OMG it's a tier list

[Zkirsche]

Wait when was Zihark moved to upper mid? And why is their a tier gap between him and Jill(T)? Better endgame potential, better earlygame with a slightly worse part 3 doesn't seem like a tier gap.

Edited December 20, 2010 by Kevin

[Narga_Rocks]

Wait when was Zihark moved to upper mid? And why is their a tier gap between him and Jill(T)? Better endgame potential, better earlygame with a slightly worse part 3 doesn't seem like a tier gap.

Pretty sure that Jill(T) has better endgame potential and debatable earlygame and a better part 3.

Not sure who you are saying has what of that. Jill(T) flies and ORKOs everything but Generals in part 4. And shouldn't have any issues dying. Jill can actually fly in part 3 so she pretty much cleans house in 3-6 and 3-12. Zihark's a lot more than "slightly worse" there. And in 3-13 she's one of the two best options for KOing Ike quickly. The other being Volug. Neither of which are Zihark.

In part 1, Jill has the Big T drop in 1-6-2, she ignores terrain in 1-6-1 and can easily ORKO pegs. I think maybe even with hand axes, which would help on the javelin guys. Maybe not though and I don't feel like checking. 1-8 Zihark gets to brave sword some bandits and Jill is twiddling her thumbs somewhere not on the map, so he's got that. Not sure what to say about 1-7 since Zihark doesn't actually contribute to completion of the chapter beyond maybe killing something in the way on turn 1. Then there's 1-E where Jill at least can use gaps without move loss.

Jill is leagues better in part 3 and easily better in part 4, though I'm not sure by how much. 4-3 she flies and kills stuff quite well. 4-P again, 9 move.

Edited December 20, 2010 by Narga_Rocks

[Colonel M]

This, again, superposes that there are useful items in 4-3.

Dragonfoe. Baselard if the player plans on taking Volke to Endgame.

Edited December 20, 2010 by Tyranel M

[Soren37]

Dragonfoe. Baselard if the player plans on taking Volke to Endgame.

If Sothe is forced, why not just give him the Baselard? In an efficiency run, Volke's not seeing the Tower, and Sothe will probably still get an SS Knife. You can also find the second Laguz Gem in the desert, which your heron is begging to have.

[Narga_Rocks]

Dragonfoe. Baselard if the player plans on taking Volke to Endgame.

Sothe. Sothe caps tier 2 strength quickly so it is reasonable to assume he did. 24 strength after promotion. 42 atk. 44 with Micaiah support. He does 12 to 14 damage to most Generals. They have 50 to 52 hp. Mia does around 40 if she doesn't pull something off. Other units are like that as well. Since Sothe is free, and multiple units are relying on procing stuff, chances are Sothe is going to be able to KO something on turns 1 and 2. Even if you aren't bringing Volke the Baselard can be useful. It might even make a difference in 4-E-5 if someone misses. You've got 3 bad units (Sothe, Kurth, Sanaki) and need to drop 2 of them for 4-E-5 to let Nasir and Gareth help. Kurth has terrible accuracy and his tide isn't that useful when you are 2 turning. Or even 3 turning. So the remaining slot is between Sothe and Sanaki. Sothe does better on the wardwood guys. Sanaki does better on the cover tile auras. They only need to do something if someone misses, probably, since most units combine to KO auras with just two units. Like Mia + Tibarn both with parity on a cover tile guy. Or whatever. But the chances of missing is far from negligible, and having Sothe with Baselard available to do the rest of the damage should someone miss a hit could help. Even 43 atk (he'll probably have 25 str) does 13 damage to auras. 90 hp, so if two units are capable of dealing 77 damage in 3 hits, and miss the 4th hit that would KO, Sothe can finish it off. It's sad how pathetic that is, but oh well. He's unlikely to reach even 34 spd for Nasir to help. Still, what would be even more pathetic would be if he didn't have the baselard.

Laguz Gem not so much. Even if you are 4 turning each chapter you are probably fine with Laguz Stone unless you want the laguz in question to solo a large portion of a chapter. And you get 5 uses of Giffca's gem anyway. White Gem is money and Daemon Card is only useful on Ike in 3-13 and we are long past that.

Herons just need laguz stones. Battles don't last long enough for the gem to make a difference. And only Resyon even cares. What does Rafiel care with transforming when he's ORKOd regardless by everything but magic (survives only transformed). Leanne gets +1 move. Oh joy.

Dragonfoe does make it a lot easier to clear the path to the boss, though, in 4-E-3.

Edited December 20, 2010 by Narga_Rocks

[Fenrir]

Wait when was Zihark moved to upper mid? And why is their a tier gap between him and Jill(T)? Better endgame potential, better earlygame with a slightly worse part 3 doesn't seem like a tier gap.

yay im glad something finally happened on here, I think Volug should be taken out of top though since i think him and sothe are pretty equal. Gatrie to upper mid, neph outdoes him as do others in that area

[Interceptor]

The impact that Sothe has on part 1 is far greater than the impact that Titania or Mia have over the entire game.

That's a very nice blanket assertion right there. Missing from your post is an argument for Black Knight to Top tier, for having the most consequential performance of any character in the entire game. Nobody touches his impact, other than some scattered Lord cutscene shenanigans.

Give me a break. I understand that Sothe vs. Titania is a pretty gauzy argument to make, since each of them are on each other's respective dream teams whilst basically not creating any availability/deployment conflicts between each other, but that's not cause to completely abdicate responsibility for at least attempting a proper comparison.

Other than that you mostly said things we already know.

From you, we get another variation of this line, again. It's true that there is nothing new under the sun when it comes to Sothe, but the points still bear repeating when they are ignored (repeatedly) by elements of his fan club. The implication of everything that you say on this subject is that Sothe is tiered correctly because he's tiered correctly. Pardon we peons for suggesting that perhaps the facts, while known, haven't been properly taken into account.

Sothe's 3-6 is pretty clutch [...]

I like the word "clutch", because it's both compact and descriptive. So, I don't want to see its impact watered down by mis-use. There is nothing about Sothe's performance in 3-6 that is anything like burying a deep three-pointer at the buzzer. He is a roleplayer at best in this chapter: a useful warm body, adequate at a few things.

Everything else you said is fine, of course.

He is also responsible for getting us Beastfoe, the most important skill in 3-6.

This is important only for 1-4. In other words, because he can find it much faster than anyone else, it's easier to blast through this chapter by having him get it. Chapter 3-6 doesn't enter into it at all, except to establish a reason for us to get the skill in 1-4 in the first place. This tier list would start getting pretty hairy if you had to give people credit for every barely-connected result of their actions. Marcia to Top tier for recruiting Haar, please.

[Junkhead]

I always wondered what can Jill do with Paragon at 3-6 if she can't kill anything but Cats.

[Interceptor]

Jill can kill tigers. Just because she doesn't ORKO them outright doesn't mean that she can't finish off one that either she or some other person wounded first. Obviously she needs a pretty serious weapon, like a maxed Steel Axe forge from 1-Endgame, but such things are available.

Jill's brilliance as a unit in 3-6 stems from the fact that Flight + Canto allows her to easily take any kill that she wants, as well as letting you as a player expose her to exactly as much Enemy Phase activity as she can possibly survive. This results in a boatload of CEXP opportunities for her, even in a fast clear of the chapter.

[WeaponsofMassConstruction]

Durability is somewhat overrated in 3-6. You can match accepted turncounts while playing defensively and waiting for the BK to show up, so even Sothe and Zihark can serve as frontliners. In a recent run, I was still able to get 11 turns despite barely using Volug, if at all, and raising goddamned Laura and Eddie since with a little help and correct AI manipulation, you can get your partner units to stall out the whole right side.

And in other news, now that Jill is getting a def transfer, this should put her above Nolan, since, as I recall, the main debate between them was the cost of a robe. Now, with 24 hp/15 def to 14 Nolan's 32 hp/11 def, 27 att is needed to 2HKO both.

[Interceptor]

It's not about getting to ~11 turns or so in 3-6. In using Z/Sothe as shields and letting the BK do most of the work, you are not training people properly. You're immediately making 3-12 and 3-13 harder, and you lose up to two potential excellent units for Part 4.

The point of playing aggressively in 3-6 and making the most out of the kills isn't to get a low turn count, it's an investment for making the rest of the game easier.

Edited December 20, 2010 by Interceptor

[WeaponsofMassConstruction]

I haven't gotten to 3-12 yet to see how fast I can do that, and that is probably going to be the most questionable chapter left, as 3-13 is going to be Sleep/Purge/Purge, and should be enough great units to handle Part 4, but seeing as you were slowing down in Part 1 in the first place to invest in later chapters, performance then is getting out of the hole.

[Interceptor]

I slowed down in Part 1 out of an abundance of caution, because back then there wasn't much data in terms of what would be necessary going forward, and how easy/hard it was to train people. In other words, I didn't want to screw myself over.

I think it's pretty safe to say that the trail is extremely well-blazed at this point, to say the least, after all of the other playthroughs there were done. I'm positive that if it were necessary, I could shave plenty more turns out of Part 1 without needlessly imperiling the Part 3 performance and Part 4 potential of Jill/Nolan. Colonel M's run alone is proof enough of that.

[Zkirsche]

Pretty sure that Jill(T) has better endgame potential and debatable earlygame and a better part 3.

Trueblades are the second best endgame class, losing out to Marksmen just because of the double bow.

Not sure who you are saying has what of that. Jill(T) flies and ORKOs everything but Generals in part 4. And shouldn't have any issues dying. Jill can actually fly in part 3 so she pretty much cleans house in 3-6 and 3-12. Zihark's a lot more than "slightly worse" there. And in 3-13 she's one of the two best options for KOing Ike quickly. The other being Volug. Neither of which are Zihark.

Flying doesn't necessarily clean house, as she's not rushing over the terrain just to get herself killed.

And how many levels do you expect her to get? Cba to look it all up now, but i can't imagine it's a small number to be able to kill all that.

In part 1, Jill has the Big T drop in 1-6-2, she ignores terrain in 1-6-1 and can easily ORKO pegs. I think maybe even with hand axes, which would help on the javelin guys. Maybe not though and I don't feel like checking. 1-8 Zihark gets to brave sword some bandits and Jill is twiddling her thumbs somewhere not on the map, so he's got that. Not sure what to say about 1-7 since Zihark doesn't actually contribute to completion of the chapter beyond maybe killing something in the way on turn 1. Then there's 1-E where Jill at least can use gaps without move loss.

Zihark also ORKO's them all with a wind edge and has the more reliable hit, too. And her durability still isn't wtfamazing so she's not soloing maps still. Realistically, Jill(T) isn't doing that much more than Jill(N) at this stage.

And the 1-E point is very minor, especially when you consider Zihark's superier statistics.

Jill is leagues better in part 3 and easily better in part 4, though I'm not sure by how much. 4-3 she flies and kills stuff quite well. 4-P again, 9 move.

Flying does not make you "leagues better" in part 3.

[dondon151]

That's a very nice blanket assertion right there. Missing from your post is an argument for Black Knight to Top tier, for having the most consequential performance of any character in the entire game. Nobody touches his impact, other than some scattered Lord cutscene shenanigans.

Actually, I'm pretty sure Ike, Micaiah, Laura, Lucia, Geoffrey, and Ranulf have the most consequential performance of any character in the entire game, because you can't win maps without them. You know as well as I do why we make exceptions in extraordinary circumstances.

Give me a break. I understand that Sothe vs. Titania is a pretty gauzy argument to make, since each of them are on each other's respective dream teams whilst basically not creating any availability/deployment conflicts between each other, but that's not cause to completely abdicate responsibility for at least attempting a proper comparison.

We've been there, done that. The kind of conclusion that one arrives at solely depends on philosophy, not on actual analysis of the evidence.

This is important only for 1-4. In other words, because he can find it much faster than anyone else, it's easier to blast through this chapter by having him get it. Chapter 3-6 doesn't enter into it at all, except to establish a reason for us to get the skill in 1-4 in the first place. This tier list would start getting pretty hairy if you had to give people credit for every barely-connected result of their actions. Marcia to Top tier for recruiting Haar, please.

"Responsible" doesn't equate to full credit. Sothe gets partial credit for Arms Scrolls and Master Seals (the latter being crucial to bringing unit performance in part 3 up to par). Or, as you put it, the value of Sothe's item finding is approximately equal to the number of turns saved compared to if we had some 10 skl tier 1 DB person repeatedly wait on a tile every turn.

Flying does not make you "leagues better" in part 3.

It does in 3-12 and 3-13. Pretty useful in 3-6 to cut down untransformed or weakened laguz that are behind the main line.

Edited December 20, 2010 by dondon151

[Narga_Rocks]

Trueblades are the second best endgame class, losing out to Marksmen just because of the double bow.

All of part 4 is important. Jill is great in 4-P and 4-3. Better than Zihark due to more move. Her 4-3 compared to his 4-3/4/5 as well. Then in 4-E-2 and 4-E-3 neither of them are doing anything anyway. More move again in 4-E-4, 4-E-5 she has more damage assuming Nasir. 4-E-1 she's good for taking on those status guys since her move is again important. I'm not seeing Zihark > her in 4-E anyway, and for all of part 4 she's >>> him.

And I'm not seeing how Trueblades are such a great endgame class. Zihark struggles to 3HKO, by the way, so he can't even always pull a Mia and grab Adept for ~90% KO rate (2 shots each at Adept, Crit'ing, Astra). He needs to crit or Astra.

They lack the ability to hammertime the Generals, they lack the str to 2HKO with forges. They lack move in 4-E-4 (and Zihark can't be shoved by guys like Sothe or Micaiah so unlike Mia who can be shoved by nearly anything to alleviate move issues in 4-E-4, Zihark can't.) Trueblades only actual advantage over other classes comes in 4-E-5 where they can double without Nasir or needing a brave. Mia/Zihark/Ed still need a guy like Tibarn if they want to two round a cover tile aura with Parity, though, since even Ed with capped str has only 52 atk with Vague Katti. 22 x 4 = 88 and falls short.

I'm really not seeing them as the second best endgame class, much as I love them.

Flying doesn't necessarily clean house, as she's not rushing over the terrain just to get herself killed.

And how many levels do you expect her to get? Cba to look it all up now, but i can't imagine it's a small number to be able to kill all that.

It's doable. Only for her, too.

here's the deal. We pretty much accept that you need to pump as much exp into as few units as possible to make anything useful come out of part 3 DB. A bunch of 20/10 guys aren't going to help you much in part 4. Jill with Paragon in 3-6 is unparalleled in the amount of exp she can get, and it helps that she can fly down cliffs and take on large chunks of 3-12 if you get her to 20/13 or so after 3-6. Interceptor got her even higher. The idea is that funneling exp into two units in 3-6 is superior to attempting to spread it over 4 or 5 because you'll have 4 or 5 useless characters in part 4, or you get to add 2 units to your list of useful GMs and royals. Much more useful to us. Jill and Nolan and Volug are pretty much the best three options since you can likely funnel the most exp into them. Choose 2. Flight + Canto allows Jill to expose herself every single turn to exactly how many enemies she can survive, and in addition lets you kill something previously weakened and still have choices where to position herself. Non-canto units can't do both. Either kill or position. And she's not treading through the water with effectively two move which limits what she can even attack. And partway through the chapter you'll find she reaches 3HKO from tigers and gets that much more exp on enemy phases.

Zihark also ORKO's them all with a wind edge and has the more reliable hit, too. And her durability still isn't wtfamazing so she's not soloing maps still. Realistically, Jill(T) isn't doing that much more than Jill(N) at this stage.

Zihark has, what, 17 hit on her? 10 more skill but 3 less luck. Only with her transfer and him being Z(N) that's only 13 hit. Wind edges have 10 worse hit. That's a 3 hit difference. Not that big. Flight and terrain ignoring is better than that. Plus, she can fly up and kill a javelin guy when it appears (where Z can't reach) and use an iron axe forge and then counter the 1 range peg on enemy phase. Now she'll crush his hit rate.

Jill(T) doubles what Jill(N) doesn't (the javelin pegs). Also has more str. And I don't see a better candidate for the 1-4 robe anywhere so I'm not exactly worried about her durability (or his, just his move).

Flying does not make you "leagues better" in part 3.

That wasn't my only argument for part 3, though. Flight + Canto opens up worlds of exp not available to other units. At least, not in 11 or 12 turns. Her potential for 3-12 and 3-13 are much greater than most other units due to that experience. And flight still helps a fair amount in 3-12. 3-13 it's not so much the flight (only one gap to cross on the way to Ike) but the canto and the much better durability. Again, it's not just flight, it's her durability as well.

[Florete]

Trueblades are the second best endgame class, losing out to Marksmen just because of the double bow.

And why is that? As far as Beorc classes alone, I'd say Dragonlord (F) and Silver Knight (F) (both of them) are easily better than Trueblabe and Marksmen for having more move and Canto on top of good SS weapons (more so in the Silver Knights case). The only significant advantage Trueblade pulls is Aura doubling, one map, and Marksmen gets 3 range, which is cool, but not game-breaking. As far as viability in a tier setting goes, the only one of those former classes you'll have is Dragonlord (F), aka Jill. A trained Jill for Endgame, especially with the right support (I like putting her with Volug, but maybe that's just me), I'd say is the best Beorc Endgame classes.

And then there's Laguz Royals.

[WeaponsofMassConstruction]

I slowed down in Part 1 out of an abundance of caution, because back then there wasn't much data in terms of what would be necessary going forward, and how easy/hard it was to train people. In other words, I didn't want to screw myself over.

I think it's pretty safe to say that the trail is extremely well-blazed at this point, to say the least, after all of the other playthroughs there were done. I'm positive that if it were necessary, I could shave plenty more turns out of Part 1 without needlessly imperiling the Part 3 performance and Part 4 potential of Jill/Nolan. Colonel M's run alone is proof enough of that.

I still think there could be a run without Jill/Nolan focus as a sort of control to which to compare this too, which I might do sometime. I'm doubtful as to how great Jill and Nolan impact part 4, since they are giants in a land of other giants and endgame is mostly a royalfest. I know dondon's playthrough exists, but that's kind of pushing it.

Also speaking of all these playthroughs, it appears Volug's part 3 is not as significant as it once was. Thoughts on this?

[Narga_Rocks]

Didn't most people just choose not to use Volug in the interest of seeing what others can do? Though, if Jill and Nolan can achieve similar stuff to Volug and they are that much lower than he is perhaps he's not in the right place. Still, how many have actually just used Volug? dondon is probably the only one that used Volug much more than Jill and Nolan (though partly as a result of Nolan and Jill not gaining useful stats, I would think, it being 0% growths).

[Florete]

It could also mean people like Jill and Nolan need to go up.

[Narga_Rocks]

Or they could meet somewhere in between. There's lots of ways it could go.

As for Volug in 3-6, if people want to be aggressive and push out towards the enemy, doesn't Volug only have 1 move in the river while transformed? 2 move on the relevant foot units that aren't Sothe or Micaiah (or Meg, though she's 1 instead of 3) is annoying enough. 1 makes it hard for Volug to get anywhere and makes it impossible for him to move + attack whatever he already countered on enemy phase whenever he's completely in the river. He either has to attack something else, or simply not move.

Still, probably not too much of a problem. Just felt if people are suddenly being more aggressive then it could be an issue sometimes.

[Zkirsche]

All of part 4 is important. Jill is great in 4-P and 4-3. Better than Zihark due to more move. Her 4-3 compared to his 4-3/4/5 as well. Then in 4-E-2 and 4-E-3 neither of them are doing anything anyway. More move again in 4-E-4, 4-E-5 she has more damage assuming Nasir. 4-E-1 she's good for taking on those status guys since her move is again important. I'm not seeing Zihark > her in 4-E anyway, and for all of part 4 she's >>> him.

This isn't FE9 where all our best units have 9 mov so if you don't have 9 mov you're getting left behind with not much to do. Fact is, this is FE10, where Zihark's 7 mov is still very useful. Superb doubling, incredible proc chances (the same chances that got Mia to where she is, except with a built in earth support for potential earth x earth madness) etc.

Better than junk like Nephenee.

And I'm not seeing how Trueblades are such a great endgame class. Zihark struggles to 3HKO, by the way, so he can't even always pull a Mia and grab Adept for ~90% KO rate (2 shots each at Adept, Crit'ing, Astra). He needs to crit or Astra.

He struggles to 3HKO for the short time he's second tier.

I agree with the rest, though.

here's the deal. We pretty much accept that you need to pump as much exp into as few units as possible to make anything useful come out of part 3 DB. A bunch of 20/10 guys aren't going to help you much in part 4. Jill with Paragon in 3-6 is unparalleled in the amount of exp she can get, and it helps that she can fly down cliffs and take on large chunks of 3-12 if you get her to 20/13 or so after 3-6. Interceptor got her even higher. The idea is that funneling exp into two units in 3-6 is superior to attempting to spread it over 4 or 5 because you'll have 4 or 5 useless characters in part 4, or you get to add 2 units to your list of useful GMs and royals. Much more useful to us. Jill and Nolan and Volug are pretty much the best three options since you can likely funnel the most exp into them. Choose 2. Flight + Canto allows Jill to expose herself every single turn to exactly how many enemies she can survive, and in addition lets you kill something previously weakened and still have choices where to position herself. Non-canto units can't do both. Either kill or position. And she's not treading through the water with effectively two move which limits what she can even attack. And partway through the chapter you'll find she reaches 3HKO from tigers and gets that much more exp on enemy phases.

Which translates to what kind of level for both Jill(T) and Nolan at the end of 3-6 and at the end of part 4.

Zihark has, what, 17 hit on her? 10 more skill but 3 less luck. Only with her transfer and him being Z(N) that's only 13 hit. Wind edges have 10 worse hit. That's a 3 hit difference. Not that big. Flight and terrain ignoring is better than that. Plus, she can fly up and kill a javelin guy when it appears (where Z can't reach) and use an iron axe forge and then counter the 1 range peg on enemy phase. Now she'll crush his hit rate.

Well, remember both Zihark's are below her, so I'm arguing both up, really.

Jill(T) doubles what Jill(N) doesn't (the javelin pegs). Also has more str. And I don't see a better candidate for the 1-4 robe anywhere so I'm not exactly worried about her durability (or his, just his move).

Nolan has these same mov problems though and is only marginally better in statistics (better durability and availability vs better doubling.)

That wasn't my only argument for part 3, though. Flight + Canto opens up worlds of exp not available to other units.

I wouldn't say worlds. There's always enemies to kill for even a unit like Zihark with his measly 7 mov and it's not like Jill can face enemies en masse (36 HP/19 def is solidly 2HKO'ed by the most common enemies on the map) or double the faster cats (or maybe even the slower ones), so don't exaggerate this exp gain.

[Interceptor]

Actually, I'm pretty sure Ike, Micaiah, Laura, Lucia, Geoffrey, and Ranulf have the most consequential performance of any character in the entire game, because you can't win maps without them. You know as well as I do why we make exceptions in extraordinary circumstances.

Naturally, which is why I said "other than some scattered Lord cutscene shenanigans". What exactly did you think that I was referring to when I said that? Ike/Yune only counts for a single shenanigan. Far be it from me to stop you from self-pwning yourself by parroting back the same thing that I already said, but there you go.

The point, nestled too deeply in a bed of subtlety, was that Sothe himself resembles an extraordinary circumstance. This goes back to, say, Eddie's performance in 1-P.

We've been there, done that. The kind of conclusion that one arrives at solely depends on philosophy, not on actual analysis of the evidence.

Then let me respond to the philosophical argument that led to your conclusion, after quoting it below:

Well, it does appear that there's absolutely nothing there. Should I divide by zero?

"Responsible" doesn't equate to full credit. Sothe gets partial credit for Arms Scrolls and Master Seals (the latter being crucial to bringing unit performance in part 3 up to par). Or, as you put it, the value of Sothe's item finding is approximately equal to the number of turns saved compared to if we had some 10 skl tier 1 DB person repeatedly wait on a tile every turn.

Anouleth was making reference to 3-6, not to 1-4. If you're going to agree with me, at least have the good manners to not seem as if you're in opposition to my point.

[Narga_Rocks]

This goes back to, say, Eddie's performance in 1-P.

You mean the ~14 turns he probably saves?

[Interceptor]

Didn't most people just choose not to use Volug in the interest of seeing what others can do?

I can't speak for anyone but myself, but I chose not to use Volug after weighing his advantages/disadvantages against the likes of Jill, Nolan, and Zihark. His Part 4 is a little underwhelming, after all, aka where I'd be shorthanded to begin with.

You mean the ~14 turns he probably saves?

No, I meant the effect that his boyish good looks have on the Bandits.