OMG it's a tier list

[Rewjeo]

You could try pointing your wiimote at a light. My friend's sensor bar died, and for a while we just played games like this because we could point the wiimote at the lights to select stuff on the menu and after that the game didn't require motioin controls.

[PKL]

Does the tier list really take into account clearing 4-E-5 in 1-2 turns? Really that seems like a nifty trick rather than something should be relevant. I don't know, it just doesn't sit right with me tbh... I'll drop if the majority of you feel that a low turn count clear for the light chapter is conducive to a good run.

BTW Kurthnaga ends up helping you out tremendously in 4-E-3 (which is arguably the hardest chapter in the game imo. He doesn't even need that much BEXP to get going, just enough to get a few attack procs in order to sufficiently damage the dragons in that chapter.) The way I see it is:

-Kurth is forced

-Kurth helps you out in 4-E-3 regardless of whether you levelled up him up or not (he can be used as a make-shit roadblock)

-Night Tide is acceptable in 4-E-1 and 4-E-2

I feel that he's on a whole other level than the likes of Oliver, Fiona, etc who can NEVER contribute without negatively impacting the team (ie taking up a character slot by using them.)

PS: I'm loving this forum's perspective on tier lists, you guys are awesome.

Well, 4-E-3 gets 1 turned very easily. Remember that in endgame you have a bunch of royal laguz and you can even bless a wyrmslayer with someone. You also have rescue and rafiel. Most endgame maps are 1 turned pretty easily actually. Kurth never contributes anything to an efficient and fast clear of the maps hes in, hence why hes in bottom tier.

[Chiki]

The main problem with using Beastfoe Nolan is that he's extremely difficult to train on hard mode (assuming efficiency, of course). He becomes almost useless after 1-5. Awful durability, poor AS, etc. Even Edward does better in 1-4.

Without Beastfoe Nolan, I'd say it's impossible to 8-turn 3-6 with Paragon Jill.

This is the main issue I am raising now.

but it is true that she's taking quite a bit from the team if we're doing about what our friend was doing, and Beastfoe kind of slowing down the CEXP gain (slightly).

No one else needs those items, though.

Also, giving Nolan those items is asinine when giving Jill those items instead could help her clear 3-12 and 3-13 more effectively.

Edited June 8, 2012 by Jushiro

[MacLovin]

The main problem with using Beastfoe Nolan is that he's extremely difficult to train on hard mode (assuming efficiency, of course). He becomes almost useless after 1-5. Awful durability, poor AS, etc. Even Edward does better in 1-4.

Without Beastfoe Nolan, I'd say it's impossible to 8-turn 3-6 with Paragon Jill.

This is the main issue I am raising now.

No one else needs those items, though.

Robe and Draco can go to your main DB/DBs.

Same with Drop and etc.

[Chiki]

Robe and Draco can go to your main DB/DBs.

Same with Drop and etc.

What do you even mean by "main DB/DBs"?

Secondly, giving Jill those resources guarantees a 13 turn clear of Part 3 DBs.

[aku chi]

No one else needs [Leonardo's Dracoshield, the 1-2 Energy Drop, the 1-4 Seraph Robe, a Master Seal, and Rafiel's Seraph Robe], though.

Kindly remove the word "need" from your debating lexicon. The aforementioned resources are certainly valuable when given to non-Jill recipients. Nolan is an excellent candidate for Leonardo's Dracoshield - improving his durability from 1-1 and beyond and making it possible for him to endure two S-Strike Tiger attacks in 3-6. The 1-2 Energy Drop is great for Volug. It improves his halfshifted Atk by 3, letting him grab more 2HKOs and even the occasional Mage OHKO. That same Energy Drop provides +4 Atk in 3-6 and beyond, which Volug needs to 2HKO tougher enemies. The 1-4 Seraph Robe is valuable on Nolan or Aran (if trained), albeit not to the same extent as Jill. While we have the opportunity to get a few Master Seals, not all of them are efficient to obtain. Any tier 1 unit we train can benefit from a Master Seal (Nolan, and perhaps Aran or Edward). Ilyana also benefits from a Master Seal. And if we can actually get Leonardo to level 10 (not at all trivial), he also benefits from a Master Seal. Rafiel's Seraph Robe is clearly the least valuable resource of the bunch, but even it can be beneficial when given to units other than Jill (it can even be ferried to the GM's for Titania or Oscar if the DB doesn't need it).

For some of these resources in certain scenarios, Jill may be the optimal recipient. But that does not mean that giving those resources to Jill is costless. We pay an opportunity cost equal to the value of those resources going to the next best recipient. That opportunity cost cannot be discounted when evaluating Jill's performance.

Edited June 8, 2012 by aku chi

[Chiki]

Kindly remove the word "need" from your debating lexicon. The aforementioned resources are certainly valuable when given to non-Jill recipients. Nolan is an excellent candidate for Leonardo's Dracoshield - improving his durability from 1-1 and beyond and making it possible for him to endure two S-Strike Tiger attacks in 3-6. The 1-2 Energy Drop is great for Volug. It improves his halfshifted Atk by 3, letting him grab more 2HKOs and even the occasional Mage OHKO. That same Energy Drop provides +4 Atk in 3-6 and beyond, which Volug needs to 2HKO tougher enemies. The 1-4 Seraph Robe is valuable on Nolan or Aran (if trained), albeit not to the same extent as Jill. While we have the opportunity to get a few Master Seals, not all of them are efficient to obtain. Any tier 1 unit we train can benefit from a Master Seal (Nolan, and perhaps Aran or Edward). Ilyana also benefits from a Master Seal. And if we can actually get Leonardo to level 10 (not at all trivial), he also benefits from a Master Seal. Rafiel's Seraph Robe is clearly the least valuable resource of the bunch, but even it can be beneficial when given to units other than Jill (it can even be ferried to the GM's for Titania or Oscar if the DB doesn't need it).

For some of these resources in certain scenarios, Jill may be the optimal recipient. But that does not mean that giving those resources to Jill is costless. We pay an opportunity cost equal to the value of those resources going to the next best recipient. That opportunity cost cannot be discounted when evaluating Jill's performance.

Jill is easily the best recipient of the Master Seal because it allows her to carry Tauroneo around, making a 6-turn of 1-6 easily possible. I think it's pretty much undeniable that Jill would be the best person to receive that.

I think giving Jill resources and such depends on the definition of efficiency here--do you mean the lowest possible turncount? If so, then giving anyone but Jill resources is asinine.

[aku chi]

Jill is easily the best recipient of the Master Seal because it allows her to carry Tauroneo around, making a 6-turn of 1-6 easily possible. I think it's pretty much undeniable that Jill would be the best person to receive that.

I think giving Jill resources and such depends on the definition of efficiency here--do you mean the lowest possible turncount? If so, then giving anyone but Jill resources is asinine.

Kindly re-read the following paragraph. And then research opportunity cost, if needed.

For some of these resources in certain scenarios, Jill may be the optimal recipient. But that does not mean that giving those resources to Jill is costless. We pay an opportunity cost equal to the value of those resources going to the next best recipient. That opportunity cost cannot be discounted when evaluating Jill's performance.

Edited June 8, 2012 by aku chi

[Chiki]

Kindly re-read the following paragraph. And then research opportunity cost, if needed.

Doesn't that argument go both ways? The opportunity cost against Jill cannot be discounted when evaluating Nolan's, Volug's etc. performances as well. So the only thing we should really be thinking about is how to get the lowest turn count.

Also, I'm still wondering about the definition of efficiency here.

[aku chi]

Doesn't that argument go both ways? The opportunity cost against Jill cannot be discounted when evaluating Nolan's, Volug's etc. performances as well.

Of course. If we consider Nolan's performance when he receives Leonardo's Dracoshield, we must also consider the opportunity cost of that resource being given to Jill or Volug or Aran (whomever makes the (next) best use of it). But Jill's optimal resource bundle is unusually valuable. If Jill performs best when given all of those resources I listed before, Jill should be penalized for the opportunity costs associated with all of those resources. Contrast this with the Black Knight, who requires absolutely zero resources to provide his optimal utility.

So the only thing we should really be thinking about is how to get the lowest turn count.

Considering that this is an efficiency tier list, we should be considering how valuable each unit is in an efficiency playthrough. How well a unit can contribute to an efficincy playthrough when given their optimal resource bundle is an important part of that consideration. Also important is the opportunity costs associated with that unit being given their optimal resource bundle.

Also, I'm still wondering about the definition of efficiency here.

Completing the game swiftly and reliably.

[Chiki]

Of course. If we consider Nolan's performance when he receives Leonardo's Dracoshield, we must also consider the opportunity cost of that resource being given to Jill or Volug or Aran (whomever makes the (next) best use of it). But Jill's optimal resource bundle is unusually valuable. If Jill performs best when given all of those resources I listed before, Jill should be penalized for the opportunity costs associated with all of those resources. Contrast this with the Black Knight, who requires absolutely zero resources to provide his optimal utility.

Jill can basically solo Part 3 DB by herself with these resources, and get the lowest possible turncount so is there really any opportunity cost (other than some difficulty early on, due to not, for example, giving the Dracoshield to Nolan) towards giving Jill everything? The opportunity cost actually seems very minor.

Jill contributes the most towards efficiency out of anyone in the DB. I think this is pretty much inexorable. So, assuming that we give Nolan and Volug resources as well, such as the Energy Drop, Dracoshield and Seraph Robe, this contributes negatively to efficiency and Nolan and Volug should be the ones who are penalized for the opportunity costs associated with all of those resources.

Opportunity cost is actually an argument for Jill rather than against Jill.. Because giving those items to Nolan and Volug is a waste for chapters like 3-12 and 3-13 and Part 4.

Edited June 8, 2012 by Aeine

[aku chi]

(*sigh* I often wish that an introduction to economics were a mandatory course in general highschool education.)

Consider a theoretical unit called Jill2. Jill2 may be recruited in place of Jill in 1-6's base for no cost. She has is identical to Jill except that she has +2 Def, +2 Str, +7 HP, and can promote to tier 2 at any time with no cost. Jill2 receives Jill's transfers, if any exist. However, Jill2 cannot be given Leonardo's Dracoshield, the 1-2 Energy Drop, the 1-4 Seraph Robe, or a Master Seal. Basically, Jill2 is just like a Jill that has received the aforementioned resources, except that those resources remain to be used on other units.

Is Jill2 more valuable than Jill? Of course she is. She is just as good, except that now you have a bunch of valuable resources that can be given to other units. In fact, the opportunity cost of Jill taking the aforementioned resources is precisely how much more valuable Jill2 is than Jill.

[Chiki]

(*sigh* I often wish that an introduction to economics were a mandatory course in general highschool education.)

Consider a theoretical unit called Jill2. Jill2 may be recruited in place of Jill in 1-6's base for no cost. She has is identical to Jill except that she has +2 Def, +2 Str, +7 HP, and can promote to tier 2 at any time with no cost. Jill2 receives Jill's transfers, if any exist. However, Jill2 cannot be given Leonardo's Dracoshield, the 1-2 Energy Drop, the 1-4 Seraph Robe, or a Master Seal. Basically, Jill2 is just like a Jill that has received the aforementioned resources, except that those resources remain to be used on other units.

Is Jill2 more valuable than Jill? Of course she is. She is just as good, except that now you have a bunch of valuable resources that can be given to other units. In fact, the opportunity cost of Jill taking the aforementioned resources is precisely how much more valuable Jill2 is than Jill.

I understand what opportunity cost is perfectly, but you're avoiding my point. I'm saying that:

1. The opportunity cost is minor, because I have proven with my playthrough that it's perfectly possible to get the lowest possible turncounts without giving Nolan, Volug, etc. any resources at all. The cost only exists because of reliability. Volug with an Energy Drop has an easier time (just easier, not impossible) 4-turning 1-8. Nolan has an easier time taking hits with the Dracoshield. But they do nothing at all to shorten the turncount.

2. Giving Nolan, Volug etc. these resources decreases your turncounts in exchange for reliability. They should be the ones penalized even more than Jill should be.

I'm not saying that Jill shouldn't be penalized--it's why she should be in high tier, even below Volug, Titania and Ike. I'm saying that the penalties ought to be minimal because the cost associated with giving Jill these resources is almost trivial. Yes, Nolan can reliably take attacks, and Volug can get more kills, but they do nothing at all to cut your turncounts.

Attempting to avoid these two points and instead lecturing me on an economic term in a thinly-veiled attempt to make me look stupid doesn't make you right.

Edited June 8, 2012 by Aeine

[Colonel M]

(*sigh* I often wish that an introduction to economics were a mandatory course in general highschool education.)

There usually is. At least, I had general economics in High School.

[Anouleth]

Jill is easily the best recipient of the Master Seal because it allows her to carry Tauroneo around, making a 6-turn of 1-6 easily possible.

Jill can carry Tauroneo at base. She doesn't need the Master Seal to carry him. The Master Seal does not allow her to carry him.

Also, it's not really true that it makes a 6-turn of 1-6 easy. I consider very little in this game to be easy. The only reason that it seems easy is because we've picked the entire game apart and know exactly the optimum way to play it. Also that implies that even without Jill, the strategy is possible but more difficult.

Also if you want a low turn count tier list, I can go make one. There's no need to ruin this one.

Jill can basically solo Part 3 DB by herself with these resources, and get the lowest possible turncount so is there really any opportunity cost (other than some difficulty early on, due to not, for example, giving the Dracoshield to Nolan) towards giving Jill everything? The opportunity cost actually seems very minor.

If Jill can basically solo Part 3 DB by herself with those resources, I can only imagine that Volug and Nolan would also be able to solo Part 3 since they generally have better stats in every imaginable area, so yes, there is an opportunity cost. Jill is not a laguz, she does not get more bonuses out of stat boosters than other units, she just happens to have more move and is able to engage enemies at a faster pace.

Jill contributes the most towards efficiency out of anyone in the DB. I think this is pretty much inexorable.

What definition of efficiency? Because if it's low turn counts, Edward has her beat.

Edited June 8, 2012 by Anouleth

[Dark Sage]

What definition of efficiency? Because if it's low turn counts, Edward has her beat.

Don't forget the BK, Ike, Laura, Ranulf, and Micaiah. They save an infinite amount of turns!

[Florete]

On Gareth vs Kurthnaga: Night Tide is virtually useless. With all the powerhouses you have at this point of the game, it's extremely unlikely to come to any use, and Kurthnaga doesn't even have anything aside from that. No, not even 4-E-3, since there are few situations where blocking Dragons actually helps in any way (and his poor move doesn't help). I once used him in a draft and even there the only uses he had were a couple Shoves and keeping Rafiel alive against Ashera.

Gareth is not very good himself, but Blood Tide has noticeable and significant stat boosts that can very often either cut a turn or two or simply add reliability with +10 Hit. Although he's not at all accurate, he also has a chance to hit pretty hard himself. A 2-3 turn clear of 4-E-5 is not necessarily "assumed," but when one can help it while another can't, advantage goes to the former.

[Chiki]

Jill can carry Tauroneo at base. She doesn't need the Master Seal to carry him. The Master Seal does not allow her to carry him.

Also, it's not really true that it makes a 6-turn of 1-6 easy. I consider very little in this game to be easy. The only reason that it seems easy is because we've picked the entire game apart and know exactly the optimum way to play it. Also that implies that even without Jill, the strategy is possible but more difficult.

Sorry I said she can't carry him. I was supposed to say she can't retreat far enough to safety without 9 move.

It's impossible to get 179 turns without Jill, if that is what you're suggesting?

Also if you want a low turn count tier list, I can go make one. There's no need to ruin this one.

If you want to.

If Jill can basically solo Part 3 DB by herself with those resources, I can only imagine that Volug and Nolan would also be able to solo Part 3 since they generally have better stats in every imaginable area, so yes, there is an opportunity cost. Jill is not a laguz, she does not get more bonuses out of stat boosters than other units, she just happens to have more move and is able to engage enemies at a faster pace.

Uh...... which is exactly why she should get those stat boosters. Because she can make the most of them and contribute the most to a low turn count.

What definition of efficiency? Because if it's low turn counts, Edward has her beat.

I think you know nothing about this game at all in terms of LTCs. I can only assume you've never done a low turn count playthrough. Only for 1-P, 1-2 and 1-4.

Jill cuts turns from 1-6, 1-7 (my 4-turn strategy), 1-8, 1-E, 3-6, 3-12, 3-13, 4-P, 4-3 and 4-E-1.

Edited June 8, 2012 by Aeine

[Dark Sage]

Don't remember. Think you could find it?

Oscar(T) might be slightly underrated.

Just looking at base stats here, he's pretty comparable to someone like Shinon.

Oscar(T) 38 HP 22 Str 24 Skl 23 Spd 17 Def 13 Res

Shinon 43 HP 21 Str 28 Skl 24 Spd 20 Def 14 Res

I will grant that Shinon's extra 1 Spd(there are a lot of 20 AS enemies the first 2 maps) and crit give him slightly better offense, but it's much closer than normal Oscar. Add in that Oscar has Canto, +2 Mov, and better enemy phase offense and they seem like they should be closer.

Oscar's 24 AS Tier 2 cap does get in the way a little, but 24 AS should double most non SM enemies until 3-7 where can take the Dawn Brigade's Master Crown. 26 AS then lasts Oscar through the rest of part 3, and 65% Spd growth lets him keep up with enemies. Shinon's better in 4-E due to Double Bow and a better Tier 3 Spd cap, but I'm not seeing a tier's worth of difference between the two.

There's no 'might' about it. Oscar (T) has always been far too low and should be near the top of High tier. For example, what does Mia have against him in early Part 3? She's better against Generals and Swordmasters. Oscar wins mostly everything else, as well as movement on top of that. What does she have against him in late Part 3? She doesn't take a Crown and is still better against SMs and Generals, he still wins everything else. Mia wins Part 4, certainly, but Oscar is definitely better in Part 3, which is the lion's share of their lifespan (and Oscar (T) is okay in Part 4 as well if you can get him to double). Oscar (T) should either be just above Mia or just below her.

I know the quote from Cynthia is Oscar (T) vs Shinon, but I think she really nailed down some important points. Namely, that Oscar (T) has an excellent Part 3, his speed cap isn't that big an issue, and he can even keep up his doubling in part 4 due to his 65% speed growth.

I think the main obstacle Oscar (T) has to overcome is the opportunity cost of taking a Master Crown, but he could always take a crown that Heather steals in 3-7. And his mobility combined with his more reliable ORKOs against enemies that they both double gives him the edge I think.

I will provide a more detailed comparison later, after I pack some stuff up and eat lunch.

[Anouleth]

If you want to.

I don't, but if it keeps stupid arguments out of this list, then I might.

Uh...... which is exactly why she should get those stat boosters. Because she can make the most of them and contribute the most to a low turn count.

That's not what you said, though, you said that the opportunity cost is very minor, which I don't really believe. Am I supposed to believe that Energy Drop/Dracoshield/Seraph Robe don't have any effect on turncount unless we give them to Jill?

I think you know nothing about this game at all in terms of LTCs. I can only assume you've never done a low turn count playthrough. Only for 1-P, 1-2 and 1-4.

Jill cuts turns from 1-6, 1-7 (my 4-turn strategy), 1-8, 1-E, 3-6, 3-12, 3-13, 4-P, 4-3 and 4-E-1.

Jill does not cut turns in some of those instances. She doesn't cut turns in 1-8, for instance, and there are probably alternative strategies that don't need her for later chapters too. If she is cutting turns, she's usually only cutting 1 or 2, or in order to cut those turns she has to be used in conjunction with many other units. Edward saves multiple turns in 1-P, though, and requires no resources to do it, and does it single-handedly, and there is no comparable alternative.

EDIT: I am told by people who actually keep track of this bullshit that Edward saves 14 turns in 1-P, which is quite an impressive figure for Jill to overcome. Not to mention that he apparently saves a turn in 1-2 and 1-4 as well.

Edited June 8, 2012 by Anouleth

[Chiki]

That's not what you said, though, you said that the opportunity cost is very minor, which I don't really believe. Am I supposed to believe that Energy Drop/Dracoshield/Seraph Robe don't have any effect on turncount unless we give them to Jill?

http://serenesforest...showtopic=33035

I have the proof. If you want to prove me wrong though, feel free by playing the game and attempting the playthrough yourself.

Jill does not cut turns in some of those instances. She doesn't cut turns in 1-8, for instance, and there are probably alternative strategies that don't need her for later chapters too. If she is cutting turns, she's usually only cutting 1 or 2, or in order to cut those turns she has to be used in conjunction with many other units. Edward saves multiple turns in 1-P, though, and requires no resources to do it, and does it single-handedly, and there is no comparable alternative.

Leonardo and Micaiah are helpful for 1-P as well, as I'm sure you know, so no, it's not exactly a solo.

Secondly, Jill CAN basically solo with transfers and resources the same way Edward does. In my 8-turn 3-6 strategy, Jill Beastfoed everything to death while the partner units got a few kills in the east, with the help of ZIhark, Volug and Sothe. Jill soloed 3-12 with the exception of pegasus knights. Jill soloed 3-13 with no one's help at all. Jill CAN take most of 4-P by herself with forged Hand Axes.

Jill is as useful as Edward is in 3-12 and 3-13.. the lowest possible in 3-13 is 4 turns without her if I recall correctly.

Secondly, it's not as simple as you suggest. We would have to train Nolan in an LTC playthrough to get lower turns on these chapters, and training Nolan would take A LOT of turns. So Jill can beat that 14 turn benchmark easily. It's not like Volug, Sothe and ZIhark are enough in an LTC playthrough.

You have no idea how useful a second flier with a Hand Axe is.

I agree Edward should go high up in a hypothetical tier list, but not as high as Jill.

Edited June 8, 2012 by Aeine

[aku chi]

That's not what you said, though, you said that the opportunity cost is very minor, which I don't really believe. Am I supposed to believe that Energy Drop/Dracoshield/Seraph Robe don't have any effect on turncount unless we give them to Jill?

http://serenesforest...showtopic=33035

I have the proof. If you want to prove me wrong though, feel free by playing the game and attempting the playthrough yourself.

This just demonstrates that you're still missing the point. We're not talking about what Jill can do with those resources. We're talking about what other units could do if we didn't give them to Jill. The opportunity cost of giving the resources to Jill. What Volug, Nolan, and whomever else can do with those resources that they cannot do without.

[Chiki]

This just demonstrates that you're still missing the point. We're not talking about what Jill can do with those resources. We're talking about what other units could do if we didn't give them to Jill. The opportunity cost of giving the resources to Jill. What Volug, Nolan, and whomever else can do with those resources that they cannot do without.

And I said the cost is minor . I think you're the one not reading my posts. Here, let me bold the important bits for you:

I understand what opportunity cost is perfectly, but you're avoiding my point. I'm saying that:

1. The opportunity cost is minor, because I have proven with my playthrough that it's perfectly possible to get the lowest possible turncounts without giving Nolan, Volug, etc. any resources at all. The cost only exists because of reliability. Volug with an Energy Drop has an easier time (just easier, not impossible) 4-turning 1-8. Nolan has an easier time taking hits with the Dracoshield. But they do nothing at all to shorten the turncount.

2. Giving Nolan, Volug etc. these resources decreases your turncounts in exchange for reliability. They should be the ones penalized even more than Jill should be.

I'm not saying that Jill shouldn't be penalized--it's why she should be in high tier, even below Volug, Titania and Ike. I'm saying that the penalties ought to be minimal because the cost associated with giving Jill these resources is almost trivial. Yes, Nolan can reliably take attacks, and Volug can get more kills, but they do nothing at all to cut your turncounts.

Attempting to avoid these two points and instead lecturing me on an economic term in a thinly-veiled attempt to make me look stupid doesn't make you right.

[Anouleth]

I have the proof. If you want to prove me wrong though, feel free by playing the game and attempting the playthrough yourself.

What does this playthrough have to do with my statement at all? I am claiming that using the Energy Drop and Dracoshield and Seraph Robe on people other than Jill saves turns in comparison to not using them at all. Thus, using them still has an opportunity cost. If you give all those resources to Jill and save turns with her, that doesn't mean anything since those resources can still save turns in other locations.

Leonardo and Micaiah are helpful for 1-P as well, as I'm sure you know, so no, it's not exactly a solo.

Edward leans far less on Leonardo and Micaiah than Jill does on the people she needs to help her save turns. Jill does not save turns single-handedly ever in Part 1, she is only capable of saving turns because she is dropping people who can actually do thing such as Tauroneo, or Micaiah, or the Black Knight. Jill is highly reliant on Sothe to steal items for her to make those turncount savings such as the Energy Drop, the Master Seal, and the first Seraph Robe.

Secondly, Jill CAN solo with transfers and resources. In my 8-turn 3-6 strategy, Jill Beastfoed everything to death while the partner units got a few kills in the east, with the help of ZIhark, Volug and Sothe. Jill soloed 3-12 with the exception of pegasus knights. Jill soloed 3-13 with no one's help at all. Jill CAN take most of 4-P by herself with forged Hand Axes.

I know that she can do that. Point is that so can quite a lot of other people, if more slowly. Nobody is going to solo 1-P unless they are called Edward. It is not just slower. It is impossible.

Jill is as useful as Edward is in 3-12 and 3-13.. the lowest possible in 3-13 is 4 turns if I recall correctly.

4 minus 3 is how many turns? Because it's smaller than 14. A lot smaller.

Jill is not as useful as Edward. You have many units that can do a similar thing to Jill. The same is not true in 1-P.

Also Jill was only so useful in 3-13 since you rigged a Stun proc with her. Which brings me onto another issue with Jill, namely that she's RNG reliant in order to make some of her turncount savings since she relies on growths. So Jill is not going to save all those turns in every playthrough.

Secondly, it's not as simple as you suggest. We would have to train Nolan in an LTC playthrough to get lower turns on these chapters, and training Nolan would take A LOT of turns. So Jill can beat that 14 turn benchmark easily.

You do not have to train Nolan at all. On those chapters where Jill is present, in comparison to dondon's 0% growth LP, you only saved:

1-7 1

3-6 1

3-12 5

3-13 2

4-P 2

4-3 4

4-E-1 2

A total of 16 turns, and certainly not all down to Jill being trained, especially the Part 4 turncounts. Let's say she still saves a turn in 4-3, and of course dondon used Jill to save turns here and there in Part 1 and 3-6, so she saves approximately:

1-6 2

1-7 1

1-E 1

3-6 2

3-12 5

3-13 2

4-3 1

14 turns, exactly the same as Edward in 1-P! Huh. How about that. Then apparently he saves turns in 1-2 and 1-4.

You have no idea how useful a second flier with a Hand Axe is.

When I played through Part 4 with one Axe wielding flier, I only got one less turn than you, so I would say it is exactly 1/16th as useful as Edward.

The opportunity cost is minor, because I have proven with my playthrough that it's perfectly possible to get the lowest possible turncounts without giving Nolan, Volug, etc. any resources at all.

This just doesn't make any sense. Ordinarily I dislike Aku chi's habit of constantly banging on about opportunity costs, but you really seem to misunderstand.

Consider an alternative universe where Jill doesn't exist. In this world, all the resources that Jill uses to save turns still do exist. Those resources still save turns. That cost has to be taken into account. If Jill saves 2 turns with the Energy Drop and Nolan saves 1, really Jill is only saving 1 turn because even if she didn't exist we'd still be able to use the Energy Drop.

Edited June 8, 2012 by Anouleth

[dondon151]

I'm not entirely sure what the point of this Edward argument is. We all know that the scope of his single chapter contributions is mostly ignored just so that 1-P alone doesn't skyrocket him to the top of the tier list.

Also it really doesn't cost turns at all to get Nolan to a usable point for 3-6.

Edited June 8, 2012 by dondon151