OMG it's a tier list

[Radiant Dragon]

Exactly! But it does make sense to give Nolan all our resources and use Zihark as well.

Yet that has no relevance in a debate about Zihark and Jill. You can't say Zihark is better than Jill just because you didn't use Jill.

The cost of Jill taking those resources away from Nolan is considered, but it doesn't mean that she can't get them.

Edited July 21, 2011 by Radiant Kitty

[Anouleth]

Is it "a pathetic attempt" in a Jill vs Zihark debate to point out that while Jill ends up better and may have an overall superior contribution if both units are trained and given valuable resources, Zihark is more valuable if neither are given many resources thanks to his better start?

I don't see how that situation is relevant at all. You are arguing that if Gatrie and Boyd are denied valuable resources, then we should ignore their performance after 3-1 because "they're both so bad it's not worth talking about". Certainly, Zihark might be better than Jill in the situation you describe, but that's not because you're just completely ignoring their performance later on in the game.

Of course not. They seem equally likely. Bexp can be used if either fall short of their 4-1 benchmarks - it is relatively abundant at this juncture.

Assuming a level 13 Boyd against a level 14/1 Gatrie in 3-4, Boyd's exp gain will be leaps and bounds ahead of Gatrie. Gatrie gets 10 EXP per kill. Boyd gets 22 exp per kill. Boyd also has more mobility with which to engage enemies.

An interesting rule of thumb for experience gain, in every Fire Emblem, is that if two units are given 46 kills against the same level enemies, then the level gap between them halves. Now, Gatrie is going to need significantly more than 46 kills to go from level 14/1 to 14/7: but let's say he and Boyd both take 46 kills in the remainder of Part 3. Then the level gap between Boyd and Gatrie, which was previously 8, would halve: so Boyd would end up at 20/3.

So I say it is much easier to get Boyd to 20/1 than it is to get Gatrie to 14/7: the number of kills needed to get Boyd to level 20/1 would only get Gatrie to about 14/5.

Crowned Gatrie has offensive leads over Speedwings Boyd (T) until Boyd promotes. Fact. The leads are modest if Gatrie gets crowned in 3-8 but more significant if Gatrie gets crowned in 3-4.

Boyd (T) - Level 13, Speedwings

53 HP, 27.25 Str, 24.25 Skl, 24.25 Spd, 15 Lck, 17.5 Def, 8.5 Res

Gatrie - Level 14/1

49 HP, 29 Str, 21.8 Skl, 24.4 Spd, 16.2 Lck, 28.4 Def, 16.4 Res

Saying "Fact" does not make it a fact. Where is Gatrie's offensive lead? The 0.15 speed lead (that doesn't even exist with proper statistical averages)? The 1.75 strength lead that is largely cancelled out by Boyd's affinity? The ability to OHKO Paladins with a Horseslayer?

[Zanarkin]

Tell that to Jhen Mohran, who opened him/herself up to this type of discussion with this post and subsequent arguments.

I did mention within that post how Boyd has more movement. I also said Boyd has better chances to double without using the Crown everyone wants (i guess it depends on each players situation but it can be pretty hard to decide). You decided to focus on his offense to which i repsonded and then left it to Fenrir cause i got bored. Boyd is better on the long run. Gatrie only has early to mid part 3 of being useful, then he is just average compared to Boyd.

[Fenrir]

Since you've stopped making replies, i'm guessing you've given up? Boyd(t)>gatrie(n) and possibly Gatrie(t)

So it isn't realistic to use our resources on Volug and/or Nolan instead of Jill and Zihark? And it isn't realistic to use our resources on Haar, Titania, and Oscar instead of Gatrie and Boyd (T)? I understand that this tier list has been making strong resource assumptions for a while now, but it's a bad habit I'd like to break, if possible.

LOL

lol, your kidding me right? Go look into the item distribution topic, i don't have a link now, but i'll look for it. Also, Nolan or Volug can take the dracoshield while Jill or Edward takes the energy drop. This list makes assumptions on items for good reason, people have put in a lot of time deciding where these should go.

You simply can't argue that naesala is better, no 2 range and neither of them are going to die. Go do a playthrough properly using Jill and tell me naesala is better. just try.

[aku chi]

Yet that has no relevance in a debate about Zihark and Jill. You can't say Zihark is better than Jill just because you didn't use Jill.

I don't see why it isn't relevant. Zihark has more versatility with respect to resource distribution. If you deck Zihark out with skills, the best weapons, and some Bexp for good measure, he can be very valuable in the DB chapters. If you want to send the Brave Sword, his Adept, and Resolve to the GMs and not give him any stat boosters or Bexp, you can still put him to positive use. Zihark's versatility in this respect helps out the rest of your team. How is it fair to ignore it?

An interesting rule of thumb for experience gain, in every Fire Emblem, is that if two units are given 46 kills against the same level enemies, then the level gap between them halves. Now, Gatrie is going to need significantly more than 46 kills to go from level 14/1 to 14/7: but let's say he and Boyd both take 46 kills in the remainder of Part 3. Then the level gap between Boyd and Gatrie, which was previously 8, would halve: so Boyd would end up at 20/3.

So I say it is much easier to get Boyd to 20/1 than it is to get Gatrie to 14/7: the number of kills needed to get Boyd to level 20/1 would only get Gatrie to about 14/5.

Interesting. I'm bought in. If Boyd (T) naturally gets to 20/1 by 4-1, Gatrie (T) might need a level of Bexp to get to 28 AS. If Gatrie (T) can get to level 6 or 7 by 4-1, Boyd (T) is likely to be 20/3 or so.

Boyd (T) - Level 13, Speedwings

53 HP, 27.25 Str, 24.25 Skl, 24.25 Spd, 15 Lck, 17.5 Def, 8.5 Res

Gatrie - Level 14/1

49 HP, 29 Str, 21.8 Skl, 24.4 Spd, 16.2 Lck, 28.4 Def, 16.4 Res

Saying "Fact" does not make it a fact. Where is Gatrie's offensive lead? The 0.15 speed lead (that doesn't even exist with proper statistical averages)? The 1.75 strength lead that is largely cancelled out by Boyd's affinity? The ability to OHKO Paladins with a Horseslayer?

Granted: the offensive lead is small.

I did mention within that post how Boyd has more movement. I also said Boyd has better chances to double without using the Crown everyone wants (i guess it depends on each players situation but it can be pretty hard to decide). You decided to focus on his offense to which i repsonded and then left it to Fenrir cause i got bored. Boyd is better on the long run. Gatrie only has early to mid part 3 of being useful, then he is just average compared to Boyd.

I decided to focus on the points you mentioned which were incorrect. It has been made quite clear in the ensuing debate that Gatrie and Boyd (T) have very similar offense throughout Part 3 (so long as Gatrie gets a Master Crown by 3-8 at the latest and Boyd gets something (preferably a Speedwings) to help his Speed). So with Gatrie's significantly better durability (most relevant early in Part 3) up against Boyd (T)'s superior Part 4 and movement advantage, I'm inclined to agree that Boyd (T) > Gatrie (N) and might even have a case against Gatrie (T).

[Radiant Dragon]

I don't see why it isn't relevant. Zihark has more versatility with respect to resource distribution. If you deck Zihark out with skills, the best weapons, and some Bexp for good measure, he can be very valuable in the DB chapters. If you want to send the Brave Sword, his Adept, and Resolve to the GMs and not give him any stat boosters or Bexp, you can still put him to positive use. Zihark's versatility in this respect helps out the rest of your team. How is it fair to ignore it?

What positive use is a base Zihark with no skills or forges going to have in Part 3?

[Fenrir]

I don't see why it isn't relevant. Zihark has more versatility with respect to resource distribution. If you deck Zihark out with skills, the best weapons, and some Bexp for good measure, he can be very valuable in the DB chapters. If you want to send the Brave Sword, his Adept, and Resolve to the GMs and not give him any stat boosters or Bexp, you can still put him to positive use. Zihark's versatility in this respect helps out the rest of your team. How is it fair to ignore it?

I decided to focus on the points you mentioned which were incorrect. It has been made quite clear in the ensuing debate that Gatrie and Boyd (T) have very similar offense throughout Part 3 (so long as Gatrie gets a Master Crown by 3-8 at the latest and Boyd gets something (preferably a Speedwings) to help his Speed). So with Gatrie's significantly better durability (most relevant early in Part 3) up against Boyd (T)'s superior Part 4 and movement advantage, I'm inclined to agree that Boyd (T) > Gatrie (N) and might even have a case against Gatrie (T).

Just for arguments sake...

Zihark is going to be very very fragile against the Laguz, 2HKO'd IIRC. So I do not see him making these contributions. Jill on the other hand may need some resources but after some good EXP on 3-6 she should be awesome the rest of the game. (not to mention she contributes quite nicely in P1 with a drop)

Yeah, basically Gatrie's gonna be way better early with boyd doing better late. In which i believe he can more than make up for earlygame. The movement advantage is ultimately the tie-breaker for me.

Boyd reminds me of a poorly oiled machine, he's powerful as hell. But you need his gears to start running smooth, the quicker the better. But you know your getting a powerhouse when his speed gets up.

Edited July 21, 2011 by Fenrir

[-Cynthia-]

Gatrie(T) has better offense than Boyd in 3-P and 3-1.

Additionally, are we entitling Boyd(T) to a Speedwing in 3-2 now? That's an interesting choice, since Haar and Titania don't have extra speed than normal.

[aku chi]

You simply can't argue that naesala is better, no 2 range and neither of them are going to die.

I certainly can, but your suggestion that Jill is better than Naesala in 4-P and 4-3 isn't quite as absurd as I first thought.

Base Naesala has 47 Atk. For Jill to reach that with a Silver Axe forge, she needs to get an Energy Drop and be at around 20/9/9 or equivalent. Those are generous, but perhaps possible levels for Jill in 4-3. Of course, Naesala might have gained a level or two in 4-P, which might make his Atk 49, which Jill can't match until level 14. In any case, 47-49 Atk only 2HKOs some of the enemies in 4-3 and Naesala has a considerably better mastery activation rate (66.4% compared with 43.7% in 2 hits), letting Naesala pull off more ORKOs. Naesala, with his 42 Speed, obviously doubles everything. Jill isn't quite as fortunate, with her ~32 Spd at level 9 she misses doubling all of the Swordmasters. If Jill's level isn't quite so high or her Speed procs are lagging a little, she could also miss doubling some of the faster Warriors and Snipers who require 31 AS to double.

If you're thinking about 2-range being a big advantage for Jill, think again. Jill can ORKO the Bishops and Sages at range (of which there are a grand total of 7), but Jill needs 45 Atk to 2HKO even the most feeble enemy Sniper, something that she just can't pull off with a 1-2 range weapon. And Jill is far from invulnerable in 4-3. A few enemies 3HKO her and many more 4 or 5HKO at decent hit rates. Naesala needs to shy around the crossbows but is otherwise more durable than Jill - he has an especially high evasion lead. Though both may need to be healed on occasion, so this isn't a major win for Naesala.

I'll assume a generous 20/9/6 for Jill In 4-P. Jill has no silver forge opportunity, and she misses a bunch of 2HKOs with a Steel forge, so her performance here all comes down to whether or not she gets a Horseslayer. If she does, she can ORKO all of the Paladins at 1 range, like Naesala. Naesala can ORKO the Warriors and Halberdier (though he needs to avoid the crossbow), Jill cannot. Neither can 2HKO the Generals, so Naesala has the advantage again via mastery activation. Jill's 2 range is even weaker in this chapter: she can only 2HKO a single enemy (a Bishop) with a Hand Axe forge. Jill is less durable here, but Naesala needs to be careful around the Bow Paladins, so I'm not chalking up a win on either side for durability.

[Anouleth]

I would be amazed to see a 20/9/9 Jill, since you can't actually promote Jill until she reaches level 20/10...

[aku chi]

I would be amazed to see a 20/9/9 Jill, since you can't actually promote Jill until she reaches level 20/10...

LOL, whoops. Let's change that to 19/10/X, then...Or 19-y/10+y/X where y is [0, 5]. The important thing is that Jill reaches her tier 2 Spd cap on average after 14 levels, at which point it's prudent to crown her.

[Lord Raven]

Just for arguments sake...

Zihark is going to be very very fragile against the Laguz, 2HKO'd IIRC. So I do not see him making these contributions. Jill on the other hand may need some resources but after some good EXP on 3-6 she should be awesome the rest of the game. (not to mention she contributes quite nicely in P1 with a drop)

Volug A support actually destroyed Laguz when I played hard mode. Both on 3-6 and 3-13. It may not increase his concrete durability but his overall durability is bolstered by his Avoid as a result of the Earth support.

fyi, Volug had Resolve/Beastfoe and Zihark had Adept and something else that I don't remember.

[Anouleth]

LOL, whoops. Let's change that to 19/10/X, then...Or 19-y/10+y/X where y is [0, 5]. The important thing is that Jill reaches her tier 2 Spd cap on average after 14 levels, at which point it's prudent to crown her.

Why? If Jill is going on Micaiah route (and she is), the 27 speed she has immediately after a crown is sufficient to double all Paladins in 4-P. It seems more prudent to stay in tier 2 so she can help her strength. Rather than have her promote really early.

[aku chi]

Why? If Jill is going on Micaiah route (and she is), the 27 speed she has immediately after a crown is sufficient to double all Paladins in 4-P. It seems more prudent to stay in tier 2 so she can help her strength. Rather than have her promote really early.

A little Bexp in tier 2 to boost her Str would certainly be helpful, but there are Spd-related reasons to promote Jill sooner rather than later. Jill needs to be tier 3 to double Hawks and Cats in 3-13, so crowning her before then is generally a good idea. Jill also needs to worry about Spd for 4-3 and beyond. 30 AS, which requires 5 levels in tier 3 on average, is essential to double most enemies in 4-3 and 31 AS (another couple levels) would be nice. Of course, Jill wants 34 AS by 4-E-5 (she gets it at level 12 on average). She can be Bexp'd if she comes up a little short, but it would be nicer to our team if we didn't have to.

Edited July 22, 2011 by aku chi

[Fenrir]

Base Naesala has 47 Atk. For Jill to reach that with a Silver Axe forge, she needs to get an Energy Drop and be at around 20/9/9 or equivalent. Those are generous, but perhaps possible levels for Jill in 4-3. Of course, Naesala might have gained a level or two in 4-P, which might make his Atk 49, which Jill can't match until level 14. In any case, 47-49 Atk only 2HKOs some of the enemies in 4-3 and Naesala has a considerably better mastery activation rate (66.4% compared with 43.7% in 2 hits), letting Naesala pull off more ORKOs. Naesala, with his 42 Speed, obviously doubles everything. Jill isn't quite as fortunate, with her ~32 Spd at level 9 she misses doubling all of the Swordmasters. If Jill's level isn't quite so high or her Speed procs are lagging a little, she could also miss doubling some of the faster Warriors and Snipers who require 31 AS to double.

If you're thinking about 2-range being a big advantage for Jill, think again. Jill can ORKO the Bishops and Sages at range (of which there are a grand total of 7), but Jill needs 45 Atk to 2HKO even the most feeble enemy Sniper, something that she just can't pull off with a 1-2 range weapon. And Jill is far from invulnerable in 4-3. A few enemies 3HKO her and many more 4 or 5HKO at decent hit rates. Naesala needs to shy around the crossbows but is otherwise more durable than Jill - he has an especially high evasion lead. Though both may need to be healed on occasion, so this isn't a major win for Naesala.

Wait, why is jill getting such an early promotion? She should be 20/1 or something around that at 3-6, gain a good amount of levels there. Then on 3-12 she can go to work. I dont know why 20/10 is necessery.

Volug A support actually destroyed Laguz when I played hard mode. Both on 3-6 and 3-13. It may not increase his concrete durability but his overall durability is bolstered by his Avoid as a result of the Earth support.

fyi, Volug had Resolve/Beastfoe and Zihark had Adept and something else that I don't remember.

I've used volugXzihark a few times, but it's very hard to get an A by 3-6 unless your going out of your way.

[Lord Raven]

If it's a B by 3-6, it's better than what most units can do unless they support with Zihark and get an A (which is when THEY give +2 Atk and +30 Evade). Them standing right next to each other with +30 evade and Volug having some shit like Resolve and Beastfoe can destroy things -- even untransformed, Resolve and Beastfoe is ridiculous for Volug's evade and offense. Zihark will get 2HKO'd but he actually has pretty good odds to dodge and heal every turn.

[Anouleth]

If it's a B by 3-6, it's better than what most units can do unless they support with Zihark and get an A (which is when THEY give +2 Atk and +30 Evade). Them standing right next to each other with +30 evade and Volug having some shit like Resolve and Beastfoe can destroy things -- even untransformed, Resolve and Beastfoe is ridiculous for Volug's evade and offense.

Untransformed Resolve Volug gets OHKOed by Tigers (Cats are a few points off) and only has 81 avoid so enemies have about a 60% chance to hit him. So I don't think untransformed Volug is going to be doing anything except stuffing Olivi Grass in his mouth and hiding behind trees.

I personally think that Resolve is kind of wasted on Volug since he already has enough speed to double every enemy in 3-6. Resolve could easily go on a character who has accuracy/doubling issues, such as Jill or Sothe or even Aran (Resolve on Aran lets him double all Tigers, a few Cats, and stops Cats from doubling him).

Zihark will get 2HKO'd but he actually has pretty good odds to dodge and heal every turn.

25% chance to get hit isn't "pretty good odds".

[Radiant Dragon]

Untransformed Resolve Volug gets OHKOed by Tigers (Cats are a few points off) and only has 81 avoid so enemies have about a 60% chance to hit him. So I don't think untransformed Volug is going to be doing anything except stuffing Olivi Grass in his mouth and hiding behind trees.

He probably meant Halfshifted.

25% chance to get hit isn't "pretty good odds".

It depends how many attacks he has to take each turn, really.

Edited July 23, 2011 by Radiant Kitty

[nflchamp]

It depends how many attacks he has to take each turn, really.

You really mean, "Zihark is okay so long as he basically isn't doing anything more than plugging a hole."

Which is great and all, but I can get Leonardo to do the same thing with less chance of counter-critting and killing himself.

[Junkhead]

25% chance to get hit isn't "pretty good odds".

Are you joking. That's amazing Avo.

[Vicious Sal]

Are you joking. That's amazing Avo.

Especially if it's displayed, which makes True Hit 12.75 %.

[Anouleth]

Especially if it's displayed, which makes True Hit 12.75 %.

It's not, it's true hit. The displayed hit is somewhere between 30 and 40 hit. Giving Zihark approximately an 8% chance to die on any given turn where two enemies attack him.

[Dark Sage]

Untransformed Resolve Volug gets OHKOed by Tigers (Cats are a few points off) and only has 81 avoid so enemies have about a 60% chance to hit him. So I don't think untransformed Volug is going to be doing anything except stuffing Olivi Grass in his mouth and hiding behind trees.

I personally think that Resolve is kind of wasted on Volug since he already has enough speed to double every enemy in 3-6. Resolve could easily go on a character who has accuracy/doubling issues, such as Jill or Sothe or even Aran (Resolve on Aran lets him double all Tigers, a few Cats, and stops Cats from doubling him).

Well actually, it requires Aran having 24 speed with Resolve in order to double the slowest cats, which requires him having 16 speed. He has 16 speed at 20/3, but Aran's arguably not going into Part 3 at 20/3 (well maybe if smash was playing he would).

[Zanarkin]

It's not, it's true hit. The displayed hit is somewhere between 30 and 40 hit. Giving Zihark approximately an 8% chance to die on any given turn where two enemies attack him.

~8% chance to die is bad?

[Florete]

~8% chance to die is bad?

It is a non-negligible chance of death. That is generally bad, yes, especially if you want Zihark to be fighting the whole time, in which he faces this 8% turn after turn. What do you think his chance of death over the entire map stacks up to?