OMG it's a tier list

[Florete]

But there are two ways to rank Nephenee (T). First way is that we assume that other transfers are in play, like Mia or Ike or Titania. Nephenee (T) is not only nothing special in this scenario, but now we have more Speedwings to play with. Second way is that we assume that Nephenee (T) is the only transfer unit deployed in the GMs. Now she's really good relative to everyone, even some of the better units.

Wouldn't that be reflected in her position above or below those characters, though? If two characters are in the same team, they face the same enemies and can be compared directly. So, if Nephenee (T) were somehow better than Mia, we'd see that in the list as Nephenee (T) > Mia > Nephenee. Likewise, if Boyd (T) was somehow h4x enough to be better than Nephenee (T), we'd see something like Boyd (T) > Nephenee (T) > Mia > Nephenee > Boyd.

And when you get to direct comparisons it doesn't look as easy either. If we compare Nephenee (T) to Mia, shouldn't we assume both are used at the same time and therefore we can't say Nephenee has a transfer team while Mia doesn't?

Basically I think it comes down to the cost of resources. If a lot of transfer people are deployed, the cost of things changes, which in turn changes how good someone is relative to the army.

I always saw that as an advantage to the character no longer taking the resource, like how Titania no longer needs a Speedwing, so Titania (T)'s team has a doubling Haar or whatever that Speedwing now does, and that's an advantage for her, not the character now assumed to get the resource. Like, if we did Mia (T) vs. Titania (T), neither one should be needing a Speedwing so the disadvantage Titania had of previously needing a Wing is gone, which was the basis of me putting Titania (T) above Mia (T).

I'm going to need to think this over quite a bit more...

[Narga_Rocks]

What I meant is that we're never going to rank Nephenee in terms of (T) characters, because Nephenee's current ranking has been predicated on her comparisons against other non-transfers.

But there are two ways to rank Nephenee (T). First way is that we assume that other transfers are in play, like Mia or Ike or Titania. Nephenee (T) is not only nothing special in this scenario, but now we have more Speedwings to play with. Second way is that we assume that Nephenee (T) is the only transfer unit deployed in the GMs. Now she's really good relative to everyone, even some of the better units.

Basically I think it comes down to the cost of resources. If a lot of transfer people are deployed, the cost of things changes, which in turn changes how good someone is relative to the army.

Cost of speedwings goes down. One speedwing that can be taken without the opportunity cost of not giving it to Titania. Not sure about the other items. Not even sure if anybody shows up to rival Mia's claim on adept. Even if they do, she's hitting her 23 str cap much sooner on the transfer version of herself, and starts ORKOing stuff earlier. As early as 3-5 it's actually possible to be ORKOing paladins 100%. Warriors in 3-7 and 3-8.

She even becomes a potential user of the DB's 3-6 crown if you give up on extra def/lck/res that could be had over her Vanilla counterpart.

So even the cost of adept could potentially go down.

I think the only idea that works is to assume that some of the other units in the party are also transfer units, but none in specific. So with that being the case, we can't say which items suddenly cost less, so the transfer unit in question doesn't suddenly get cheaper access to a stat booster/skill unless its new stats alone justify the giving. However it also means there are no gods among mortals because some of the other units are transfer characters. Well, Ike (T) is still a god among mortals regardless of whether there are other transfer units or not. I suppose more units are in top, but he still gets his own tier. I mean the rest of them. And if we are considering putting unit A (T) over unit B (N), then clearly for the purpose of the comparison unit B (T) doesn't exist.

[grandjackal]

Last time we were talking about Leo I specifically told you he needs to be 15/1. If he's not doubling tigers, he's not amazing. It helps if he's 19/1 or whatever it was and can actually 4HKO them, but with ~90% crit (assuming wrath) and dropping them to like 4 hp or something silly (after one crit and one normal hit) it doesn't matter much if he's not 19/1. At anything less than 15 AS pre-lugh he's not doubling tigers, hence one shot at critting to leave them with >15 hp anyway and if he doesn't crit he does like 11 damage or something. Probably less since a 10/1 Leo has less str. His usefulness is basically cut down to attacking untransformed laguz and hitting them hard but still not KOing them. Also, he needs to find a level 14 Cat if he wants to get down to wrath hp instead of dying or if he wants to 'tank' with his ability to not counter and then attack other things if he gets healed or if the cat is untransformed (doesn't need trading). I suppose he might have enough mt to 3HKO a cat, so at least he's over 60% on killing them, but that's not as useful as tiger-rape. Especially since when he doesn't crit they still have >20 hp remaining.

He can't not double, the brave bow is in 3-6. Slap Beastfoe on him, that's 27x2mt. Level 10/1 Leo has 11 Str, so that's 38x2mt. Factor in a support, +2, that's 40x2 Mt. One rounds all cats. Weakest tigers he leaves at 4 HP, strongest at 11-12 HP. Energy drop, I can add the weakest tigers to the death list, leaving the strongest to 7-8 HP. For a dude promoting at such a low level, this is pretty amazing.

Hell, he doesn't even need the brave bow unless you wanna go jeigen utility on tigers. Just a crossbow.

He's not walling, but he's still capable of this. Since he's only level 10, this means he can be this strong while not weakening the rest of your DB army in the long term from part 1.

And 1-E involves Ed having almost no avo of any meaning and needing to be promoted because of all the 17 AS enemies (though I suppose the 16AS enemies are doubled by a level 17/18 Ed, if it's possible to get him that high) and having about the same mt with steel sword/steel forge as Leo does with steel bow/steel forge. (Leo has water, Ed is stuck in light x earth if he wants to be decent later). Leo could potentially have more mt. Level 16 Leo vs. level 17 Ed has 1 more mt assuming a forge with the same bonus and Leo having an A support with notMicaiah and Eddie supporting Nolan.

Basically, they do about the same thing, probably only attack player phase since enemy phase is better spent using Volug or Sothe to weaken for the guys like Edward and Leo to get kills. I suppose the brave sword exists, but short of that Leo attacks from 2 range and doesn't need healing the entire chapter and does as much as Ed does if Ed doesn't get a brave, and does almost as much if he does get a brave. Of course, this assumes Leo is brought within 3 levels of Ed (no more than 3 levels down, otherwise Leo starts losing one-hit damage) and is given a more expensive forge.

Brave Sword+Cancel

But I see your point.

As for whether or not it goes faster...raising Leo (to 19/1 for the 4HKO of 20 def tigers) means another DB probably didn't reach tier 2, so does Leo have a bigger effect than the other guy would have? Well, the goal is KOing laguz, and most of the time he'll do on his own what it takes 3 or 4 other guys to do: take out a tiger. But assuming an 11 turn clear he's probably only taking out 9 tigers at most, since the first turn has no wrath and 90% means ~9 out of 10 die. More turns, more kills, less turns, fewer kills. I'm not sure he's cutting more than 1 with his existence vs. some other dbers existence. Maybe 2. Rolf can get 61 mt easier than Shinon, though. Not sure if that will ever cut turns by that point considering the other units you can have. And he needs 20/14 or 20/15 just for 34 speed anyway.

I suppose he makes it easier to KO the hawks in 3-13, though, considering the archer on the ballista can miss. That isn't a turn thing, but it is an assurance of victory thing. You could maybe argue Leo > Rolf, but I like Rolf so I won't agree.

Not sure when the BK rejoins, but in the time, he could have reduced the number of needed kills by...I'm gonna say 5, as I think it takes 5 turns. That's 5 more enemies the BK doesn't need to kill. Since it's obvious that the BK doesn't kill all laguz immediately the next turn, this does buy me time. Even still, Leo can still insta-blick a cat because he can, so he can kill 6, then 7, then 8...

3-13, there are 3 hawks that endanger your flawless victory. Even base Leo can ballistae a bastard, but obviously some levels for accuracy would be nice. Promoted though, they can't OHKO him, so they need to OR. They can't OR, because he has crossbows. Nolan could too, and an archer could ballistae the third hawk. Solidified victory. Another detail on it is that once that's said and done, he can still freely go around and just chip shit with a random bow to finish something off, or weaken for another character (Jill). In fact, he has that prior as well in 3-6.

3-12 I wish there was data, but Leo against beorc with a support is packing 21x2 mt. Not fantastic, but it's not bad either for a dude not attacking directly. Even someone with 12 Def would be eating 9x2 damage, 18. That could easily be a Halberdier 2RKOd. 20/5 Nolan just avoided a counter with a steel axe.

3-1, Rolf with a max mt Steel forge is 3RKOing warriors, the second least durable units on the map. Basically the worst offense on your team. Say what you will, I don't think Leo starts off the worst character on the DB, at least not on so noticeably a level. In fact, a max might iron forge to a level 7 Leo (3 levels, 4 chapters) with a C support is packing 21 Mt. Miccy at level 5 (4 levels) has 13 Mt with Light. Tigers have 10 defense, 2 Res. They have the same exact offense, but cats have 4 Res and 8 Defense, so Leo actually can pull off better offense with less effort. Leo never has to deal with being the worst DB unit because he never is outside of perhaps early part 1 where you're either Nolan and Sothe or you aren't. Rolf on the other hand has to deal with being the worst GM until you crown him at level 10. A crown and 9 levels when you're the worst GM until Lyre shows her ass up is far less forgiveable than 6 levels and a seal for a DB who is basically ok.

@ Interceptor

-It is possible, but you ned Leo to block the boss's path and suck down vulneries while Miccy pegs him with light. This is by far the most retarded idea ever, but it works.

-Eddie 2RKOs 5 units. Eddie fights, counters on enemy phase. 1 turn. Eddie attacks, Miccy chips and kills. Both used their turn, so end turn. Both took 1 turn. 3 of them Eddie 2RKOs but needs 4 hits rather than 3. Eddie attacks, Miccy chips, still didn't kill the enemy anyways. These three, Eddie has no problem just sucking down a vulnery. Eddie gets 9 exp a hit, 19 a kill. First two, this would equal 56 exp. The next two at the chokepoint would be the same, he levels there. Ridiculous to assume he gets nothing on a level, it's quite possible to proc HP, Str, Skill, Speed, even Luck is a coin flip. Procs the Str, he can 2RKO the last two guys like he did the others. He needs help to kill the boss quickly, but you can't kill the boss quickly without Eddie. So, I dunno how Eddie can slow us down even under a solo outside of perhaps luck.

-Because it's there, and you are ignoring it. He doesn't have to jump to top tier for one accomplishment, but it IS an accomplishment. Can you honestly say Soren is doing anything as important?

Edited October 13, 2009 by France

[Narga_Rocks]

And when you get to direct comparisons it doesn't look as easy either. If we compare Nephenee (T) to Mia, shouldn't we assume both are used at the same time and therefore we can't say Nephenee has a transfer team while Mia doesn't?

Well, there is smash's topic in the general forum. Nephenee(T) doesn't have to exist at the same time as Mia(N), so Mia(N) some of the time could have no transfer characters with which to compete. But that's a little difficult to make a case then on who is better (well, Mia(N) > Neph(T) should be obvious, but this is assuming they were close I suppose) because it's like apples and oranges, so you might have to compare Mia(N) to a team of units that are potentially getting transfer bonuses while she isn't.

I always saw that as an advantage to the character no longer taking the resource, like how Titania no longer needs a Speedwing, so Titania (T)'s team has a doubling Haar or whatever that Speedwing now does, and that's an advantage for her, not the character now assumed to get the resource. Like, if we did Mia (T) vs. Titania (T), neither one should be needing a Speedwing so the disadvantage Titania had of previously needing a Wing is gone, which was the basis of me putting Titania (T) above Mia (T).

I'm going to need to think this over quite a bit more...

How about the disadvantage of Titania needing to support either Ike (move issues and restriction issues and doubling in part 4 issues) or Oscar (Oscar gets attacked more and doesn't double all that much and does less damage than Titania even when he doubles)? That was a pretty big reason in my mind for Mia > Titania.

Titania still has that disadvantage, she just no longer has to have the utility of her speed boost compared to the utility of another units' speed boost. And Mia still has her boosts compared to what others can get out of it. However, Titania still has durability issues or perfection of support issues (solving one creates another). I suppose she could take the speedwing anyway and throw warriors and halbs into the pile of doubled dead enemies in part 3, making her win bigger, except in the case of Mia(T) it doesn't matter as much since Mia is now ORKOing so much more. So, Titania gets better in part 3, but so does Mia. Then in part 4 you still get the whole doubling everything in existence compared to not thing going on, and any move advantage in 4-1 canceled by 4-4, and move in 4-E-1 and 4-E-3 and 4-E-5 not being that major and Mia being generally better is.

[grandjackal]

Hmmm...A thought just occured.

Has anyone assumed to pre-promote DB units?

I know we assumed Illyana, but 14 AS doesn't double much if anything in 1-5 (realistic time to assume sealing, you get your first in 1-4). Someone like Aran could have become that much tankier, and gotten +5 crit. Leo could have +10 crit, his rates would be 17-19, which means generally 9-11 displayed. Same with Eddie, though Eddie with his 16 AS would be doubling. Nolan could, but...All he really gains is like a stat blanket. No crit skills, not enough speed to double off the bat...You get it.

I dunno, maybe I'm out of my gourd on this one.

In fact...

10/1 Aran has 27 HP, 14 Def. A C support for 1-5, that's +1. He's not doubling, but the only one who could be is probably Eddie. He'd have a minimum of 34 avoid. Lowest accuracy on the map is 65 displayed, so it's not reliable. However, strongest physical attacker has 26 Mt. Even supportless, that's a 3RKO of 11 damage. Average attack rate is about 18-24. So a 7-3RKO. Sothe has 35 HP, 14 Def. So he faces basically a 6-3RKO. Yes. Aran can be, no shit, more durable than Sothe as soon as 1-5. Concretely anyways. Nolan can't even pull these numbers that soon. 4 Res+1 is a 3RKO from the mage group with their 15 Atk.

Aran has 13 Str, 7+5 crit, so he will have about 5-4 displayed. Steel lance is 23 mt. This 2RKOs everything but 1 fighter on the map. If I got a +1 ATK support, kiss his ass goodbye too.

You could consider it payment for him having bad luck against cats.

Basically he could seal and be better than Nolan, basically your best DB at that point in time outside of Sothe and Volug.

Edited October 13, 2009 by France

[Silith]

Getting back to Leonardo. I once did a PT letting him get all the kills in the Db chapter (except 1-9). He can easily do 3-6 and 3-12 alone with crossbows and Beastslayer.

[tehnikhil]

Well, getting back to my small side arguement of Lethe vs Kurth, think about how insane your units should be at that point. Assuming that we are going to bring some of the best units you have to endgame that are reasonable to train, that means 5 royals who are RNG proof (except maybe nealsala, but he is still awesome), Jill, Nolan, Zihark, Mia, Shinon, Gatrie, Titania, and maybe a few others like Janaff are possibilities. Which of those guys actually need the def boost? Although I am not going to bring up skill %'s yet and stuff, we all know that Gatrie is a tanky beast, Titania and anyone with canto is moving around the place instead of tanking (except for maybe Haar, but he is a beast in def anyways), Shinon has a good def growth and is an archer anyways who can shoot at 3 range, the royals shoudl be overly dodgy and tanky, and then Mia/Zihark are going to be dodgy. Nolan and Sothe may be the only guys who can use him. Sothe won't be doin much to anything since he fails at damaging. Nolan has a high hp count, so although the 5 def can help, it really isn't necessary. We do have healing items too taht heal a major 40 hp too, so he isn't doing all that much to help.

Lethe, as agreed on, is helpful for 2-2. She can beat up some enemies and when she doesn't kill them, guys like Neph, Brom, and others with potential can finish them off for the kill exp. 2-E, she isn't completely unsalvagable yet. She can still do some small-decent enemies to enemies. This small damage can be what helps Neph, Brom, Marcia, and Calill be able to 2RKO or 1RKO enemies. Lethe is good in 2-2 for helping in a few ways to finish that chapter faster and get that 7 turn count. In both of the chapters, she is also a utility person who is there to help your good guys train and take kills. In 2-E, by the time you have mostly generals for enemies, Haar shoudl be well on his way to smashing Ludvek to little, tiny pieces to get teh max BEXP.

Also, for the olivi grass thing: First of all, we have 5 laguz stones to pass around. Of course, we may as well save those, but they are always an option. Next, we have 8 grasses for 2-2, which can be split among your 3 laguz for that chapter, and then another 8 more in 2-E that can be found next to those barels on the left side. That should be enough for part 2. COme part 3, you are going to be using only teh hawks and ranulf to fight. They always have olivi grass waiting for you to buy at the shops, so that shoudln't be a problem. It doesn't matter if she is the worst canidate for using the grass; you never actually have a shortage anyways.

[Interceptor]

Wouldn't that be reflected in her position above or below those characters, though? If two characters are in the same team, they face the same enemies and can be compared directly. So, if Nephenee (T) were somehow better than Mia, we'd see that in the list as Nephenee (T) > Mia > Nephenee. Likewise, if Boyd (T) was somehow h4x enough to be better than Nephenee (T), we'd see something like Boyd (T) > Nephenee (T) > Mia > Nephenee > Boyd.

Sort of but not really. See below.

And when you get to direct comparisons it doesn't look as easy either. If we compare Nephenee (T) to Mia, shouldn't we assume both are used at the same time and therefore we can't say Nephenee has a transfer team while Mia doesn't?

Therein lies the rub. I am against normal tier units being compared with transfer units deployed, because all of the arguments made thus far were without transfers, and I really don't feel like arguing everything all over again to account for the possiblity that a non-transfer unit being compared might have transfers on its team.

So I guess that this is an argument for transfer characters existing in a void.

I always saw that as an advantage to the character no longer taking the resource, like how Titania no longer needs a Speedwing, so Titania (T)'s team has a doubling Haar or whatever that Speedwing now does, and that's an advantage for her, not the character now assumed to get the resource. Like, if we did Mia (T) vs. Titania (T), neither one should be needing a Speedwing so the disadvantage Titania had of previously needing a Wing is gone, which was the basis of me putting Titania (T) above Mia (T).

Narga articulated my point better than I did. We aren't comparing units deployed together, we're comparing them as seperate armies. The straight Mia(T) vs. Titania(T) comparison works so long as you don't start thinking about who else is in Mia(T) or Titania(T)'s army. It goes beyond the fact that Titania(T) isn't taking a Wing like Titania. Ike(T), for example, makes everyone look stupid, to the extent that I'm not even sure he cares about a support partner anymore. Is he on Mia(T)'s team?

I think that the make-up of a transfer character's team is pretty important. It's not entirely realistic, however, to assume that the transfer character exists in a void, since just making one means that you have antoher likely half-dozen or more in the same file.

It's a tough call, I keep changing which one I favor the more I think about it.

Edited October 13, 2009 by Interceptor

[Shadow Mir]

Well, getting back to my small side arguement of Lethe vs Kurth, think about how insane your units should be at that point. Assuming that we are going to bring some of the best units you have to endgame that are reasonable to train, that means 5 royals who are RNG proof (except maybe nealsala, but he is still awesome), Jill, Nolan, Zihark, Mia, Shinon, Gatrie, Titania, and maybe a few others like Janaff are possibilities. Which of those guys actually need the def boost? Although I am not going to bring up skill %'s yet and stuff, we all know that Gatrie is a tanky beast, Titania and anyone with canto is moving around the place instead of tanking (except for maybe Haar, but he is a beast in def anyways), Shinon has a good def growth and is an archer anyways who can shoot at 3 range, the royals shoudl be overly dodgy and tanky, and then Mia/Zihark are going to be dodgy. Nolan and Sothe may be the only guys who can use him. Sothe won't be doin much to anything since he fails at damaging. Nolan has a high hp count, so although the 5 def can help, it really isn't necessary. We do have healing items too taht heal a major 40 hp too, so he isn't doing all that much to help.

Lethe, as agreed on, is helpful for 2-2. She can beat up some enemies and when she doesn't kill them, guys like Neph, Brom, and others with potential can finish them off for the kill exp. 2-E, she isn't completely unsalvagable yet. She can still do some small-decent enemies to enemies. This small damage can be what helps Neph, Brom, Marcia, and Calill be able to 2RKO or 1RKO enemies. Lethe is good in 2-2 for helping in a few ways to finish that chapter faster and get that 7 turn count. In both of the chapters, she is also a utility person who is there to help your good guys train and take kills. In 2-E, by the time you have mostly generals for enemies, Haar shoudl be well on his way to smashing Ludvek to little, tiny pieces to get teh max BEXP.

Also, for the olivi grass thing: First of all, we have 5 laguz stones to pass around. Of course, we may as well save those, but they are always an option. Next, we have 8 grasses for 2-2, which can be split among your 3 laguz for that chapter, and then another 8 more in 2-E that can be found next to those barels on the left side. That should be enough for part 2. COme part 3, you are going to be using only teh hawks and ranulf to fight. They always have olivi grass waiting for you to buy at the shops, so that shoudln't be a problem. It doesn't matter if she is the worst canidate for using the grass; you never actually have a shortage anyways.

Again, Lethe's gauge limits her flexibility.

As for the bold:

1. There's no turn limit on max BEXP in 2-E.

2. Ludveck has a crit chance on Haar. Meaning if you're unlucky, it'll be HAAR that gets smashed to bits.

WRT olivi grass: When you only have one and you have three laguz units who'd like to use some, that's a problem. And finding the Olivi Grass in 2-E shouldn't be considered a guarantee.

[Florete]

Therein lies the rub. I am against normal tier units being compared with transfer units deployed, because all of the arguments made thus far were without transfers, and I really don't feel like arguing everything all over again to account for the possiblity that a non-transfer unit being compared might have transfers on its team.

So I guess that this is an argument for transfer characters existing in a void.

Yeah, I think I'm getting what you're saying now. Aside from this:

It's not entirely realistic, however, to assume that the transfer character exists in a void, since just making one means that you have antoher likely half-dozen or more in the same file.

I think assuming the rest of the team isn't (T) is the best way to go about it. At this point this looks like the better of two evils to me, though I'd like to hear some other thoughts on the matter before making the decision.

In a realistic sense, we won't normally be transferring more than ~10 characters, so the majority of the team probably wouldn't have the bonuses anyway.

God dammit, this is more complicated than I thought it would be.

[Narga_Rocks]

Again, Lethe's gauge limits her flexibility.

As for the bold:

1. There's no turn limit on max BEXP in 2-E.

2. Ludveck has a crit chance on Haar. Meaning if you're unlucky, it'll be HAAR that gets smashed to bits.

Why does everyone assume Haar is smashing Ludveck anyway? As far as I'm aware, I'm one of the few that is assuming Haar is getting the 2-3 wing. Without it he doesn't have the speed to double Ludveck without 6 or 7 levels or getting extremely speed blessed. A single hit from Haar if you can't get Leanne down there isn't killing the boss. Considering layouts and enemies in the way, Leanne could easily be used just to get to Ludveck. Or used vigoring Heather and getting the shield or something.

WRT olivi grass: When you only have one and you have three laguz units who'd like to use some, that's a problem. And finding the Olivi Grass in 2-E shouldn't be considered a guarantee.

What else is Heather doing here anyway? Iron knife has a whopping 2mt, so with Heather's str that's 19mt with a ledge advantage. Turn 2 she can step on the olivi grass square, and she's got a really high chance of picking it up. Even if she doesn't, 1 or 2 turns later? Is she really doing more elsewhere this early in the map? Unless you are trying to speed through in 5 turns or less while still getting the draco, I'm not seeing just how she's not able to get the olivi grass before other commitments pull her away.

He can't not double, the brave bow is in 3-6. Slap Beastfoe on him, that's 27x2mt. Level 10/1 Leo has 11 Str, so that's 38x2mt. Factor in a support, +2, that's 40x2 Mt. One rounds all cats. Weakest tigers he leaves at 4 HP, strongest at 11-12 HP. Energy drop, I can add the weakest tigers to the death list, leaving the strongest to 7-8 HP. For a dude promoting at such a low level, this is pretty amazing.

Hell, he doesn't even need the brave bow unless you wanna go jeigen utility on tigers. Just a crossbow.

He's not walling, but he's still capable of this. Since he's only level 10, this means he can be this strong while not weakening the rest of your DB army in the long term from part 1.

Sigh. Opportunity cost, remember? There is nearly zero if he's at the level to use wrath. Thus, we can look at his performance with wrath without really considering much about what other units can do with it in this chapter. That's rather different from beastfoe where Nolan can grab a bowgun and replicate exactly (potential hit rate differences aside) what Leo is doing to the letter. This is similar to the two snickers example I talked about a while ago. Point is, Leo can't get too much utility out of it. Basically, if he goes from 1 to 9 with beastfoe and Nolan goes from 4 to 9, Leo's probably better off with it since the team gets more in total, but he's not getting his entire 8. (making it a little different then the snickers example) I don't like hypothetical numbers much for non-hypotheticals, but I thought I'd throw them out anyway and the point should be made well enough.

With wrath, though, he gets it all. The only benefit to your suggestion is that he didn't take as much in part 1, but even then it's not like we need to train Nolan after a certain point in part 1, and he just needs 1 level to be eligible for a seal, Leo needs 6 levels.

Not sure when the BK rejoins, but in the time, he could have reduced the number of needed kills by...I'm gonna say 5, as I think it takes 5 turns. That's 5 more enemies the BK doesn't need to kill. Since it's obvious that the BK doesn't kill all laguz immediately the next turn, this does buy me time. Even still, Leo can still insta-blick a cat because he can, so he can kill 6, then 7, then 8...

Um, if BK is being used extensively, Leo isn't deployed because otherwise Leo dies soon after the partner units die. Otherwise, BK is probably not being permitted to do much, or maybe he was given a weak sword and picked up Meg and is weakening. Either way, if we went and trained the DB so that we deploy enough units to protect Leo then chances are we might want to continue training them.

3-13, there are 3 hawks that endanger your flawless victory. Even base Leo can ballistae a bastard, but obviously some levels for accuracy would be nice. Promoted though, they can't OHKO him, so they need to OR. They can't OR, because he has crossbows. Nolan could too, and an archer could ballistae the third hawk. Solidified victory. Another detail on it is that once that's said and done, he can still freely go around and just chip shit with a random bow to finish something off, or weaken for another character (Jill). In fact, he has that prior as well in 3-6.

Archers can miss. I suppose, though, you could stick Leo on a ledge to block the cats trying to climb and the hawks might be drawn to him, but I think it's safer sticking Leo on a ballista with a B Meg support in 3-13 if you haven't trained him much because he'll have a much higher hit rate than the stupid archers. The only one you might leave is the sniper on the left since he'll have a higher hit rate than the archer but less than Leo. The 3 hawks come one at a time, and I think 2 on the right. Leo and the sniper can get them.

3-12 I wish there was data, but Leo against beorc with a support is packing 21x2 mt. Not fantastic, but it's not bad either for a dude not attacking directly. Even someone with 12 Def would be eating 9x2 damage, 18. That could easily be a Halberdier 2RKOd. 20/5 Nolan just avoided a counter with a steel axe.

What's the 21x2? Brave bow? If you haven't trained him, I'm guessing you give him an arms scroll so he can actually use a B rank bow? (Only B rank brave, game hates Leo). There is no way a tier 2 halb has just 12 defence. They would pretty much have the same stats as any beorc fighting the GMs, just with a potentially lower level. So instead of the level ~15 guys the GMs are facing, say level 7 or so. We just happen to have a list of what kind of stats level 7 guys have. It's 3-P. I suppose there are some tier 1 enemies in 3-12, though. I remember them. Still, the unpromoted armors have near 20 def, and any soldiers would have to be at least level 18, and we have examples of that in 1-E. You are probably looking, though, at 18 def halbs, 15 def warriors, that type of thing. Oh, and 23 def generals or somesuch.

3-1, Rolf with a max mt Steel forge is 3RKOing warriors, the second least durable units on the map. Basically the worst offense on your team. Say what you will, I don't think Leo starts off the worst character on the DB, at least not on so noticeably a level. In fact, a max might iron forge to a level 7 Leo (3 levels, 4 chapters) with a C support is packing 21 Mt. Miccy at level 5 (4 levels) has 13 Mt with Light. Tigers have 10 defense, 2 Res. They have the same exact offense, but cats have 4 Res and 8 Defense, so Leo actually can pull off better offense with less effort. Leo never has to deal with being the worst DB unit because he never is outside of perhaps early part 1 where you're either Nolan and Sothe or you aren't. Rolf on the other hand has to deal with being the worst GM until you crown him at level 10. A crown and 9 levels when you're the worst GM until Lyre shows her ass up is far less forgiveable than 6 levels and a seal for a DB who is basically ok.

Why doesn't Micaiah get to use Thani? You have 90 uses. You don't need that many against armors/cavs/generals/paladins. She has no business attacking stuff with light if it won't die from it. That changes things a lot. Besides, until 1-5 not everyone can have a forge, just 2 or 3 guys. Ilyana gets 20mt with a max forge against res, though it can be less if you don't max mt and still beat Leo. Nolan is probably going around with just Laura healing him, so reducing the #RKOs by 1 is significant. Sothe probably doesn't need an iron forge yet, so I suppose if you make cheap forges you can make an axe and a tome and a bow, but I'm pretty sure you then don't have the money to max out Ilyana's forge, and since she's only getting one for the entirety of part 1 that's possibly going to hurt later.

Oh, base Micaiah with no support pulls 15 mt with thani and does 13 damage to tigers, beating Leo's damage even after you trained him and gave him a support. It's closer on cats and Agony, since without training either 19mt vs. 15mt means they tie some and he wins some, but she beats tigers by the same amount. Now, she also has an auto-A that would be in play if you don't use Int's strategy, and an 80% mag growth vs. Leo's 40% str growth, so I'd have to say he is not beating her with less effort. Basically, he ties her with more effort.

And Rolf doesn't stay the worst GM. 19 speed and a 45% growth while at level 1 is a lot better speed-wise than Boyd's 18 speed and 45% growth while at level 8, even with the difference in enemy phase capability. And a 32 base mt with a forged steel bow and a 75% str growth is nothing to sneeze at either. Even in 3-P/3-1 he at least has a steel bow(if Shinon doesn't take it) and 27 mt, so he'll probably be able to finish off other units' kills a few times like Leo does in part 1 before he gets a forge and some levels and starts OHKOing almost everybody's scraps. And a level 10 Rolf has 23 speed. Level 8 Rolf has 22 speed.

And then in 3-4? Silencer. Shinon isn't always played. Especially when for some reason Rolf was determined to be played. Level 5 Rolf has 36 mt. What scraps isn't he OHKOing now?

Enemies with <= 18 speed starting in 3-5:

3-5

3 generals

4 sages

2 bishops

3 paladins

+9 reinforcements of varying types

3-7

3 generals

10 out of 11 sages

1 dragonmaster

2 bishops

+2 reinforecements

Enemies in 3-7 with 19 speed:

1 thunder sage

2 dragonmasters

+3 reinforcements (all dragonmasters)

Enemies in 3-8 with <= 19 speed:

10 generals

5 sages

2 bishops

+3 reinforecements

Enemies in 3-10 with <= 20 speed (Rolf needs level ~12 on the 20 speed guys)

All paladins (14 out of 22 need 24 speed)

All generals (18 speed only, so level 8 Rolf doubles)

All dragonmasters (2 out of 3 need 24 speed)

All bishops (level 8 Rolf again)

-4 reinforcements (all 20 speed paladins)

Enemies in 3-11 with <= 20 speed (Surely Rolf is > level 12 by now)

All 15 paladins

6 out of 8 sages (level 14/15 Rolf has 25 speed and doubles the other 2)

All generals

All but one bishop (until he burns out rescue, then him too)

Both dragonmasters

Okay, I'm stopping before 3-E. Considering a level 15 Rolf has 27 str and 25 speed and with the silencer pulls 43 mt without supports I think I don't really need to say what he does to 3-E. Heck, you could crown him and get 45 mt and 27 speed at this point. He's only not ORKOing swordmasters, generals, and 1 of 4 dragonmasters (he ORKOs the other 3). Considering how at this point he's basically equivalent to Shinon offensively and 44hp/18def before promotion and 48hp/20def with crowning at level 15 is only 1hp and 5 def down from 20/1 Shinon I'd say I don't need to say what Rolf can do at this point.

Now sure, he has a rut before he starts going, that's why he's lower mid, but Leo faces his own ruts too.

(Oh, and before anyone says lolbishops about some of the enemies I listed, I don't see Leo ORKOing priests, since he doesn't double and doesn't have the mt to OHKO.)

Funny stat: level 18 Shinon has str = level 9 Rolf. 5 levels for Shinon in the time it takes to get Rolf 8 with that level difference? HA! Rolf should be beating Shinon in mt before too long. His trouble is spd (which, happily, is fixed with a transfer, in case anyone wonders about Rolf(T)'s position), since level 9 Rolf has 22.6 AS compared to Shinon's 26. With transfers, 24.6 is a not-insignificant chance at 25 AS, which doubles the same things as 26 until 3-10. And level 9 should happen long before 3-10.

Hmmm...A thought just occured.

Has anyone assumed to pre-promote DB units?

I know we assumed Illyana, but 14 AS doesn't double much if anything in 1-5 (realistic time to assume sealing, you get your first in 1-4). Someone like Aran could have become that much tankier, and gotten +5 crit. Leo could have +10 crit, his rates would be 17-19, which means generally 9-11 displayed. Same with Eddie, though Eddie with his 16 AS would be doubling. Nolan could, but...All he really gains is like a stat blanket. No crit skills, not enough speed to double off the bat...You get it.

I dunno, maybe I'm out of my gourd on this one.

In fact...

10/1 Aran has 27 HP, 14 Def. A C support for 1-5, that's +1. He's not doubling, but the only one who could be is probably Eddie. He'd have a minimum of 34 avoid. Lowest accuracy on the map is 65 displayed, so it's not reliable. However, strongest physical attacker has 26 Mt. Even supportless, that's a 3RKO of 11 damage. Average attack rate is about 18-24. So a 7-3RKO. Sothe has 35 HP, 14 Def. So he faces basically a 6-3RKO. Yes. Aran can be, no shit, more durable than Sothe as soon as 1-5. Concretely anyways. Nolan can't even pull these numbers that soon. 4 Res+1 is a 3RKO from the mage group with their 15 Atk.

Aran has 13 Str, 7+5 crit, so he will have about 5-4 displayed. Steel lance is 23 mt. This 2RKOs everything but 1 fighter on the map. If I got a +1 ATK support, kiss his ass goodbye too.

You could consider it payment for him having bad luck against cats.

Basically he could seal and be better than Nolan, basically your best DB at that point in time outside of Sothe and Volug.

No, just no. Besides, how many levels you think he can get once he's 10/1? 27hp/14 def doesn't go very far in 1-E. Even 28hp/16 def doesn't make him better than Sothe durably there. Oh, and how did you calculate that 27hp/14+1def is better durably than 35hp/14def. That doesn't make any sense. And Sothe has lots more res than Aran, and a pure water just compounds the difference since Sothe no longer even takes damage while Aran still does. And since Aran gets no chapter bonus in 1-3 he'll need to stat rather close to his future buddy in 1-3 and 1-4 just to pull off a C for 1-5.

Oh, 18 mt vs. Sothe? 9HKO. 7HKO on Aran. What were you calculating to get 6HKO is the best Sothe can do?

At least Ilyana's utility comes from early part 1 (in most people's opinion), so the early sealing idea didn't decrease any of her existing utility (in their opinion). Aran's utility has always been once his def gets above 15, really, so like 1-7 to 3-13. You basically just shift his utility to 1-5 and 1-6 and maybe 1-7, only instead of trouncing Sothe durably like he does without the early sealing he instead gets beaten anyway, even if not by as much as he would lose without the sealing.

Edited October 13, 2009 by Narga_Rocks

[grandjackal]

Why does everyone assume Haar is smashing Ludveck anyway? As far as I'm aware, I'm one of the few that is assuming Haar is getting the 2-3 wing. Without it he doesn't have the speed to double Ludveck without 6 or 7 levels or getting extremely speed blessed. A single hit from Haar if you can't get Leanne down there isn't killing the boss. Considering layouts and enemies in the way, Leanne could easily be used just to get to Ludveck. Or used vigoring Heather and getting the shield or something.

Would there then be considered opportunity cost to said wing, as it's not like we can't do this scenario without him winged, of which he could still be crit killed by Ludveck's counter?

After all, Who's to say he gets the first crown? He needs that+crown to double. Soon enough, Gatrie can nab it and he can double off the bat, no wing required. You eventually get another one, of which is then he'd probably want it anyways.

Just a curiosity is all. Considering at this point I might as well be asking the gods if it's ok to argue someone up, it's practically what it comes down to.

Sigh. Opportunity cost, remember? There is nearly zero if he's at the level to use wrath. Thus, we can look at his performance with wrath without really considering much about what other units can do with it in this chapter. That's rather different from beastfoe where Nolan can grab a bowgun and replicate exactly (potential hit rate differences aside) what Leo is doing to the letter. This is similar to the two snickers example I talked about a while ago. Point is, Leo can't get too much utility out of it. Basically, if he goes from 1 to 9 with beastfoe and Nolan goes from 4 to 9, Leo's probably better off with it since the team gets more in total, but he's not getting his entire 8. (making it a little different then the snickers example) I don't like hypothetical numbers much for non-hypotheticals, but I thought I'd throw them out anyway and the point should be made well enough.

With wrath, though, he gets it all. The only benefit to your suggestion is that he didn't take as much in part 1, but even then it's not like we need to train Nolan after a certain point in part 1, and he just needs 1 level to be eligible for a seal, Leo needs 6 levels.

Fine, he can get Wrath. Forgot about that.

Uhhh...This is assuming the fastforward, right?...

...Do you see why I find this list confusing when it's been repeated that it isn't assumed? It only seems to be brought up just to win arguments.

Besides, there are 6 seals. Eddie, Nolan, Jill, Aran, Leo, Illyana. Only other people are Laura (...Why?), Meg (lol) and Fiona (double lol).

Um, if BK is being used extensively, Leo isn't deployed because otherwise Leo dies soon after the partner units die. Otherwise, BK is probably not being permitted to do much, or maybe he was given a weak sword and picked up Meg and is weakening. Either way, if we went and trained the DB so that we deploy enough units to protect Leo then chances are we might want to continue training them.

...Why are we sending Leo in alone with the BK?

Even when playing"normally", why not assume the BK is destroying the map when he shows up? He can pulla "let others kill my scraps" deal, but the thing is that's people he's not killing, which actually slows us down. But again, BK won't kill everything instantly just by showing up. He's not a super saiyen. It's a granted people can still nab kills, and that BK is gonna get a few of them. Difference is that my team is a bit stronger, but I still have a team for 3-12 and 3-13.

Archers can miss. I suppose, though, you could stick Leo on a ledge to block the cats trying to climb and the hawks might be drawn to him, but I think it's safer sticking Leo on a ballista with a B Meg support in 3-13 if you haven't trained him much because he'll have a much higher hit rate than the stupid archers. The only one you might leave is the sniper on the left since he'll have a higher hit rate than the archer but less than Leo. The 3 hawks come one at a time, and I think 2 on the right. Leo and the sniper can get them.

Soooo, you're agreeing with me? It's hard to tell these days.

What's the 21x2? Brave bow? If you haven't trained him, I'm guessing you give him an arms scroll so he can actually use a B rank bow? (Only B rank brave, game hates Leo). There is no way a tier 2 halb has just 12 defence. They would pretty much have the same stats as any beorc fighting the GMs, just with a potentially lower level. So instead of the level ~15 guys the GMs are facing, say level 7 or so. We just happen to have a list of what kind of stats level 7 guys have. It's 3-P. I suppose there are some tier 1 enemies in 3-12, though. I remember them. Still, the unpromoted armors have near 20 def, and any soldiers would have to be at least level 18, and we have examples of that in 1-E. You are probably looking, though, at 18 def halbs, 15 def warriors, that type of thing. Oh, and 23 def generals or somesuch.

Well ya gotta get him to level 10 somehow. Chipping or killing, does he really gain WEXP any slower? For all 1-E, I could easily see him at C even just chipping. Promotion raises his weapon rank, and there's his B.

Yes it is the brave bow.

I do not recall these enemies being that damn strong. But fine, level 10/1 Leo might be a tad bleh.

Why doesn't Micaiah get to use Thani? You have 90 uses. You don't need that many against armors/cavs/generals/paladins. She has no business attacking stuff with light if it won't die from it. That changes things a lot. Besides, until 1-5 not everyone can have a forge, just 2 or 3 guys. Ilyana gets 20mt with a max forge against res, though it can be less if you don't max mt and still beat Leo. Nolan is probably going around with just Laura healing him, so reducing the #RKOs by 1 is significant. Sothe probably doesn't need an iron forge yet, so I suppose if you make cheap forges you can make an axe and a tome and a bow, but I'm pretty sure you then don't have the money to max out Ilyana's forge, and since she's only getting one for the entirety of part 1 that's possibly going to hurt later.

Oh, base Micaiah with no support pulls 15 mt with thani and does 13 damage to tigers, beating Leo's damage even after you trained him and gave him a support. It's closer on cats and Agony, since without training either 19mt vs. 15mt means they tie some and he wins some, but she beats tigers by the same amount. Now, she also has an auto-A that would be in play if you don't use Int's strategy, and an 80% mag growth vs. Leo's 40% str growth, so I'd have to say he is not beating her with less effort. Basically, he ties her with more effort.

*facedesk* forgot about Thani x.x

And Rolf doesn't stay the worst GM. 19 speed and a 45% growth while at level 1 is a lot better speed-wise than Boyd's 18 speed and 45% growth while at level 8, even with the difference in enemy phase capability. And a 32 base mt with a forged steel bow and a 75% str growth is nothing to sneeze at either. Even in 3-P/3-1 he at least has a steel bow(if Shinon doesn't take it) and 27 mt, so he'll probably be able to finish off other units' kills a few times like Leo does in part 1 before he gets a forge and some levels and starts OHKOing almost everybody's scraps. And a level 10 Rolf has 23 speed. Level 8 Rolf has 22 speed.

And then in 3-4? Silencer. Shinon isn't always played. Especially when for some reason Rolf was determined to be played. Level 5 Rolf has 36 mt. What scraps isn't he OHKOing now?

Enemies with <= 18 speed starting in 3-5:

3-5

3 generals

4 sages

2 bishops

3 paladins

+9 reinforcements of varying types

3-7

3 generals

10 out of 11 sages

1 dragonmaster

2 bishops

+2 reinforecements

Enemies in 3-7 with 19 speed:

1 thunder sage

2 dragonmasters

+3 reinforcements (all dragonmasters)

Enemies in 3-8 with <= 19 speed:

10 generals

5 sages

2 bishops

+3 reinforecements

Enemies in 3-10 with <= 20 speed (Rolf needs level ~12 on the 20 speed guys)

All paladins (14 out of 22 need 24 speed)

All generals (18 speed only, so level 8 Rolf doubles)

All dragonmasters (2 out of 3 need 24 speed)

All bishops (level 8 Rolf again)

-4 reinforcements (all 20 speed paladins)

Enemies in 3-11 with <= 20 speed (Surely Rolf is > level 12 by now)

All 15 paladins

6 out of 8 sages (level 14/15 Rolf has 25 speed and doubles the other 2)

All generals

All but one bishop (until he burns out rescue, then him too)

Both dragonmasters

Okay, I'm stopping before 3-E. Considering a level 15 Rolf has 27 str and 25 speed and with the silencer pulls 43 mt without supports I think I don't really need to say what he does to 3-E. Heck, you could crown him and get 45 mt and 27 speed at this point. He's only not ORKOing swordmasters, generals, and 1 of 4 dragonmasters (he ORKOs the other 3). Considering how at this point he's basically equivalent to Shinon offensively and 44hp/18def before promotion and 48hp/20def with crowning at level 15 is only 1hp and 5 def down from 20/1 Shinon I'd say I don't need to say what Rolf can do at this point.

Now sure, he has a rut before he starts going, that's why he's lower mid, but Leo faces his own ruts too.

Uhhh, I think you're leveling him a tad too fast. Player phase only, 11 levels in 9 chapters, and being the worst unit on the team for most of the start? I see a problem.

As for 32 mt? I'll sneeze at it all I want because it 3RKOs warriors, the second least durable enemy on the map in 3-1. Boyd has more just by holding a normal steel axe. Rolf is probably the last person I'd care to forge for outside of Mist and Rhys (was it this game where forging light is damn expensive, or was that FE9?).

(Oh, and before anyone says lolbishops about some of the enemies I listed, I don't see Leo ORKOing priests, since he doesn't double and doesn't have the mt to OHKO.)

Doesn't take a rocket scientist to tell you Leo's part 4 sucks. Here's the thing, I could bench him, ignoring it alltogether. I can't ignore Rolf's rough start.

Funny stat: level 18 Shinon has str = level 9 Rolf. 5 levels for Shinon in the time it takes to get Rolf 8 with that level difference? HA! Rolf should be beating Shinon in mt before too long. His trouble is spd (which, happily, is fixed with a transfer, in case anyone wonders about Rolf(T)'s position), since level 9 Rolf has 22.6 AS compared to Shinon's 26. With transfers, 24.6 is a not-insignificant chance at 25 AS, which doubles the same things as 26 until 3-10. And level 9 should happen long before 3-10.

T Rolf is in fact pretty cool...

No, just no. Besides, how many levels you think he can get once he's 10/1? 27hp/14 def doesn't go very far in 1-E. Even 28hp/16 def doesn't make him better than Sothe durably there. Oh, and how did you calculate that 27hp/14+1def is better durably than 35hp/14def. That doesn't make any sense. And Sothe has lots more res than Aran, and a pure water just compounds the difference since Sothe no longer even takes damage while Aran still does. And since Aran gets no chapter bonus in 1-3 he'll need to stat rather close to his future buddy in 1-3 and 1-4 just to pull off a C for 1-5.

13? He has 11 Def. *double checks* ...I must have been looking at the wrong stat page x.x

Regardless he still shows up and can do this to be one of your more durable units. Nolan at a reasonable level (14 sound fine?) has 7 more HP, but Aran has 3 more defense.

It's a maybe between them, but they can be comparable.

Oh, 18 mt vs. Sothe? 9HKO. 7HKO on Aran. What were you calculating to get 6HKO is the best Sothe can do?

Annnnd forgot about the myrmidons *facedesk* Damn, I am sloppy today.

At least Ilyana's utility comes from early part 1 (in most people's opinion), so the early sealing idea didn't decrease any of her existing utility (in their opinion). Aran's utility has always been once his def gets above 15, really, so like 1-7 to 3-13. You basically just shift his utility to 1-5 and 1-6 and maybe 1-7, only instead of trouncing Sothe durably like he does without the early sealing he instead gets beaten anyway, even if not by as much as he would lose without the sealing.

It's weird how he can just do that, shift when he's useful.

But fine, fine. Suppose Eddie ORKOing with an iron forge and Leo support won't get that far either...

[nflchamp]

DB units just can't afford to take the smaller EXP for the extra stats from promotion, seeing how most of them are already hurting for stats at the end of the game due to being underleveled starting part 4.

[Interceptor]

I think assuming the rest of the team isn't (T) is the best way to go about it. At this point this looks like the better of two evils to me, though I'd like to hear some other thoughts on the matter before making the decision.

It's certainly the less complicated of the two evils. Unless transfer units are insulated from each other, we'd be judging units by a different standard. Untangling that yarnball is as simple as stipulating that transfer characters are deployed alongside only ordinary units. Anything else would make the tier list contradict itself, requiring that two lists be maintained, or require that all normal units be re-ranked (NO THANKS).

[Florete]

Uhhh...This is assuming the fastforward, right?...

...Do you see why I find this list confusing when it's been repeated that it isn't assumed? It only seems to be brought up just to win arguments.

I said it before. It's not assumed to happen, but it's an advantage for those that help pull it off.

But I don't see how Narga was using that to "win the argument" anyway.

Besides, there are 6 seals. Eddie, Nolan, Jill, Aran, Leo, Illyana. Only other people are Laura (...Why?), Meg (lol) and Fiona (double lol).

2 cost 10k each. I'd never assume we get those. Only 4 are free. And I like to promote Laura so she might not be ORKOd and she can attack when not healing and have +1 move. I like to promote Ilyana so she can take a 15 capacity skill to the GM's on top of an extra 10 cap skill, but only if I have those to transfer over.

Well ya gotta get him to level 10 somehow. Chipping or killing, does he really gain WEXP any slower? For all 1-E, I could easily see him at C even just chipping. Promotion raises his weapon rank, and there's his B.

He starts at D and needs 90 WEXP, never doubling. I'm pretty sure promotion does not give WEXP. He needs 40 to C, during which he can only use Iron for 1 WEXP per turn, or 2 w/Discipline (Aran might want it, but it shouldn't be a big deal), and then he can start getting 3 from Steel. I can't really determine how realistic that is, though if he were to be used as a member of the team I'd probably assume he makes it.

Uhhh, I think you're leveling him a tad too fast. Player phase only, 11 levels in 9 chapters, and being the worst unit on the team for most of the start? I see a problem.

You forget his high experience gain. I actually might have given him a couple more levels.

As for 32 mt? I'll sneeze at it all I want because it 3RKOs warriors, the second least durable enemy on the map in 3-1. Boyd has more just by holding a normal steel axe. Rolf is probably the last person I'd care to forge for outside of Mist and Rhys (was it this game where forging light is damn expensive, or was that FE9?).

Since when has getting a forge even been a problem?

Doesn't take a rocket scientist to tell you Leo's part 4 sucks. Here's the thing, I could bench him, ignoring it alltogether. I can't ignore Rolf's rough start.

True, but Leo's part 1 is not stellar either.

T Rolf is in fact pretty cool...

I could actually see him in Upper Mid. He's suddenly become like a mini Shinon who will likely surpass the master.

[Shadow Mir]

Again, Lethe's gauge limits her flexibility.

As for the bold:

1. There's no turn limit on max BEXP in 2-E.

2. Ludveck has a crit chance on Haar. Meaning if you're unlucky, it'll be HAAR that gets smashed to bits.

Why does everyone assume Haar is smashing Ludveck anyway? As far as I'm aware, I'm one of the few that is assuming Haar is getting the 2-3 wing. Without it he doesn't have the speed to double Ludveck without 6 or 7 levels or getting extremely speed blessed. A single hit from Haar if you can't get Leanne down there isn't killing the boss. Considering layouts and enemies in the way, Leanne could easily be used just to get to Ludveck. Or used vigoring Heather and getting the shield or something.

WRT olivi grass: When you only have one and you have three laguz units who'd like to use some, that's a problem. And finding the Olivi Grass in 2-E shouldn't be considered a guarantee.

What else is Heather doing here anyway? Iron knife has a whopping 2mt, so with Heather's str that's 19mt with a ledge advantage. Turn 2 she can step on the olivi grass square, and she's got a really high chance of picking it up. Even if she doesn't, 1 or 2 turns later? Is she really doing more elsewhere this early in the map? Unless you are trying to speed through in 5 turns or less while still getting the draco, I'm not seeing just how she's not able to get the olivi grass before other commitments pull her away.

He can't not double, the brave bow is in 3-6. Slap Beastfoe on him, that's 27x2mt. Level 10/1 Leo has 11 Str, so that's 38x2mt. Factor in a support, +2, that's 40x2 Mt. One rounds all cats. Weakest tigers he leaves at 4 HP, strongest at 11-12 HP. Energy drop, I can add the weakest tigers to the death list, leaving the strongest to 7-8 HP. For a dude promoting at such a low level, this is pretty amazing.

Hell, he doesn't even need the brave bow unless you wanna go jeigen utility on tigers. Just a crossbow.

He's not walling, but he's still capable of this. Since he's only level 10, this means he can be this strong while not weakening the rest of your DB army in the long term from part 1.

Sigh. Opportunity cost, remember? There is nearly zero if he's at the level to use wrath. Thus, we can look at his performance with wrath without really considering much about what other units can do with it in this chapter. That's rather different from beastfoe where Nolan can grab a bowgun and replicate exactly (potential hit rate differences aside) what Leo is doing to the letter. This is similar to the two snickers example I talked about a while ago. Point is, Leo can't get too much utility out of it. Basically, if he goes from 1 to 9 with beastfoe and Nolan goes from 4 to 9, Leo's probably better off with it since the team gets more in total, but he's not getting his entire 8. (making it a little different then the snickers example) I don't like hypothetical numbers much for non-hypotheticals, but I thought I'd throw them out anyway and the point should be made well enough.

With wrath, though, he gets it all. The only benefit to your suggestion is that he didn't take as much in part 1, but even then it's not like we need to train Nolan after a certain point in part 1, and he just needs 1 level to be eligible for a seal, Leo needs 6 levels.

Not sure when the BK rejoins, but in the time, he could have reduced the number of needed kills by...I'm gonna say 5, as I think it takes 5 turns. That's 5 more enemies the BK doesn't need to kill. Since it's obvious that the BK doesn't kill all laguz immediately the next turn, this does buy me time. Even still, Leo can still insta-blick a cat because he can, so he can kill 6, then 7, then 8...

Um, if BK is being used extensively, Leo isn't deployed because otherwise Leo dies soon after the partner units die. Otherwise, BK is probably not being permitted to do much, or maybe he was given a weak sword and picked up Meg and is weakening. Either way, if we went and trained the DB so that we deploy enough units to protect Leo then chances are we might want to continue training them.

3-13, there are 3 hawks that endanger your flawless victory. Even base Leo can ballistae a bastard, but obviously some levels for accuracy would be nice. Promoted though, they can't OHKO him, so they need to OR. They can't OR, because he has crossbows. Nolan could too, and an archer could ballistae the third hawk. Solidified victory. Another detail on it is that once that's said and done, he can still freely go around and just chip shit with a random bow to finish something off, or weaken for another character (Jill). In fact, he has that prior as well in 3-6.

Archers can miss. I suppose, though, you could stick Leo on a ledge to block the cats trying to climb and the hawks might be drawn to him, but I think it's safer sticking Leo on a ballista with a B Meg support in 3-13 if you haven't trained him much because he'll have a much higher hit rate than the stupid archers. The only one you might leave is the sniper on the left since he'll have a higher hit rate than the archer but less than Leo. The 3 hawks come one at a time, and I think 2 on the right. Leo and the sniper can get them.

3-12 I wish there was data, but Leo against beorc with a support is packing 21x2 mt. Not fantastic, but it's not bad either for a dude not attacking directly. Even someone with 12 Def would be eating 9x2 damage, 18. That could easily be a Halberdier 2RKOd. 20/5 Nolan just avoided a counter with a steel axe.

What's the 21x2? Brave bow? If you haven't trained him, I'm guessing you give him an arms scroll so he can actually use a B rank bow? (Only B rank brave, game hates Leo). There is no way a tier 2 halb has just 12 defence. They would pretty much have the same stats as any beorc fighting the GMs, just with a potentially lower level. So instead of the level ~15 guys the GMs are facing, say level 7 or so. We just happen to have a list of what kind of stats level 7 guys have. It's 3-P. I suppose there are some tier 1 enemies in 3-12, though. I remember them. Still, the unpromoted armors have near 20 def, and any soldiers would have to be at least level 18, and we have examples of that in 1-E. You are probably looking, though, at 18 def halbs, 15 def warriors, that type of thing. Oh, and 23 def generals or somesuch.

3-1, Rolf with a max mt Steel forge is 3RKOing warriors, the second least durable units on the map. Basically the worst offense on your team. Say what you will, I don't think Leo starts off the worst character on the DB, at least not on so noticeably a level. In fact, a max might iron forge to a level 7 Leo (3 levels, 4 chapters) with a C support is packing 21 Mt. Miccy at level 5 (4 levels) has 13 Mt with Light. Tigers have 10 defense, 2 Res. They have the same exact offense, but cats have 4 Res and 8 Defense, so Leo actually can pull off better offense with less effort. Leo never has to deal with being the worst DB unit because he never is outside of perhaps early part 1 where you're either Nolan and Sothe or you aren't. Rolf on the other hand has to deal with being the worst GM until you crown him at level 10. A crown and 9 levels when you're the worst GM until Lyre shows her ass up is far less forgiveable than 6 levels and a seal for a DB who is basically ok.

Why doesn't Micaiah get to use Thani? You have 90 uses. You don't need that many against armors/cavs/generals/paladins. She has no business attacking stuff with light if it won't die from it. That changes things a lot. Besides, until 1-5 not everyone can have a forge, just 2 or 3 guys. Ilyana gets 20mt with a max forge against res, though it can be less if you don't max mt and still beat Leo. Nolan is probably going around with just Laura healing him, so reducing the #RKOs by 1 is significant. Sothe probably doesn't need an iron forge yet, so I suppose if you make cheap forges you can make an axe and a tome and a bow, but I'm pretty sure you then don't have the money to max out Ilyana's forge, and since she's only getting one for the entirety of part 1 that's possibly going to hurt later.

Oh, base Micaiah with no support pulls 15 mt with thani and does 13 damage to tigers, beating Leo's damage even after you trained him and gave him a support. It's closer on cats and Agony, since without training either 19mt vs. 15mt means they tie some and he wins some, but she beats tigers by the same amount. Now, she also has an auto-A that would be in play if you don't use Int's strategy, and an 80% mag growth vs. Leo's 40% str growth, so I'd have to say he is not beating her with less effort. Basically, he ties her with more effort.

And Rolf doesn't stay the worst GM. 19 speed and a 45% growth while at level 1 is a lot better speed-wise than Boyd's 18 speed and 45% growth while at level 8, even with the difference in enemy phase capability. And a 32 base mt with a forged steel bow and a 75% str growth is nothing to sneeze at either. Even in 3-P/3-1 he at least has a steel bow(if Shinon doesn't take it) and 27 mt, so he'll probably be able to finish off other units' kills a few times like Leo does in part 1 before he gets a forge and some levels and starts OHKOing almost everybody's scraps. And a level 10 Rolf has 23 speed. Level 8 Rolf has 22 speed.

And then in 3-4? Silencer. Shinon isn't always played. Especially when for some reason Rolf was determined to be played. Level 5 Rolf has 36 mt. What scraps isn't he OHKOing now?

Enemies with <= 18 speed starting in 3-5:

3-5

3 generals

4 sages

2 bishops

3 paladins

+9 reinforcements of varying types

3-7

3 generals

10 out of 11 sages

1 dragonmaster

2 bishops

+2 reinforecements

Enemies in 3-7 with 19 speed:

1 thunder sage

2 dragonmasters

+3 reinforcements (all dragonmasters)

Enemies in 3-8 with <= 19 speed:

10 generals

5 sages

2 bishops

+3 reinforecements

Enemies in 3-10 with <= 20 speed (Rolf needs level ~12 on the 20 speed guys)

All paladins (14 out of 22 need 24 speed)

All generals (18 speed only, so level 8 Rolf doubles)

All dragonmasters (2 out of 3 need 24 speed)

All bishops (level 8 Rolf again)

-4 reinforcements (all 20 speed paladins)

Enemies in 3-11 with <= 20 speed (Surely Rolf is > level 12 by now)

All 15 paladins

6 out of 8 sages (level 14/15 Rolf has 25 speed and doubles the other 2)

All generals

All but one bishop (until he burns out rescue, then him too)

Both dragonmasters

Okay, I'm stopping before 3-E. Considering a level 15 Rolf has 27 str and 25 speed and with the silencer pulls 43 mt without supports I think I don't really need to say what he does to 3-E. Heck, you could crown him and get 45 mt and 27 speed at this point. He's only not ORKOing swordmasters, generals, and 1 of 4 dragonmasters (he ORKOs the other 3). Considering how at this point he's basically equivalent to Shinon offensively and 44hp/18def before promotion and 48hp/20def with crowning at level 15 is only 1hp and 5 def down from 20/1 Shinon I'd say I don't need to say what Rolf can do at this point.

Now sure, he has a rut before he starts going, that's why he's lower mid, but Leo faces his own ruts too.

(Oh, and before anyone says lolbishops about some of the enemies I listed, I don't see Leo ORKOing priests, since he doesn't double and doesn't have the mt to OHKO.)

Funny stat: level 18 Shinon has str = level 9 Rolf. 5 levels for Shinon in the time it takes to get Rolf 8 with that level difference? HA! Rolf should be beating Shinon in mt before too long. His trouble is spd (which, happily, is fixed with a transfer, in case anyone wonders about Rolf(T)'s position), since level 9 Rolf has 22.6 AS compared to Shinon's 26. With transfers, 24.6 is a not-insignificant chance at 25 AS, which doubles the same things as 26 until 3-10. And level 9 should happen long before 3-10.

Hmmm...A thought just occured.

Has anyone assumed to pre-promote DB units?

I know we assumed Illyana, but 14 AS doesn't double much if anything in 1-5 (realistic time to assume sealing, you get your first in 1-4). Someone like Aran could have become that much tankier, and gotten +5 crit. Leo could have +10 crit, his rates would be 17-19, which means generally 9-11 displayed. Same with Eddie, though Eddie with his 16 AS would be doubling. Nolan could, but...All he really gains is like a stat blanket. No crit skills, not enough speed to double off the bat...You get it.

I dunno, maybe I'm out of my gourd on this one.

In fact...

10/1 Aran has 27 HP, 14 Def. A C support for 1-5, that's +1. He's not doubling, but the only one who could be is probably Eddie. He'd have a minimum of 34 avoid. Lowest accuracy on the map is 65 displayed, so it's not reliable. However, strongest physical attacker has 26 Mt. Even supportless, that's a 3RKO of 11 damage. Average attack rate is about 18-24. So a 7-3RKO. Sothe has 35 HP, 14 Def. So he faces basically a 6-3RKO. Yes. Aran can be, no shit, more durable than Sothe as soon as 1-5. Concretely anyways. Nolan can't even pull these numbers that soon. 4 Res+1 is a 3RKO from the mage group with their 15 Atk.

Aran has 13 Str, 7+5 crit, so he will have about 5-4 displayed. Steel lance is 23 mt. This 2RKOs everything but 1 fighter on the map. If I got a +1 ATK support, kiss his ass goodbye too.

You could consider it payment for him having bad luck against cats.

Basically he could seal and be better than Nolan, basically your best DB at that point in time outside of Sothe and Volug.

No, just no. Besides, how many levels you think he can get once he's 10/1? 27hp/14 def doesn't go very far in 1-E. Even 28hp/16 def doesn't make him better than Sothe durably there. Oh, and how did you calculate that 27hp/14+1def is better durably than 35hp/14def. That doesn't make any sense. And Sothe has lots more res than Aran, and a pure water just compounds the difference since Sothe no longer even takes damage while Aran still does. And since Aran gets no chapter bonus in 1-3 he'll need to stat rather close to his future buddy in 1-3 and 1-4 just to pull off a C for 1-5.

Oh, 18 mt vs. Sothe? 9HKO. 7HKO on Aran. What were you calculating to get 6HKO is the best Sothe can do?

At least Ilyana's utility comes from early part 1 (in most people's opinion), so the early sealing idea didn't decrease any of her existing utility (in their opinion). Aran's utility has always been once his def gets above 15, really, so like 1-7 to 3-13. You basically just shift his utility to 1-5 and 1-6 and maybe 1-7, only instead of trouncing Sothe durably like he does without the early sealing he instead gets beaten anyway, even if not by as much as he would lose without the sealing.

Skipping everything else... I'd also like to know why people are assuming that Haar will be smashing Ludveck. I was telling it like it is: Ludveck can potentially kill Haar if the hammer strategy fails. You got me on the Olivi grass comment, though.

[grandjackal]

DB units just can't afford to take the smaller EXP for the extra stats from promotion, seeing how most of them are already hurting for stats at the end of the game due to being underleveled starting part 4.

Chances are we are only using 2 or 3 seriously at best. I think one or two wouldn't mind sealing for the sake of part 1 utility, which helps for the sake of the 2 or 3 we are using seriously.

I said it before. It's not assumed to happen, but it's an advantage for those that help pull it off.

But I don't see how Narga was using that to "win the argument" anyway.

I can understand that.

But he said basically that we don't have to use Nolan seriously, so he only needs 1 level. That's true, but I don't see how that had anything to do with my argument, since it wasn't like I was saying Leo gets the first. So, I assumed he meant we didn't need to use him seriously, which usually goes with the "we're just whiplashing through part 1".

2 cost 10k each. I'd never assume we get those. Only 4 are free. And I like to promote Laura so she might not be ORKOd and she can attack when not healing and have +1 move. I like to promote Ilyana so she can take a 15 capacity skill to the GM's on top of an extra 10 cap skill, but only if I have those to transfer over.

Oh, you have to buy two. I can see Illyana, but Laura? She starts level 1, how in god's name are you getting her to level 10...in any real time frame?

From there, only person I can think of that we'd use seriously for the sake of DB part efficient play that we'd want to seal later is Nolan, and that's it. Anyone else is a bit more questionable. If we aren't gonna use Aran seriously, we can seal him early for the sake of helping be another Nolan, or we could do the same for Eddie. I just feel that a couple could be spared for the sake of part 1 utility.

It's not like DB are begging for money by the time they're buyable, or that they really care for forges. They just want special weapons more than anything. But I suppose I'll leave it at that.

He starts at D and needs 90 WEXP, never doubling. I'm pretty sure promotion does not give WEXP. He needs 40 to C, during which he can only use Iron for 1 WEXP per turn, or 2 w/Discipline (Aran might want it, but it shouldn't be a big deal), and then he can start getting 3 from Steel. I can't really determine how realistic that is, though if he were to be used as a member of the team I'd probably assume he makes it.

Well with discipline, wouldn't Steel give 6? Once he ranks up, that's not even 10 shots...

You forget his high experience gain. I actually might have given him a couple more levels.

He's lower leveled, not a trainee unit. He's not Ross. Ross had more chances to attack than player phase as well.

Since when has getting a forge even been a problem?

Normally it isn't a problem, but this is 3-1. Treasure hasn't arrived, and Illyana doesn't bring in the big haul until 3-2. I recall that you start with a mere 5,000 gold. A steel bow is worth 1050 gold. A max might would 2625 gold. That's more than half our money at that time. On top of it, he doesn't even put it to that fantastic of use. I could forge a Steel Axe and a half for that much. People that would appreciate this are Gatrie, Boyd and Titania. One man robbed 1.5 people, and doesn't even come close to putting it to as good a use as these folks could have with a forge. It's fine and dandy once Illyana shows up, but none sooner.

True, but Leo's part 1 is not stellar either.

It's not pre-good Rolf bad though either. Leo's at least comparing to his team.

I could actually see him in Upper Mid. He's suddenly become like a mini Shinon who will likely surpass the master.

I could see it too.

[Narga_Rocks]

Oh, about transfers: You may as well assume that a (T) character is competing with units that have inflated weapon levels, if it ever matters. Don't need xx/20 in PoR for that.

Skipping everything else... I'd also like to know why people are assuming that Haar will be smashing Ludveck. I was telling it like it is: Ludveck can potentially kill Haar if the hammer strategy fails. You got me on the Olivi grass comment, though.

Sorry, I was thinking of other people saying: Haar smashes Ludveck, and various things like that. Yeah, you were also pointing out it's not exactly foolproof.

Would there then be considered opportunity cost to said wing, as it's not like we can't do this scenario without him winged, of which he could still be crit killed by Ludveck's counter?

??

In order to do this without him winged, you need Leanne. Leanne could be doing something else. Or needed earlier in the turn just to get someone to the boss. And he's facing crit unless Calill burns the boss first. Even then, you probably want favourable bios before taking a whack with the hammer. Elincia just seems so much safer, and the tomahawk isn't so good that I'll cry over missing out on it until 3-9 (pretty sure about this).

After all, Who's to say he gets the first crown? He needs that+crown to double. Soon enough, Gatrie can nab it and he can double off the bat, no wing required. You eventually get another one, of which is then he'd probably want it anyways.

When have I ever tried to give Haar the first crown? Even with a wing he won't have 24 speed yet so it'll just hurt him in the end anyway. And Gats would be stuck at 23 speed. Just a few posts of mine ago I even said:

3-3 crown-Gatrie

3-6 crown-Haar

Just where in that do you see me giving Haar the first crown? And he doesn't need the first one to double Ludveck, since that's what I was talking about. First crown isn't even there yet. Then afterwards there are plenty of things that 22 AS lets him ORKO that 20 AS doesn't, and by level 14 or 15 plenty of stuff that 23 AS doubles that 21 doesn't.

Just a curiosity is all. Considering at this point I might as well be asking the gods if it's ok to argue someone up, it's practically what it comes down to.

A bit melodramatic, I think.

Besides, there are 6 seals. Eddie, Nolan, Jill, Aran, Leo, Illyana. Only other people are Laura (...Why?), Meg (lol) and Fiona (double lol).

? There's 4. The other two are rip-offs and completely unecessary. Besides, I never complained about giving Leo the seal, just the 6 levels. Only that in itself wasn't really even a complaint, just pointing out he takes plenty of effort just to get there.

...Why are we sending Leo in alone with the BK?

Even when playing"normally", why not assume the BK is destroying the map when he shows up? He can pulla "let others kill my scraps" deal, but the thing is that's people he's not killing, which actually slows us down. But again, BK won't kill everything instantly just by showing up. He's not a super saiyen. It's a granted people can still nab kills, and that BK is gonna get a few of them. Difference is that my team is a bit stronger, but I still have a team for 3-12 and 3-13.

Because there is no point. You either leave everyone untrained, or try to get a few units to xx/12 or higher for part 4. Otherwise you may as well just give up on them and do the Sothe Saviour strategy. I'm not seeing how you can use the BK extensively and train them up to significant levels. And if you aren't planning on using Jill/Nolan after part 3, what was the point in raising them in the first place?

Soooo, you're agreeing with me? It's hard to tell these days.

Disagreeing on implementation, agreeing on the idea that Leo killing 1 or 2 hawks for the safety of the chapter is important. And Nolan can't use ballistas, so Leo's utility there is unique (in that he won't miss and the stupid NPC does sometimes).

Well ya gotta get him to level 10 somehow. Chipping or killing, does he really gain WEXP any slower? For all 1-E, I could easily see him at C even just chipping. Promotion raises his weapon rank, and there's his B.

Actually, in PoR and RD promotion only puts you up to the base weapon levels of the next class. If you are already there or higher, you get diddly. Sniper may or may not have a C Bow base, the site doesn't say, but I'm pretty sure the base ain't B. And with an iron bow he's getting 2 wexp a shot and needs 40 to get a C and 50 more to get a B. He has one chapter with steel in there (1-E), unless you want him using steel bow once he hits C rather than an iron forge. Even so, 20 iron bow uses + 17 steel bow uses (or 25 iron forge uses) (too bad he can't grab Rolf's Bow, most wexp till Silver). Anyway, 37 turns, since he doesn't double. This is, by the way, why I like discipline. Usually Leo gets it in 1-4 and can actually use the iron longbow or steel bow in 1-5 if I want, since I can't seem to get him to C otherwise. Then, since I don't use Aran, Micaiah gets it if I'm not doing the wrath thing. After that I'm not sure what I always do with it, though it sometimes goes to the GMs (even though they get there own in 3-2 from Heather and co.).

So yeah, with a level 10 Leo I don't think B is happening. A level 15 Leo has no issues whatsoever getting B, but he can wrath with Lugh and clean up house.

I do not recall these enemies being that damn strong. But fine, level 10/1 Leo might be a tad bleh.

Meh, maybe the promoted versions were level ~4, in which case look in 2-E for similar stats. I remember at least 70% of 3-12 being promoted, or I think I do, anyway.

Uhhh, I think you're leveling him a tad too fast. Player phase only, 11 levels in 9 chapters, and being the worst unit on the team for most of the start? I see a problem.

Except for the whole >30 exp per kill thing while being one of the cleaning crew. Easily 4 kills a map or more if I'm seriously using him. Probably more. Cleaning crew gets lots of cripples to KO.

As for 32 mt? I'll sneeze at it all I want because it 3RKOs warriors, the second least durable enemy on the map in 3-1. Boyd has more just by holding a normal steel axe. Rolf is probably the last person I'd care to forge for outside of Mist and Rhys (was it this game where forging light is damn expensive, or was that FE9?).

Gee, 32 mt only OHKOs just about anything attacked by a bunch of your other units. Give Rolf 19 str for levels and Soren 24 mag and both forges:

34 mt for Rolf, 34 mt for Soren. That's like 2 or 3 levels in 4 maps for Rolf and 1 or 2 for Soren. You could reverse which one gets that number of levels, but honestly it just makes this easier since Soren's mag growth is higher than Rolf's str growth (if only slightly).

1x Warrior lvl 9 (Crossbow)

HP 41, Atk 28, AS 20, Hit 154, Avo 54, DEF 16, RES 9, Crit 10, Ddg 14

1x Warrior lvl 9 (Steel Axe)

HP 41, Atk 34, AS 20, Hit 129, Avo 54, DEF 16, RES 9, Crit 10, Ddg 14

3x Warrior lvl 10 (Steel Axe)

HP 42, Atk 34, AS 20, Hit 130, Avo 55, DEF 16, RES 9, Crit 10, Ddg 15

2x Warrior lvl 11 (Steel Axe, one has Coin)

HP 42, Atk 35, AS 21, Hit 130, Avo 57, DEF 17, RES 9, Crit 10, Ddg 15

Point to one unit that isn't killed by a Soren + Rolf combination. (with forges). Then tell me that Rolf is having issues. And guess what, that's with Soren helping him. Just think what he's doing with the rest. This isn't Heather/Mist/Lyre/Kyza/Lethe here, he doesn't have any issues helping out in part 3. And once he starts doubling he's out-damaging Shinon. And while he's not doubling everything, he'll be doubling some things as early as 3-5.

(Oh, and before anyone says lolbishops about some of the enemies I listed, I don't see Leo ORKOing priests, since he doesn't double and doesn't have the mt to OHKO.)

Doesn't take a rocket scientist to tell you Leo's part 4 sucks. Here's the thing, I could bench him, ignoring it alltogether. I can't ignore Rolf's rough start.

Dude, priests, that's tier 1, which mostly exist in part 1. That's a pretty rough start (shared by many in the DB, of course).

Funny stat: level 18 Shinon has str = level 9 Rolf. 5 levels for Shinon in the time it takes to get Rolf 8 with that level difference? HA! Rolf should be beating Shinon in mt before too long. His trouble is spd (which, happily, is fixed with a transfer, in case anyone wonders about Rolf(T)'s position), since level 9 Rolf has 22.6 AS compared to Shinon's 26. With transfers, 24.6 is a not-insignificant chance at 25 AS, which doubles the same things as 26 until 3-10. And level 9 should happen long before 3-10.

T Rolf is in fact pretty cool...

Yeah, and he shares Shinon's str at like level 7, what with actually having a prayer at capping str in PoR. Level 10 Rolf is basically already outperforming Shinon, and Shinon's only win (durability) doesn't matter until 4-E-1. And all skl does for Shinon(T) is capping skill at base level but bexp typically gives hp/spd/def at that point anyway. I suppose bexping for str can happen at level 15, though, most of the time.

Regardless he still shows up and can do this to be one of your more durable units. Nolan at a reasonable level (14 sound fine?) has 7 more HP, but Aran has 3 more defense.

It's a maybe between them, but they can be comparable.

Well, don't know or care about Nolan's level. All I'm saying is that Aran probably gets more utility out of waiting, considering then he'll actually beat Sothe's durability for a while rather than not even tie it.

But fine, fine. Suppose Eddie ORKOing with an iron forge and Leo support won't get that far either...

Can he ORKO anything? Tell us levels, see what we say. I have no issues with Ed getting a max mt iron sword forge in 1-5.

[Florete]

But he said basically that we don't have to use Nolan seriously, so he only needs 1 level. That's true, but I don't see how that had anything to do with my argument, since it wasn't like I was saying Leo gets the first. So, I assumed he meant we didn't need to use him seriously, which usually goes with the "we're just whiplashing through part 1".

I think this works in Nolan's favor in that he can be useful even when we use the "Easy button" strategy, even if he isn't an essential component of it.

Oh, you have to buy two. I can see Illyana, but Laura? She starts level 1, how in god's name are you getting her to level 10...in any real time frame?

I usually have her at ~12 by 1-E, which is where I promote her. If not there, 3-6.

It's not like DB are begging for money by the time they're buyable, or that they really care for forges. They just want special weapons more than anything. But I suppose I'll leave it at that.

10k is a rather big blow, though. They could probably afford it, but I think I'd rather use the money for various other things than promoting a unit early that probably won't even help that much in the end.

He's lower leveled, not a trainee unit. He's not Ross. Ross had more chances to attack than player phase as well.

He also doesn't have Ross' Godawful durability and Hit issues. It's also easier for him to get kills as Narga pointed out.

Normally it isn't a problem, but this is 3-1. Treasure hasn't arrived, and Illyana doesn't bring in the big haul until 3-2. I recall that you start with a mere 5,000 gold. A steel bow is worth 1050 gold. A max might would 2625 gold. That's more than half our money at that time. On top of it, he doesn't even put it to that fantastic of use. I could forge a Steel Axe and a half for that much. People that would appreciate this are Gatrie, Boyd and Titania. One man robbed 1.5 people, and doesn't even come close to putting it to as good a use as these folks could have with a forge. It's fine and dandy once Illyana shows up, but none sooner.

We can't forge until 3-2.

[Narga_Rocks]

too many posts.

I can understand that.

But he said basically that we don't have to use Nolan seriously, so he only needs 1 level. That's true, but I don't see how that had anything to do with my argument, since it wasn't like I was saying Leo gets the first. So, I assumed he meant we didn't need to use him seriously, which usually goes with the "we're just whiplashing through part 1".

It was part of the entire point I was making. Idea being:

Look how little training Leo takes to clean up 3-6.

counterpoint:

Nolan takes even less to do the same thing.

Not advocating the idea. Just countering the idea that Leo not needing training and still being useful so that some other DBer can get the exp in part 1 is a big deal. I could ditch Nolan once I can get by without him and train up Jill/Edward/Aran or something and then slap a seal on Nolan and let him bowgun (72mt is enough) stuff in part 3 with beastfoe and he'd take less exp from the others than Leo did and we only have one beastfoe.

Notice how that doesn't require ditching the DB tier 1 units, just Nolan, because Nolan isn't automatically getting chosen to be one of the blessed few that gets to tier 2.

It's not like DB are begging for money by the time they're buyable, or that they really care for forges. They just want special weapons more than anything. But I suppose I'll leave it at that.

Opportunity cost:

the value of the next best alternative foregone as the result of making a decision.

economic profit:

the difference between a company's total revenue and its opportunity costs

(as for the word "company", think "company" in military terms if it makes more sense)

Are you seriously telling me that the utility from a 5th seal is actually enough to override the loss of 10000? You know how many forges you can make between 1-E and 3-2 with that? Aran and Zihark get nothing to make up for the lack of a steel forge, for an example. Zihark might have the brave sword, or we may have sent it to the GMs for Gatrie to ORKO generals with a better hit rate than the hammer, or for Mia to ORKO some stuff, or for Ike to use sometimes. And the gems you'd have to sell rather than ship also hurts. I'm thinking economic profit is negative.

Well with discipline, wouldn't Steel give 6? Once he ranks up, that's not even 10 shots...

Well gee, I think Sothe is busy in 1-3 now.

He's lower leveled, not a trainee unit. He's not Ross. Ross had more chances to attack than player phase as well.

Dude, it takes like 4 kills to level and there are lots of enemies and plenty of turns to clean up the leftovers from enemy phase tanking of others. No reason he's not getting in on it just like everyone else we choose to raise.

Normally it isn't a problem, but this is 3-1. Treasure hasn't arrived, and Illyana doesn't bring in the big haul until 3-2. I recall that you start with a mere 5,000 gold. A steel bow is worth 1050 gold. A max might would 2625 gold. That's more than half our money at that time. On top of it, he doesn't even put it to that fantastic of use. I could forge a Steel Axe and a half for that much. People that would appreciate this are Gatrie, Boyd and Titania. One man robbed 1.5 people, and doesn't even come close to putting it to as good a use as these folks could have with a forge. It's fine and dandy once Illyana shows up, but none sooner.

Can't forge in 3-1. I'm talking 3-2. I acknowledged he's stuck at 27 mt until his str growth starts working until 3-2. At that point, forging money shouldn't be an issue.

It's not pre-good Rolf bad though either. Leo's at least comparing to his team.

So is Rolf. His damage is quite nice on things he doubles. Basically, he's passable as a cleanup member (OHKOs weakened things, mostly), and then once 3-5 rolls around he at least starts doubling some things. On those enemies, he's about as good as Shinon. Well, maybe not till 3-7. Anyway, Leo can't even say any of that. Most of the time it takes three units to KO in the DB, unless one of those units is Sothe or Volug.

Oh, and since a bunch of the GMs 2RKO anyway, Rolf being able to combo with them for a 2RKO isn't a bad thing.

Oh, and I forgot earlier, but for some stupid reason you can't forge light for the entirety of part 3. If you want to get a forge for Rhys, you have to do it in part 1 and have Ilyana drag it over. And it costs a bit more than thunder to forge.

Edited October 14, 2009 by Narga_Rocks

[grandjackal]

Eddie at level 11 (yes, only level 11) promotes and has 12 Str. Max Iron is 11 Mt. This is 23 mt. Leo support, this is 24 Mt. He also has 17 AS.

Chapter 1-5:

1x Fire Mage lvl 10 (Fire, droppable Vulnerary)

HP 21, Atk 15, AS 10, Hit 115, Avo 27, DEF 5, RES 9, Crit 4, Ddg 7

1x Fire Mage lvl 11 (Fire)

HP 22, Atk 15, AS 11, Hit 115, Avo 29, DEF 5, RES 10, Crit 4, Ddg 7

2x fire Mage lvl 12 (Fire)

HP 22, Atk 16, AS 11, Hit 117, Avo 29, DEF 5, RES 10, Crit 5, Ddg 7

4x Fighter lvl 11 (Steel Axe)

HP 30, Atk 26, AS 12, Hit 104, Avo 31, DEF 8, RES 3, Crit 5, Ddg 7

1x Fighter lvl 11 (Iron Axe)

HP 30, Atk 23, AS 12, Hit 109, Avo 31, DEF 8, RES 3, Crit 5, Ddg 7

1x Fighter lvl 11 (Hand Axe)

HP 30, Atk 24, AS 12, Hit 99, Avo 31, DEF 8, RES 3, Crit 5, Ddg 7

1x Fighter lvl 12 (Steel Axe)

HP 31, Atk 26, AS 12, Hit 106, Avo 31, DEF 8, RES 3, Crit 6, Ddg 7

1x Archer lvl 10 (Iron Bow)

HP 24, Atk 20, AS 12, Hit 120, Avo 31, DEF 9, RES 4, Crit 7, Ddg 7

1x Archer lvl 11 (Steel Bow)

HP 24, Atk 24, AS 13, Hit 116, Avo 34, DEF 9, RES 4, Crit 7, Ddg 8

1x Myrmidon lvl 10 (Steel Sword)

HP 23, Atk 18, AS 13, Hit 120, Avo 33, DEF 7, RES 3, Crit 12, Ddg 7

1x Myrmidon lvl 11 (Steel Sword)

HP 24, Atk 19, AS 15, Hit 120, Avo 37, DEF 8, RES 3, Crit 12, Ddg 7

1x Myrmidon lvl 12 (Steel Sword)

HP 25, Atk 19, AS 15, Hit 122, Avo 37, DEF 8, RES 4, Crit 12, Ddg 7

4x Soldier lvl 11 (Steel Lance, one has stealable vulnerary)

HP 27, Atk 23, AS 13, Hit 111, Avo 33, DEF 10, RES 6, Crit 6, Ddg 7

2x Soldier lvl 12 (Javelin)

HP 28, Atk 20, AS 13, Hit 98, Avo 33, DEF 11, RES 6, Crit 6, Ddg 7

1x Soldier lvl 13 (Javelin)

HP 28, Atk 20, AS 13, Hit 98, Avo 33, DEF 11, RES 6, Crit 6, Ddg 7

1x Soldier lvl 13 (Steel Lance, stealable Master Seal)

HP 28, Atk 24, AS 13, Hit 114, Avo 34, DEF 11, RES 6, Crit 6, Ddg 8

1x Priest (Heal, stealable Vulnerary)

HP 21, Atk --, AS 9, Hit --, Avo 31, DEF 5, RES 13, Crit -- Ddg 13

1x Wystan lvl 14 (Fire Mage boss, Elfire, stealable Shine Barrier)

HP 25, Atk 21, AS 12, Hit 115, Avo 32, DEF 5, RES 12, Crit 5, Ddg 8

Reinforcements:

2x Fire Mage lvl 12 (Fire, Turn 1, southeast)

HP 22, Atk 15, AS 11, Hit 117, Avo 29, DEF 5, RES 11, Crit 5, Ddg 7

1x Soldier lvl 13 (Steel Lance, Turn 1, east)

HP 28, Atk 24, AS 13, Hit 114, Avo 34, DEF 11, RES 6, Crit 6, Ddg 8

1x Fighter lvl 13 (Steel Axe, Turn 1, east)

HP 31, Atk 27, AS 13, Hit 106, Avo 33, DEF 9, RES 3, Crit 6, Ddg 7

2x Soldier lvl 11 (Steel Lance, Turn 2, northwest)

HP 27, Atk 23, AS 13, Hit 111, Avo 33, DEF 10, RES 6, Crit 6, Ddg 7

2x Myrmidon lvl 12 (Steel Sword, Turn 3, southwest)

HP 25, Atk 19, AS 15, Hit 122, Avo 37, DEF 8, RES 4, Crit 12, Ddg 7

1x Soldier lvl 11 (Steel Lance, Turn 3, southeast)

HP 27, Atk 23, AS 13, Hit 111, Avo 33, DEF 10, RES 6, Crit 6, Ddg 7

1x Soldier lvl 12 (Steel Lance, Turn 3, southeast)

HP 27, Atk 23, AS 13, Hit 113, Avo 33, DEF 11, RES 6, Crit 6, Ddg 7

1x Soldier lvl 13 (Javelin, Turn 4, northeast)

HP 28, Atk 20, AS 13, Hit 98, Avo 33, DEF 11, RES 6, Crit 6, Ddg 7

1x Archer lvl 12 (Steel Bow, Turn 4, northeast)

HP 26, Atk 24, AS 13, Hit 116, Avo 34, DEF 10, RES 4, Crit 7, Ddg 8

Looking it over, this doesn't ORKO 1 fighter,

This fails to kill about 5 soldiers. He also has 8+10 crit. Do notice that's 11-10 displayed crit on all these fools. I do not count the turn 4 soldier, because that's basically the end of the chapter. However, do note that there are plenty of myrms with 13 AS, of which he can double. Only other people ORKOing them are Sothe and Volug.

Only problem is 26 HP and 8+1 Def. Not exactly solid, as you can see. However he does have 45 base avoid, a C with Nolan boosts it to 52. Only 8 off Sothe, and this is what Volug has. He can reduce some people to below 50 hit, so biorythm can play in his favor.

But that last bit is why I'm nervous.

[tehnikhil]

Either way, now that I know that the chapter can be played out all the way and Haar can just ignore Ludvek, the arguement is pointless, because he doesn't even have to run after him to get max BEXP. Although, what is the point of mentioning Ludvek's small critical chance? I mean, that is like banking on a 2% crit to kill a boss when your character is at like 5 hp. It just doesn't happen.

Someone already mentioned that heather will be getting the grass, so I don't have to talk about that.

Sorry, but I have some work that I have to do today, and I may be busy for the rest of the week, so I may not get to responding to the arguements just yet. Sorry about that :P.

[Shadow Mir]

Either way, now that I know that the chapter can be played out all the way and Haar can just ignore Ludvek, the arguement is pointless, because he doesn't even have to run after him to get max BEXP. Although, what is the point of mentioning Ludvek's small critical chance? I mean, that is like banking on a 2% crit to kill a boss when your character is at like 5 hp. It just doesn't happen.

Someone already mentioned that heather will be getting the grass, so I don't have to talk about that.

Sorry, but I have some work that I have to do today, and I may be busy for the rest of the week, so I may not get to responding to the arguements just yet. Sorry about that :P.

Sure, 3% may be small, but considering the consequences if it happens (dead Haar)... Also, it shows that the hammer Haar strategy isn't foolproof.

Edited October 14, 2009 by Richter Renard

[Narga_Rocks]

Either way, now that I know that the chapter can be played out all the way and Haar can just ignore Ludvek, the arguement is pointless, because he doesn't even have to run after him to get max BEXP. Although, what is the point of mentioning Ludvek's small critical chance? I mean, that is like banking on a 2% crit to kill a boss when your character is at like 5 hp. It just doesn't happen.

3% chance for something good to happen is way different from a 3% chance for something bad to happen. I don't know why lots of people need this concept explained to them.

The idea is that Haar may cause a reset. This is very bad.

How about a different angle. In a typical playthrough, what do you get out of the 3% chance? What do you get in the 97% chance? If the 97% chance involves dying and the 3% chance involves living, I'd say that's bad. If the 3% chance involves dying (A) and the 97% chance (B ) involves doing something you could do safely in another way?

I'd have to say the badness from A is like, -1000 utility.

The goodness from B is like 10 utility, since you could just use Elincia.

(-1000) x .03 + 10 x .97 = -30 + 9.7 = -20.3. Clearly bad.

In the other example, assuming the same utilities where badness is -1000 and goodness that you could achieve with a different strategy anyway is 10.

So now it's .97 x (-1000) + .03 x 10 = -969.7. Clearly very bad.

Regardless, both of these strategies are clearly bad ideas. It of course depends on the weight of the result. Assuming we value not having to reset very highly (which we should), clearly the 3% chance of resetting should be weighed as more important than the 97% chance of success when we can use a safer method. It might be less clear-cut if we actually shave off a turn using the more dangerous method, but then you still need to determine what the utility of A is and the utility of B is before calculating whether it's a good idea, and compare to the utility of other ideas and see if any of them are significantly higher.

Of course, since it's rather difficult to boil down Fire Emblem into actual numbers for utility, I'd have to say it's simpler to say:

Avoiding the possibility of resets = good, and judge ideas based on what drives that possibility to the lowest possible without giving up something of similar value to not having to reset.

[dondon151]

Why do I seem to recall that you can sell neither Master Seals nor Master Crowns?

EDIT: Wait, I misread something. Disregard that statement.

Edited October 14, 2009 by dondon151