OMG it's a tier list

[Snowy_One]

I don't think people will seriously consider dropping Jill though (least if they bothered to train her). Volug is a different matter due to Laguz bars and the like, meaning Jill will almost certainly dominate Volug in part 4.

[General Banzai]

The thing is though Part 4 is easy, and you have a wide range of options for who you can use during it

Not so much Part 1

[Snowy_One]

Regardless, if we deploy Volug in Part 4 he won't do as much as Jill in part 4 and, unless I'm forgetting something, we generally assume a unit will always be used. We don't suddenly discount Volug's part 4 because 'Giffca is there'. We still count it and, if he can do anything useful, it matters. Else all of FE9 would be pointless because Titania/Ike are there.

Plus, part 1 isn't really that hard. You don't have as many options, yes, but you aren't exactly pinned up against the wall either. Not using Volug at all is perfectly viable and won't result in some chapter becoming near-impossible.

[General Banzai]

Regardless, if we deploy Volug in Part 4 he won't do as much as Jill in part 4 and, unless I'm forgetting something, we generally assume a unit will always be used.

Honestly that strikes me as a weird way to do things, at least in a FERD tier where units are often useful or even necessary for 1 or 2 chapters but then disappear and come back 20 chapters later totally useless.

Like does Geoffrey's use assume we're always using Geoffrey? Because honestly using Geoffrey when he returns in Part 4 is actually detrimental because he's taking a spot in the final chapter that anyone more useful can take (even people you get handed for free, like Renning, would be better in that spot). But we shouldn't detract Geoffrey's use in Part 2 because of his Part 4 antiuse, where he is literally less than useful, because we can just not use him then and thus not hurt our team.

[Florete]

Jill going up is not something I disagree with at all (why is she below Micaiah?), it's the amount that is worth questioning. Jill being better than Volug in part 4 isn't particularly important to note, but I would say she gets points for just being one of the best part 4 units, possibly the best.

[Elieson]

I dunno I always assumed that Miccy was more useful for Thani bombing in chapters that desperately need additional offence, where Jill only has a chapter or two of exclusive superiority in 3-X and what with the GMs being God's Minions anyway, Miccy's LATEGAME staffbot, A-Sothe and early game Heal/Thani utility seems pretty hard to just ignore.

[shadykid]

I dunno I always assumed that Miccy was more useful for Thani bombing in chapters that desperately need additional offence, where Jill only has a chapter or two of exclusive superiority in 3-X and what with the GMs being God's Minions anyway, Miccy's LATEGAME staffbot, A-Sothe and early game Heal/Thani utility seems pretty hard to just ignore.

staffbots? please, nobody needs those (and just use Elincia or something anyway)

also I think a lot of people are underestimating Jill's part 4 under "hurr hurr well everyone can be good there!"

[Snowy_One]

Honestly that strikes me as a weird way to do things, at least in a FERD tier where units are often useful or even necessary for 1 or 2 chapters but then disappear and come back 20 chapters later totally useless.

Like does Geoffrey's use assume we're always using Geoffrey? Because honestly using Geoffrey when he returns in Part 4 is actually detrimental because he's taking a spot in the final chapter that anyone more useful can take (even people you get handed for free, like Renning, would be better in that spot). But we shouldn't detract Geoffrey's use in Part 2 because of his Part 4 antiuse, where he is literally less than useful, because we can just not use him then and thus not hurt our team.

Well, yea. You can use Geoffrey in part 4, can't you? Why should we discount how good/bad he is in that part just because the Laguz Kings and the like are around? Otherwise we can just discount it when a unit has a bad rejoin. Vika > Lethe because Vika's good for 1-2 chapters and Lethe is only 'meh' and their part 4 doesn't count because no one will use either. Even though we just decided the opposite.

The only difference RD's system has from a 'standard' FE is that some units will have non-sequential deployments. That's really about it. Some units get screwed a lot harder than others, but there is nothing we can really do about that.

[Espinosa]

Anybody mind reminding me what Jill's higher SPD cap (35 > Haar's 32) means in practice during the endgame maps? Been a while since I looked at the enemy stats.

I feel like we're beating around the bush here, though to me it's pretty obvious that Jill shouldn't be as low as she is (though she's not the best character in the game she's pretty damn close, and we shouldn't discard a view just for representing an extremity).

[PKL]

Jill is definetely in the best characters end of this game. But she's not Haar. The 35 spd cap allows her to double Swordmasters in the desert and Auras I guess (but who cares about endgame really). Let's not forget that she needs Robes Drop and Shields to function as Top Tier and should be punished accordingly.

[shadykid]

one of those cases where everyone is in agreement and we're arguing how far up she should go, haha

anyway, I think Jill>Mia/Nolan/Shinon (seriously what is Shinon doing there) is a starting point

(also lmao at mentioning a skill transfer for Reyson in the transfers list)

[General Banzai]

Otherwise we can just discount it when a unit has a bad rejoin.

yeah thats the point

we shouldn't penalize a unit for sucking in chapters we don't have to use them in

[Dark Sage]

yeah thats the point

we shouldn't penalize a unit for sucking in chapters we don't have to use them in

How do we deal with superstars like Lyre then? We never have to deploy her.

[Snowy_One]

Sides, they're not negatives, just less of a positive. Unless a unit outright hurts the team by being deployed, they're not negatives. Since no unit actually hurts the team by being deployed, no unit is a negative.

[Espinosa]

Bad units hurt the team by making it more difficult for them to play fast and in some cases making survival difficult because said bad units need special attention.

I'm really forgetful right now; if Miledy is absent for a long time but wallops when she's around but Marcus wallops the earlygame and fades into obscurity by midgame, how do we compare these two? Marcus exists for longer but Miledy is a quality unit during each and every chapter of her existence. What's the tradition behind that and what evolution did it undergo? I've lurked these threads for years but I feel like I walked into one for the first time today (idk; it's weird).

[dondon151]

you can either argue marcus's value through gross means (marcus is always entitled a deployment slot and can just stand in a corner of the map if need be) or net means (marcus is only entitled a deployment slot when he contributes to lowering turncounts, and the contributions of the next best substitute are subtracted from his value).

or you can do something in between.

Edited October 5, 2013 by dondon151

[shadykid]

sounds like a great case for Jill>Sothe

[Snowy_One]

Either way, it's pretty easy to keep even an under-leveled unit alive for the most part. There are only a few, rare, exceptions like keeping a base-level unit alive in the Ashera fight. But considering that 'not being deployed' is still a 0, the lowest value ANY unit can have is a 0. Even when we assume a unit must always be deployed, once again, unless they activally hurt the team (which no unit does), they can't be a negative. Nothing is stopping you from some sort of mega-BEXP/item dump after-all. It's just REALLY impractical.

[Florete]

I dunno I always assumed that Miccy was more useful for Thani bombing in chapters that desperately need additional offence, where Jill only has a chapter or two of exclusive superiority in 3-X and what with the GMs being God's Minions anyway, Miccy's LATEGAME staffbot, A-Sothe and early game Heal/Thani utility seems pretty hard to just ignore.

I don't think anyone is saying Micaiah sucks (though I could see her being lower than she is now). Jill is just better.

also I think a lot of people are underestimating Jill's part 4 under "hurr hurr well everyone can be good there!"

Agreed. Part 4 typically isn't worth as much, but Jill is one of the big reasons for that.

Anybody mind reminding me what Jill's higher SPD cap (35 > Haar's 32) means in practice during the endgame maps? Been a while since I looked at the enemy stats.

Not a lot. She can double Spirits alone and Auras with Nasir. It makes her better, but it's not a huge deal.

Jill is definetely in the best characters end of this game. But she's not Haar. The 35 spd cap allows her to double Swordmasters in the desert and Auras I guess (but who cares about endgame really). Let's not forget that she needs Robes Drop and Shields to function as Top Tier and should be punished accordingly.

Even transfer Jill isn't reaching 35 Spd by the desert.

one of those cases where everyone is in agreement and we're arguing how far up she should go, haha

anyway, I think Jill>Mia/Nolan/Shinon (seriously what is Shinon doing there) is a starting point

(also lmao at mentioning a skill transfer for Reyson in the transfers list)

I think High is definitely a good starting point, but there is a bit of a problem here; I don't want this tier list to be too reliant on specific ways to use units, and Jill at her best is quite reliant on knowing what to do. So I think we need to be careful where we put her.

Bad units hurt the team by making it more difficult for them to play fast and in some cases making survival difficult because said bad units need special attention.

This is true, but I also don't want to apply that logic to this list. It makes tiering worse characters pointless. As far as I'm concerned, for the purpose of a unit's position, they have free deployment for their entire existence.

[dondon151]

FE11 caeda is also very reliant on what the player knows to do. that's not a valid argument.

[Narga_Rocks]

It's a perfectly valid argument, actually. What does RF want from the tier list she runs? Accessibility to all for understanding unit placement or not? Of course, when Mia shot up from low-upper mid to mid-high, that was reliant on knowing how to make a forge and a support, so I'm not sure it's valid to complain about specific actions vaulting units now. However, if Mia drops back to upper mid then keeping Jill down is perfectly valid.

If RF was running fe11 and didn't want to place Caeda based on forging a win spear, then that's fine, too. But as she's not running the fe11 list, your point is irrelevant.

edit: oh, a forge, a support, and also Adept and keeping Vantage helps a tad.

Edited October 5, 2013 by Narga_Rocks

[Florete]

FE11 caeda is also very reliant on what the player knows to do. that's not a valid argument.

That is to a much lesser degree, as even I who had never studied FE11 used her very effectively in H5 (and it was only my 2nd run of the game). "Use the Wing Spear" is not a tough concept to grasp. Using specific stat boosters and getting to a certain level by a specific time (or whatever else you have to do) is a bit more complicated.

It's a perfectly valid argument, actually. What does RF want from the tier list she runs? Accessibility to all for understanding unit placement or not? Of course, when Mia shot up from low-upper mid to mid-high, that was reliant on knowing how to make a forge and a support, so I'm not sure it's valid to complain about specific actions vaulting units now. However, if Mia drops back to upper mid then keeping Jill down is perfectly valid.

If RF was running fe11 and didn't want to place Caeda based on forging a win spear, then that's fine, too. But as she's not running the fe11 list, your point is irrelevant.

While I appreciate the sentiment, I don't want to make this all about me. I'll generally try to guide the list to where I think is good and avoid getting it where it shouldn't go, but I don't want to say, "that's how it is because I said so."

But yeah, there's nothing invalid about what I said, especially if you're (dondon) going to use a tier list for a completely different game as the justification...

Edited October 5, 2013 by Red Fox of Fire

[dondon151]

Of course, when Mia shot up from low-upper mid to mid-high, that was reliant on knowing how to make a forge and a support, so I'm not sure it's valid to complain about specific actions vaulting units now. However, if Mia drops back to upper mid then keeping Jill down is perfectly valid.

mia is not dropping back to upper mid because we suddenly forgot how to make a forge. mia is dropping back to upper mid because in the several years since we last seriously discussed her position, we've learned how to play the game better and faster using non-mia units. (as if mia had anything to do with this in the first place! i have no idea how you pulled this rabbit out of a hat.)

the tier list only progresses in one direction because players are constantly innovating and getting better at the game. if you're seriously trying to make this contention, realize that there's nothing stopping you from going into tier lists and:

- dropping FE5 leif because you forgot how to give him the spd ring, def ring, light sword trifecta before manster

- dropping FE7 marcus because you forgot how to give him bosskills

- dropping FE9 marcia because you forgot how to plow her with BEXP

- dropping FE10 titania because you forgot how to give her a speedwings

- dropping FE11 caeda because you forgot how to forge a wing spear

so i'm not sure whether you'd rather synthesize new ideas into the formation of a tier list or suppress the train of knowledge.

That is to a much lesser degree, as even I who had never studied FE11 used her very effectively in H5 (and it was only my 2nd run of the game). "Use the Wing Spear" is not a tough concept to grasp. Using specific stat boosters and getting to a certain level by a specific time (or whatever else you have to do) is a bit more complicated.

do you not remember the time when the wing spear was considered a novelty and the best way to use caeda was to reclass her into mage?

look, there is something very specific about how to use caeda in a manner that maximizes her performance. you have to forge her wing spear to +4 (or +6 MT if you also want to reliably LTC chapter 6). you have to give her the first angelic robe. you have to give her the first master seal. any differences that you're trying to establish between high maintenance units in other games and jill in this one is just splitting hairs.

Edited October 5, 2013 by dondon151

[Narga_Rocks]

mia is not dropping back to upper mid because we suddenly forgot how to make a forge. mia is dropping back to upper mid because in the several years since we last seriously discussed her position, we've learned how to play the game better and faster using non-mia units. (as if mia had anything to do with this in the first place! i have no idea how you pulled this rabbit out of a hat.)

the tier list only progresses in one direction because players are constantly innovating and getting better at the game. if you're seriously trying to make this contention, realize that there's nothing stopping you from going into tier lists and:

- dropping FE7 marcus because you forgot how to give him bosskills

- dropping FE5 leif because you forgot how to give him the spd ring, def ring, light sword trifecta before manster

- dropping FE11 caeda because you forgot how to forge a wing spear

- dropping FE10 titania because you forgot how to give her a speedwings.

so i'm not sure whether you'd rather synthesize new ideas into the formation of a tier list or suppress the train of knowledge.

The guy who is bringing up Caeda out of left field complains about me using an example from within this tier list on how complex decisions have already been used on this tier list to vault characters why? You weird sometimes.

There's a question of "how much is too much", or "how simple is the tier list". If you want simple understanding without needing a list of complex decisions and complex actions for how to play the game, then the Jill thing might be a bridge too far whereas giving Seth and Marcus bosskills should be simple, as is forging an amazing weapon to be even better.

Now, if we are happy with a tier list based on doing very many specific things rather than general obvious things, then stacking all your boosters onto Jill and giving her paragon or beastfoe in 3-6 to either kill a bunch of stuff quickly or get even more levels is fine. Obviously you are happy with a tier list that requires incredibly precise actions. Maybe RF isn't. But for you to suggest that all of those examples you brought up are equivalent to the Jill thing is tantamount to strawmanning. Thus, I'm out.

[shadykid]

welp, FE9 Marcia to high tier then!

Edited October 5, 2013 by shadykid