OMG it's a tier list

[Narga_Rocks]

BTW, what exactly is reason for all the positions for bottom? Namely Meg vs Astrid and Fiona vs Lyre? If Fiona because she at lease has an earth affinity to help for a C support? Does meg get doubled in her starting chapter? Plus, who doesn't love Meg's great bases of 10 str and 10 def? Oooor am I just getting messed up from playing FE6 where Marcus has 9 str as a base and can dominate with taht for a while?

Fiona > Lyre: No cat gauge, ends up better, Earth affinity, free for 3 pre-part 4 maps, easier to feed kills to.

Astrid > Meg: I think there was something about Astrid w/Silencer helping getting people into KO range in 3-11 or something. In any case, Bows make it easier for her to potshot/take kills and Meg's mobility sucks enough to make even that all the more harder for her.

Also Meg is doubled in 1-4 by some Tigers. I think 7 out of 12 or something. The ones with 12 AS. At level 3 she even needs 300 bexp to get a level, so she'd be taking 60% out of the most you can get thus far. And while spd growth is 2nd best and .65 is much higher than .4 (4th highest), so we can practically call it guaranteed with bexp, the fact is 60% of our bexp is a lot when it goes on a unit that will still be 2RKOd by cats and 2RKOd by tigers anyway. You would be making something you already have.

Even then, it takes so long to get out of her hole. Astrid is so much easier to use at first. Also even if Meg maybe comes out better in the end (though I'm not convinced) it isn't by enough to counteract how much easier it is to make Astrid help out along the way.

[Interceptor]

BTW, what exactly is reason for all the positions for bottom? Namely Meg vs Astrid and Fiona vs Lyre? If Fiona because she at lease has an earth affinity to help for a C support? Does meg get doubled in her starting chapter? Plus, who doesn't love Meg's great bases of 10 str and 10 def? Oooor am I just getting messed up from playing FE6 where Marcus has 9 str as a base and can dominate with taht for a while?

Bottom tier is a source of another one of those intractable philosophical disputes.

For example, smash thinks that Meg is better than Astrid, because Meg turns out better than Astrid if you give them both the same arbitrary amount of "favoritism" (his word, not mine) that he decided upon. Those aligning more with the opportunity cost argument, note that both units are so bad that they can't take anything without slowing the army down, and rank these two units based on things like shoving and potshots (Astrid wins this one).

Currently, smash's Army of One is on the losing side of that argument.

[charmander6000]

Astrid vs. Meg comes down to whether the point of the tier list is using units with the mind of going to endgame with that unit or using units with the mind of completing the chapter without thinking ahead since you don't have to train a single unit to beat any given chapter.

[Naglfar]

Astrid vs. Meg comes down to whether the point of the tier list is using units with the mind of going to endgame with that unit or using units with the mind of completing the chapter without thinking ahead since you don't have to train a single unit to beat any given chapter.

It seems to be a combination of both.

Also, Cain =/= Giffca go.

Just for now, I'll give the simple point of Formshift so as to not make things too complicated; and that already proves they're not the same unit.

[Florete]

Also, Cain =/= Giffca go.

Just for now, I'll give the simple point of Formshift so as to not make things too complicated; and that already proves they're not the same unit.

Really? That's all? That's like saying Aran should go up simply because he has high Def.

[-Cynthia-]

Giffca has the possibility of doubling auras without Nasir, which some have argued = Formshift. I would actually put Cain above though, 4 more Player Phases is pretty important and Giffca won't reach 20 AS without significant BEXP anyway.

[Naglfar]

Also, Cain =/= Giffca go.

Just for now, I'll give the simple point of Formshift so as to not make things too complicated; and that already proves they're not the same unit.

Really? That's all? That's like saying Aran should go up simply because he has high Def.

You've seen my post from earlier. We've established that Formshift gives Cain a lead, albeit one player phase per chapter. As for stats, it's mostly Cain's more or less unnecessary HP, strength, skill, luck and defence leads versus Giffca's slightly less unnecessary speed and resistance leads. However similar they are, they're not the same. The point of tier lists is not to say units are the same. That's a cop-out.

We have:

Cain: Formshift, slightly better concrete durability

Giffca: May suffice with a laguz stone thanks to lion transformation gauge, higher AS thanks to both base and growth

So, an extra few player phases, or an extra double attack or two? I'm leaning toward the lion king here.

Finally, I don't see how you can draw a parallel between this and Aran. He's not given as equal to anyone; nobody's going from below a unit to above. I'm trying to point out how they are not equal.

Edited November 18, 2009 by Naglfar

[Florete]

Also, Cain =/= Giffca go.

Just for now, I'll give the simple point of Formshift so as to not make things too complicated; and that already proves they're not the same unit.

Really? That's all? That's like saying Aran should go up simply because he has high Def.

You've seen my post from earlier. We've established that Formshift gives Cain a lead, albeit one player phase per chapter. As for stats, it's mostly Cain's more or less unnecessary HP, strength, skill, luck and defence leads versus Giffca's slightly less unnecessary speed and resistance leads. However similar they are, they're not the same. The point of tier lists is not to say units are the same. That's a cop-out.

We have:

Cain: Formshift, slightly better concrete durability

Giffca: May suffice with a laguz stone thanks to lion transformation gauge, higher AS thanks to both base and growth

So, an extra few player phases, or an extra double attack or two? I'm leaning toward the lion king here.

So as to not repeat myself, try this on for size.

Finally, I don't see how you can draw a parallel between this and Aran. He's not given as equal to anyone.

I was drawing a comparison. You were stating the obvious without actually making a point. It has nothing to do with Aran specifically.

[Naglfar]

Yes, it's obvious. But if I don't mention it, it won't be addressed.

Reading your points there, I'm starting to see what Giffca's AS lead can really do. Turns out I'm leaning the other way now.

Oh, and my point when mentioning Formshift was that they're not the same. That's the most important point I can make here, next to perhaps which one is better.

Edited November 18, 2009 by Naglfar

[Narga_Rocks]

You've seen my post from earlier. We've established that Formshift gives Cain a lead, albeit one player phase per chapter. As for stats, it's mostly Cain's more or less unnecessary HP, strength, skill, luck and defence leads versus Giffca's slightly less unnecessary speed and resistance leads. However similar they are, they're not the same. The point of tier lists is not to say units are the same. That's a cop-out.

You know, it is theoretically possible for the wins of two separate units to completely cancel out and yield the same overall value, despite being different. It isn't technically a cop-out. And Giffca has an AS lead of 2 and doubles more swordmasters in 4-E-2. That can cancel at least one of the extra player phases, anyway. Also he can double Lehran (assuming equipped with weapon and not rewarp) without Nasir. That's another. 4-E-1 doesn't have all that many 1-2 range enemies near the front, so any 1 range enemy that Cain doesn't kill could just as easily suicide into Giffca. If you let him fight enough then the bexp to get two levels (which most likely yields 2 points of spd, taking him from 18 -> 36 to 20 -> 40 and doubling auras) isn't as expensive as it could be. He's probably getting 1exp per, aside from attacks against deg, but still, it's something. And deg can be much help.

We have:

Cain: Formshift, slightly better concrete durability

Giffca: May suffice with a laguz stone thanks to lion transformation gauge, higher AS thanks to both base and growth

Aside from possibly 4-E-1, laguz stone (and the gauge he starts 4-E-3 with) will be sufficient. 3 uses of laguz stone can basically be ignored. The dragons should be kept out of combat anyway and their gauge depletes so slowly a stone suffices for all their transform needs, so Giffca maybe needing a gem in 4-E-1 can be ignored unless you bring like 3 non-royal laguz that aren't herons or dragons. Which is not likely.

So, an extra few player phases, or an extra double attack or two? I'm leaning toward the lion king here.

Effectively 3 player phases (rather than 4), canceled by doubling swordmasters, Lehran, and the possibility of doubling auras without Nasir (allowing for Parity, or just more open tactics.)

Finally, I don't see how you can draw a parallel between this and Aran. He's not given as equal to anyone; nobody's going from below a unit to above. I'm trying to point out how they are not equal.

Cain goes up because Formshift.

Aran goes up because def.

Mia goes up because spd.

Naesala goes up because of his hair.

3 + 6 = 4 + 5, despite the numbers used in the addition being different. Simply saying that they are not the exact same does not prove that they don't have equal value.

(edit, second time in a few days I got ninja'd by Red Fox of Fire.)

Edited November 18, 2009 by Narga_Rocks

[Florete]

Yes, it's obvious. But if I don't mention it, it won't be addressed.

Formshift isn't nearly as much of an advantage against Giffca as it would be against, say, Ranulf, because Giffca's gauge is so lenient you can almost just ignore Formshift. Thus using that as your only point was weak.

It's okay, though, I've seen worse.

(edit, second time in a few days I got ninja'd by Red Fox of Fire.)

I wouldn't say that, unless you're referring specifically to my link to my previous post on the matter. If you're referring to this:

Cain goes up because Formshift.

Aran goes up because def.

Mia goes up because spd.

Naesala goes up because of his hair.

3 + 6 = 4 + 5, despite the numbers used in the addition being different. Simply saying that they are not the exact same does not prove that they don't have equal value.

I think the way you put it is a lot better.

[Narga_Rocks]

(edit, second time in a few days I got ninja'd by Red Fox of Fire.)

I wouldn't say that, unless you're referring specifically to my link to my previous post on the matter.

Yeah, I was mostly talking about how you basically answered his entire post before I did. Mainly the link, I guess, since it said what I said.

If you're referring to this:

Cain goes up because Formshift.

Aran goes up because def.

Mia goes up because spd.

Naesala goes up because of his hair.

3 + 6 = 4 + 5, despite the numbers used in the addition being different. Simply saying that they are not the exact same does not prove that they don't have equal value.

I think the way you put it is a lot better.

Thank you.

Yours was good too, though:

You were stating the obvious without actually making a point.

Edited November 18, 2009 by Narga_Rocks

[Florete]

Yeah, I was mostly talking about how you basically answered his entire post before I did. Mainly the link, I guess, since it said what I said.

I guess when you like to type a lot this kind of stuff will happen.

Yours was good too, though:

You were stating the obvious without actually making a point.

Haw, I saw that before the edit. Too used to GFaqs forcing you to type your HTML? :P

[Narga_Rocks]

Yeah, I was mostly talking about how you basically answered his entire post before I did. Mainly the link, I guess, since it said what I said.

I guess when you like to type a lot this kind of stuff will happen.

Yeah, not many short posts for me. Plus based on the time stamps I probably started mine just a little bit before you posted yours.

Yours was good too, though:

You were stating the obvious without actually making a point.

Haw, I saw that before the edit. Too used to GFaqs forcing you to type your HTML? :P

<i>Yes</i>. It happens a fair amount of time, but most of the time I catch it in the preview post or even before I hit that button. This time I just hit add reply because I thought I didn't need to check my post.

[Naglfar]

And Giffca has an AS lead of 2 and doubles more swordmasters in 4-E-2.

4-E-2, hm?

If it lasts one turn, Cain wins, obviously. Giffca will likely not get to attack on the player phase, and enemies would surely choose units who they can actually damage to attack. Even if he does get attacked, what does it matter when he's not helping to get Wishblade?

If it lasts two or more turns, Cain's lead dwindles. Simple as that.

However, what if you use a siege tome to kill Levail? Not only are you running out of time to use them, but Blizzard and such aren't helping 4-E-3 like Bolting is. Surely you can spare two or three uses of that one, and keep the rest of your team in a defensive position while you wait for Ike to kill the BK? Turns out 4-E-2 is very slightly in Cain's favour.

From what I can gather, 4-E-1 and 4-E-2 are marginal wins for Cain, 4-E-3 is even, and 4-E-4 is another small win for the king. It comes down to how much Giffca's AS lead matters in 4-E-5.

Not much. Caineghis can't double them without Nasir, but of course, with Nasir, he can. And I can't think of many units who would benifit more than he would from this. His attack is just so high. Still, it takes up one of the spaces from which White Pool can be used.

The auroras should probably all be gone, or mostly gone, by the end of turn one anyway. Beating Ashera on the first turn isn't impossible either. No matter what kind of team you have, you can't really expect to need turn three, and without a heron, Giffca doesn't even participate in turn one. Giffca's doubling ability becomes a moot point here, too.

Somehow, I'm leaning towards Cain again.

[Florete]

If it lasts one turn, Cain wins, obviously.

Wrong. If it lasts one turn it's because Ike auto-killed the Burger King and neither of our Lions did anything for the completion of 4-E-2. Giffca's advantage here only happens when we play the chapter out a bit more because then ability to kill enemies means something. It's a tie otherwise.

However, what if you use a siege tome to kill Levail? Not only are you running out of time to use them, but Blizzard and such aren't helping 4-E-3 like Bolting is. Surely you can spare two or three uses of that one, and keep the rest of your team in a defensive position while you wait for Ike to kill the BK? Turns out 4-E-2 is very slightly in Cain's favour.

How does any of that give Mufasa an advantage? If we set up a defensive position what would've been a player phase advantage is eliminated.

From what I can gather, 4-E-1 and 4-E-2 are marginal wins for Cain, 4-E-3 is even, and 4-E-4 is another small win for the king.

Actually (Thanks Narga on this one), since I forgot about Giffca's superior performance against Lehran, 4-E-4 is more even as well. E-1 probably isn't an advantage either since most of the Generals do not have range, and so they'd suicide into Giffca on enemy phase anyway.

Not much. Caineghis can't double them without Nasir, but of course, with Nasir, he can. And I can't think of many units who would benifit more than he would from this. His attack is just so high. Still, it takes up one of the spaces from which White Pool can be used.

Yes, there's the space, which can be a pretty big advantage in this comparison given the space you have, and also the fact that Giffca can use Parity and still double instead of Nihil, which is good because Nihil is more highly contested for.

The auroras should probably all be gone, or mostly gone, by the end of turn one anyway.

Eh? I might not use Laguz royals, but I find it hard to get rid of all them even by the end of turn 2 sometimes. When you take missing and starting positions into account, I really doubt you can get rid of all of them by turn 1.

Beating Ashera on the first turn isn't impossible either. No matter what kind of team you have, you can't really expect to need turn three, and without a heron, Giffca doesn't even participate in turn one. Giffca's doubling ability becomes a moot point here, too.

It isn't impossible, but IIRC, it requires a very specific team (there's a video on Youtube of it, I think it's Vykan's) and might also require stat abusing via Battle Saves, etc.

I'm actually beginning to think Giffca should be > and not just =.

Edited November 18, 2009 by Red Fox of Fire

[nflchamp]

All this "leaning" business is just like saying, 'I'm not really sure which is better,' which is why there's an equal between them.

[dondon151]

You know, it is theoretically possible for the wins of two separate units to completely cancel out and yield the same overall value, despite being different.

Actually, it's theoretically impossible for the wins of 2 separate units to completely cancel out. If we have an arbitrary value of c assigned to character 1 (which is the sum of his advantages), then the value of the advantages of character 2, assuming that he has exactly 2 advantages, would be x1 + x2. The solution set for c = x1 + x2 would be an infinitely long line, but the entire space of possible values for x1 and x2 (that don't have to solve the solution; they just have to possibly exist) would be an infinitely vast plane.

So you have an infinity in 1 dimension compared to an infinity in 2 dimensions. This is analogous to how the the probability of choosing any specific point from an infinitely long line is theoretically 0, or the limit as x approaches infinity of the function f = 1/x (a point has 0 dimensions while a line has 1 dimension). And then, assuming that character 2 has more than 2 advantages, the entire space of possible values for x1, x2, ..., xn extends into n dimensional spaces, while the solution set for c = x1 + x2 + ... + xn would still be in 1 dimension.

Or, to put it in simpler terms, 3 + 6 = 4 + 5, but it does not equal 3.9 + 5, or 4 + 5.1, or 3.999 + 5.01, or so on. And I can add on the number of decimals infinitely and still come up with inequalities, but there is only 1 solution that solves the equality near x1 = 4 and x2 = 5. Which brings me back to the previous analogy.

Therefore, one of Giffca or Caineghis needs to be above the other.

Edited November 18, 2009 by dondon151

[Narga_Rocks]

And Giffca has an AS lead of 2 and doubles more swordmasters in 4-E-2.

4-E-2, hm?

If it lasts one turn, Cain wins, obviously. Giffca will likely not get to attack on the player phase, and enemies would surely choose units who they can actually damage to attack. Even if he does get attacked, what does it matter when he's not helping to get Wishblade?

If it lasts two or more turns, Cain's lead dwindles. Simple as that.

However, what if you use a siege tome to kill Levail? Not only are you running out of time to use them, but Blizzard and such aren't helping 4-E-3 like Bolting is. Surely you can spare two or three uses of that one, and keep the rest of your team in a defensive position while you wait for Ike to kill the BK? Turns out 4-E-2 is very slightly in Cain's favour.

If you use a siege tome and the goal is to get wishblade and kill BK, then all that matters is taking a defensive position. Chances are your tankiest characters aren't running down to attack enemies but they will block off the enemies. Regardless of what goes on, blizzard/purge/meteor (bolting unlikely and least accurate anyway, fenrir => Pelleas => oops) doesn't involve Cain so under that strategy they break even.

Also, 4-E-4 is a win for Giffca. There aren't all that many spirits in range on turn one and being able to ORKO the boss has to be worth more than Cain being able to KO a spirit on turn 1 rather than some other unit out of 17 doing it.

From what I can gather, 4-E-1 and 4-E-2 are marginal wins for Cain, 4-E-3 is even, and 4-E-4 is another small win for the king. It comes down to how much Giffca's AS lead matters in 4-E-5.

Not much. Caineghis can't double them without Nasir, but of course, with Nasir, he can. And I can't think of many units who would benifit more than he would from this. His attack is just so high. Still, it takes up one of the spaces from which White Pool can be used.

4-E-1 is a marginal win, 4-E-2 breaks even (with either strategy), 4-E-3 is even, 4-E-4 is even or in Giffca's favour, and 4-E-5 has the option of sticking parity on Giffca. Parity shouldn't be underrated. Even if Tibarn + Mia/Zihark KO a spirit anyway when both have parity. You may not have them. Plus, among units that 2RKO anyway, there may not be much difference between Cain getting Nasir and Neph getting Nasir when both 2RKO regardless. In other words, needing Nasir is a disadvantage in his comparison to Giffca.

The auroras should probably all be gone, or mostly gone, by the end of turn one anyway. Beating Ashera on the first turn isn't impossible either. No matter what kind of team you have, you can't really expect to need turn three, and without a heron, Giffca doesn't even participate in turn one. Giffca's doubling ability becomes a moot point here, too.

About the auras (aurora is their skill), really? Unless you use Rafiel I can't see more than 5 going, and probably 4 depending on team. Unless you want to leave the spirits alive, anyway. Leaving spirits alive is why people think Gareth has durability issues in 4-E-5. 3 or 4 more auras to KO on turn 2 plus Ashera herself. There are some units that combine to 2RKO with Ike. Giffca happens to not need Nasir or bexp to double her. Well, 64 mt means 58 damage, so Ike needs to pull 62 damage and thus one or both of them needs some dragon skills, but only blood tides, freeing up Nasir for the killing of auras (and if necessary Ike can two range with Nasir).

Of course, with the right team you can still have a few units twiddling their thumbs on turn 2 while Ike KOs Ashera, but that requires a lot of 34+ AS units to pull off, and there aren't all that many of them near the top of the tier list. There are a fair number, but not enough.

Somehow, I'm leaning towards Cain again.

I just like saying screw it and make them even. It is possible that they are not in fact even, but it is not impossible for them to be even.

(sigh, I take too long to type stuff)

[Florete]

Giffca happens to not need Nasir or bexp to double her. Well, 64 mt means 58 damage, so Ike needs to pull 62 damage and thus one or both of them needs some dragon skills, but only blood tides, freeing up Nasir for the killing of auras (and if necessary Ike can two range with Nasir).

To add to this, Ike's Hit is so bad he'll likely need at least one Blood Tide anyway just to have a reliable chance at hitting. I don't know if I just get unlucky a lot, but Ike always has Worst biorythm whenever I need to have him attack Ashera.

[Naglfar]

If it lasts one turn, Cain wins, obviously.

Wrong. If it lasts one turn it's because Ike auto-killed the Burger King and neither of our Lions did anything for the completion of 4-E-2. Giffca's advantage here only happens when we play the chapter out a bit more because then ability to kill enemies means something. It's a tie otherwise.

However, what if you use a siege tome to kill Levail? Not only are you running out of time to use them, but Blizzard and such aren't helping 4-E-3 like Bolting is. Surely you can spare two or three uses of that one, and keep the rest of your team in a defensive position while you wait for Ike to kill the BK? Turns out 4-E-2 is very slightly in Cain's favour.

How does any of that give Mufasa an advantage? If we set up a defensive position what would've been a player phase advantage is eliminated.

From what I can gather, 4-E-1 and 4-E-2 are marginal wins for Cain, 4-E-3 is even, and 4-E-4 is another small win for the king.

Actually (Thanks Narga on this one), since I forgot about Giffca's superior performance against Lehran, 4-E-4 is more even as well. E-1 probably isn't an advantage either since most of the Generals do not have range, and so they'd suicide into Giffca on enemy phase anyway.

Not much. Caineghis can't double them without Nasir, but of course, with Nasir, he can. And I can't think of many units who would benifit more than he would from this. His attack is just so high. Still, it takes up one of the spaces from which White Pool can be used.

Yes, there's the space, which can be a pretty big advantage in this comparison given the space you have, and also the fact that Giffca can use Parity and still double instead of Nihil, which is good because Nihil is more highly contested for.

The auroras should probably all be gone, or mostly gone, by the end of turn one anyway.

Eh? I might not use Laguz royals, but I find it hard to get rid of all them even by the end of turn 2 sometimes. When you take missing and starting positions into account, I really doubt you can get rid of all of them by turn 1.

Beating Ashera on the first turn isn't impossible either. No matter what kind of team you have, you can't really expect to need turn three, and without a heron, Giffca doesn't even participate in turn one. Giffca's doubling ability becomes a moot point here, too.

It isn't impossible, but IIRC, it requires a very specific team (there's a video on Youtube of it, I think it's Vykan's) and might also require stat abusing via Battle Saves, etc.

I'm actually beginning to think Giffca should be > and not just =.

Hm. you have a point with 4-E-1, I forgot how Burger King auto-kill eliminates the advantage for 4-E-2, must have underestimated Sephiran's ability to make a difference between the two in 4-E-4, and had no idea 4-E-5 could be that hard to eat through. But I still can't see myself needing more than two turns... perhaps you not using royals contributes to you needing a third turn. Okay, your arguments for Giffca have convinced me that Giffca > Caineghis. I mean, sure, why not? As long as we can established that they're not equal. This is Fire Emblem, people. It's too complex for units to be of exactly equal value.

[Narga_Rocks]

You know, it is theoretically possible for the wins of two separate units to completely cancel out and yield the same overall value, despite being different.

Actually, it's theoretically impossible for the wins of 2 separate units to completely cancel out. If we have an arbitrary value of c assigned to character 1 (which is the sum of his advantages), then the value of the advantages of character 2, assuming that he has exactly 2 advantages, would be x1 + x2. The solution set for c = x1 + x2 would be an infinitely long line, but the entire space of possible values for x1 and x2 (that don't have to solve the solution; they just have to possibly exist) would be an infinitely vast plane.

So you have an infinity in 1 dimension compared to an infinity in 2 dimensions. This is analogous to how the the probability of choosing any specific point from an infinitely long line is theoretically 0, or the limit as x approaches infinity of the function f = 1/x (a point has 0 dimensions while a line has 1 dimension). And then, assuming that character 2 has more than 2 advantages, the entire space of possible values for x1, x2, ..., xn extends into n dimensional spaces, while the solution set for c = x1 + x2 + ... + xn would still be in 1 dimension.

Or, to put it in simpler terms, 3 + 6 = 4 + 5, but it does not equal 3.9 + 5, or 4 + 5.1, or 3.999 + 5.01, or so on. And I can add on the number of decimals infinitely and still come up with inequalities, but there is only 1 solution that solves the equality near x1 = 4 and x2 = 5. Which brings me back to the previous analogy.

But how is it completely impossible for two units to be equal overall?

Let's start with two units that ORKO everything but 2 enemy types, have the same durability against everything, same movement, availability, etc.

On type A, unit x ORKOs and unit y does 60% damage.

On type B, unit y ORKOs and unit x does 60% damage.

x > y if A appears more frequently.

y > x if B appears more frequently.

Well, unless A appears where it can be ignored and B appears where it can't, or if your entire team pwns A except y but everybody stinks on B, or some other thing. Those pretty much result in y > x regardless, as long as there are some Bs out there.

But barring things like that, those statements should hold.

But then there should be an arrangement of A and B that makes x = y.

Shouldn't there?

[Florete]

Hm. you have a point with 4-E-1, I forgot how Burger King auto-kill eliminates the advantage for 4-E-2, must have underestimated Sephiran's ability to make a difference between the two in 4-E-4, and had no idea 4-E-5 could be that hard to eat through. But I still can't see myself needing more than two turns... perhaps you not using royals contributes to you needing a third turn. Okay, your arguments for Giffca have convinced me that Giffca > Caineghis. I mean, sure, why not? As long as we can established that they're not equal. This is Fire Emblem, people. It's too complex for units to be of exactly equal value.

Well, the problem with saying he's >, which I forgot about until now, is that saying that means the BEXP required to get Giffca his advantages might as well be free, but that might not be completely true. You've just agreed that with BEXP, Giffca wins. However, without it, he loses because he won't double Auras without Nasir and Mufasa's +3/4 player phases give him the very slight edge. It was not really knowing the cost of the BEXP that made us decide to put them as equals. I'm willing to say the cost is low enough to put Giffca above, especially since he can lower the required amount with combat, but I won't be too hasty.

[dondon151]

But how is it completely impossible for two units to be equal overall?

Let's start with two units that ORKO everything but 2 enemy types, have the same durability against everything, same movement, availability, etc.

On type A, unit x ORKOs and unit y does 60% damage.

On type B, unit y ORKOs and unit x does 60% damage.

x > y if A appears more frequently.

y > x if B appears more frequently.

Well, unless A appears where it can be ignored and B appears where it can't, or if your entire team pwns A except y but everybody stinks on B, or some other thing. Those pretty much result in y > x regardless, as long as there are some Bs out there.

But barring things like that, those statements should hold.

But then there should be an arrangement of A and B that makes x = y.

Shouldn't there?

You're also not considering how well the rest of the team performs against those 2 enemy types, because that will impact each unit's relative usefulness, as well as a number of other small factors like their positions at any given instant or whatever. And reality is not so simple that you can always change 1 thing and expect everything else to remain constant.

Anyway, I said that there was indeed an arrangement of A and B that makes x = y, which in my post was the solution set for c = x1 + x2. But there are infinitely more arrangements of A and B that do not make x = y. The solution set for c = x1 + x2 is a line, but the total space representing possible values for x1 and x2 is a plane. If you were to consider the probability that x1 and x2 satisfy the equation in geometric terms, you have the area of a line, which by definition is 0, divided by the area of the plane, which is infinite. But even, for example, if you limit the area of the plane to a finite number, say 4, the probability of x1 and x2 satisfying the equation is still 0/4 = 0.

In short, yes, there is an arrangement of A and B that makes x = y (in fact, infinitely many arrangements), but the probability of that arrangement being the actual one is 0. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Almost_surely might help you understand this too.

Edited November 18, 2009 by dondon151

[Florete]

Before I forget, last call on Rolf (T) and Sanaki. Speak up or Rolf (T) goes to Upper Mid and Sanaki goes above Lehran.