OMG it's a tier list

[Zkirsche]

I know you said you wouldn't post anymore, but some of this is relevant - Jill's performance compared to the team. You yourself brought up how Jill is good in a team filled with bad units, what we're doing is showing the oppostie - Jill's team is better than her.

That's a seriously underleveled Jill.

Level 20/1 Jill means that Jill got 7 levels in 4 chapters - that's 1.75 levels per chapoter. How on earth is that underlevelled?

Zihark is not better than Jill against untransformed laguz. Fact.

Stats please.

Unfortunately 3-6 does not reward Zihark's offense, it merely opens up anther spot for a laguz to attack and kill him. if Jill's offense was terrible you might have a point, but she 2RKOS transformed and ORKOS untransformed.

The same logic can be applied to Jill.

Unless she isn't chokeholing and helping to protect your weaker units. In which case i'd argue that Zihark was more useful.

If 2 Tigers can reach Zihark, then he has a very good chance of dying.

If 2 Tigers attacks Jill, she has a very good chance of dying too.

Edited June 13, 2009 by kirsche

[Progenitus]

Zihark getting Resolve is arguably more favoritism than Jill using a Seraph, because while almost every unit in the game likes Resolve, most units don't have significant defensive improvement with a Seraph Robe.

lolwut

LIST OF UNITS WHO WANT A ROBE

MICAIAH SO SHE DOESN'T GET LOLOHKO'D BY EVERYTHING IN DB CHAPTERS

NOLAN SO HE CAN TAKE AN EXTRA HIT

ARAN SO HE CAN TAKE AN EXTRA HIT

EDWARD SO HE DOESN'T GET 2HKO'D BY EVERYTHING IN DB CHAPTERS

FUCK, ANYONE WOULD TAKE A ROBE SO THEY CAN TAKE AN EXTRA HIT.

On the other hand, no one else wants resolve because the avoid boost doesn't make their avoid hihg enough for it to matter (their avoid with resolve is like zihark's avoid without it, lawl). Other than Volug I suppose, but he godmodes through the chapter with his abs, so there's no real point in making him even godlier, plus he'd benefit just as much from a robe anyway, yet we don't give him the robe either, because he's just that good.

All resolve does is boost their offense, so people like aran and nolan are suddenly doubling and having better offense, which is EXACTLY WHAT YOU ARE FUCKING ARGUING AGAINST.

Nevermind that you actually need the capacity to use resolve, and with several other skills around (beastfoe/paragon), it's not nearly in high contention as a robe.

We have enough slots available to field Edward/Leo for support purposes if need be.

To even get the support, you have to not only field the dumbass, but have the two supporters be next to each other.

Best of luck having base level Edward/Leo on the field. Hope they don't get attacked by anything because they're getting fucking one rounded.

Leo actually isn't that bad on 3-6, he can use the Bowgun/Beastfoe combo and leave Nolan open for Tarvos tanking.

So I'm going to get Leo to level 10, which is wasting exp, PLUS master crown him (he doesn't have the cap for beastfoe in 1st tier), which is a waste of either 10k gold or levels on other units, just so I can have OHKO shit when anyone else on the team with beastfoe can do the same thing, only not be a waste of resources because we're not fucking dropping them after 3-13.

great idea or greatest idea

You are really the only person that completely discount transfers as a possibility. They are a part of the game, get over it.

protip: An eloquently worded "no u" doesn't disprove anything. Try again, please.

Jill could also be using a +hit forge or have a support partner that boosts hit, you've basically set her up in the worst possible postion to screw up her hit.

LIST OF UNITS WITH +HIT

LAURA

SOTHE

EDWARD

MEG

No one ever uses Laura beyond part 3, and Sothe himself barely sees any use beyond part 3 either (I'd rather just bench him in 4-E because of how useless he is).

Fuck yeah Jill supports people we won't be using in part 4.

LOLEDWARD

LOLMEG

Nevermind that earlier you suggested that Jill support someone who has +def. And now you're suggesting she also supports someone with +hit.

CLEARLY JILL HAS THE ABILITY TO SUPPORT TWO PEOPLE AT THE SAME TIME.

OR MAYBE SHE'S SUPPORTING LOLEDWARD, THE BEST UNIT EVAR, WHO IS WORSE THAN ZIHARK IN EVERY WAY, WHO YOU'RE SANDBAGGING TO HELL.

Of course when Aran only has 55 hit with a Javelin at base that's entirely insignificant. Because it's Aran.

You aren't Int, you aren't funny when you troll by bringing Aran up out of nowhere.

That's a seriously underleveled Jill.

Jill is getting two levels a fucking chapter plus a master crown when she's getting like 15 exp a kill. How is that "underleveled" at all?

Despite what you may have been told, caps lock is not cruise control for cool.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Style_over_substance_fallacy

Then she can use a forged steel axe and still 2RKO everything. This also makes your hit issues completely irrelevant, not like they had much in the first place.

With a forged steel, she 3HKOs cats with no chance to double.

She still has issues 4HKOing tigers (and 2-rounding them) until ~20/4, which is pretty unimpressive when Nolan starts doubling them at 20/5 and 3HKOs, which really just leaves Aran who 3HKOs and doesn't double (though he wins durability by a large enough margin over Jill for this to not matter).

Zihark is not better than Jill against untransformed laguz. Fact.

Because these laguz are so threatening when they're untransformed, right?

FFS, Aran can double untransformed cats. Why should I care about performance against these idiots?

Nevermind that you didn't provide any proof to this claim of how jill is better than zihark against them, so I'm just going to wrap it up by saying "no ur wrong. fact".

If 2 Tigers can reach Zihark, then he has a very good chance of dying.

If 2 tigers can reach Jill, then she has an even greater chance of dying because she has less avoid and still gets 2HKO'd unless we throw favoritism on her and give Zihark nothing in return.

Honestly if you're going to post in a tier thread try to have at least a little more maturity.

Honestly if you're going to post in a tier thread you should stop trolling and use actual logic.

[_____]

Unfortunately, to field Meg doesn't have anything to do with game mechanics. 1-6-1 and 1-6-2 are only one chapter in the game's opininion, meaning Nolan and Zihark only get support points for being in one chapter together in addition to extra points they can get from ending turns next to each other or shoving each other. Even if they got C-rank in 1-6, getting to B rank in 1-7 is unlikely. After 1-8 they'd finally get to B rank and then they only have 1-E to get to A. This makes it possible, but still difficult to do. Now tell me that they can do that in a tier playthrough without hindering there preformances.

Quick question before I answer this, do we know the exact amount of turns that must be spent shoving/standing adjacent to/rescuing another unit in order for Supports to be built up?

I did not deny that it was difficult to do, but we can both agree that it is possible (and less tedious and efficiency hurting than babying the fuck out of Meg, which is why I brought her up.)

Technically, Volug can team up with Zihark or Nolan just fine - there's plenty of 1-2 range enemies in Part 1, so Volug should't always be off on his own.

The only 1-2 mage enemies that Volug really cares about would be Fire Mages, and they're awfully rare. They're only really common in 1-5 and 1-6-2. He doesn't like other mages, sure, but they don't rape him like Fire Mages, and he laughs at physical attacks.

Your stats are a bit off. If Z's at 20/5, A Earth gives 105 Avoid and B Earth gives 90 Avoid. Against a 141 Hit Cat, that's 26.28 True Hit and 52.47 True Hit respectively. Mathematically, 20/5 Zihark's chances of 2HKO by tigers is 5x lower at A Earth than B Earth.

Eddie's got 58 Avoid at 20/1, and 81 Avoid w/ A Earth. That's 68.4 True Hit against 141 Hit Cat. With Caladbolg, that's 89 Avoid, for a 54.4 True Hit. But Eddie's also got 4HKO even against 20 Def Tigers with Caladbolg, with ~31% ORKO, so if we're worried about exposing ourselves to too many laguz, Eddie might be better off without Caladbolg. An Angel Robe + Light Affinity may help him take an extra cat hit, if necessary.

Huh. I wonder how I messed that up. >_>;

Edited June 13, 2009 by Ninji

[nflchamp]

Resolve on Zihark doesn't ever get hit rates down to zero, nor is it guarenteed to even activate. If a lvl 15 or 16 cat is the first enemy to attack Zihark (roughly 1/3 of the enemies total), resolve will not activate.

Also, if Zihark only has B earth, Zihark with resolve barely makes okayish ranges of durability. ~8% to die in 2 hits. ~15% in 3. Not exactly stellar numbers. Not only does he have a decent chance of dying in 2 hits. You'll probably want to heal him rather than face the third (and maybe even fourth) attack at that HP level.

If Zihark has A earth, resolve gives Zihark about ~.8% chance to die in 2 hits. ~1.5% in 3 hits. Much better numbers.

So if Zihark has A earth (which I don't have time to talk about again, as I have to go to work for a few hours) resolve helps him greatly.

So let's get the part where resolve is highly sought after. I'll admit, not many (probably no one other than maybe Volug) members of the DB want resolve. Unfortuantely, resolve could have possibly been shipped over to the GM via Ilyana. Pretty much every GM in existance would like a resolve. And they could have had it for four chapters by 3-6. That resolve Zihark wants has plenty of competition for it.

[Zkirsche]

To be more specific:

Mordecai so he can double.

Haar so he can double.

Gatrie so he can double. Saves a master crown.

Brom so he an double

Mia for durability

etcetera.

Oh, and I give on Oscar > Jill. It's just too hard debating it.

[-Cynthia-]

Oh, and I give on Oscar > Jill. It's just too hard debating it.

Yeah debating DB member vs. GM member is usually rather painful, since you have to compare each team's part 4 performance seperately, which ends up turning in to a lot of subdebates, like this Jill vs. Zihark thing that kind of exploded.

[Progenitus]

Resolve on Zihark doesn't ever get hit rates down to zero, nor is it guarenteed to even activate. If a lvl 15 or 16 cat is the first enemy to attack Zihark (roughly 1/3 of the enemies total), resolve will not activate.

So if Zihark gets attacked by a ridiculously specific enemy combination (remember that if these cats don't put him at half HP, then that means they can't 2HKO him so if another of those cats attack him he'll be fine), resolve will not go off.

oh noez

Also, if Zihark only has B earth, Zihark with resolve barely makes okayish ranges of durability. ~8% to die in 2 hits. ~15% in 3. Not exactly stellar numbers. Not only does he have a decent chance of dying in 2 hits. You'll probably want to heal him rather than face the third (and maybe even fourth) attack at that HP level.

If Zihark has A earth, resolve gives Zihark about ~.8% chance to die in 2 hits. ~1.5% in 3 hits. Much better numbers.

So if Zihark has A earth (which I don't have time to talk about again, as I have to go to work for a few hours) resolve helps him greatly.

The whole A or B Earth is a pretty cloudy issue because no one exactly knows how fast supports go up.

I'll just say that a C by 1-7 is pretty easy, which means he'd need a B by 1-E and has one chapter to get it to A by 3-6. It may be favoritism for Zihark to get an A, but remember that his supporter also benefits from the avoid boost, so it's not quite as much favoritism as giving a unit a straight up stat booster or so, since two units are benefiting rather than just one.

Also, you're not even using true hit. How does he have a 0.8% chance to die in 2 hits? resolve/A Earth has like 136 avoid against enemies who have around 137-142 hit. The most accurate enemy would only have 0.78 hit on him.

So let's get the part where resolve is highly sought after. I'll admit, not many (probably no one other than maybe Volug) members of the DB want resolve. Unfortuantely, resolve could have possibly been shipped over to the GM via Ilyana. Pretty much every GM in existance would like a resolve. And they could have had it for four chapters by 3-6. That resolve Zihark wants has plenty of competition for it.

The whole argument was that a robe has less competition than resolve, which is blatantly false. The GMs would want a robe too.

Without favoritism, Jill's durability is not that much better than Zihark's, at least to the point where it makes it better than Zihark's offense lead.

Anyway, Zihark's offense was seriously getting sandbagged. Here's a common situation where the offense becomes useful (by "common", it's more like "happens every turn").

You're at the left chokepoint in 3-6 with the water. Zihark one rounds something on his player phase (he kills cats pretty easily, and has a good chance to do it vs tigers). Since the laguz only have 1 move in the water, if your other unit also kills the laguz in front of him (or you positioned the two units such that other one is one space diagonally in Zihark), this leaves Zihark open to only one attack at most. If you heal him he'll be completely fine.

On the other hand if you had someone like Jill in the same place, she's almost never one rounding, which means the enemy will attack her again on enemy phase because it's still hanging around, plus another laguz will likely come in, exposing Jill to 3 attacks over both phases. You'd have to heal Jill as well in the same situation, only you're taking longer to kill off the laguz than Zihark.

Or you could send Zihark to the right side, but now there are thickets to work with which give +10 avoid, so his durability skyrockets anyway.

[Dat Nick]

If those calculations are correct and Interceptor can't find a way to punch a hole in Zihark getting an A Earth support with Volug/Nolan [i'm certain he'll try though, I remember him arguing it] thickets are actually making him invincible since 146 avo>137-142.

nitpicking

but still

Edited June 13, 2009 by GreenHairedDraco

[dondon151]

If it's 1 support level per 2 maps, and we were to count 1-6 as 2 maps, then Zihark will only have a B support by 3-6. Giving him another support level requires shove abuse.

I mean I can't back up this statement with anything more than "PE" but I've found it challenging to get NolanxZihark to B (as in, they're not at B) by 1-E so I highly doubt they will reach A by 3-6.

I'd like to point out that giving a Seraph Robe to Edward changes a 2HKO to a 2HKO. Micaiah might want the robe to not get OHKO'd, but it's not like she ever has to eat an attack, and even if she takes an attack on enemy phase it's highly likely that the +7 HP won't do anything because enemies tend to double her a lot.

Edited June 13, 2009 by dondon151

[Vykan12]

thickets are actually making him invincible since 146 avo>137-142.

That's before biorhythm though. Granted, he's still facing minuscule hit rates, but they're there.

[nflchamp]

So if Zihark gets attacked by a ridiculously specific enemy combination (remember that if these cats don't put him at half HP, then that means they can't 2HKO him so if another of those cats attack him he'll be fine), resolve will not go off.

oh noez

Really, because, personally, I thought a lvl 16 cat followed by a a lvl 17 cat or any tiger had a pretty good shot at happening. In fact, there's a better chance that he'd get attacked by a combination that kills him than there is one that isn't. Note how instablicking on enemy phase is still a bad thing for someone who is 2HKO'd.

Also, you're not even using true hit. How does he have a 0.8% chance to die in 2 hits? resolve/A Earth has like 136 avoid against enemies who have around 137-142 hit. The most accurate enemy would only have 0.78 hit on him.

First, -/5 Zihark (which is what the numbers were coming from) has 129 aviod w/ A Earth and resolve active. Also, by the very nature of resolve, Zihark has to take the first attack without resolve active. 141 - 105 = 36 displayed or 26.28 true. 141 - 129 = 12 displayed or 3 true. .2628 * .03 * 100 = .8% Geez, don't tell me I can't do math.

Also, Zihark can never have 136 avoid with average stats. I don't know where you pulled that number from, but it's silly.

The whole argument was that a robe has less competition than resolve, which is blatantly false. The GMs would want a robe too.

The GMs want a resolve far more than they'd want a Robe. In fact, who in the GMs actually wants a Robe? Most of them get a small benefit at most (3 -> 4HKO most of the time).

Anyway, Zihark's offense was seriously getting sandbagged. Here's a common situation where the offense becomes useful (by "common", it's more like "happens every turn").

You're at the left chokepoint in 3-6 with the water. Zihark one rounds something on his player phase (he kills cats pretty easily, and has a good chance to do it vs tigers). Since the laguz only have 1 move in the water, if your other unit also kills the laguz in front of him (or you positioned the two units such that other one is one space diagonally in Zihark), this leaves Zihark open to only one attack at most. If you heal him he'll be completely fine.

Someone please tell me I'm just reading this wrong. Because the way I'm reading it, smash is saying that I can Leo with a bowgun and beastfoe and sit him on the same spot he put Zihark and do the same thing, except needing more healing while instablicking instead of needing more attacks with less healing.

[Progenitus]

Really, because, personally, I thought a lvl 16 cat followed by a a lvl 17 cat or any tiger had a pretty good shot at happening. In fact, there's a better chance that he'd get attacked by a combination that kills him than there is one that isn't. Note how instablicking on enemy phase is still a bad thing for someone who is 2HKO'd.

Level 16 + level 17 cat is actually pretty borderline at killing Zihark off.

First, -/5 Zihark (which is what the numbers were coming from) has 129 aviod w/ A Earth and resolve active.

20/5 is fairly low for Zihark. Are you saying he's only getting TWO levels in 1-6, 1-7, 1-8, AND 1-E, and he's basically the only real person who wants paragon in part 1? (none of the 1st tiers have the capacity for it other than micaiah, who's loloneshotted anyway. unless you give her a seraph robe that people were trying to give to Jill..... volug gets like 1 exp anyway, sothe has horrible growths, and none of the other prepromos need it).

Which throws off the rest of your numbers.

The GMs want a resolve far more than they'd want a Robe. In fact, who in the GMs actually wants a Robe? Most of them get a small benefit at most (3 -> 4HKO most of the time).

How is being able to take an extra hit NOT a big benefit for them?

Remember that resolve boosts their offense, but also reduces their durability because they're at half HP or less, and none of them really have good enough avoid to stay alive at half HP (other than Mia, but she doesn't get a big offense boost anyway since all it does is give her like 10 more crit, plus if she supports earth her durability is decent anyway, it's an alternative to resolve). It's a double edged sword, so it's not clearly benefiting them.

Someone please tell me I'm just reading this wrong. Because the way I'm reading it, smash is saying that I can Leo with a bowgun and beastfoe and sit him on the same spot he put Zihark and do the same thing, except needing more healing while instablicking instead of needing more attacks with less healing.

Except Zihark doesn't need beastfoe, nor is he lolsucking in all of part 1.

[FlyingOx]

Wow, one day later and the topic explodes.

Resolve on Zihark doesn't ever get hit rates down to zero, nor is it guarenteed to even activate. If a lvl 15 or 16 cat is the first enemy to attack Zihark (roughly 1/3 of the enemies total), resolve will not activate.

It's not a perfect solution, but proper use of herbs and vulnaries can bypass this problem, and it's better than not having and potential boost to avoid at all.

Also, if Zihark only has B earth, Zihark with resolve barely makes okayish ranges of durability. ~8% to die in 2 hits. ~15% in 3. Not exactly stellar numbers. Not only does he have a decent chance of dying in 2 hits. You'll probably want to heal him rather than face the third (and maybe even fourth) attack at that HP level.

If Zihark has A earth, resolve gives Zihark about ~.8% chance to die in 2 hits. ~1.5% in 3 hits. Much better numbers.

So if Zihark has A earth (which I don't have time to talk about again, as I have to go to work for a few hours) resolve helps him greatly.

You're only using cat hit rates here, and Zihark's 70% speed growth means that for each level, his potential durability can improve greatly. For example, by 20/7 B Earth, he's looking at 4% chance of getting hit by 2 cats, and 2% for 2 tigers. Since Cynthia brought up stat transfers, 20/7 B Earth w/ +2 Spd gives Zihark 1.5% by 2 cats or 0.7% by 2 tigers. Toss in an Ashera Icon, that's 1% by cats or 0.4% by tigers. Then there's still terrain bonus, or an actual A Earth support.

So let's get the part where resolve is highly sought after. I'll admit, not many (probably no one other than maybe Volug) members of the DB want resolve. Unfortuantely, resolve could have possibly been shipped over to the GM via Ilyana. Pretty much every GM in existance would like a resolve. And they could have had it for four chapters by 3-6. That resolve Zihark wants has plenty of competition for it.

True, but Zihark's actually looking at a big bonus to durability against the toughest enemies in part 3. I'd say he has at least a pretty good claim to it.

Really, because, personally, I thought a lvl 16 cat followed by a a lvl 17 cat or any tiger had a pretty good shot at happening. In fact, there's a better chance that he'd get attacked by a combination that kills him than there is one that isn't. Note how instablicking on enemy phase is still a bad thing for someone who is 2HKO'd.

Not all level 17 cats have 31 Mt - stats vary. And by 20/6, an angel robe or a draco shield lets Z take any 2-cat combo.

If it's 1 support level per 2 maps, and we were to count 1-6 as 2 maps, then Zihark will only have a B support by 3-6. Giving him another support level requires shove abuse.

I mean I can't back up this statement with anything more than "PE" but I've found it challenging to get NolanxZihark to B (as in, they're not at B) by 1-E so I highly doubt they will reach A by 3-6.

I've had no trouble boosting a support within 13~15 turns as long as they spend some time next to each other, which is easy given 1-7 and 1-E's narrow passageways. My original point was that since supports can't be built mid-battle, spending a little extra time to build supports or safely obtain CEXP for tier 1 units can make a world of difference for part 3. Forcing such a strict turn limit on the DB pt 1 chapters is impractical (and per-mission turn limits don't even exist in other FE tier lists anyways).

I'd like to point out that giving a Seraph Robe to Edward changes a 2HKO to a 2HKO. Micaiah might want the robe to not get OHKO'd, but it's not like she ever has to eat an attack, and even if she takes an attack on enemy phase it's highly likely that the +7 HP won't do anything because enemies tend to double her a lot.

A Seraph Robe or a Dracoshield for the SMs lets them take an extra cat hit. I'm not sure why you brought up Micaiah, but using a Robe or Shield on her is a complete waste, which you yourself seem to agree with.

I'd hate to sidetrack, but why is Titania so high? Her horse inhibits her movement on 3-4 and 3-7, and she's got some doubling issues w/ only 21 Spd, 50% Spd growth, and lower exp gain due to higher level. Gatrie, on the other hand, has better speed growth, higher exp gain, B rank in axes (giving access to killers, etc.), and access to Celerity (neither Tormod nor the DB want this) which fixes his mobility problems. Although anyone can have Celerity, Gatrie's got the raw stats to charge in, turning him into a land-based version of Haar w/ better doubling ability.

Edited June 14, 2009 by FlyingOx

[Vykan12]

Her horse inhibits her movement on 3-4 and 3-7

Even with that in consideration, she's still more mobile than the average terrain unit.

and she's got some doubling issues

There's few GMs who don't, so it can't really be held that much against her.

Gatrie, on the other hand, has better speed growth, higher exp gain, B rank in axes (giving access to killers, etc.)

Due to their low caps, both characters hit 25 spd after promotion, though Titania promotes first, which gives her a temporary advantage there. Once both promote, Gatrie's growth lead only results in 1 extra speed every 10 level-ups, and he hits his third tier spd cap of 31 at about 20/20/13, whereas Titania's is 33. Suffice to say, Gatrie and Titania double roughly the same.

The higher exp gain doesn't really tell us anything because you didn't talk about any stats (hp/def/hit/etc). Sure, Gatrie is better at melee, but 3 move (1.5 times what Gatrie has) is very significant, and Titania is always at an advantage if she reaches the enemy first since Gatrie can't kill what he doesn't attack.

and access to Celerity which fixes his mobility problems.

Titania could take that as well.

Although anyone can have Celerity, Gatrie's got the raw stats to charge in, turning him into a land-based version of Haar w/ better doubling ability.

If you want to optimize the use of celerity, then it's going to one of Haar/Ike/Reyson. Reyson especially will have an easier time vigoring 4 units, can keep up with the team better and can avoid enemies more frequently, so it's a very significant boost to his performance.

[-Cynthia-]

Also, a Speedwing is enough to fix Titania's doubling problems until 4-E. Gatrie can fix his with a Crown, but he runs into speed cap issues in Part 4.

[dondon151]

I've had no trouble boosting a support within 13~15 turns as long as they spend some time next to each other, which is easy given 1-7 and 1-E's narrow passageways. My original point was that since supports can't be built mid-battle, spending a little extra time to build supports or safely obtain CEXP for tier 1 units can make a world of difference for part 3. Forcing such a strict turn limit on the DB pt 1 chapters is impractical (and per-mission turn limits don't even exist in other FE tier lists anyways).

I don't even complete chapters in 13-15 turns, so...

Spend a little extra time to obtain CEXP for who? In the DB, tier 1 is a euphemism for crap, unless you're Nolan or Jill, in which case you're just mediocre. The CEXP cut is so frustrating that it's virtually impossible to get units like Eddie, Leo, Meg, or Aran to 20/0 by 1-E (case in point: I had used Leo extensively through part 1 and he ended at 14/0), and unless we're planning on using crappy units later on, we don't really care about CEXP in part 1.

I mean, if we really did care about CEXP in part 1, we shouldn't advocate using Sothe, Zihark, Volug, Muarim, Tormod, Vika, Nailah, and BK so much!

[CT075]

If Gatrie has easy access to a Crown to solve his doubling issues, then so can Tits. However, Tits has a pretty easy time promoting without a Crown, and is therefore taking up less resources. Because, y'know, a SpeedWing isn't that contested for (Boyd, Haar, Tits, Soren) when you compare to a Crown (Haar, Brom, Nephenee, Gatrie, Soren, possibly Rhys and/or Rolf. Perhaps Shinon too.)

[Zanarkin]

I disagree with Ena > Kurth.

Kurth gets shift skill and has more use than ena.

[Vykan12]

Kurth gets shift skill

Big deal. There's 15 laguz gems available, and also an overwhelming supply of laguz stones if you really needed it. Sure, Kurth can attack the first turn he transforms, but that would only matter if he weren't so absysmal at combat. Speaking of which, I've never tried it but I'm pretty sure Ena beats Kurth offensively by using daemon cards.

and has more use than ena.

Wow, that is the most vague tier argument I've read in a while. You might as well have said "he should move up because he's good".

Anyway, the whole story behind a Kurth vs Ena match-up is blood tide vs night tide. If you have some evidence that +5 def/res > +5 str/skl in 4-E, by all means show it.

Edited June 14, 2009 by Vykan12

[Zanarkin]

Big deal. There's 15 laguz gems available, and also an overwhelming supply of laguz stones if you really needed it. Sure, Kurth can attack the first turn he transforms, but that would only matter if he weren't so absysmal at combat. Speaking of which, I've never tried it but I'm pretty sure Ena beats Kurth offensively by using daemon cards.

Wow, that is the most vague tier argument I've read in a while. You might as well have said "he should move up because he's good".

Anyway, the whole story behind a Kurth vs Ena match-up is blood tide vs night tide. If you have some evidence that +5 def/res > +5 str/skl in 4-E, by all means show it.

I guess i forgot innate skills lol but i guess i'm wrong then. (god i can never seem to make a good argument or good come back )

[CT075]

I guess i forgot innate skills lol but i guess i'm wrong then. (god i can never seem to make a good argument or good come back )

I feel for you...

[Rei]

Btw, why is Tormod where he is? His availability is amongst the worst in the game, and when he rejoins, he's useless unless you dish out a ton of BEXP on him.

[-Cynthia-]

Btw, why is Tormod where he is? His availability is amongst the worst in the game, and when he rejoins, he's useless unless you dish out a ton of BEXP on him.

He's good for those 3 Part 1 chapters, which is more than most of the people around him can claim. He is pretty useless come Part 4 though.

[Rei]

He's good for those 3 Part 1 chapters, which is more than most of the people around him can claim. He is pretty useless come Part 4 though.

Though for those 3 chapters, your other units need the exp more due to being needed in part 3 where they get swarmed by Laguz. So it would be a waste to use Tormod if he's just going to be useless later.

[-Cynthia-]

Though for those 3 chapters, your other units need the exp more due to being needed in part 3 where they get swarmed by Laguz. So it would be a waste to use Tormod if he's just going to be useless later.

This doesn't actually hurt his Part 1 effectiveness though. Where do you think he should go? Tormod isn't particualrly high as it is, the units below him all have serious issues.