariously bad.

[Soren37]

Yeah...Reasons not to do comparisons when you just wake up...

I guess I'll hop on the Mist vs. Rhys bandwagon.

So, first off, as everyone states, Rhys has 10 higher MAG which allows him to heal more and increase his Physic range. That's nice. This also increases his chip damage and helps him take potshots every once in a while. His bases are all better than Mist's actually, barring HP and SPD. Seeing as we're not going to send our healers into combat, I won't worry about battle stats, but I will say that Mist has a better chance of doubling than Rhys, but there's one thing that will drag down Mist in combat.

The lack of swords that use your MAG stat. The swords that you received in PoR were almost built for Mist, as she could equip the Sonic Sword, go to town on some jerks, and still be durable enough to avoid attacks and kill in return. The fact that they haven't made a return means she's looking at a maximum Atk of 42 (Vague Katti and 20/20 stats). However, she won't get to 20/20. Hell, she probably won't promote by 3-E unless you baby her or use BEXP. Although she has a +1 Mov over Rhys, and a +3 advantage over him in 3rd Tier, it's still not helping her combat or her healing.

Sure she gets a pretty horsey and Canto, which means she can Mend 'n' Dash, but she's not healing as much as Rhys. Rhys' base MAG is as much Mist's 20/1 MAG. Rhys > Mist in healing.

As I said, I won't go over combat. Both of them are too frail to enter combat. Rhys can take a hit from mages, and Mist can have some nice Avo, they're both too fragile. Keep 'em in the back and let 'em heal. It's what they're there for.

Next is Physic range. At the start, Rhys has a 1-11 range, while Mist has a 1-6 Range. However, Mist has one more Mov than Rhys, so if Rhys moves his full Mov to heal someone, he has a total range of 1-17, while Mist has a range of 1-13. Rhys still wins. If both promote (somehow), then we have a 1-19 range for Rhys (at 20/1), and Mist has a 1-18 range. Rhys is still winning out. So how is Mist above him?

Maybe it's their affinities? Mist has a Water, which gives out +0.5 Atk and Def, which is fabulous. Rhys has Fire, which is a +0.5 Atk and +2.5 Hit. Both give a +Atk, but Mist's give a +Def as well, which increases the durability of her support partners, while Rhys has lolHit, which isn't entirely necessary in this game unless you're bringing crap. However, Mist has no one to support with that's in her Mov range. She can support with Shinon for a full Def boost, but Mist isn't coming to Endgame. She can support with Boyd if you like story endings, but it does give Boyd a +1 Atk, and because of rounding in this game, she'll receive the +3 Hit and he'll receive the +1 Def. She also has Rolf, who isn't doing much due to a rocky start and he can't do much damage. The +1 will be nice, but Mist is receiving a Hit and Avo bonus. While she likes the Avo boost, the Hit isn't necessary unless Rolf really needs it. She can't grab any of the laguz either, as they'll be running around with more Mov then her until she promotes, which she won't get.

Rhys' options? Soren and Gatrie. Dark can mirror the Atk boost, which increases both of their chip damage, and the slight Avo boost is nice, although largely unnoticed. The Hit boost is almost unnecessary as well. +3 to both of them is almost useless. Gatrie can appreciate the +5 Hit boost, and the +1 Def boost will make him more durable. The Atk bonus is also nice on Gatrie. However, Gatrie needs to be on the front lines, and Rhys should be standing back to avoid damage. The 3-square radius can protect Rhys slightly, but still.

Next, transfers. Mist is stated as getting MAG and SPD. Look above and increase the Physic range by 1. That's all it does. And makes her cap MAG by...nothing. She still can't cap MAG in Tier 2. The Avo goes up a bit, and she can cap SPD by --/15, which means you can start BEXP abuse to raise LCK, SKL, and MAG. Oh wait, those are her 3 highest, and what she wants is HP, DEF, and STR to increase her chip damage and durability. Her transfers don't do much for her. A bit more SPD, but that's hit.

Rhys gets MAG, SKL, and RES. This means he now starts with his MAG stat capped. How nice is that? His SKL can cap at --/14, which is really nice. He caps his RES at --/9, which means you can start BEXPing his HP, SPD, and DEF up. The stats most likely to go up will be LCK, HP, SKL/SPD.

However, when you get down to it, both of them are only really needed for their healing utility. Rhys, as shown, can do this better than Mist throughout the entire game. Therefore, I would think that Rhys(T) can go above Brom (+2 placements), Rhys(N) can stay where he is. Mist can drop below Rhys, as she can't do combat as well anymore, and her healing is over-shadowed by Rhys (-7 placements). Mist(T) can almost be slashed with Mist(N).

And that's all I'll say. dondon, Int, RFoF, and Narga, critique and argue my stupidity.

[dondon151]

So, first off, as everyone states, Rhys has 10 higher MAG which allows him to heal more and increase his Physic range. That's nice. This also increases his chip damage and helps him take potshots every once in a while... Hell, she probably won't promote by 3-E unless you baby her or use BEXP. Although she has a +1 Mov over Rhys, and a +3 advantage over him in 3rd Tier, it's still not helping her combat or her healing.

+3 move does give her a healing advantage, but she doesn't promote until 4-1 at the earliest and the advantage isn't significant in those map.

Sure she gets a pretty horsey and Canto, which means she can Mend 'n' Dash, but she's not healing as much as Rhys. Rhys' base MAG is as much Mist's 20/1 MAG. Rhys > Mist in healing.

If you're implying that Rhys healing more HP is significant, it's not. Mist has access to the 2-E Recover, and even Mend almost always heals more than enough HP. Mist is also never reaching 20/1 if the player wants to promote her in 4-4.

Maybe it's their affinities? Mist has a Water, which gives out +0.5 Atk and Def, which is fabulous. Rhys has Fire, which is a +0.5 Atk and +2.5 Hit. Both give a +Atk, but Mist's give a +Def as well, which increases the durability of her support partners, while Rhys has lolHit, which isn't entirely necessary in this game unless you're bringing crap. However, Mist has no one to support with that's in her Mov range. She can support with Shinon for a full Def boost, but Mist isn't coming to Endgame. She can support with Boyd if you like story endings, but it does give Boyd a +1 Atk, and because of rounding in this game, she'll receive the +3 Hit and he'll receive the +1 Def. She also has Rolf, who isn't doing much due to a rocky start and he can't do much damage. The +1 will be nice, but Mist is receiving a Hit and Avo bonus. While she likes the Avo boost, the Hit isn't necessary unless Rolf really needs it. She can't grab any of the laguz either, as they'll be running around with more Mov then her until she promotes, which she won't get.

The support bonuses for Mist and Rhys themselves are trivial. You're wasting too much breath over them. The bonuses for the partners are significant, but virtually their only possible partners are Titania, Neph, and Shinon. With Rhys instead of Mist, Titania only loses +1 def (which is not important unless you can find specific examples where it saves Titania from death, but you probably won't). Additionally, Rhys can support Shinon for +2 atk at A which allows the former to 2HKO 3-8 halbs with Silencer and +2 str on base (as opposed to +4, which won't happen in Shinon's tier 2 lifetime). The differences in bonuses are hardly significant.

Next, transfers. Mist is stated as getting MAG and SPD. Look above and increase the Physic range by 1. That's all it does. And makes her cap MAG by...nothing. She still can't cap MAG in Tier 2. The Avo goes up a bit, and she can cap SPD by --/15, which means you can start BEXP abuse to raise LCK, SKL, and MAG. Oh wait, those are her 3 highest, and what she wants is HP, DEF, and STR to increase her chip damage and durability. Her transfers don't do much for her. A bit more SPD, but that's hit.

Rhys gets MAG, SKL, and RES. This means he now starts with his MAG stat capped. How nice is that? His SKL can cap at --/14, which is really nice. He caps his RES at --/9, which means you can start BEXPing his HP, SPD, and DEF up. The stats most likely to go up will be LCK, HP, SKL/SPD.

Neither unit is going to reach, or even come close, to --/20, and neither unit should be the recipient of BEXP because it's utterly pointless to buffer their abysmal combat parameters.

And that's all I'll say. dondon, Int, RFoF, and Narga, critique and argue my stupidity.

You tend to spend a lot of words on points that are either insignificant, extremely unlikely to happen, completely suboptimal, or a combination of all three.

[Anouleth]

Yeah...Reasons not to do comparisons when you just wake up...

I guess I'll hop on the Mist vs. Rhys bandwagon.

blah blah blah

Both Mist and Rhys level VERY slowly. I think dondon is struggling even to get her to level 10 for promotion, and no wonder. However, their stats are generally worthless. Their combat and durability is unsalvageable, Recovers are buyable iirc, and generally they won't be near the front lines anyway to attack/get attacked.

All that matters is:

Mist has a better affinity and I think more accelerated supports (don't quote me on that)

Rhys has more range with Physic (11 to Mist's 6, with a better growth)

Mist has more movement and is more easily shoveable

Rhys can shove opponents more easily

Mist can have a pony in 4-1, maybe

Rhys can climb ledges in 4-4

Mist is worth deploying in Endgame because she has a pony and can use Rescue

[dondon151]

Mist has a better affinity and I think more accelerated supports (don't quote me on that)

Rhys has more range with Physic (11 to Mist's 6, with a better growth)

Mist has more movement and is more easily shoveable

Rhys can shove opponents more easily

Mist can have a pony in 4-1, maybe

Rhys can climb ledges in 4-4

Mist is worth deploying in Endgame because she has a pony and can use Rescue

- Mist's affinity is only marginally better than Rhys's. When mirroring another +def affinity, Mist only has +1 def at B and A, and you'll be hard pressed to find specific examples for its utility. Rhys gives +hit, which, among other things, allows you to brandish a Hammer with less risk of missing, but neither of these are significant enough to tip the support card in either unit's favor. What matters is that they give +atk.

- Conversely, Rhys also pretty much caps his staff range at 12, but he still wins forever.

- Mist being shoveable is trivial when you consider that there are many superior shove targets. Like, ones that can fight.

- Rhys can shove... Shinon and untransformed Ulki. He can't be shoved by Soren, Rolf, and untransformed Janaff, but the former 2 are terrible characters and the last usually has better things to do than shoving healers. I can see this being slightly more useful than Mist's advantage of being easier to shove.

- I only got Mist to --/10 by 4-1 with Paragon, which will almost certainly not be going to Mist. That said, you do have BEXP (which can go to better recipients than Mist).

- Yes, Rhys can climb ledges in 4-4, and regardless of his poor movement he still has 12 Physic range.

- I can't say anything about the merits of Mist's 4-E deployment without having actually tried it myself.

[Interceptor]

Do I have to trace out the sequence of tangent lines for you?

By all means, make yourself a discussion flowchart in MSPaint, if that's what it takes for you to understand. To simplify this one more time: if you agree that Mia is potentially reducing Hammer uses by virtue of the fact that she exists, then the specific magnitude of your agreement is not relevant to my point.

I can't stop you from going beyond that, but I can ignore it. Which I will continue to do. Refresher: Interceptor is not interested in random discussion of tangential points on this issue.

I did not infer reason 3 to be a lesser point, because points 1 and 2 were never significant to begin with.

By "lesser point", I just meant that it was a point that required a qualifier. The other two stand on their own (evidenced by how you knew exactly what I was talking about), whether or not you think that they are important.

Are we all done with this point now, or do you want to do a couple more volleys on the semantics? Let me know.

You're treating that 1 extra BEXP level for Titania as if it completely ruins part 4 prospects for your 7 move beorc.

No, I am not. By the way, have you noticed that I'm saying "no, that's not true" and "no, nobody said that" a lot in my replies? This should be a red flag for you.

Anyway, my point about Titania's BEXP is that it duplicates something that we're already basically getting from a Mist support, which has a low opportunity cost at it is, and isn't particularly troublesome to get use out of, especially in 3-8. As a result, it doesn't take much of a need in terms of BEXP, in order to make a Mist support a better deal than a bonus level for Titania. In other words, we are probably better off giving it to someone else, eating our cake and still having it.

Also consider that promoting Titania earlier gives her a head start on reaching the necessary part 4 AS without a Speedwings.

It's a smaller relative footprint on resources to give her post-CRK BEXP for that, in base. Titania is going to have 27 AS at level 1 tier 3 the vast majority of the time. This means that she only needs 1 or 2 AS on top of that to be effective in 4-1 (level 3 to 5ish), and will be OK in 4-4 if she hits about 31 AS (level 9 or so).

Why do I have to be the one that budges?

Nobody said that you had to budge. I even said it was your prerogative to take that position, AKA it's your right to do so. I was just pointing out your intransigence as a reason why you and I can't really have a discussion on this point.

Uh, how is this relevant?

As expected, I am Internet Nostradamus; you didn't consider the implications of what I said outside the confines of your own biases. The example of a Rout was a hypothetical situation aimed at explaining how I look at efficiency. It apparently had all of the penetration power of a water balloon. I am not defending my turn counts, since anyone who is fluent in English can read the thread, the OP especially, and see why they were what they were, since that's sort of the point of the playlog to begin with.

See above statement RE: why we can't have a discussion about this, ever. Not only do you continuously run off the beaten path, but you get frustrated when I don't chase you into the woods, which just makes things worse.

This is exactly why CM's current playthrough is important. We don't know anything for sure until then, but my hunch is that the CEXP losses won't actually be that significant.

We won't know anything for sure after then, either, given the RNG and the continuous possibility for tweaking. At best, we get a little bit closer to a complete answer; this stuff is iterative. And keep in mind: if the CEXP losses are not significant, that doesn't necessarily mean that there aren't better places for the BEXP than superfluous power-ups on Titania.

[Soren37]

+3 move does give her a healing advantage, but she doesn't promote until 4-1 at the earliest and the advantage isn't significant in those map.

If you're implying that Rhys healing more HP is significant, it's not. Mist has access to the 2-E Recover, and even Mend almost always heals more than enough HP. Mist is also never reaching 20/1 if the player wants to promote her in 4-4.

If Mist has access to the 2-E Recover, then Rhys has access to it as well. Mist can maybe reach a near-death target faster with the Recover, but that's highly situational. And that's why I said several times that they would be getting to those levels. Plus, if you're trying to conserve your gold, then you cheap out and buy Heal staffs.

I will agree with you that the amount healed is insignificant. However, Rhys is more effective with a Heal staff, healing 33 HP per use. I doubt any of your characters should need a 33 HP heal, but if you somehow do, then that's who you use. Plus, Mend always seemed a bit overkill for me. 20+MAG always seemed to high.

The support bonuses for Mist and Rhys themselves are trivial. You're wasting too much breath over them. The bonuses for the partners are significant, but virtually their only possible partners are Titania, Neph, and Shinon. With Rhys instead of Mist, Titania only loses +1 def (which is not important unless you can find specific examples where it saves Titania from death, but you probably won't). Additionally, Rhys can support Shinon for +2 atk at A which allows the former to 2HKO 3-8 halbs with Silencer and +2 str on base (as opposed to +4, which won't happen in Shinon's tier 2 lifetime). The differences in bonuses are hardly significant.

Fair enough.

Neither unit is going to reach, or even come close, to --/20, and neither unit should be the recipient of BEXP because it's utterly pointless to buffer their abysmal combat parameters.

Once again, I said several times that it would be highly unlikely for them to ever reach 20/20, or even to promote. I know you can use a Crown on Rhys, but other characters want it more. Mist gets her own promotion item, but she has to gain 9 levels at around 11 EXP per staff use, unless you abuse a Ward or Recover Staff, which is the opposite of efficiency.

You tend to spend a lot of words on points that are either insignificant, extremely unlikely to happen, completely suboptimal, or a combination of all three.

I need to learn to stop babbling. Either way, I thought if I just laid out the basics, then it would lead to a more structured argument instead of me going in circles about other things.

[nflchamp]

If Mist has access to the 2-E Recover, then Rhys has access to it as well. Mist can maybe reach a near-death target faster with the Recover, but that's highly situational. And that's why I said several times that they would be getting to those levels. Plus, if you're trying to conserve your gold, then you cheap out and buy Heal staffs.

I will agree with you that the amount healed is insignificant. However, Rhys is more effective with a Heal staff, healing 33 HP per use. I doubt any of your characters should need a 33 HP heal, but if you somehow do, then that's who you use. Plus, Mend always seemed a bit overkill for me. 20+MAG always seemed to high.

The entire premise of this argument is that I don't have enough gold to use Mend superfluously. Then you turn around and say Mend is overkill with Rhys. Not to mention the 2-E Recover staff is still existent (and for all intents and purposes, free). You're basically stating that there will never be a difference in healing between the two unless they need to use Physic.

[Anouleth]

If Mist has access to the 2-E Recover, then Rhys has access to it as well. Mist can maybe reach a near-death target faster with the Recover, but that's highly situational. And that's why I said several times that they would be getting to those levels. Plus, if you're trying to conserve your gold, then you cheap out and buy Heal staffs.

If both Mist and Rhys are going to be healing fully with Recover, then they are functionally identical aside from the +1 move. In addition, you need to consider that +1 move is not +1 staff range. Since Mist moves one space further every turn, she will eventually crush Rhys in range with Recover.

And this is not 'our gold'. The Recover is courtesy of the Crimean taxpayer, hand delivered by their most stereotypical peasants. There is no value in leaving the money in the hands of the peace-loving hippies cowards Crimeans when they only have three chapters in which to spend their 20000 gold.

I will agree with you that the amount healed is insignificant. However, Rhys is more effective with a Heal staff, healing 33 HP per use. I doubt any of your characters should need a 33 HP heal, but if you somehow do, then that's who you use. Plus, Mend always seemed a bit overkill for me. 20+MAG always seemed to high.

20 + 13 (Mist's magic) = 33, the same as Rhys' heal. If it's good enough for Rhys, it's good enough for Mist.

Once again, I said several times that it would be highly unlikely for them to ever reach 20/20, or even to promote. I know you can use a Crown on Rhys, but other characters want it more. Mist gets her own promotion item, but she has to gain 9 levels at around 11 EXP per staff use, unless you abuse a Ward or Recover Staff, which is the opposite of efficiency.

If you're conceding that it's not likely (which is an understatement, it's impossible given that you're playing efficiently), why did you bring it up in the first place?

[dondon151]

By all means, make yourself a discussion flowchart in MSPaint, if that's what it takes for you to understand. To simplify this one more time: if you agree that Mia is potentially reducing Hammer uses by virtue of the fact that she exists, then the specific magnitude of your agreement is not relevant to my point.

Of course it's relevant to your point. If I come out of part 3 with 25 Hammer uses instead of 23, due to Super Saver Mia, then that doesn't refute our Law of Conservation of Hammers. If I come out of part 3 with 31 Hammer uses instead of 23, then we can afford to leave Titania unpromoted through 3-10 and go apeshit with 2HKOing generals.

No, I am not. By the way, have you noticed that I'm saying "no, that's not true" and "no, nobody said that" a lot in my replies? This should be a red flag for you.

Actually, I haven't noticed that. It could just be that a ctrl+F of pages 306 and 307 yielded no instances of the strings "nobody said" and "not true."

Anyway, my point about Titania's BEXP is that it duplicates something that we're already basically getting from a Mist support, which has a low opportunity cost at it is, and isn't particularly troublesome to get use out of, especially in 3-8. As a result, it doesn't take much of a need in terms of BEXP, in order to make a Mist support a better deal than a bonus level for Titania. In other words, we are probably better off giving it to someone else, eating our cake and still having it.

I can agree with this reasoning, but I still maintain that this piece of cake that we are simultaneously having and eating is roughly the size of a sugar cube.

Nobody said that you had to budge. I even said it was your prerogative to take that position, AKA it's your right to do so. I was just pointing out your intransigence as a reason why you and I can't really have a discussion on this point.

Then I shall say the same words back at you.

As expected, I am Internet Nostradamus; you didn't consider the implications of what I said outside the confines of your own biases. The example of a Rout was a hypothetical situation aimed at explaining how I look at efficiency. It apparently had all of the penetration power of a water balloon. I am not defending my turn counts, since anyone who is fluent in English can read the thread, the OP especially, and see why they were what they were, since that's sort of the point of the playlog to begin with.

Your defense of your view of efficiency does not really say anything at all, then. There is no point in maintaining that "a strategy that barely Routs by Turn 5 is only a little more efficient than one that Routs on Turn 6 because it missed a single kill" when it applies, apparently, to nothing relevant.

See above statement RE: why we can't have a discussion about this, ever. Not only do you continuously run off the beaten path, but you get frustrated when I don't chase you into the woods, which just makes things worse.

We can't have a discussion about this because our fundamental perceptions of efficiency are different. I couldn't care less; my goal is not getting you to agree with me, but it is to get the tier list to agree with me (at least, to a greater extent than it does now). So you can go ahead and refuse to have a discussion about this, but that's not going to stop me.

[Soren37]

@nflchamp

I wasn't saying you don't have enough gold. I was saying that if you're trying to conserve your resources, then you don't buy a Mend staff every time you can. You buy one or two and use them when you need to.

That was a PEMN thing. 20+MAG when I can do the same thing with a Heal staff and a high MAG character. Plus I don't like to see units get too low on HP.

Mend!Mist is the same as Heal!Rhys. Promoted Physic!Mist has better range than Physic!Rhys, but Physic!Rhys is better than Physic!Mist. Fire Support and Water Support are nice for the Atk boosts, but their Mov is low and their options aren't the greatest. Mist can get Titania, but she has to be promoted to keep up with Titania.

It seems that they are the exact same. A lot of people debate that Rhys > Mist because of the +10 MAG, but they both do their job well, and they do it the way their supposed to. I'll go back on myself and say that they should be slashed, despite the +10 MAG and the +1 Mov and horsey.

Edited August 18, 2010 by Soren37

[Interceptor]

Of course it's relevant to your point. If I come out of part 3 with 25 Hammer uses instead of 23, due to Super Saver Mia, then that doesn't refute our Law of Conservation of Hammers. If I come out of part 3 with 31 Hammer uses instead of 23, then we can afford to leave Titania unpromoted through 3-10 and go apeshit with 2HKOing generals.

By which you mean, it's relevant to your interpretation of my point, that is to say, it's only relevant to you. I didn't lay out specific numbers, I just said that almost everyone in the world is using fewer Hammers than you, since they have access to a Mia and Ike that don't suck, amongst other things. You can quibble about the numbers, but do it with someone who actually raised those numbers in the first place, aka not me.

Worth noting that Titania is only 2RKO'ing with Hammers in the case where you sandbagged her out of a Mist support. This is generally moot.

Actually, I haven't noticed that. It could just be that a ctrl+F of pages 306 and 307 yielded no instances of the strings "nobody said" and "not true."

You know, I had "or something along those lines" written in my post, but I deleted it, with the thinking that you'd understand that I wasn't really quoting something directly. Since you've decided to intentionally be a pedantic twit, I'm moving you below RFoF and closer to kirsche. Updated list:

Genial Conversation tier:

Queen_Elincia

Ether (see, I did not forget you)

Narga

Colonel_M

Anouleth (Dr. Jekyl version)

nflchamp

Two Strange Cats in the Same Room tier:

Red Fox of Fire

Anouleth (Mr. Hyde version)

dondon151

-Cynthia-

kirsche

Frustration tier:

Grandjackal

Soul

Fenrir

Active Hostility tier:

AdjectiveNoun

Ninji

smash_fanatic

I can agree with this reasoning, but I still maintain that this piece of cake that we are simultaneously having and eating is roughly the size of a sugar cube.

I don't necessarily agree, but since it's not in contradiction with my point, I also don't care to dispute it.

Then I shall say the same words back at you.

Duly noted. Except that I'd have no issue with arguing under the premise of optimal efficiency, if I cared about it for tiering purposes.

Your defense of your view of efficiency does not really say anything at all, then. There is no point in maintaining that "a strategy that barely Routs by Turn 5 is only a little more efficient than one that Routs on Turn 6 because it missed a single kill" when it applies, apparently, to nothing relevant.

Quoted to thank you for continuing to make my point about your stubborn inflexibility. The fact that you refer to my explanation as a "defense" says more about your point of view than anything else up there.

We can't have a discussion about this because our fundamental perceptions of efficiency are different. I couldn't care less; my goal is not getting you to agree with me, but it is to get the tier list to agree with me (at least, to a greater extent than it does now). So you can go ahead and refuse to have a discussion about this, but that's not going to stop me.

Nobody is trying to st... you know, never mind. WE ARE ALL UNITED AGAINST YOU, INTERLOPER. WEAPONS FREE!

[Mekkah]

in before many "where am I on this list" posts

I have to say this religion (pope) vs pragmatism (int) debate is pretty interesting to rate even though it doesn't seem to be clear what exactly the point is? Something about Hammer uses and something about a Mist support...

[dondon151]

Well, it's mostly an argument over whether a Mist support or a 1 chapter earlier promotion is more reliable WRT Titania's offense in 3-8, and a bunch of side points spun off from that, none of which Interceptor wants to discuss because they're tangents.

[Zkirsche]

in before many "where am I on this list" posts

In all fairness, it's probably the first tier list to remember me though he got my name wrong, so even though I'm relatively low (though that's to be expected), I'm happy B).

Btw you forgot Richter Renard :P

On topic: I would like to at least ask we take small steps at a time as too much is being discussed at once, so does anyone have any real objections to moving Mist(T) into Mist (N)?

Edited August 18, 2010 by Zwiebel

[Anouleth]

In all fairness, it's probably the first tier list to remember me though he got my name wrong, so even though I'm relatively low (though that's to be expected), I'm happy B).

Btw you forgot Richter Renard :P

On topic: I would like to at least ask we take small steps at a time as too much is being discussed at once, so does anyone have any real objections to moving Mist(T) into Mist (N)?

It's not that too much is being discussed at once, it's that Int/dondon are discussing one thing way too much.

[Fenrir]

Genial Conversation tier:

Queen_Elincia

Ether (see, I did not forget you)

Narga

Colonel_M

Anouleth (Dr. Jekyl version)

nflchamp

Two Strange Cats in the Same Room tier:

Red Fox of Fire

Anouleth (Mr. Hyde version)

dondon151

-Cynthia-

kirsche

Frustration tier:

Grandjackal

Soul

Fenrir

Active Hostility tier:

AdjectiveNoun

Ninji

smash_fanatic

you didn't rank yourself.

int and dondon are discussing to much, int even made this tier list and hurt my self esteem(just kidding narga) Me and GJ are only low b/c of eddy i bet >.>

[Anouleth]

you didn't rank yourself.

int and dondon are discussing to much, int even made this tier list and hurt my self esteem(just kidding narga) Me and GJ are only low b/c of eddy i bet >.>

I don't think that Int needs to rate how enjoyable he finds himself as a conversationalist. In fact, his absence on the list should be seen as positive.

[Fenrir]

I don't think that Int needs to rate how enjoyable he finds himself as a conversationalist. In fact, his absence on the list should be seen as positive.

so we dont have int or naglfar...austrailian discrimination presumably.

[Soren37]

Debater Tier List aside, Mist(T) isn't doing anything more than Mist(N). She gets a +1 Physic range and a small SPD boost, which won't help. The +1 Mov over Rhys is nice, as his her horse, but that's a moot point.

I still think that Rhys and Mist need to be slashed. They're both doing the same thing, even though one has an extra 5 Physic range and can heal more, the other has a better support and a horse.

[Florete]

She gets a +1 Physic range and a small SPD boost, which won't help.

The Spd boost does help, it's just the magnitude of it that's been put into question. Not that I disagree with combining Mist(T) with Mist; I do think it's reasonable enough.

I still think that Rhys and Mist need to be slashed. They're both doing the same thing, even though one has an extra 5 Physic range and can heal more, the other has a better support and a horse.

I'm inclined to agree with this. They both do the same job and both have slight advantages over the other, advantages we can't seem to decide who wins out on. If I were to choose a spot for both to be, I'd probably start right below Brom.

[Junkhead]

Why is Aran still on Upper Middle? Didn't most of us agree that he should be lowered?

[-Cynthia-]

I don't approve of slashing the two, but one right on top of the other works. I also agree with below Brom.