OMG it's a tier list

[grandjackal]

Anyone think Gareth>Renning on the basis that blood tide is better than being a foul combatant outside of 4-E-3?

[Narga_Rocks]

Anyone think Gareth>Renning on the basis that blood tide is better than being a foul combatant outside of 4-E-3?

And like 8 Generals in 4-E-1 and a some of the reinforcements. Anything with 25 AS gets doubled by Renning, and he has better hit than a bunch of other hammer options. Also, brave axe in 4-E-5 with an Elincia support could be good, too. That's pretty much it, though.

[grandjackal]

Anyone think Gareth>Renning on the basis that blood tide is better than being a foul combatant outside of 4-E-3?

And like 8 Generals in 4-E-1 and a some of the reinforcements. Anything with 25 AS gets doubled by Renning, and he has better hit than a bunch of other hammer options. Also, brave axe in 4-E-5 with an Elincia support could be good, too. That's pretty much it, though.

Ok, foul outside of special weapons and specific targeting? You agreeing or no?

[Narga_Rocks]

Anyone think Gareth>Renning on the basis that blood tide is better than being a foul combatant outside of 4-E-3?

And like 8 Generals in 4-E-1 and a some of the reinforcements. Anything with 25 AS gets doubled by Renning, and he has better hit than a bunch of other hammer options. Also, brave axe in 4-E-5 with an Elincia support could be good, too. That's pretty much it, though.

Ok, foul outside of special weapons and specific targeting? You agreeing or no?

I am neutral. I like blood tide, but I don't really see much benefit in 4-E-4. More trouble than its worth. 4-E-5 is great, though. I use him and Ena, and generally their blood tide gets activated like 4 times each on turn 1, and I don't remember how much on turn 2. Renning is just like everyone else, only worse. I suppose I'm leaning towards Gareth > Renning, but I'm not hugely in favour of it.

[grandjackal]

At least it shows that both being next to each other is the right idea.

Speaking of dragons, what of Kurth? I think it comes down to this to be brief.

4-E-1-Bastian snipes and heals, Kurth applies night tide and chips. Bastian can't snipe forever since weapons aren't blessed yet, which case he's more vulnerable to counters. With night tide and a cover tile, Kurth CAN allow him some tanking ability, as then Bastian would have 30 Def and 45 HP. 45 Mt is reduced to 15, a 3RKO. Since the average attack is generally 42, he can take 4 shots and blast with his high magic stat. The important aspect is that Kurth is the one doing this for him, and yet Kurth can do this to others, so he's not dependent on Bastian to have this sort of utility. Bastian however, is.

4-E-2-Bastian can snipe, Kurth can't, advantage Bastian.

4-E-3-Bastian might be a better chipper, but he has to take a counter. Bolting is ridiculous to get, so his best bet is Thoro- oh wait, A rank and can't have it be any better. Seems his best bet is a forged thunder. for basically 59 Mt. Neither are killing anything. Another problem is that Bastian has to take a counter, while Kurth is invincible, since dragons can't attack him. 55 Mt to 2RKO him through Res, 46 Mt physical. I'd doubt he's safe in a combo, because only 46 mt for physical is a LOT of leeway for red dragons. 58 mt, that's 38 damage. Leaves him at 7 HP. White dragons have 56 mt, to his 32 Res that's 24 damage. 2RKOd by basically everything on the map. Howver, guess who can save his life from a white dragon team up? Kurth. No wardwood required. Even a cover tile won't save him from Reds. But tiles and Kurth can. Kurth basically has the ability to amplify tiles, and it is possible to save a life with that kind of power. That saves us a reset, and he's always gonna be able to do it. Bastian's capability of dying can't even come close to saying the same.

4-E-4-Honestly no idea what kind of impact either could have on this map. Both could down a holy water and basically be invincible to the spirits. I recall Narga saying they have a bit more defensive stats than the enemy stat list implies. If that's the case, with the strongest sniper magic, Bastian at best would probably be doing 10-8 damage. Uhhh, do reminds me to care later. At least Kurth with a heron does 19-17 damage. Needs a heron, but it's twice what Bastian's doing, AND puts night tide on sight to combat spirits and Sephiran with more care. Not sure either win.

4-E-5- Well Kurth can't snipe, and both are doing generally just as well, but I guess 2 blood tides could put Kurth's offense to greater levels than Bastian with merely Nasir. Still a tad ridiculous the former scenario, but at least it's possible. On the other hand, Bastian wouldn't be clogging up a slot. Again, both sort of suck here.

Bastian has staffs, but it's only after the fact, while Night Tide could help someone survive something they normally couldn't during enemy phase. Then there is the obvious benefits. Water>Wind by a mile, faster leveling speed, greater growths, dragon impunity, being forced. Another interesting thought is Dragonfoe use. Bastian could slap it on for 30 mt Fire forge tomes, bringing his offense to 65 Mt Res. Kurth could too, and he'd have a 36 Mt strike, adding his +30 Str he would have 36 Mt, putting it to better use than Bastian could, especially since Kurth never eats a counter. That's 32x2 damage against Reds, would kill whites. A Blood Tide, he could kill weaker end reds. It's a weird thought, but it's there. He's forced anyways, so might as well. He'd be a dragon killing machine, since he could just do it to his heart's delight.

I dunno, it does come kinda close, but...I think Kurth's forcedness, night tide and 4-R-3 impunity is a tad underrated.

I suppose I'm not considering 4-5 though...

[Florete]

4-E-1-Bastian snipes and heals, Kurth applies night tide and chips. Bastian can't snipe forever since weapons aren't blessed yet, which case he's more vulnerable to counters. With night tide and a cover tile, Kurth CAN allow him some tanking ability, as then Bastian would have 30 Def and 45 HP. 45 Mt is reduced to 15, a 3RKO. Since the average attack is generally 42, he can take 4 shots and blast with his high magic stat. The important aspect is that Kurth is the one doing this for him, and yet Kurth can do this to others, so he's not dependent on Bastian to have this sort of utility. Bastian however, is.

Wha? Bastian rarely has to get attacked. He either Physics or attacks what won't counter. And Kurth is no tank; His 20 AS gets doubled by everything, and lol5 transformed move.

4-E-3-Bastian might be a better chipper, but he has to take a counter.

Wha? Do Meteor and Blizzard no longer exist?

Bolting is ridiculous to get, so his best bet is Thoro- oh wait, A rank and can't have it be any better.

Wha? Damn straight Bastian can reach S Thunder. No offense, but do you ever do your research on this game?

I recall Narga saying they have a bit more defensive stats than the enemy stat list implies.

They don't, and I don't remember him saying that.

If that's the case, with the strongest sniper magic, Bastian at best would probably be doing 10-8 damage. Uhhh, do reminds me to care later. At least Kurth with a heron does 19-17 damage. Needs a heron, but it's twice what Bastian's doing, AND puts night tide on sight to combat spirits and Sephiran with more care. Not sure either win.

4-E-5- Well Kurth can't snipe, and both are doing generally just as well, but I guess 2 blood tides could put Kurth's offense to greater levels than Bastian with merely Nasir. Still a tad ridiculous the former scenario, but at least it's possible. On the other hand, Bastian wouldn't be clogging up a slot. Again, both sort of suck here.

What level are you assuming Kurth can reasonably get to? And I hope you're not going to try giving him S Strike.

Water>Wind by a mile

Who cares? Neither will be building a support in any reasonable amount of time.

greater growths

Including that amazing 20% Skl. Yeah, Kurth has serious Hit issues.

[Narga_Rocks]

I recall Narga saying they have a bit more defensive stats than the enemy stat list implies.

They don't, and I don't remember him saying that.

Well, the wind/thunder spirits have 38hp/23def and the fire spirits have 40hp/25def.

This makes them appear to only have 38/20 and 40/22, however, this shows spirits to all have +3 def above those bases.

No idea why the game did it that way.

You can also see that Auras actually only have 28def/res at base, but get a +2/+2 for some inexplicable reason, resulting in the 30 def/res that we all know and love.

However, the spirits don't get any extra res, so:

38hp/32res is accurate for the wind spirits, and 40hp/30res for fire spirits and 38hp/30res for the thunder spirits.

And with Bastian's 35 magic and SS wind at base, that's 48 mt.

So 18 damage (to fire/thunder) or 16 damage (to wind). And considering how many characters don't ORKO these things, I think any unit would be quite happy to have Bastian attack it first. Also with more accuracy than Kurth is pulling. Or he could just go with ranged bombing, though that would be less accurate than Rexcalibur's 105 hit, and probably less accurate than Kurth.

27 skill and 21 luck vs.

18 skill and 21 luck.

Kurth has a 60% luck growth, but Bastian has a 70% skill growth. At base Bastian is 18 hit more accurate, and Rexcalibur has 10 more hit, so 28 more. Blizzard has 75 hit, so he only loses hit by 2, and if they both get some levels chances are Bastian gets even more hit since he has a 180% hit growth and Kurth has a 140% hit growth.

Even Meteor is only a loss of 7 hit.

Edited October 16, 2009 by Narga_Rocks

[Florete]

I recall Narga saying they have a bit more defensive stats than the enemy stat list implies.

They don't, and I don't remember him saying that.

Well, the wind/thunder spirits have 38hp/23def and the fire spirits have 40hp/25def.

This makes them appear to only have 38/20 and 40/22, however, this shows spirits to all have +3 def above those bases.

No idea why the game did it that way.

You can also see that Auras actually only have 28def/res at base, but get a +2/+2 for some inexplicable reason, resulting in the 30 def/res that we all know and love.

Well that's weird. I could have sworn the stats listed in the enemy stats topic were right because I thought they were recorded straight from the game. Although when I said that I was under the assumption it was 38/23 and 40/25, since those are the values I remembered. Oh well, it doesn't actually change the argument. In fact, it will only make it worse for Kurthnaga.

[Narga_Rocks]

I recall Narga saying they have a bit more defensive stats than the enemy stat list implies.

They don't, and I don't remember him saying that.

Well, the wind/thunder spirits have 38hp/23def and the fire spirits have 40hp/25def.

This makes them appear to only have 38/20 and 40/22, however, this shows spirits to all have +3 def above those bases.

No idea why the game did it that way.

You can also see that Auras actually only have 28def/res at base, but get a +2/+2 for some inexplicable reason, resulting in the 30 def/res that we all know and love.

Well that's weird. I could have sworn the stats listed in the enemy stats topic were right because I thought they were recorded straight from the game. Although when I said that I was under the assumption it was 38/23 and 40/25, since those are the values I remembered. Oh well, it doesn't actually change the argument. In fact, it will only make it worse for Kurthnaga.

Yep, def went up, not res. Poor Kurth. And Vykan just calculated all the stats he gave you. It's why the part 4 enemies don't have their in game crit but received the tier 2 bonuses: he got it wrong. Although, the amount of work put forth is still to be appreciated. Nobody is perfect.

[Interceptor]

Pass. Shinon. Soren even, since he can OHKO a fair number of enemies after a single GM attacks it. Soren 2RKOs lots, so anything that 2RKOs and hits first should work. If you forge light in part 1 and send it to Rhys, I think even he can pull it off on some enemies. Canto's an advantage, and I admit that, but it's not exactly game-breaking.

And to add to this, transfer Mia doesn't gain any weight. She is still shovable by every unit in the game that has Shove, except Sanaki. Given how dense 3-3's alternate paths are with thickets, that gives her a decent tactical advantage when it comes to moving forward (and fighting in thickets is obviously a huge boon for her in general).

[charmander6000]

Going back for a second Leo getting beastfoe is like Mia getting adept right?

[Interceptor]

Going back for a second Leo getting beastfoe is like Mia getting adept right?

No, not really. Beastfoe is more or less a ORKO for a lot of people on the team, so offensively Leonardo has some credible competition. This isn't really like the situation with Mia, where she's more than twice as good with it on something she doubles and 3HKOs vs. someone who 2HKOs and doesn't double.

On top of that, Leonardo can only realistically use it on Player Phase. This does make him the safest Beastfoe user, since he does not counter with his PRF weapon (aka he has a 0% chance to clear space on Enemy Phase and endanger himself), but I wouldn't say that safety necessarily made him the best with it. Nolan and Jill can also safely use Beastfoe, even if not to the extent that Leo can.

[Blademaster!]

Going back for a second Leo getting beastfoe is like Mia getting adept right?

No, not really. Beastfoe is more or less a ORKO for a lot of people on the team, so offensively Leonardo has some credible competition. This isn't really like the situation with Mia, where she's more than twice as good with it on something she doubles and 3HKOs vs. someone who 2HKOs and doesn't double.

On top of that, Leonardo can only realistically use it on Player Phase. This does make him the safest Beastfoe user, since he does not counter with his PRF weapon (aka he has a 0% chance to clear space on Enemy Phase and endanger himself), but I wouldn't say that safety necessarily made him the best with it. Nolan and Jill can also safely use Beastfoe, even if not to the extent that Leo can.

Why would Leonardo ever use his PRF weapon with Beastfoe when he OHKO's everything on 3-6 with a crossbow?

[Interceptor]

Why would Leonardo ever use his PRF weapon with Beastfoe when he OHKO's everything on 3-6 with a crossbow?

Since Leo doesn't counter with his PRF bow, that means that I can plug a hole with him, and not worry about him clearing space and killing himself, like I would with Nolan. It's not impossible to get him to a point where he is 2RKO'ed by the map, so you can keep him alive with chain-healing or by manipulating a laguz to untrnasform in front of the only facing that he has.

[Narga_Rocks]

Do people actually buy him a crossbow? Why?

Bowgun: 2000 G for 40 shots, 24 mt x 3 = 72 mt. Toughest enemy in 3-6: 52hp, 20def tiger. Anyone notice anything interesting? 3-13 might have some 22 def tigers, but

a: 3-13 isn't sped up by being able to OHKO

b: Leo should have 17 speed by now anyway and Lugh doubles and thus ORKOs the things anyway. A 48mt weapon goes a long way. With zero str Leo could 2HKO 52hp/22def tigers with Lugh and beastfoe. Needs str + spd >= 22 and spd >= 17 for doubling, of course, since Lugh has 5 wt and he needs 17 AS before the +5 bonus to reach 22 AS, but he has 8 base str so the only issue is getting to 17 speed. 20/2 or 20/3. Or like 17/5 or 17/6, etc.

Also, with 48 mt he just needs 12 str to OHKO a 44hp, 16 def cat, and that's level 14 unsupported. And the bowgun OHKOs cats anyway with 72 mt.

(edit: since he needs to promote for beastfoe, 12/1 would work.)

I just don't understand why you'd want to waste money buying something completely unnecessary, yet everyone always says "crossbow on Leo", which doesn't make any sense.

Crossbow: 3500 G and 35 shots, OHKOing with more mt than another weapon OHKOs with is irrelevant.

Oh, 42 hp, 16 def hawks fall to a Leo with just 10 str. Level 9. Leo can literally not even promote and still OHKO the hawks. Or just use a ballista.

edit: Ooh, forgot, supports. 72 + 2 = 74 and it OHKOs 52hp, 22def tigers anyway.

Edited October 16, 2009 by Narga_Rocks

[Blademaster!]

Why would Leonardo ever use his PRF weapon with Beastfoe when he OHKO's everything on 3-6 with a crossbow?

Since Leo doesn't counter with his PRF bow, that means that I can plug a hole with him, and not worry about him clearing space and killing himself, like I would with Nolan. It's not impossible to get him to a point where he is 2RKO'ed by the map, so you can keep him alive with chain-healing or by manipulating a laguz to untrnasform in front of the only facing that he has.

I am never ever going to understand how tier lists work if people are making statements like this proving that Archers not being able to counter 1 range can be a good thing. I mean, the only thing that I could imagine is keeping Shinon out of top tier would be the fact that he can't counter. The only stat he does poorly in is really just str, and that is fixed with the silencer once you can buy it at 3-4 and the killer bow. And even str he doesn't do to bad in. And unless you did a data transfer, Rolf is very likely not going to be able to use the silencer by 3-4.

And speaking of Shinon, the fact that he is capping skl and spd with a data transfer at his base level should make him an amazing candidate for bxp, as he is only 2 points away from capping hp and res, 3 points for magic, and 4 points for def. I don't think the data transfer version of Shinon would be equal to his non data transfer version if he already has 2 stats capped at his base lvl.

Do people actually buy him a crossbow? Why?

Bowgun: 2000 G for 40 shots, 24 mt x 3 = 72 mt. Toughest enemy in 3-6: 52hp, 20def tiger. Anyone notice anything interesting? 3-13 might have some 22 def tigers, but

a: 3-13 isn't sped up by being able to OHKO

b: Leo should have 17 speed by now anyway and Lugh doubles and thus ORKOs the things anyway. A 48mt weapon goes a long way. With zero str Leo could 2HKO 52hp/22def tigers with Lugh and beastfoe. Needs str + spd >= 22 and spd >= 17 for doubling, of course, since Lugh has 5 wt and he needs 17 AS before the +5 bonus to reach 22 AS, but he has 8 base str so the only issue is getting to 17 speed. 20/2 or 20/3. Or like 17/5 or 17/6, etc.

Also, with 48 mt he just needs 12 str to OHKO a 44hp, 16 def cat, and that's level 14 unsupported. And the bowgun OHKOs cats anyway with 72 mt.

I just don't understand why you'd want to waste money buying something completely unnecessary, yet everyone always says "crossbow on Leo", which doesn't make any sense.

Crossbow: 3500 G and 35 shots, OHKOing with more mt than another weapon OHKOs with is irrelevant.

Oh, 42 hp, 16 def hawks fall to a Leo with just 10 str. Level 9. Leo can literally not even promote and still OHKO the hawks. Or just use a ballista.

Crossbows guarantee kills. His PRF weapon doesn't. Also, is 3500 G really all that much? I can't imagine it would be.

Also, on the subject of Calill receiving Largo's bonuses, the official Japanese website says that she does, so at the very least it is confirmed for the Japanese version. I can't imagine why this would be removed in the U.S. version considering all the things they added on to make this game easier (The 3 DB PRF weapons, no longer needing master crowns, etc.).

[Narga_Rocks]

Why would Leonardo ever use his PRF weapon with Beastfoe when he OHKO's everything on 3-6 with a crossbow?

Since Leo doesn't counter with his PRF bow, that means that I can plug a hole with him, and not worry about him clearing space and killing himself, like I would with Nolan. It's not impossible to get him to a point where he is 2RKO'ed by the map, so you can keep him alive with chain-healing or by manipulating a laguz to untrnasform in front of the only facing that he has.

I am never ever going to understand how tier lists work if people are making statements like this proving that Archers not being able to counter 1 range can be a good thing. I mean, the only thing that I could imagine is keeping Shinon out of top tier would be the fact that he can't counter. The only stat he does poorly in is really just str, and that is fixed with the silencer once you can buy it at 3-4 and the killer bow. And even str he doesn't do to bad in. And unless you did a data transfer, Rolf is very likely not going to be able to use the silencer by 3-4.

It's a single chapter in which it is good. Any unit doing enemy phase damage runs the risk of killing enough enemies that it gets attacked by more than it can take. Leo walks up, blocks a chokepoint, and uses Lugh to ORKO tigers with beastfoe or 90% with wrath while Nolan can stand next to him (not in range) and kill other enemies with bowgun and beastfoe because Leo having wrath lets us use both. Or he simply doesn't choke point and Jill does and Nolan and Leo can both be KOing stuff. The point is, not all chapters have the same circumstance. You can't look at one thing we say is an advantage in one chapter and start applying it to other chapters when it isn't true in the other chapters. Shinon doesn't do nearly as much as the other units around him because they can take out multiples on enemy phase and not die because they have durability and aren't facing enemies that 2HKO them at high hit rates. And he needs his str fixed before he's consistently ORKOing even with silencer.

And speaking of Shinon, the fact that he is capping skl and spd with a data transfer at his base level should make him an amazing candidate for bxp, as he is only 2 points away from capping hp and res, 3 points for magic, and 4 points for def. I don't think the data transfer version of Shinon would be equal to his non data transfer version if he already has 2 stats capped at his base lvl.

All it boosts is his str, or at least that's the only important thing being boosted earlier with it. Which basically means as soon as he gets the silencer he should be ORKOing, or at least a level or two earlier than normal. So the difference is a couple of chapters more of pulling ORKOs than before. Still restricted to player phase, and any crossbow action doesn't care that he has more str than before. So does ORKOing a couple of things earlier move him above Nolan? I doubt it. Not if Shinon(N) isn't above him. Beyond that, of course Shinon(T) > Shinon(N), but there isn't really much point in listing him twice if nobody is in between, is there? Elincia is better than before, considering 24 speed lets her start doubling 3 levels earlier in part 4, and so are a few other units, but that doesn't necessarily put them higher when compared to the other units than previously.

Crossbows guarantee kills. His PRF weapon doesn't. Also, is 3500 G really all that much? I can't imagine it would be.

1500 is probably boosting your forge by another 10 hit and adding 1 mt. Every bit you don't waste on unnecessary things means more can be spent on things like forges. And lugh DOES guarantee kills on cats. And the bowgun guarantees kills on EVERYTHING in 3-6. What's your problem?

Also, 15/1 or 16/1 Leo has 15 AS and thus ORKOs the 16 AS tigers in 3-6. Did you notice how he could gain 0 str the entire game and still pull it off, with extra? All he needs is spd.

So now his personal weapon also guarantees kills on everything in 3-6 except 2 tigers. Boohoo, bowgun KOs them anyway.

I honestly don't see your problem, or how your statement is actually true.

And while you said some untrue things about the crossbow vs. his personal weapon, I notice you didn't even address the whole bowgun thing. You know, how it does the same job in 3-6 as the crossbow?

Also, on the subject of Calill receiving Largo's bonuses, the official Japanese website says that she does, so at the very least it is confirmed for the Japanese version. I can't imagine why this would be removed in the U.S. version considering all the things they added on to make this game easier (The 3 DB PRF weapons, no longer needing master crowns, etc.).

Also don't forget about resolve and wrath not needing to activate. Wrath only had a chance to boost crit by 50%. Resolve needed <20% hp and also needed to activate, rather than the 100% at <50% hp it is in NA. Mordy would have to drop with that kind of resolve. But they could have just screwed it up. Clearly it doesn't work on Red Fox of Fire's disk.

[dondon151]

I'm pretty sure, Narga, that people freely interchange "Bowgun" and "Crossbow," because I always use a Bowgun on 3-6 yet I always refer to it as a crossbow. Because it is, in fact, a crossbow, but not a "Crossbow."

[Narga_Rocks]

I'm pretty sure, Narga, that people freely interchange "Bowgun" and "Crossbow," because I always use a Bowgun on 3-6 yet I always refer to it as a crossbow. Because it is, in fact, a crossbow, but not a "Crossbow."

I understand that. Except when some people say crossbow, I think they truly mean crossbow, unlike you who uses a bowgun. And yeah, I suppose it's type is crossbow, although I don't know if that's just a label we've given those types of weapons, since I'm not sure the game says they are all "crossbows". Or does it? I don't remember the discriptions. It's possible they say "a stronger crossbow", and "the strongest crossbow", or words like that in the descriptions.

[Blademaster!]

Why would Leonardo ever use his PRF weapon with Beastfoe when he OHKO's everything on 3-6 with a crossbow?

Since Leo doesn't counter with his PRF bow, that means that I can plug a hole with him, and not worry about him clearing space and killing himself, like I would with Nolan. It's not impossible to get him to a point where he is 2RKO'ed by the map, so you can keep him alive with chain-healing or by manipulating a laguz to untrnasform in front of the only facing that he has.

I am never ever going to understand how tier lists work if people are making statements like this proving that Archers not being able to counter 1 range can be a good thing. I mean, the only thing that I could imagine is keeping Shinon out of top tier would be the fact that he can't counter. The only stat he does poorly in is really just str, and that is fixed with the silencer once you can buy it at 3-4 and the killer bow. And even str he doesn't do to bad in. And unless you did a data transfer, Rolf is very likely not going to be able to use the silencer by 3-4.

Shinon doesn't do nearly as much as the other units around him because they can take out multiples on enemy phase and not die because they have durability and aren't facing enemies that 2HKO them at high hit rates. And he needs his str fixed before he's consistently ORKOing even with silencer.

And speaking of Shinon, the fact that he is capping skl and spd with a data transfer at his base level should make him an amazing candidate for bxp, as he is only 2 points away from capping hp and res, 3 points for magic, and 4 points for def. I don't think the data transfer version of Shinon would be equal to his non data transfer version if he already has 2 stats capped at his base lvl.

All it boosts is his str, or at least that's the only important thing being boosted earlier with it. Which basically means as soon as he gets the silencer he should be ORKOing, or at least a level or two earlier than normal. So the difference is a couple of chapters more of pulling ORKOs than before. Still restricted to player phase, and any crossbow action doesn't care that he has more str than before. So does ORKOing a couple of things earlier move him above Nolan? I doubt it. Not if Shinon(N) isn't above him. Beyond that, of course Shinon(T) > Shinon(N), but there isn't really much point in listing him twice if nobody is in between, is there? Elincia is better than before, considering 24 speed lets her start doubling 3 levels earlier in part 4, and so are a few other units, but that doesn't necessarily put them higher when compared to the other units than previously.

Crossbows guarantee kills. His PRF weapon doesn't. Also, is 3500 G really all that much? I can't imagine it would be.

1500 is probably boosting your forge by another 10 hit and adding 1 mt. Every bit you don't waste on unnecessary things means more can be spent on things like forges. And lugh DOES guarantee kills on cats. And the bowgun guarantees kills on EVERYTHING in 3-6. What's your problem?

The fact that you can make the statement that Shinon is having trouble consistently ORKO'ing with the silencer is mind boggling. If Shinon isn't ORKO'ing consistently with the silencer at BASE str, no one should be ORKO'ing anything ever without a critial or adept. Silencer has 16 might. Shinon has base 21 str. 21 + 16 = 37. Ike at max str with Ettard should be ORKO'ing anything except generals(assuming he doubles), and that only brings his max damage to 39.

Also, the only units I imagine the GM's have who can attack and kill multiple enemies effectively in HM are Gatrie, Haar, and Brom, and even they are still dying if there are to many enemies. (They have better chances than the DB, but they are still dying.)

Also, I am not a person to argue Nolan to be moved done. Having 5 out of 7 playthoughs with him having sub par performance, one with him having decent, and only on my most recent with him actually being pretty good, I have a terrible bias towards him. My playing style does not welcome Nolan very well. Esspecially in hard mode, and especially in part 3 where Aran and Tauroneo are king (at least for me anyway).

I get the feeling I should have more to say, but it escapes me at the moment, so I'm sorry if my argument seems incomplete or something.

[Interceptor]

If Shinon isn't ORKO'ing consistently with the silencer at BASE str, no one should be ORKO'ing anything ever without a critial or adept. [...]

And now you know one of the reasons why Mia is dominating High tier.

EDIT: although it's not technically true that nobody is ORKO'ing cleanly, it's just hard to do it consistently. Ike can do it (Ettard is not his best weapon, just so that you know), Gatrie can do it if you early crown him (uncapped STR plus his axes make it possible), Ulki/Janaff can do it with some combination of Energy Drops and/or supports, etc.

Edited October 16, 2009 by Interceptor

[WeaponsofMassConstruction]

Boyd should be able to get a speed bonus.

He starts with 6.5 speed and gets to 24.15/27 naturally, leaving him 57 alterations short of a cap.

A speed band provides 37 alterations, so 20 left or exactly 1 point short of 27.

Boyd ends up with 31.7/30 points of str, which is enough to compensate for the 1 point of spd left needed by using iron.

[Florete]

Spd for Boyd is one of the bonuses I previously mentioned but haven't gotten to adding yet.

[grandjackal]

I'm gonna concede this one already, but I just wish to clarify a few points.

Wha? Bastian rarely has to get attacked. He either Physics or attacks what won't counter. And Kurth is no tank; His 20 AS gets doubled by everything, and lol5 transformed move.

4-E is rather cramped, and he usually starts out ahead due to forced placement (Or I'm remembering wrong). As for staffs, Night Tide could possibly save a life during enemy phase, while staffs can only be used after the fact. Basically, Night Tide allows a superior enemy phase, staffs player phase.

Granted he's no solid tank due to doubling, but I'd prefer him over Bastian. 10 HP and 10 Def lead on the shakesperien bastard. It can save a life to anyone with below 45 ATK, while Bastian is getting 2RKOd by anything with at least 43 ATK. Granted, that's a grand total of 12 units that show up on the map...

I dunno, some Bishops struggle to double Kurth? *a grin that says "trying too hard" *

I would bring up 4-E-2 and how all warriors, snipers and swordmasters have 28 AS or more, most of them able to just smoke Bastian, but Bastian can help snipe Levail to help us ignore this map...

Wha? Do Meteor and Blizzard no longer exist?

Meteor is the stronger, and gives 43 Mt, which is Kurth's base ATK. Basically it's Red or White between them, difference being that Kurth being on the front lines allows his Night Tide to be used, so it can help others perform better against both kidnds of dragons. Healing is nice, but I would also love to take on more dragons at once.

Wha? Damn straight Bastian can reach S Thunder. No offense, but do you ever do your research on this game?

Pardon this one, I was under the impression that depending on the sage, one form of magic would be stuck at A rank. Turns out it was staffs I was thinking, so uhh...FML.

Still though, he starts A rank. He can't possibly get to S in the little time he has (laguz chapter there are few dragons, using thunder on beasts and birds is what we call stupid) without an Arms Scroll.

What level are you assuming Kurth can reasonably get to? And I hope you're not going to try giving him S Strike.

I'm not THAT bad, am I? 70 attacks in this short amount of times would be insane.

As for the other part of the question, it really depends on how much exp he's getting. Lessee, he's basically a freshly promoted third tier. Enemies in 4-E-1 are level 14 tier two and up. I wish to clarify, don't 4-E enemies give saturated exp? I know I read it somewhere.

But now thinking of it however, I can't really say. BEXP would just give Kurth more HP, Luck and Str. The Str would be nice for the dragons, but..Yeah.

Who cares? Neither will be building a support in any reasonable amount of time.

Well hey, Id say +1 Def is doing more good than +3 Acc, wouldn't you agree?

Including that amazing 20% Skl. Yeah, Kurth has serious Hit issues.

Kurth has more hit with his attack than Bastian does with sniper magic, and I'm pretty sure that's all we're gonna be wanting him to use. Kurth's 54 base+95, compared to 75 base with 70 hit Meteor...It's miniscule, but I just found it a tad funny.

Edited October 16, 2009 by Galactica Leader Cyrus

[Blademaster!]

If Shinon isn't ORKO'ing consistently with the silencer at BASE str, no one should be ORKO'ing anything ever without a critial or adept. [...]

And now you know one of the reasons why Mia is dominating High tier.

EDIT: although it's not technically true that nobody is ORKO'ing cleanly, it's just hard to do it consistently. Ike can do it (Ettard is not his best weapon, just so that you know), Gatrie can do it if you early crown him (uncapped STR plus his axes make it possible), Ulki/Janaff can do it with some combination of Energy Drops and/or supports, etc.

Because she can use a skill anyone can use with a lower critical rate than Shinon (for a while anyway)? And even with adept, would that really save her by that much? I'd just like to see some numbers, like avg enemy def and Hp, and how much str she has by then and what weapon she's using or something like that. It's more of an In query than a complaint, I guess.

The only enemies I can't see people ORKO'ing consistently are Swordmasters and Generals due to their Spd and Def respectively.

I used Ettard as an example for Ike as I imagine it would be the most common weapon he is using until he gets Ragnell. Any sword more powerful than that I'd probably give to Mia or Mist.