OMG it's a tier list

[Interceptor]

BK is tiered because he's a playable unit, and there are three chapters where he's really useful for efficient game completion. Also, if you think that any other unit can replicate what the BK can do it 1-E, try having Nailah kill something atop a ledge without wasting Pass. Etc. BK is also a linchpin part of the Easy Button Part 3 strategy, where you can shave turns off of Part 1 by not training scrub-bags, and the BK bails you out in PArt 3 by being awesome.

[Dat Nick]

BK is tiered because he's a playable unit, and there are three chapters where he's really useful for efficient game completion.

We disregard situations where a unit is literally necessary for beating the game.

Two chapters. Unless you're willing to explain this blatant contradiction. Either you give Edward extra credit for 1-P and 1-1 AND you give BK extra credit for 1-9 or you don't give extra credit to either of them. Can't just apply and remove the rule as you please.

Also, if you think that any other unit can replicate what the BK can do it 1-E, try having Nailah kill something atop a ledge without wasting Pass.

dunno if Pass is technically being wasted. Can't think of a whole lot of scenarios where it's actually useful, but consider it's only ever an issue on blocked ledges, of which Jill can fly up to (I think) and Nailah has any ledge that isn't sealed off.

BK is also a linchpin part of the Easy Button Part 3 strategy, where you can shave turns off of Part 1 by not training scrub-bags, and the BK bails you out in PArt 3 by being awesome.

I'll admit I forgot that one chapter in part 3. But I'm still not sure Upper Mid is a valid placement. Take Taur for instance. He godmodes 161, 162, and all of the late part 3 chapters he exists in with a master crown [Just in 1-6 he sticks out far more than BK does in 1-E] What creates a tier gap, here? Taur is better for more chapters, unless 3-6 sucks that badly.

Edited October 8, 2009 by Athena's Chest

[Interceptor]

Two chapters. Unless you're willing to explain this blatant contradiction. Either you give Edward extra credit for 1-P and 1-1 AND you give BK extra credit for 1-9 or you don't give extra credit to either of them. Can't just apply and remove the rule as you please.

It's not a tumor contradiction. From the perspective of "game is impossible without this unit", we have to disregard it, otherwise several units in the tier list would be automatic Epic tier, making for boring comparisons. However, that's not to say that they get no credit for existing in that chapter and being the best unit there, or otherwise indispensible, if that's the case. They are still contributing to efficient game completion, after all.

dunno if Pass is technically being wasted.

You lose it until 4-1 if you give it to Nailah, and ledges aren't the only places where you'd want to bypass an enemy. I don't know why everyone always pretends that it's not useful to enable to a unit to bypass enemy lines. Nailah is not so good with Pass that she's far and away the best use of it, when I can just take the BK and insta-blick ledge blockers even with a -50 HIT penalty. Sure, Pass makes killing the thieves dead easy, but I also like having it on some Part 3 unit that gets an effective mobility boost due to being able to ignore enemy lines and back-attack people, especially in 3-3 where things are tight and this can mean the difference between a 1-range kill and having to use a crappy 1-2 weapon.

Jill can fly up to (I think) and Nailah has any ledge that isn't sealed off.

All ledges are sealed off, and Jill can't fly over the walls.

I'll admit I forgot that one chapter in part 3. But I'm still not sure Upper Mid is a valid placement.

Well, I don't really care, I'm just pointing out that the "necessary for game completion" argument will get zero traction in this thread.

[Narga_Rocks]

Edward>BK if we're going to tier the BK. Because Edward is every bit as necessary to beat the game as BK.

1-P. The boss will one shot Micaiah, and he isn't afraid to move. So if Edward didn't exist, you'd never beat the game.

I'm not going to talk about 1-1 much, but in 1-P just want to say:

boss has 15 mt and 6 AS with his weapon.

Micaiah has 15 hp and 2 def and 7 AS.

Where is the one shotting happening?

Nothing moves unless you get in its range. It might take longer, and Eddie gets credit for speeding it up, but Micaiah and Leo can do it together. Also, Micaiah can just take Ed's vulnerary and since she has 10 mt against a 27hp/1res boss, she can 3HKO him.

Boss attacks, Micky counters

vulnerary

Boss attacks, Micky counters

Micky OHKOs.

20avo vs. 126 hit. He'd have to be at least 2 bio grades above her in order for him to even have a chance to survive. Also, since he's at 27 hp and 18 hp at the start of enemy phase, he isn't going to use his own vulnerary, either.

Oh, 86% at a 4 step difference in bio. 96.22%. 98.47% at a 3 step difference. 99.72% at a 2 step difference.

And if you plan it right you can just stick Leo in the way if she misses. She steps out to 2 range, attacks, misses, Leo blocks. Boss probably vulneraries at this point and then Micky vulneraries and you go back to the beginning of that, but it still works.

Also, 104 hit vs. 24 avo. Very small chance to avoid needing to use that vulnerary. (7.8% true). But it's still there. And if she is 4 steps above him, then 60% hit means a 31.6% chance of avoiding vulnerary use.

I'm kind of annoyed at everybody underestimating Micaiah over the course of the entire game. Another fun thing: you have 2 herbs and nothing but the boss does more than 10 damage to her. So, she's only using the vulnerary once (though there is a remote possibility that if she's on 2 to 4 steps worse bio than he is that she'll need to use the vulnerary twice. It's really small, though.) and may not even need it at all if she gets a bit lucky (depending on bios).

Nolan is probably required in 1-1, but Ed is helful but probably not absolutely necessary to get out inside the time limit. Even if he is, that's one chapter of being required but not being the best anyway, and another chapter (1-P) of basically saving turns and vulnerary uses but nothing else. That doesn't really compare to being the only guy not 2RKOd or worse by everything in one chapter while never taking damage and OHKOing everything except the boss (2HKO but doubling), then 2 other chapters still being indestructible and ORKOing everything.

Frankly, Nolan in 1-1 should be getting credit for his performance there (and I think he probably is getting the right amount). As Int has said before, though, there is only so much of a footprint that a unit can leave on turncounts in one chapter. As such, he doesn't get infinite credit or anything.

Ignoring the BK's 1-9 completely simply because if you didn't have him Micky would probably die seems foolish.

(oh, even if Micky was OHKOd by the boss, what about Leo? Sure, he doesn't counter, but he can just stand there herbing for 3 turns while Micky attacks from two range on player phase.)

Edited October 8, 2009 by Narga_Rocks

[Dat Nick]

boss has 15 mt and 6 AS with his weapon.

Micaiah has 15 hp and 2 def and 7 AS.

Where is the one shotting happening?

You're looking at Easy Mode stats. Pugo has 11 str on Normal/Hard, 19 atk with Iron Axe.

(oh, even if Micky was OHKOd by the boss, what about Leo? Sure, he doesn't counter, but he can just stand there herbing for 3 turns while Micky attacks from two range on player phase.)

Why would anybody bother using Leo as a meatshield? Ed gives the same results and an actual counter plus he starts further ahead of Leonardo meaning you waste less turns getting there.

Edited October 8, 2009 by Athena's Chest

[Narga_Rocks]

boss has 15 mt and 6 AS with his weapon.

Micaiah has 15 hp and 2 def and 7 AS.

Where is the one shotting happening?

You're looking at Easy Mode stats. Pugo has 11 str on Normal/Hard, 19 atk with Iron Axe.

oops. Sorry.

(oh, even if Micky was OHKOd by the boss, what about Leo? Sure, he doesn't counter, but he can just stand there herbing for 3 turns while Micky attacks from two range on player phase.)

Why would anybody bother using Leo as a meatshield? Ed gives the same results and an actual counter plus he starts further ahead of Leonardo meaning you waste less turns getting there.

So if Edward didn't exist, you'd never beat the game.

Need I say more?

(will anyway)

The point isn't that Leo/Micaiah do it equally. Clearly Edward is doing well here and he shaves more turns than if you didn't use him (lots more). I don't know why he isn't above Lucia based off this chapter alone, to be honest. No way she does more in 2-2 than he does in 1-P to reduce our turncount. That doesn't make him

necessary

, though. Anyway, I think some people use the whole "it's easy anyway so who cares" thing to undervalue Edward's affect on turncounts in this particular chapter. They do it in part 4, too (about other units' performances there). It would also apply to 1-9, I suppose, since BK makes the chapter easy and you can just follow Vykan's speedrun if you don't want Micaiah getting attacked. Even without the reference, it's still usually easy if you give up on the olivi grass and just play it carefully rather than play like I do and try to get Micaiah to attack stuff. But I'd still give BK more credit for 1-9 than Ed for 1-P. He's just better in 1-9 than Ed is in 1-P, and the competition is basically the same. Worse competition, really, since Micaiah is only ORKOd by the boss of 1-P but considerably more in 1-9 (without speed to not get doubled and robe to not get OHKOd). And Leo doesn't exist in 1-9.

(Oh, and if Leo didn't exist in 1-P either, then Micaiah has to solo the chapter and could take the draco (if no one else is around she'd have to in order to win). This does two things: allow her to be 3HKOd by the 11 mt enemies (5 out of 7 not including boss), and allow a hp or def proc to make her survive the boss' 19 mt.

At level 1, her exp is 6 or 7 vs. level 3 to 5 enemies for a hit, and 23 to 26 for a kill.

At level 2, At level 1, her exp is 5 or 6 vs. level 3 to 5 enemies for a hit, and 20 to 24 for a kill.

Considering there are 8 enemies for her to solo and until she gets a mag proc she's 4HKOing all but 2 of the 7 bandits, I'd have to think she's getting two levels. 64% of having a hp proc. 36% chance of a def proc. 76.96% chance of having enough hp/def to take a 19mt hit. So even on her own it's doable, just not guaranteed. So if Leo didn't exist then Edward would spare us from having to give Micaiah the draco and he'd shave many turns and he'd spare us the 23.04% chance of her not getting hp or def and thus having a nearly 23% chance of her dying since he attacks her twice and would only have to hit once. But even without Leo he's still not usually necessary.)

Anyway, considering 1-P and 1-1 and 1-4 I really don't see why Lucia > Edward, but oh well. I've tried arguing Edward up before. Didn't work then. Not sure that Ed gets to mid tier if we give him a more reasonable amount of credit for his early part 1, though.

edit: I wonder why they only boosted his str and not his spd. 10 AS is just one away from doubling her forcing her to pull off a 57.75% chance of getting speed in addition to the 76.96% of hp or def to make only a 44.4444% chance of not being ORKOd.

edit2: I should probably state for 1-P without Leo that I'm assuming the draco somehow showed up at turn 3 anyway. Obviously she's still 2RKOd until then by the bandits.

Edited October 8, 2009 by Narga_Rocks

[Florete]

I don't know why he isn't above Lucia based off this chapter alone, to be honest. No way she does more in 2-2 than he does in 1-P to reduce our turncount.

Anyway, considering 1-P and 1-1 and 1-4 I really don't see why Lucia > Edward, but oh well. I've tried arguing Edward up before. Didn't work then. Not sure that Ed gets to mid tier if we give him a more reasonable amount of credit for his early part 1, though.

Lower Middle (15)

Edward

Lucia

....

[Narga_Rocks]

I don't know why he isn't above Lucia based off this chapter alone, to be honest. No way she does more in 2-2 than he does in 1-P to reduce our turncount.

Anyway, considering 1-P and 1-1 and 1-4 I really don't see why Lucia > Edward, but oh well. I've tried arguing Edward up before. Didn't work then. Not sure that Ed gets to mid tier if we give him a more reasonable amount of credit for his early part 1, though.

Lower Middle (15)

Edward

Lucia

....

You moved them? Oops. Um, when did you do that? I'm guessing it was a while ago and I didn't notice. Sorry. I don't always remember precisely where they are. I think you may have done that after France and I did all that Ed talk. If so, yeah, oops.

(two major oops in one day. whoopsie)

So yeah, Athena, do you think Ed > Calill/Soren because of 1-P? (If you don't agree with the BKs position, then assuming we leave BK where he is do you think it is consistent to put Ed > Calill/Soren?)

Edited October 8, 2009 by Narga_Rocks

[_____]

You moved them? Oops. Um, when did you do that? I'm guessing it was a while ago and I didn't notice. Sorry. I don't always remember precisely where they are. I think you may have done that after France and I did all that Ed talk. If so, yeah, oops.

I don't remember a time when Lucia was above Edward. ._.;

[Narga_Rocks]

You moved them? Oops. Um, when did you do that? I'm guessing it was a while ago and I didn't notice. Sorry. I don't always remember precisely where they are. I think you may have done that after France and I did all that Ed talk. If so, yeah, oops.

I don't remember a time when Lucia was above Edward. ._.;

Well, for a while I think it was:

Lucia

Volke

Stefan

Edward

Tormod

Rolf

Leonardo

or

Lucia

Volke

Stefan

Tormod

Edward

Rolf

Leonardo

Then this:

Okay:

Moved Edward to top of Lower Mid.

Which I guess is when she did that. Wow, it's been over a month. Need more facepalms on my part:

[grandjackal]

I could see Eddie in mid. I mean, Soren and Calill are far from necessary (why IS Soren in mid and not lower mid? At least Calill eventually becomes usable, he's just a glorified archer), while Eddie actually does contribute to the game. Hell, if used he doesn't turn out half bad either. He's not stunning for his existence, but it's the fault of the enemy rather than he (damned GM boss powered laguz...). Sure, his expense is he needs effort, but at least there's a payoff along with it (like Calill, but unlike her he is rather important to quick completion of early part 1). That, and he's a usable replacement for Zihark if you care that much into putting effort into the DB due to...well, we went over that I suppose.

But yet again, it makes me wonder-what does this make of Leo? I dunno why, but I can't help but feel looking him over again and again.

[Florete]

The problem with raising Edward is his massive fail durability. Whereas someone like Calill can simply attack from range and almost never have to take a counter, Edward almost always has to take a counter if he isn't finishing an enemy off. This hurts his performance as long as you use him because there will always be a good amount of enemies that 2HKO him, probably for the entire game. He doesn't even double very often and because of his low Str base he won't even do much damage most of the time, and he also takes a while to be able to weild Steel Swords without AS loss.

Sure, he's nice to have for the first few chapters, but it's been pointed out that he's never really necessary and it comes to the point where using him is more of a hindrance than a help, even before his deployment slot is no longer free. He might be able to make Mid, but he wouldn't go very far.

[Narga_Rocks]

The problem with raising Edward is his massive fail durability. Whereas someone like Calill can simply attack from range and almost never have to take a counter, Edward almost always has to take a counter if he isn't finishing an enemy off. This hurts his performance as long as you use him because there will always be a good amount of enemies that 2HKO him, probably for the entire game. He doesn't even double very often and because of his low Str base he won't even do much damage most of the time, and he also takes a while to be able to weild Steel Swords without AS loss.

Sure, he's nice to have for the first few chapters, but it's been pointed out that he's never really necessary and it comes to the point where using him is more of a hindrance than a help, even before his deployment slot is no longer free. He might be able to make Mid, but he wouldn't go very far.

Yeah his problem is basically being 2RKOd by at least half the map until 3-12, then it happens again in 3-13 then he's probably over it and it won't happen again until the Red Dragons.(whites too)

He also has the dubious honour of being one of the few characters that are 3HKOd by all the spirits even at 20/20/20. Well, with supports he may avoid it from fire/thunder, but wind still 3HKOs him. If he had more availability in tier 2 and tier 3 and more base access while things are capped he could fix that last part, but he doesn't so he can't. At least wardwood tiles exist.

But he at least has the honour of likely having more concrete durability than Zihark in part 4 and better offence, and if Ed gets Nolan and Zihark gets Jill then he has better avoid with Caladbolg. If Zihark gets Volug or we are comparing them in parallel universes and they both have Nolan then Zihark has a bigger avo lead, but Ed has a bigger concrete durability lead. Either way, Ed still has better offensive parameters in part 4.

Personally, though, I don't think that makes up for the pains of training him in part 1 (beating Zihark in part 4 isn't a big deal to me). So I tend to look at his 1-P, 1-1, and 1-4 more than the rest of the game.

Edited October 8, 2009 by Narga_Rocks

[grandjackal]

Funny, I don't recall anyone ORKOing at early part 1 other than Sothe. Nolan certainly wasn't doing it. It's a granted that he's indurable, but there are some factors to keep in mind.

-No one has better offense prior to Zihark showing up. Yeah, he's not doubling with the steel sword for a bit, which begs the question, why are we using it at that time? Logic would dictate that iron would simply do more damage because of it. Only reason you'd use steel at that time is to finish someone off who you can't do in with iron. Moving on, he is doubling, and has crit bonus from class.

-Wrath. I know what you're gonna say, it's terrible on him. Is it? Apparently he's indurable, he would see Wrath health often. However, let's think this through. The other option is Michaiah. We have to basically have her drain health with Sacrifice. This is one turn we aren't using Wrath. Eddie on the other hand could counter with it, because he's not so paper thin that he's OHKOd or ORKOd. They knock him down to Wrath, and he smokes them. Then from there, he can wing edge it. On top of this he has a better chance to land a crit due to better skill, myrm crit,and doubling. Then factor in he has more move for more opportunities, and that I can be more lineant on his positioning, since I can heal him and most likely when he takes an attack, he's back to Wrath.

-Cancel. If his durability is such a problem, then this should help. Only other competition is Nolan, whom Eddie should have more skill than, due to more time to get levels+lower leveling giving him a faster leveling speed. There is a mindset to use with it as well. If he lands it, great. If he doesn't, chances are he's in Wrath, and can probably counter-crit to easier kill the unit, if it were a unit not near death. This means he could chip/kill a unit. If he chips, someone else can eat up what he wounded. If he killed it, grand. If Nolan had Cancel, all he did was the same thing, just he didn't take a shot, and has less a chance of killing the thing at full health, whatever it may be, as he is not doubling nor does he have the crit advantage.

-Chapters. First chapter in the game, who is the best unit there? Simply Eddie. I see no reason Michaiah should get everything he kills, and Leo comes late. She can sacrifice heal him, taking down an herb while he hacks his way through the enemy. In fact, it isn't like Michaiah is necessary to contribute to anything once we pass 1-5. She's forced, but it's not like she improves throughout the game. She promotes regardless of level, and can use staffs, meaning training her only gets you basically Rhys. The only reason we wouldn't favor Eddie for this starting chapter is if we were purposefully sandbagging him. Even then, when trained, he's still one of the better units. Better wall for the laguz than Aran for the three way that is Nolan and Sothe defense package. Basically you have no reason not to use him until Zihark shows up, which is 1-6 I believe, of which point we start easy-buttoning the game. I'd find his uses in the chapters prior far more necessary than whatever Soren and Calill are doing. Simply being one of the better characters over the course of 5 chapters is better than...Not being that. Or at least usable over the course of. One of the better characters during parts we can't just easy-mode, or at least we have no way to make them go any faster than they already are.

He should be in mid just for the sole fact he's helping us get through parts faster where we couldn't without him. I mean really, would you really say he's as mediocre as Rolf, who is most likely only good at part 4? He shouldn't even be in the same tier as them.

Perhaps again I am a bit biased towards him, but I feel his tribute earlygame should get him a place in mid at least. Not using him in hte early parts is just ludicrous.

[Narga_Rocks]

Funny, I don't recall anyone ORKOing at early part 1 other than Sothe. Nolan certainly wasn't doing it. It's a granted that he's indurable, but there are some factors to keep in mind.

-No one has better offense prior to Zihark showing up. Yeah, he's not doubling with the steel sword for a bit, which begs the question, why are we using it at that time? Logic would dictate that iron would simply do more damage because of it. Only reason you'd use steel at that time is to finish someone off who you can't do in with iron. Moving on, he is doubling, and has crit bonus from class.

-Wrath. I know what you're gonna say, it's terrible on him. Is it? Apparently he's indurable, he would see Wrath health often. However, let's think this through. The other option is Michaiah. We have to basically have her drain health with Sacrifice. This is one turn we aren't using Wrath. Eddie on the other hand could counter with it, because he's not so paper thin that he's OHKOd or ORKOd. They knock him down to Wrath, and he smokes them. Then from there, he can wing edge it. On top of this he has a better chance to land a crit due to better skill, myrm crit,and doubling. Then factor in he has more move for more opportunities, and that I can be more lineant on his positioning, since I can heal him and most likely when he takes an attack, he's back to Wrath.

-Cancel. If his durability is such a problem, then this should help. Only other competition is Nolan, whom Eddie should have more skill than, due to more time to get levels+lower leveling giving him a faster leveling speed. There is a mindset to use with it as well. If he lands it, great. If he doesn't, chances are he's in Wrath, and can probably counter-crit to easier kill the unit, if it were a unit not near death. This means he could chip/kill a unit. If he chips, someone else can eat up what he wounded. If he killed it, grand. If Nolan had Cancel, all he did was the same thing, just he didn't take a shot, and has less a chance of killing the thing at full health, whatever it may be, as he is not doubling nor does he have the crit advantage.

-Chapters. First chapter in the game, who is the best unit there? Simply Eddie. I see no reason Michaiah should get everything he kills, and Leo comes late. She can sacrifice heal him, taking down an herb while he hacks his way through the enemy. In fact, it isn't like Michaiah is necessary to contribute to anything once we pass 1-5. She's forced, but it's not like she improves throughout the game. She promotes regardless of level, and can use staffs, meaning training her only gets you basically Rhys. The only reason we wouldn't favor Eddie for this starting chapter is if we were purposefully sandbagging him. Even then, when trained, he's still one of the better units. Better wall for the laguz than Aran for the three way that is Nolan and Sothe defense package. Basically you have no reason not to use him until Zihark shows up, which is 1-6 I believe, of which point we start easy-buttoning the game. I'd find his uses in the chapters prior far more necessary than whatever Soren and Calill are doing. Simply being one of the better characters over the course of 5 chapters is better than...Not being that. Or at least usable over the course of. One of the better characters during parts we can't just easy-mode, or at least we have no way to make them go any faster than they already are.

He should be in mid just for the sole fact he's helping us get through parts faster where we couldn't without him. I mean really, would you really say he's as mediocre as Rolf, who is most likely only good at part 4? He shouldn't even be in the same tier as them.

Perhaps again I am a bit biased towards him, but I feel his tribute earlygame should get him a place in mid at least. Not using him in hte early parts is just ludicrous.

Nobody read this but France:

Hint: Compare him to Geoffrey. 1-P, 1-1, 1-4 vs. 2-3, 3-9.

Anyway, I think you are missing the fact that I.S. is retarded. They had the enemies speed up faster than Ed could. He simply isn't doubling as much. This is one of the many things that make Mia/Zihark in early PoR better than Eddie is in early part 1 of RD. Aside from ravens they typically double >80% of every map from the start of their existence. If you play it right, Mia can even double most or all of them. Eddie on the other hand has trouble doubling much of anything.

Reasonably leveled, I think Ed's lucky to double half the map with iron. And some of what he doubles are armors he barely scratches, since at times he can't even double them with steel. His trouble basically starts around 1-4 where 14 speed doubles less than half the tigers, and it never really gets better from there.

Edited October 8, 2009 by Narga_Rocks

[Florete]

Funny, I don't recall anyone ORKOing at early part 1 other than Sothe. Nolan certainly wasn't doing it. It's a granted that he's indurable, but there are some factors to keep in mind.

Like I said they were? Edward's damage output sucks because it's worse than everyone else. ORKOing has nothing to do with it.

-No one has better offense prior to Zihark showing up. Yeah, he's not doubling with the steel sword for a bit, which begs the question, why are we using it at that time? Logic would dictate that iron would simply do more damage because of it. Only reason you'd use steel at that time is to finish someone off who you can't do in with iron. Moving on, he is doubling, and has crit bonus from class.

Bullshit. As early as 1-1 Edward has doubling problems. Enemy AS ranges from 9-10, and his base is 12 with a 60% growth. Do the math. It just gets worse as you go on, like in 1-5 where you need 16-17 AS to consistently double, which Edward doesn't hit until 11-12

-Wrath. I know what you're gonna say, it's terrible on him. Is it? Apparently he's indurable, he would see Wrath health often. However, let's think this through. The other option is Michaiah. We have to basically have her drain health with Sacrifice. This is one turn we aren't using Wrath. Eddie on the other hand could counter with it, because he's not so paper thin that he's OHKOd or ORKOd. They knock him down to Wrath, and he smokes them. Then from there, he can wing edge it. On top of this he has a better chance to land a crit due to better skill, myrm crit,and doubling. Then factor in he has more move for more opportunities, and that I can be more lineant on his positioning, since I can heal him and most likely when he takes an attack, he's back to Wrath.

That's pretty lol. Edward can actually see Hit issues with Wind Edge (He'll have something like ~100 Hit mid part 1, so any avoid on enemies gives him problems) and he can't even always 3HKO, so there are times when a crit from Wind Edge won't even kill, and his durability has now been brought down to Laura level.

Wrath can actually hurt him. If you're expecting him to hold one enemy down, he might activate Wrath on it and let another enemy in, and bye-bye Edward.

-Cancel. If his durability is such a problem, then this should help. Only other competition is Nolan, whom Eddie should have more skill than, due to more time to get levels+lower leveling giving him a faster leveling speed. There is a mindset to use with it as well. If he lands it, great. If he doesn't, chances are he's in Wrath, and can probably counter-crit to easier kill the unit, if it were a unit not near death. This means he could chip/kill a unit. If he chips, someone else can eat up what he wounded. If he killed it, grand. If Nolan had Cancel, all he did was the same thing, just he didn't take a shot, and has less a chance of killing the thing at full health, whatever it may be, as he is not doubling nor does he have the crit advantage.

I'm not opposed to Edward using it, but the advantage is minimal. You already don't want him attacking when he can be countered, and a <20% chance to prevent a counter is not reliable in the least.

-Chapters. First chapter in the game, who is the best unit there? Simply Eddie.

This has already been acknowledged and factored in.

In fact, it isn't like Michaiah is necessary to contribute to anything once we pass 1-5. She's forced, but it's not like she improves throughout the game. She promotes regardless of level, and can use staffs, meaning training her only gets you basically Rhys.

She wants more Mag for more powerful Thani bombing, which is actually very useful in part 1 and occasionally in part 3.

I'd find his uses in the chapters prior far more necessary than whatever Soren and Calill are doing.

He's not necessary at all after 1-P. He's useful, but only as useful as anyone who doesn't take a deployment slot can be.

[WeaponsofMassConstruction]

I'll admit I forgot that one chapter in part 3. But I'm still not sure Upper Mid is a valid placement. Take Taur for instance. He godmodes 161, 162, and all of the late part 3 chapters he exists in with a master crown [Just in 1-6 he sticks out far more than BK does in 1-E] What creates a tier gap, here? Taur is better for more chapters, unless 3-6 sucks that badly.

This is where I was going with the BK 1-9 question, but then my connection died. <_<

[Narga_Rocks]

Bullshit. As early as 1-1 Edward has doubling problems. Enemy AS ranges from 9-10, and his base is 12 with a 60% growth. Do the math. It just gets worse as you go on, like in 1-5 where you need 16-17 AS to consistently double, which Edward doesn't hit until 11-12

Stupid I.S. Can't even make a myrm work properly. What purpose is there to a myrm that can't double 80% of the map?

That's pretty lol. Edward can actually see Hit issues with Wind Edge (He'll have something like ~100 Hit mid part 1, so any avoid on enemies gives him problems) and he can't even always 3HKO, so there are times when a crit from Wind Edge won't even kill, and his durability has now been brought down to Laura level.

Even Zihark has issues hitting with the wind edge. I've had Z miss twice on a double. Since Ed isn't doubling... Also, 10 wt weighs him down for a while and 6 mt with his <=10 str means <=16 mt. I'd say "can't even always 3HKO" is being generous.

Wrath can actually hurt him. If you're expecting him to hold one enemy down, he might activate Wrath on it and let another enemy in, and bye-bye Edward.

Yeah, attempting to level the tier 1 guys generally requires walling and facing multiple enemies, so wrath means he can clear space and die.

She wants more Mag for more powerful Thani bombing, which is actually very useful in part 1 and occasionally in part 3.

My poor poor Micaiah. How can somebody so high on the tier list be so underrated by so many? I agree with you Red Fox, more magic = better Micaiah = better team. Also, for her to consistently OHKO armors she needs a few levels along the way and to get to 20. 14 magic and thus 38 +2 mt I'm pretty sure misses the OHKO on lots of armours, 14 magic is level 10. Then if she has 21 magic after promotion and 31 mt with thani against like 6 res tigers. Doing 25 damage is better than what most of the team is capable of doing. Zihark needs at least a forged steel to beat that. Nolan would need 45 mt to do that, so even Tarvos ain't getting him there. I suppose a crit from Leo beats it. Volug should beat it. Obviously BK beats it. I count 3 so far, one of which is harder to train than Micaiah. I might be missing some, though.

Also, in 4-P with an actual magic stat she'll probably OHKO just about any paladin that's been hit by almost anything on your team.

He's not necessary at all after 1-P. He's useful, but only as useful as anyone who doesn't take a deployment slot can be.

I'm uncertain about how necessary he is in 1-1 (10 turns for 3 units might be difficult), but in 1-4 he is at least better at the job than the next best choice (Aran).

[nflchamp]

He's not stunning for his existence, but it's the fault of the enemy rather than he (damned GM boss powered laguz...).

In my opinion, anything that involves how difficult enemies are shouldn't even be brought up when speaking of a units preformance. If someone sucks in a chapter, they suck in a chapter. No making excuses.

[Ether]

Since Micky id being brought up,perhaps she could move over Elincia?

I would say ThaniBomb/Sacrifice in part 1 and healing/nuke in part 3 >>> Bein cool in 2-E and getting okay offense in part 4.perhaps she might even pull a tier gap.

[Sol Hiryu]

I don't think it's that quite clear cut. I can agree with Micaiah over Elincia on the principle that Micaiah is helping out more in harder chapters than Elincia is, but it's not quite enough for a tier gap, especially given Micaiah's horrendously late promotion and pretty average part 4. Plus the fact that Elincia is a mounted healer, which does give her a better edge in their part 4 comparison.

[Ether]

I don't think it's that quite clear cut. I can agree with Micaiah over Elincia on the principle that Micaiah is helping out more in harder chapters than Elincia is, but it's not quite enough for a tier gap, especially given Micaiah's horrendously late promotion and pretty average part 4. Plus the fact that Elincia is a mounted healer, which does give her a better edge in their part 4 comparison.

Micky's part 4 isn't than much worse than Elincia.

4-P is a loladin swarm,so Thani is awesome,and 4-3 is a desert with status staves,which is again,perfect for micaiah.

They both heal,but Micky's chapters are harder,so her healing is probably more valuable,not to mention Tibs 4 stars devaluates Elincia's healing even more.

Elincia is good in 4-5 because she can quad by then,but she's not too hot in 4-2,since she doesn't double naturally,and ~36 physical Mt isn't impressive.

Then in 4-E,Micky is forced,and has high Mag,so she heals much better than Elincia. 4-E-1 has tons of generals,so Micky probably has better offense here,and then from 4-E-3 onward Micky is nigh invincible with Nosferatu,which is > Elincia being better against Aura's.

I would even say that Micky wins part 4.

[_____]

4-3 is a desert with status staves,which is again,perfect for micaiah.

One of which is a Silence staff which has a perfectly reasonable chance of silencing Micaiah, making her useless for 5 turns. That's not perfect for her.

[Ether]

4-3 is a desert with status staves,which is again,perfect for micaiah.

One of which is a Silence staff which has a perfectly reasonable chance of silencing Micaiah, making her useless for 5 turns. That's not perfect for her.

lolRes.And if no enemies are around,she can equip restore if she's worried about it so much,since loldesert means enemies have lolmove.

[Narga_Rocks]

4-3 is a desert with status staves,which is again,perfect for micaiah.

One of which is a Silence staff which has a perfectly reasonable chance of silencing Micaiah, making her useless for 5 turns. That's not perfect for her.

It always goes after Laura. Maybe it's because my Laura is a higher level or has less res or something. If it's just the res, then it's fine because Laura existing will draw the guy regardless of level. And 5 turns? Equip a restore staff. She misses out on 2 player phases. Except given the existence of the sleep staff user, check this:

equip restore staff on turn 1. Didn't get to attack stuff.

slept, silenced.

restored. Restores sleepy Haar (or whomever).

slept, silenced.

restored. Restores sleepy Haar.

So she wasn't doing something helpful for 1 player phase, and she wouldn't be tanking on enemy phase anyway.

So not a problem, like Ether said it isn't.

As for Elincia in 4-E-1: She grinds Micaiah's offence into dust. Micaiah doesn't OHKO with thani, and doesn't double. Elincia could be high enough leveled to ORKO at least the weaker generals (and possibly even the stronger ones), but even if she isn't, she's likely doing at least 40 hp damage to their 50 to 52 hp and has 4 chances to stun. Compared to Micaiah's chance of Flare?

I do like Micaiah's immortality in 4-E-3, though. It doesn't do much damage to whites, but still enough to get back to full hp. Elincia gets wyrmslayers and ORKOs the whites, though, and has 9 move and canto. Also, 2 shots at stun for wyrmslayer on reds, or 4 chances to stun with amiti. She's probably not 6HKOing them, though, but an 8HKO would only require two stuns and even one stun makes the thing utterly useless. They both have use here.

As for the spirits, Elincia has amiti and 9 move and canto. She can basically ORKO any spirit almost anywhere (45 mt with 4 hits ORKOs anything on cover(1), and with a +mt support ORKOs all but fire even on cover(2), and cover(2) is +15 def). Lack of 2 range with that option is minor since we'd only use it to KO the last spirit that moves. Also, Alondite should ORKO any spirit not on tiles that give defence, so those reinforcement spirits that pop in on wardwood, or the ones on turn 1 wardwood. Still has 2 range for enemy phase. Micaiah needs 39 magic and a blessed purge and 29 speed and standing next to Nasir to ORKO from a distance. Elincia is arguably better than Tibarn in 4-E-1 and 4-E-4 and even 4-E-5 thanks to Amiti. And she can use fortify, even if for not as many hp as Micaiah would restore.

And in 4-2 she should be quadding by turn 6 or so anyway, and two-shotting swordmasters. With Lucia's bond she's even immune to crits, daunt accomplishes that too.

I don't think there is a tier gap, fun though it would be to see Micaiah in high. But I don't picture Micaiah in high.