OMG it's a tier list

[Anouleth]

I remember doing both a no transfers efficiency and a transfers efficiency playthrough. I was unable to 4-turn 3-8 and 3-10 without transfers Boyd. I suspect it would have been impossible to get low turns on 4-1 and 4-4 without him too.

The point is that Boyd with transfers is far better than Boyd without. Probably not better than Marcia though.

Boyd T is pretty good, but I was under the impression that it was possible (if pretty difficult) to get Haar to 32 strength, in which case he could have 4-turned 3-8. Or 31 strength, with a +2 coin instead of a +1 coin. It depends, I guess, on what coins you have available.

[Chiki]

I used both Haar and Boyd for 3-8.

[Anouleth]

I used both Haar and Boyd for 3-8.

No, I mean in the sense that you have to have someone stand in front of all those Generals in the south and kill them all on EP (except Septimus who is p. much impossible to ORKO on EP), that's what Boyd does that's very useful and Haar can theoretically do the same. You certainly don't need both, since I didn't use Haar for my 4 turn.

[aku chi]

Nephenee (N) < Marcia (T) seems an easy case to make. (I'll drop the (N) and (T) from here on out - know that they are implicit.)

Marcia is useful in 2-P (one of only 3 combat units, and arguably more valuable than Nealuchi - Haar is great but joins late) and 2-3 (perfect unit to take out the Horseslayer Halberdier).

Nephenee is useful in 2-1 (one of only two combat units) but not so great in 2-2.

They both have an opportunity to gain 3 levels in their first two chapters before they meet for the first time in 2-E. Nephenee has an opportunity to utilize the CRK Bexp pool - and really needs to to be viable in Part 3 and beyond. We want Nephenee to have 24 AS in 3-3, and she's likely to get it with 2 Bexp level-ups. Marcia wants to reach level 10 by 3-9 so that she can be crowned, so we'll give her the same amount of Bexp:

Nephenee - Level 6 (2 w Bexp) - 34 HP, 16 Str, 23 Skl, 24 Spd, 16 Def, 16 Res

Marcia - Level 10 (2 w Bexp) - 38 HP, 19 Str, 20 Skl, 26 Spd, 17 Def, 16 Res

Aside from Marcia's +3 Str and +2 Spd lead, they're pretty similar. Oh, and Marcia has +2 mov, canto, and flies - which enables her to help us retrieve Nullify, the Energy Drop, or the Dracoshield, unlike Nephenee.

So Marcia has the edge in Part 2. But now we come to the most difficult part of the comparison. Nephenee joins the Greil Mercenaries and is mediocre for seven chapters (3-2, 3-3, 3-4, 3-5, 3-7, 3-8, and 3-10). Marcia has only one chapter 3-9, where she can be the most valuable unit.

Nephenee, thanks to our Bexp, can consistently double most Warriors, Halberdiers, and Snipers along with all Generals, Sages, Paladins, and Dracomasters. However, her Str is abysmal such that even with a Steel Lance forge she fails to 3HKO most Warriors, Halberdiers, and Snipers. Nephenee can ORKO Sages at 1-range, but needs to wait until 3-8 and a Javelin forge for the ability to ORKO them at 1-2 range. In addition to Nephenee's mediocre combat, her mediocre movement prevents her from making notable contributions in 3-2, 3-4, and 3-5. Nephenee can help torch some tents in 3-3 (like Boyd or Soren). 3-7 is self-improvement. Nephenee can contribute only a small amount to the routs in 3-8 and 3-10.

On the other hand, Marcia only has one chapter: 3-9. But if we give her the 3-9 Master Crown, she will be the most valuable unit on the map. Her flight allows her to take the northern rout, which is shorter and less dense with enemies. She can double and deal good damage to all of the enemies. Her durability is above average and quite serviceable when coupled with her ability to canto out of the range of dangerous foes. Note that I'm not relying on a 23 Str Marcia for this argument. It's not necessary to show that Marcia (T) > Nephenee (N) and I would prefer to withhold judgement on whether its efficient to give Marcia all of our Part 2 Bexp in the hopes that she procs a low-growth stat.

I don't pretend to be able to make a clear judgement on whether Nephenee's mediocre seven chapters is more valuable than Marcia's great one chapter. I'll err on the side of Nephenee for this argument and suppose that Nephenee's contributions in their unique Part 3 chapters is slightly greater.

Marcia and Nephenee share 3-11 and 3-E. I don't want to delve into too much detail, but I think it's clear to see that Marcia has a notable advantage in 3-11 due to her superior movement and early promotion. Marcia's advantages are less important in 3-E, but they exist. To summarize, at this point Marcia has a slight Part 2 advantage, Nephenee has a slight Part 3 advantage in their unshared availability, and Marcia has an advantage in their shared Part 3 availability.

Let me set the stage for Part 4. Marcia's status is easy. We crowned her at level 10 and she gained 2 levels in 3-9, 3-11, and 3-E. Nephenee, I'll generously assume, gains an average of 1 level per chapter in Part 3. She starts in 3-2 at level 6, so she can reach level 15 after 3-E. However, Nephenee is likely to cap Skl, Spd, and Res by level 11 - or after 3-7. So we will Bexp-slowplay her last four levels - boosting her HP, Str, Lck, and Def. The we'll use the 3-11 (or 3-12) Master Crown on Nephenee. This Master Crown is slightly less valuable than the 3-9 Master Crown that Marcia received, but with Nephenee's Bexp-slowplay we'll call it even. Here's where they stand entering Part 4:

Nephenee - Level 15/1 - 43.25 HP, 23.75 Str, 28 Skl, 29 Spd, 23.75 Def, 22 Res

Marcia - Level 10/3 - 43.4 HP, 22.6 Str, 22.8 Skl, 29.3 Spd, 20.7 Def, 20.7 Res

Nephenee has a small durability advantage and a tiny Str advantage. Their growths are nearly identical (identical Spd and Def, Nephenee has +0.05 Str). Nephenee has had more time to build up a support (but Wind affinity blows). Marcia has +2 mov, canto, and flight.

Marcia is a most helpful with the Silver Army. In 4-P, she can ORKO Paladins with the Horseslayer. In 4-3, Marcia is unlikely to 2HKO most foes even with a Silver Lance forge (though she can 2HKO Dracomasters with a Wyrmslayer), but she can 3HKO and has high Spd and so makes a good Adept candidate. She can also team up with the other Seraph Knights for triangle attacks. Nephenee is probably most helpful with the Greil Army, but this also exposes her mediocre Str. Nephenee is likely to fall short of 2HKOing any non-Sage foes, but she too makes a fine Adept candidate with prevalent 3HKOs and some crit to boot. Ultimately, Marcia is more valuable.

To close, 4-E is a another victory for Marcia. Marcia's superior movement is critical in 4-E-1. Both are borderline on being able to 2HKO Sages at 1-2 range. Both have an easy time reaching 34 AS by 4-E-3, but Marcia has the huge edge thanks to her ability to wield the Wyrmslayer. Nephenee caps Spd at 34, but Marcia can get the 36 AS needed to double Sephiran and Ashera. Marcia's canto makes it easier for her to receive boosts from the dragons in 4-E-3 and 4-E-5.

In summary, Marcia (T) pretty much dominates Nephenee (N).

Should Nephenee (N) move down or Marcia (T) move up? I propose Nephenee (N) down. Oscar (N) > Nephenee (N) is a much easier argument than Marcia (T) > Oscar (N). Plus, Boyd (N) and Nephenee (N) are so similar that it is fitting that they should be adjacent. Boyd's Str advantage almost completely negates Nephenee's ability to double. Nephenee has the slightly better Part 4, and so deserves to be above Boyd (assuming, of course, that Boyd (N) doesn't get 2 Speedwings or something silly).

[nflchamp]

Marcia is a most helpful with the Silver Army. In 4-P, she can ORKO Paladins with the Horseslayer. In 4-3, Marcia is unlikely to 2HKO most foes even with a Silver Lance forge (though she can 2HKO Dracomasters with a Wyrmslayer), but she can 3HKO and has high Spd and so makes a good Adept candidate. She can also team up with the other Seraph Knights for triangle attacks. Nephenee is probably most helpful with the Greil Army, but this also exposes her mediocre Str. Nephenee is likely to fall short of 2HKOing any non-Sage foes, but she too makes a fine Adept candidate with prevalent 3HKOs and some crit to boot. Ultimately, Marcia is more valuable.

I disagree with this sentiment and this sentiment alone. There are bows and crossbows in both the Silver army's chapters and 44HP/21DEF isn't that good of durability. In 4-P she'll be around the 4-5HKO range at likely pretty good hit rates against Paladins. (I mean, it's not like Micaiah is giving her any help. And who is she going to have a support with?) And if there's anything that's actually likely to get 4-5 hits in a single enemy phase, it's Paladins. She might have the ever so slight advantage of being able to ORKO with Horseslayer in 4-P, but it's not like that isn't easily replicable.

Overall though, I'll agree with the proposed move.

[-Cynthia-]

Marcia is useful in 2-P (one of only 3 combat units, and arguably more valuable than Nealuchi - Haar is great but joins late) and 2-3 (perfect unit to take out the Horseslayer Halberdier).

Nephenee is useful in 2-1 (one of only two combat units) but not so great in 2-2.

2-P is one of those maps that it's pretty pointless to be 'useful' on though, since Marcia neither cuts turns nor makes the map significantly easier to beat (you can't really fail the main objective, Marcia or no), which means all she really does is help everyone else get a little Exp and get some Exp herself. Nephenee is pretty much crucial to the reliability/turns of 2-1 on the other hand. Equating the two isn't doing much justice.

Even though Nephenee's Wind affinity isn't great, someone will likely want to support her regardless and she can have an A by the time Part 4 starts with a GM of choice- which makes her durability and/or durability leads a bit more significant.

[Shadow Mir]

And also he has a bond support with Oscar, so we can add more Crit to that Killer Axe Crit, Oscar should not be going too far ahead anyway in both Chap 3-P and 3-1 because he is not that durable at only 17 Def (still more than Boyd though), Titania and Gatrie, however, should be using the full extent of their movement range. Also we can make Rolf tag along behind Boyd even if he isn't doing anything (because he may as well contribute to the battle by adding Crit and this isn't a hinderance as they both have the same movement). Therefore Boyd with Killer Axe will have 20 bond Crit + 30 weapon Crit + 10 Skl Crit = 60 Crit which is really good to say the least and will help immensely with this chapter

No, no, no. Why would both Rolf and Oscar be adjacent to Boyd? Just so I can make an otherwise dicey strategy look reliable? Because without crit boosts, killer weapons would only give you a crit rate in the 20s - not exactly reliable.

I disagree with this sentiment and this sentiment alone. There are bows and crossbows in both the Silver army's chapters and 44HP/21DEF isn't that good of durability. In 4-P she'll be around the 4-5HKO range at likely pretty good hit rates against Paladins. (I mean, it's not like Micaiah is giving her any help. And who is she going to have a support with?) And if there's anything that's actually likely to get 4-5 hits in a single enemy phase, it's Paladins. She might have the ever so slight advantage of being able to ORKO with Horseslayer in 4-P, but it's not like that isn't easily replicable.

As for the bows comment, while that is indeed true, there's only one crossbow dude in 4-P, and 3 of the crossbow guys in 4-3 start at the south edge (and thus are virtually non-factors, as they're headed right where the Burger King spawns).

Edited November 23, 2012 by Levant Fortner

[aku chi]

There are bows and crossbows in both the Silver army's chapters and 44HP/21DEF isn't that good of durability.

Nullify is an option. I agree that Marcia's concrete durability isn't great, but canto allows one a great degree of control over how many enemies she is exposed to on enemy phase.

And who is [Marcia] going to have a support with?

Tanith or Sigrun, most likely. Unfortunately, a C rank support is all that can be expected before 4-E. A B-rank Haar support might be possible in 4-3, but the support isn't as good.

2-P is one of those maps that it's pretty pointless to be 'useful' on though, since Marcia neither cuts turns nor makes the map significantly easier to beat (you can't really fail the main objective, Marcia or no), which means all she really does is help everyone else get a little Exp and get some Exp herself. Nephenee is pretty much crucial to the reliability/turns of 2-1 on the other hand. Equating the two isn't doing much justice.

I didn't mean to equate the two. 2-1 is Nephenee's best contribution in Part 2. Nephenee isn't particularly useful in 2-2 or 2-E. Marcia, on the other hand, is useful in 2-P, 2-3, and 2-E. On net, I think Marcia is more useful in Part 2.

Even though Nephenee's Wind affinity isn't great, someone will likely want to support her regardless and she can have an A by the time Part 4 starts with a GM of choice- which makes her durability and/or durability leads a bit more significant.

Who are you thinking might support Nephenee? Titania and Oscar don't share Nephenee's movement and probably want to support one another. Haar is rarely going to be in the same location as Nephenee, has a poor support type, and is likely to go with the Silver Army. Ike will likely be supporting Mia or Boyd. Shinon will probably support the other (he really doesn't care for a Wind support). Ranulf has a poor support type and is locked to the Hawk Army. The Hawks would prefer to support one another. Rolf, Lethe, Lyre, Kyza, and Brom are unlikely to be deployed. Heather won't be deployed reliably enough to support Nephenee. Gatrie, Soren, Rhys, or Mist might be open to a Nephenee support, but only Mist shares Nephenee's movement and only Gatrie is frontline material. I suppose Mordecai might tolerate a Nephenee support, but it isn't trivial to keep them within support range.

[dondon151]

you can't just write off all of those supports as not happening

neph x boyd and neph x shinon are support pairings that i've done handily

and even if she can't support these guys, that doesn't mean that she won't get a support or that the support will never be in play. supports don't tend to be in play very often anyway, so i don't understand how you can make this out to be a big disadvantage.

[-Cynthia-]

I didn't mean to equate the two. 2-1 is Nephenee's best contribution in Part 2. Nephenee isn't particularly useful in 2-2 or 2-E. Marcia, on the other hand, is useful in 2-P, 2-3, and 2-E. On net, I think Marcia is more useful in Part 2.

2-P doesn't matter and I can't really think of how Marcia contributes much to 2-E (unless we're set on stealing items with Heather). Transfer Marcia is sort of useful in 2-3, but I'll disagree that Nephenee's 2-2 isn't at least somewhat significant (enemies get in the way and most of the team can't ORKO).

Who are you thinking might support Nephenee? Titania and Oscar don't share Nephenee's movement and probably want to support one another. Haar is rarely going to be in the same location as Nephenee, has a poor support type, and is likely to go with the Silver Army. Ike will likely be supporting Mia or Boyd. Shinon will probably support the other (he really doesn't care for a Wind support). Ranulf has a poor support type and is locked to the Hawk Army. The Hawks would prefer to support one another. Rolf, Lethe, Lyre, Kyza, and Brom are unlikely to be deployed. Heather won't be deployed reliably enough to support Nephenee. Gatrie, Soren, Rhys, or Mist might be open to a Nephenee support, but only Mist shares Nephenee's movement and only Gatrie is frontline material. I suppose Mordecai might tolerate a Nephenee support, but it isn't trivial to keep them within support range.

Shinon and Boyd are both possibilities I think, because if we're using Nephenee (and Titania/Oscar/Haar/Mia/Ike) we aren't necessarily using both of them- that's getting to be a pretty large list of GMs being trained for Part 4.

[aku chi]

I can't really think of how Marcia contributes much to 2-E (unless we're set on stealing items with Heather).

I'm not super-familiar with efficient clears of 2-E, but I believe Marcia (T) can contribute in some of the following ways:

• Deliver to Haar the 2-3 Speedwings that he needs to double Ludveck.
  
• Help kill the Energy Drop Armored Knight.
  
• Help rescue-drop Heather to steal the Dracoshield.
  
• Help kill the Nullify General.

None of which Nephenee can do. I submit that Marcia's potential contributions in 2-E are greater than Nephenee's potential contributions in 2-2. Nephenee is as unimportant in 2-E as Marcia in 2-P. Marcia (T)'s 2-3 contributions are at least of similar value to Nephenee (N)'s 2-1 contributions. Do you disagree with this assessment?

Shinon and Boyd are both possibilities I think, because if we're using Nephenee (and Titania/Oscar/Haar/Mia/Ike) we aren't necessarily using both of them- that's getting to be a pretty large list of GMs being trained for Part 4.

Very well. I would like to note that Shinon gets nothing out of a support with Nephenee (all he really needs is Atk). But Nephenee can gain some needed durability from a Shinon support. I don't think that Nephenee's small durability and smaller Atk advantage can compensate for Marcia's +2 mov, canto, and flight in Part 4 - do you?

[-Cynthia-]

I'm not super-familiar with efficient clears of 2-E, but I believe Marcia (T) can contribute in some of the following ways:

• Deliver to Haar the 2-3 Speedwings that he needs to double Ludveck.
  
• Help kill the Energy Drop Armored Knight.
  
• Help rescue-drop Heather to steal the Dracoshield.
  
• Help kill the Nullify General.

None of which Nephenee can do. I submit that Marcia's potential contributions in 2-E are greater than Nephenee's potential contributions in 2-2. Nephenee is as unimportant in 2-E as Marcia in 2-P. Marcia (T)'s 2-3 contributions are at least of similar value to Nephenee (N)'s 2-1 contributions. Do you disagree with this assessment?

Well for one, you shouldn't need Marcia to deliver the Speedwing if you planned properly (Have the unit killing the Speedwing guy have a full inventory). Not sure how useful most of those other things are- I guess if we're willing to spend the turns to get all the stuff Marcia's contributions become useful.

And no, I can't agree with Marcia's 2-3= Nephenee's 2-1. Doing 2-3 without Marcia(T) is pretty easy, trying to Brom solo 2-1 would be quite slow indeed I imagine. Granted I can't speak from experience here since I've never Brom soloed 2-1, but Nephenee just seems far more crucial in terms of turns and reliability.

Very well. I would like to note that Shinon gets nothing out of a support with Nephenee (all he really needs is Atk). But Nephenee can gain some needed durability from a Shinon support. I don't think that Nephenee's small durability and smaller Atk advantage can compensate for Marcia's +2 mov, canto, and flight in Part 4 - do you?

Eh, unlike in many FE games the movement/canto/flight isn't that great of an advantage- part 4 is made up of Rout maps rather than Seize and the route split allows foot units to work pretty well in certain armies. Being able to go Silver Army is an advantage for Marcia but I wouldn't say it's a huge one.

[Anouleth]

Well for one, you shouldn't need Marcia to deliver the Speedwing if you planned properly (Have the unit killing the Speedwing guy have a full inventory). Not sure how useful most of those other things are- I guess if we're willing to spend the turns to get all the stuff Marcia's contributions become useful.

And no, I can't agree with Marcia's 2-3= Nephenee's 2-1. Doing 2-3 without Marcia(T) is pretty easy, trying to Brom solo 2-1 would be quite slow indeed I imagine. Granted I can't speak from experience here since I've never Brom soloed 2-1, but Nephenee just seems far more crucial in terms of turns and reliability.

Should that really be fully counted, though? Nephenee is one of two units in that chapter. In that sense, she is much like Edward in 1-P or the Black Knight in 1-9: vital, but more by an accident of availability. Is it really meaningful to claim that Brom or Nephenee or Edward or the Black Knight are "good" in those chapters when the player is all but required to use them?

Eh, unlike in many FE games the movement/canto/flight isn't that great of an advantage- part 4 is made up of Rout maps rather than Seize and the route split allows foot units to work pretty well in certain armies. Being able to go Silver Army is an advantage for Marcia but I wouldn't say it's a huge one.

Flight is a pretty huge advantage for Marcia, and there's a reasonable chance that she'll have the stats to back that up with. Mobility is just as important in Rout maps as it is in Seize maps, and although it's true that Nephenee can go into Greil Army and still be good, Marcia can go in any army and be great. That added flexibility is important.

[nflchamp]

Nullify is an option. I agree that Marcia's concrete durability isn't great, but canto allows one a great degree of control over how many enemies she is exposed to on enemy phase.

The bigger problem here being that she isn't doing anything that impressive compared to (insert trained foot unit here). Keeping her alive is fine and dandy, but she's just another run of the mill unit rather than something impressive. That's the same boat Neph's in.

[Anouleth]

The bigger problem here being that she isn't doing anything that impressive compared to (insert trained foot unit here). Keeping her alive is fine and dandy, but she's just another run of the mill unit rather than something impressive. That's the same boat Neph's in.

And that's why it's being argued that Marcia should go one space above Nephenee. Nobody is saying that Marcia is the Second Coming of Haar, nobody is saying that she's way way better than Nephenee. But she doesn't have to be impressive to go above Nephenee, she just has to be better than Nephenee.

[Florete]

I'm not super-familiar with efficient clears of 2-E, but I believe Marcia (T) can contribute in some of the following ways:

• Deliver to Haar the 2-3 Speedwings that he needs to double Ludveck.
  
• Help kill the Energy Drop Armored Knight.
  
• Help rescue-drop Heather to steal the Dracoshield.
  
• Help kill the Nullify General.

None of which Nephenee can do.

Huh what? Cynthia covered that first one, and I should add that it's much more efficient to let him come down to you (this is easy in practice) and bombard him than to have Marcia fly up since she can't ORKO him and there are Snipers. Marcia's not doing much killing of anything in armor on 2-E even if we assume it's played out for enough turns to get all these things (which I generally find to be okay); even with 3 Str more then Nephenee she can't do much damage. Nullify is not that special, but if one truly wants it, there are far better ways than using either of these two. The Energy Drop Knight is quite easy for someone like Haar, Elincia, or Mordecai to kill (or any unit who can reasonably tank), so it again can't really be credited to Marcia or Nephenee. And I don't know about anyone else, but whenever I steal the Dracoshield (which isn't often), I always make sure it's right before killing Ludveck. Not much point in getting it any sooner if it would put Heather in danger.

I also agree with Cynthia on Nephenee's part 2 definitely being more valuable than Marcia's. 2-P is mere self-improvement (send Elincia in with Mend equipped to get an easy clear). A Brom solo in 2-1 is ridiculously unreasonable. Nephenee herself isn't great in 2-2, but you kind of need everyone to do that map reliably since only Lucia can really ORKO anything. Marcia's pretty good in 2-3, but her only great claim to fame is eliminating the Horseslayer guy; all things considered, she really doesn't have a greater effect on 2-3 than Nephenee does on 2-2. I'd say they're pretty close to even. And considering how easily 2-E can potentially be cleared and all the other stuff up there, 2-E isn't really doing anything for either of them.

All that said, Anouleth also makes a good point in equating 2-1 to 1-P. I want to say Neph should still get some credit for it since, unlike 1-P, it is possible to do it without her, it's just like twice as slow. But it sure throws a wrench into things.

Haven't read much of the stuff brought up for part 3 and the future, but with Marcia's lack of availability and the abundance of fliers when comes back, plus her need to catch up where Nephenee is probably already fine, I'd find it tough to say she's clearly better. She does definitely have more part 4 flexibility, but it's tough to determine how useful she'll really be wherever she goes while Nephenee should, at this point, be reliable on any route.

[-Cynthia-]

Should that really be fully counted, though? Nephenee is one of two units in that chapter. In that sense, she is much like Edward in 1-P or the Black Knight in 1-9: vital, but more by an accident of availability. Is it really meaningful to claim that Brom or Nephenee or Edward or the Black Knight are "good" in those chapters when the player is all but required to use them?

Edward, Brom, and the Black Knight and such still have this reflected pretty strongly in the tier rankings though. Tauroneo only has 2 chapters where he's good and he's near the top of Middle, the BK only has 2.5 chapters period and he's near the top of Upper Middle etc.

[aku chi]

Huh what? Cynthia covered that first one, and I should add that it's much more efficient to let him come down to you (this is easy in practice) and bombard him than to have Marcia fly up since she can't ORKO him and there are Snipers. Marcia's not doing much killing of anything in armor on 2-E even if we assume it's played out for enough turns to get all these things (which I generally find to be okay); even with 3 Str more then Nephenee she can't do much damage. Nullify is not that special, but if one truly wants it, there are far better ways than using either of these two. The Energy Drop Knight is quite easy for someone like Haar, Elincia, or Mordecai to kill (or any unit who can reasonably tank), so it again can't really be credited to Marcia or Nephenee.

The things I mentioned are all contributions Marcia can make that Nephenee cannot. They are not essential actions only performable by Marcia.

FYI: the Marcia I stipulate in 2-E can deal 22/36 damage to the Nullify General and 30/38 damage to the Energy Drop Armor Knight with the Steel Greatlance. Marcia can attack and canto to safety. Nephenee can't even reach these enemies. This Marcia can even deal 14 damage to Ludveck, if needed.

And I don't know about anyone else, but whenever I steal the Dracoshield (which isn't often), I always make sure it's right before killing Ludveck. Not much point in getting it any sooner if it would put Heather in danger.

Of course. But somebody has to drop Heather near the Dracoshield General. Elincia can do it, Haar can do it, Marcia can do it. Nephenee cannot do it.

A Brom solo in 2-1 is ridiculously unreasonable.

How so? Brom is much more important to the clear than Nephenee. Nephenee can't double because she's weighed down by her weapon. Brom has +6 Def and +4 HP over Nephenee. Only Brom can tank Yeardley's attacks.

Nephenee herself isn't great in 2-2, but you kind of need everyone to do that map reliably since only Lucia can really ORKO anything.

I suspect Nephenee isn't required for the fastest clears of 2-2. She is the worst combat unit in the chapter (except Heather).

Marcia's pretty good in 2-3, but her only great claim to fame is eliminating the Horseslayer guy;

Marcia (T) is also best suited to killing the Speedwings Halberdier (she's very likely to have the 23 AS needed to double him).

Haven't read much of the stuff brought up for part 3 and the future, but with Marcia's lack of availability and the abundance of fliers when comes back, plus her need to catch up where Nephenee is probably already fine, I'd find it tough to say she's clearly better.

Read my post. Marcia (T) has no need to "catch up" with Nephenee (N) in Part 4. They have nearly identical Spd and Atk. Nephenee has a small durability advantage. Marcia has a huge mobility advantage and a small weapon selection advantage. Marcia (T) blows out Nephenee (N) in Part 4.

She does definitely have more part 4 flexibility, but it's tough to determine how useful she'll really be wherever she goes while Nephenee should, at this point, be reliable on any route.

Nephenee (N) is never great. She struggles to 3HKO non-Sages at 1-range throughout her entire existence. She is a mediocre combat unit (like Boyd (N)) on a team filled with good->excellent combat units. It's long past time she drops to a more suitable tier position.

[Snowy_One]

How so? Brom is much more important to the clear than Nephenee. Nephenee can't double because she's weighed down by her weapon. Brom has +6 Def and +4 HP over Nephenee. Only Brom can tank Yeardley's attacks.

Forgive me for not knowing much about FE10 tiering, but the main point of this is to come in with a lower turn-count, right? That's what you were trying to get at with Marcia's contributions in 2-P, right? Well, if so, wouldn't Elincia and the other units be more important than Marcia to a 2-P clear? I know Elincia herself is stuck with Mercy, but she can still drop units down to 1 HP. Marcia's only major role is in cleaning up the units Elincia will have near-killed, no? So why does Marcia get credit for Elincia's work there, but Nephenee not get credit for helping out here? Especially since I'm sure Brom's low movement will be a big problem for a low turn clear.

I'm sorry if I'm wrong. Just seems like a logical contradiction to me.

[bottlegnomes]

Forgive me for not knowing much about FE10 tiering, but the main point of this is to come in with a lower turn-count, right? That's what you were trying to get at with Marcia's contributions in 2-P, right? Well, if so, wouldn't Elincia and the other units be more important than Marcia to a 2-P clear? I know Elincia herself is stuck with Mercy, but she can still drop units down to 1 HP. Marcia's only major role is in cleaning up the units Elincia will have near-killed, no? So why does Marcia get credit for Elincia's work there, but Nephenee not get credit for helping out here? Especially since I'm sure Brom's low movement will be a big problem for a low turn clear.

I'm sorry if I'm wrong. Just seems like a logical contradiction to me.

You are. 2-P has a set number of turns, so all it is is getting exp for your characters. Also, Elincia doesn't have mercy in 2-P; she just has a shit weapon and gets next to no exp from combat. So she's likely on heal duty since that probably works out the best for everyone.

2-1 is also a small map, so Brom's movement isn't much of a problem.

Edited November 25, 2012 by bottlegnomes

[Anouleth]

Edward, Brom, and the Black Knight and such still have this reflected pretty strongly in the tier rankings though. Tauroneo only has 2 chapters where he's good and he's near the top of Middle, the BK only has 2.5 chapters period and he's near the top of Upper Middle etc.

Tauroneo is in a different position. You do not have to use him in 1-6, even though you almost certainly will because he's very good. You do have to use Nephenee in 2-1, not because she's good (she's a pain in the ass more than anything) but because you have no choice but to use her. Similarly, you have practically no choice but to use the Black Knight in 1-8. I don't think it would be meaningful to say these characters are good because the player is for all purposes, forced to use them.

Also, having 2 or 3 good chapters and ending up in Mid seems typical enough. Kieran is in Mid, with two good chapters, and Giffca is in Mid, with only a good Endgame performance.

[nflchamp]

And that's why it's being argued that Marcia should go one space above Nephenee. Nobody is saying that Marcia is the Second Coming of Haar, nobody is saying that she's way way better than Nephenee. But she doesn't have to be impressive to go above Nephenee, she just has to be better than Nephenee.

What, I'm not arguing the change. I just think it's silly to say that Marcia is more useful in pre-Endgame part 4. If she is it's by some slim margin that's hardly noticeable.

[aku chi]

What, I'm not arguing the change. I just think it's silly to say that Marcia is more useful in pre-Endgame part 4. If she is it's by some slim margin that's hardly noticeable.

I don't think it's "silly" at all. Marcia is more helpful in the Silver Army than Nephenee. But even if both go to the Greil Army, Marcia is slightly better. Canto makes it much easier for Marcia to get vigored and to retreat to a safe position each turn. Marcia has +2 mov in 4-1. Marcia can change elevations in 4-4 without penalty. Nephenee has better durability, but it's not the kind of durability where one can expose her to 5+ enemies on enemy phase. Moreover, we wouldn't want to, because Nephenee doesn't ORKO anything unless she activates skills. Marcia is solidly better in Part 4.

[Florete]

The things I mentioned are all contributions Marcia can make that Nephenee cannot. They are not essential actions only performable by Marcia.

FYI: the Marcia I stipulate in 2-E can deal 22/36 damage to the Nullify General and 30/38 damage to the Energy Drop Armor Knight with the Steel Greatlance. Marcia can attack and canto to safety. Nephenee can't even reach these enemies. This Marcia can even deal 14 damage to Ludveck, if needed.

My point was that neither can really claim great value from these. The Energy Drop guy literally just walks right up to you, how can Nephenee (or anyone) not reach him? That is more like a case of "he's going to be killed anyway." Sure, Marcia might be the one who deals the finishing blow, but who really cares? He's one of many enemies you kill.

Of course. But somebody has to drop Heather near the Dracoshield General. Elincia can do it, Haar can do it, Marcia can do it. Nephenee cannot do it.

Why can't Heather just...walk up to him? If we're playing the map enough to actually get all this stuff, we'll probably be clearing a path to Ludveck on the way. And if we're going faster than that, there's no place to safely drop Heather down there. There are too many enemies.

How so? Brom is much more important to the clear than Nephenee. Nephenee can't double because she's weighed down by her weapon. Brom has +6 Def and +4 HP over Nephenee. Only Brom can tank Yeardley's attacks.

You have successfully proven that Brom > Nephenee in 2-1. Cool. I never would have disagreed with that. But that doesn't mean Nephenee sucks or something. Excluding either of them will raise your turn count on the map by, like, 5 or 6 at least.

Although I will mention that Nephenee can be a better choice for killing Yeardley with Wrath, if circumstances allow. There are enough healing items to make this reasonable.

I suspect Nephenee isn't required for the fastest clears of 2-2. She is the worst combat unit in the chapter (except Heather).

Frankly, your suspicions aren't worth much to me when you're the one with the burden of proof.

Read my post. Marcia (T) has no need to "catch up" with Nephenee (N) in Part 4. They have nearly identical Spd and Atk. Nephenee has a small durability advantage. Marcia has a huge mobility advantage and a small weapon selection advantage. Marcia (T) blows out Nephenee (N) in Part 4.

Your post just glosses over everything and doesn't give levels or stats until part 4. Since it seems assumed 2-E is played out for at least 8-10 turns, Nephenee will get experience there (which is always what she tends to need to do well in part 3). She'll probably come into 3-2 at level 6 or 7. She's only a few levels away from capping Skl, Spd, and Res, allowing for good BEXP slow-playing and occasional level-pushing to get her the necessary Str and Def, and she has the time to do it. Your levels of 15/1 and 10/3 for them at part 4 are ridiculous, no one is going to do that. Master Crowns aren't common enough for that to be worth it. Furthermore, while I don't necessarily always play super "efficiently," I don't screw around, and I've never entered part 4 with any of my GM units at less than 20/1 (or sometimes 18-19/1), so this is some serious under leveling here, for both of them. Forget Paragon?

Man, if Interceptor were here I bet he'd be all over this debate.

I'm not completely opposed to the idea of Marcia (T) > Nephenee, but I feel you're rather underrating Nephenee given all you're attributing to Marcia.

[Dark Sage]

Yeah well Interceptor is not here so tough shit huh?

Btw, you can complete 2-E in 3 turns and get everything that matters, you really don't need to spend 8-9 turns there at all. And I also love how we used to give credit to Marcia for the Speedwing Halberdier but conveniently don't now.