OMG it's a tier list

[Narga_Rocks]

Hey, GJ, I made an edit about Ulki and halfshift.

[dondon151]

But it isn't a FREE slot.

There is no functional difference between being optimal and being free. Being free simply means there are absolutely no opportunity costs, whereas being optimal means that net profit is positive. You can be optimal without being free.

[Rewjeo]

Yeah, I realized that and made an edit.

[grandjackal]

For GJ, first off Ulki can no longer ORKO swordmasters, and considering this was a task he performed better even than Mia (she takes 1 to 3 % crit rates for a while, though by 3-8 she shouldn't be 3HKOd anymore) because he has 45 cev (good god), that makes me sad. Also, 29 mt will fail to 4HKO many things. Well, mainly halbs.

For "mainly halbs", I believe he was a runner up for the Energy Drops. Problem solved there.

As for swordmasters, that does indeed suck he doesn't ORKO them instantly, but he can still kill them the coming player phase and canto. He's also free to attack more often in player phase, so instead he can just attack them and on the coming turn they'd still be dead, as otherwise he would have just flown and grassed to prepare for enemy phase. Little has changed in that regard, especially after an energy drop.

Also him and Janaff will also be quite terrible on Generals.

Generals...Yeah, I admitted to that, that is a problem. However, Energy Drop he has 33 might and you can still slap Adept on him. It's not perfect, but it's a patch-up.

Best thing you can do with that is get Ulki to level 30 (bexp), give him Tear, and with 3x strength that should still be 21 x 3 + 8 = 71 mt in one hit. 27% for that and he gets two cracks at it (aside from on swordmasters). Anyway, other bad news is he'll probably fail to 2HKO some sages and since he is at best 4HKOing the tougher things like warriors and snipers he'll not be getting Adept considering he does less killing with it than Mia and she now beats his proc rate for Adept.

We can still give him that BEXP, but it's not like he needs it instantly (IMO anyways). He can wait.

As for your other complaint, energy drop, and the fact he has Water affinity.

As for Adept, we most likely also have Zihark's. No problem with her having that one when we have a second.

71 mt will OHKO most things in part 3, at least. Generals have mid to high 20s and low 40s, so it's fine for a while. Best General in 3-11 has 43 hp and 27 def. 70 mt OHKOs. Ulki doesn't even need his full power to "tear" that guy apart.

Are we truly so dependent on Ulki to take down generals? I'm pretty sure that even with normal transformation, you could probably find better people for the occasion.

[Shadow Mir]

Just because nobody noticed or nobody cared and I was busy a page ago when it happened:

Untransformed Lyre has 6 con. This game doesn't care about the wt of the shover. You need to at worst have 2 lower con than the other unit's wt. If you think about it, it makes some sense for units like Gatrie. That armor shouldn't necessarily make you able to shove heavier stuff, but that armor should make you harder to shove. Notice this is different than, say, fe9 where wt was all that mattered for both the shove-er and the shove-ee.

6 con lets her shove what? She can't even shove Rhys.

Next up, Lyre tranforms faster than Kyza? What, are you not using grass?

15 + 8 + 8 = 31. Transform turn 3.

15 + 10 + 10 = 35. Transform turn 3.

Oh look, Lyre and Kyza transform at the same time but Lyre untransforms faster.

Then there is the problem with halfshift that (Anouleth, was it?) someone pointed out. Lyre is easily 2HKOd while halfshifted. And with enemies in 3-10 having 21 AS or better for halbs/warriors/etc (and maybe a couple paladins, though I don't remember) there are a lot of things that ORKO her (and thus go uncountered on enemy phase). Meaning Lyre can't even run around halfshifted to more easily shove people. At least she has 11 con while transformed, but that is still really sad when you consider Kyza is walking around with 12 con even before transformation. That's right, aside from move untransformed Kyza can shove better than transformed Lyre can. Ouch. Also, untransformed Kyza has 8 more hp and the same def as halfshifted Lyre. As for halfshifted Kyza? Well, he has 55 hp and 15 def and is thus taking 43mt to bring down in two hits. 9 more than it takes to bring down Lyre. And oh yeah, he has 22 con while transformed. He can shove Ulki/Janaff quite easily, Ike as well. He can even shove tier 2 Gatrie, though admittedly if you are using Gatrie at this stage he is probably promoted and I think he hits 25 in tier 3.

Anyway, Lyre is a terrible shover compared to Kyza, whether you are considering both halfshifted or both untransformed or both trying to maintain full transformation. It's incredibly sad.

For GJ, first off Ulki can no longer ORKO swordmasters, and considering this was a task he performed better even than Mia (she takes 1 to 3 % crit rates for a while, though by 3-8 she shouldn't be 3HKOd anymore) because he has 45 cev (good god), that makes me sad. Also, 29 mt will fail to 4HKO many things. Well, mainly halbs. Also him and Janaff will also be quite terrible on Generals.

Best thing you can do with that is get Ulki to level 30 (bexp), give him Tear, and with 3x strength that should still be 21 x 3 + 8 = 71 mt in one hit. 27% for that and he gets two cracks at it (aside from on swordmasters). Anyway, other bad news is he'll probably fail to 2HKO some sages and since he is at best 4HKOing the tougher things like warriors and snipers he'll not be getting Adept considering he does less killing with it than Mia and she now beats his proc rate for Adept.

71 mt will OHKO most things in part 3, at least. Generals have mid to high 20s and low 40s, so it's fine for a while. Best General in 3-11 has 43 hp and 27 def. 70 mt OHKOs. Ulki doesn't even need his full power to "tear" that guy apart.

Bold: *rimshot*

That aside... I really have nothing to add to this.

[Dat Nick]

Next up, Lyre tranforms faster than Kyza? What, are you not using grass?

wtf? the only thing I said was Lyre doesn't stay transformed as long as Kyza.

[Narga_Rocks]

wtf? the only thing I said was Lyre doesn't stay transformed as long as Kyza.

Wasn't you, dude. Kirsche. Which one of you was supporting Lyre? The comment I was disputing was that Lyre transforms faster, something clearly in her favour if true.

Hmm, maybe you aren't reading his posts after all. Here I thought you were.

[Dat Nick]

No, I just didn't read that portion of it. Or I just read it and forgot about it. Is me missing one thing really an automatic U DIDNT READ DA POST!!!!oneone?! It's not like I accused you of not reading mine just because I thought you were talking to me.

Edited June 6, 2010 by SaltyWongIsSalty

[Shadow Mir]

Wasn't you, dude. Kirsche. Which one of you was supporting Lyre? The comment I was disputing was that Lyre transforms faster, something clearly in her favour if true.

Hmm, maybe you aren't reading his posts after all. Here I thought you were.

It was Kirsche that was supporting Lyre.

[RNG Princess]

Again. Who. Cares? Being 30th on the deployment list every chapter for 40 chapters is still awful. Availability is no justification for Lyre's fail.

Because they DON'T do it much better. Other healers don't blow at combat like Oliver does. That's the only reason he's lower.

If you have a high magic stat, and access to higher level staves, you can heal just fine. If your stats blow and you're a fighter, all you can do is dumbass shoving. Untrained Elincia>Oliver? Well, untrained Rolf>Lyre. I WISH I was joking about that.

Yeah? And untrained Boyd can shove, actually DAMAGE things, actually take hits, never untransform, has 1-2 range, has slayers, etc....You're not telling anybody anything they don't already know by saying Elincia>Oliver.

Because "failing" at healing just works a fuck of a lot better than failing at combat.

They do it fine and they can also survive and fight better

Lyre is shoving not fighting ;)

anyways neither is good for what they do..

you can find a better shover named Mordecai because he has base smite (unless you take it off him).

you can also find a better healer named Micaiah, an extra healer is needed only for backup and using hammerne on fortify wouldn't be a bad idea.

but that extra healer is assumed to fight and survive as well and most of them are doing it better than Oliver (idk about Laura and Rhys or a trained sage not named Bastian).

neither Oliver or Lyre should be used its just that Oliver brings more to the table than Lyre does IMO.

Free exp or silence staff + nosferatu is better than shoving.

Edited June 6, 2010 by Queen_Elincia

[Narga_Rocks]

No, I just didn't read that portion of it. Or I just read it and forgot about it. Is me missing one thing really an automatic U DIDNT READ DA POST!!!!oneone?! It's not like I accused you of not reading mine just because I thought you were talking to me.

It's not that I was accusing you of not reading it at all. I'm sorry, I should have said "Maybe you aren't fully reading his posts after all". That was my fault. Even so, I wouldn't have said that if not for Kirsche saying (like, 5 times) that people weren't reading his posts and others responding "yes we are". If not for those exchanges, I wouldn't have said that.

Anyway, if you are curious which post it was:

Kyza doesn't transform as well as Lyre does.

Which I can only read as "Lyre transforms faster", because I can't come up with any other interpretation that makes sense in context. I mean, it's not exactly likely to be that he's talking about the quality of their respective transformation animations.

It was Kirsche that was supporting Lyre.

I'm fully aware of that. To be honest, I thought I said as much in the post you quoted. I guess I was unclear.

Edited June 6, 2010 by Narga_Rocks

[Dat Nick]

They do it fine and they can also survive and fight better

You're starting to irritate me. When did I say Oliver>Any healer? Protip: I didn't. I simply said other healers don't >>>>>>>> Oliver the way some mid tier dude like Boyd >>>>>>>>>>>>combat fails.

Furthermore, how is survival an issue for Oliver when he's 10 spaces away from the rest of the army? Hell, even further than that with Fortify?

Lyre is shoving not fighting

Wow, why didn't anybody ever think of this excuse before?! Now her fail is completely justified!

anyways neither is good for what they do..

Except Oliver is much better at what he does than Lyre is at what she does.

Why? Because Oliver is less outclassed. Why? Because being outclassed at healing sucks less than being outclassed at fighting. MUCH less.

but that extra healer is assumed to fight and survive as well and most of them are doing it better than Oliver (idk about Laura and Rhys or a trained sage not named Bastian).

I FUCKING KNOW, OKAY! I never ONCE said that Oliver>Any other healer!

Edited June 6, 2010 by SaltyWongIsSalty

[RNG Princess]

You're starting to irritate me. When did I say Oliver>Any healer? Protip: I didn't. I simply said other healers don't >>>>>>>> Oliver the way some mid tier dude like Boyd >>>>>>>>>>>>combat fails.

Furthermore, how is survival an issue for Oliver when he's 10 spaces away from the rest of the army? Hell, even further than that with Fortify?

Wow, why didn't anybody ever think of this excuse before?! Now her fail is completely justified!

Except Oliver is much better at what he does than Lyre is at what she does.

Why? Because Oliver is less outclassed. Why? Because being outclassed at healing sucks less than being outclassed at fighting. MUCH less.

I FUCKING KNOW, OKAY! I never ONCE said that Oliver>Any other healer!

Oh I totally understand your point now!

What you're telling me is if I bring Oliver to endgame that he won't hurt me as much as using Lyre for one chapter and have her act as shove-bot right?

there is only one way to have Lyre act as shovebot by deploying her

there are two ways for Oliver to start healing, either by deploying him or leave one enemy alive in 4-4 after recruiting him and have him heal one of your characters.

theres a difference in using Lyre for one chapter and using him for four chapters.

I still agree Oliver > Lyre though.

they both suck and both hurt your team almost equally if deployed.

Edited June 6, 2010 by Queen_Elincia

[-Cynthia-]

Oliver isn't necessarily worse than any other healer either. Sure, he's worse than Elincia, but he's much better than an untrained or even moderately trained Rhys/Mist, and beats the Sages at actual healing due to staff rank.

[RNG Princess]

Oliver isn't necessarily worse than any other healer either. Sure, he's worse than Elincia, but he's much better than an untrained or even moderately trained Rhys/Mist, and beats the Sages at actual healing due to staff rank.

Well he can use fortify if you give him an ams scroll for 4-E-1 and 2 while Micaiah uses Thani on the generals, A rank staves and below can be used by sages. A trained Mist or Elincia can do it much better because of canto and easier to accomodate for a refresh.

Edited June 6, 2010 by Queen_Elincia

[Dat Nick]

they both suck and both hurt your team almost equally if deployed.

Yeah, if you're insane enough to think Healing is on the same level of useless of sucking at everything.

A trained Mist or Elincia can do it much better because of canto and easier to accomodate for a refresh.

Christ, will you stop acting like we don't know this?

[-Cynthia-]

If we put Oliver in, it frees up Elincia/Micaiah to attack. Even if we don't care about that, there are probably situations in which we want 2 staff users (status on 4-E(1), accurate hard hitting dragons on 4-E(3)). Not saying Oliver is optimal deployment or anything (neither is Renning), but he does something.

[RNG Princess]

Yeah, if you're insane enough to think Healing is on the same level of useless of sucking at everything.

Christ, will you stop acting like we don't know this?

no its not thats why I think Oliver > Lyre + free staff :3

I'm just voicing that if he's healing he's hurting your team for longer than one chapter, as argued by kirsche that all she needs is one chapter to play shove-bot to > Oliver.

If we put Oliver in, it frees up Elincia/Micaiah to attack. Even if we don't care about that, there are probably situations in which we want 2 staff users (status on 4-E(1), accurate hard hitting dragons on 4-E(3)). Not saying Oliver is optimal deployment or anything (neither is Renning), but he does something.

The heron can help out Edited June 6, 2010 by Queen_Elincia

[Maou]

If we put Oliver in, it frees up Elincia/Micaiah to attack. Even if we don't care about that, there are probably situations in which we want 2 staff users (status on 4-E(1), accurate hard hitting dragons on 4-E(3)). Not saying Oliver is optimal deployment or anything (neither is Renning), but he does something.

Whether Oliver could actually contribute anything remotely useful depends. If we are lowturning endgame then extra healers besides micaiah are superfluous. And we sure as hell would not bring him to help out with combat.

Some examples from interceptor's run: You can take out the two sleep staffers in 4-E 1 on the first turn (thus ending any danger that you might face), one turning the next three chapters with a proper strategy, and maybe one use of a fortify staff before destroying ashera.

I for one am not really interested with this whole shoving vs. Oliver debate, but Oliver really has no chance at doing anything to help us beat endgame.

[Dat Nick]

as argued by kirsche that all she needs is one chapter to play shove-bot to > Oliver.

What you keep not getting is that it's worse if i field Lyre for one chapter to shove bot, because shoving is never useful whereas healing is. Seriously, why the holy hell would I kick Kyza out of the army who's better overall just so Lyre can act retarded?

[Fenrir]

i dont get why anyone would shove with lyre, all she can do is shove some people(not all) she cannot shove a tiger if your using one and she cannot shove ranulf or ike or gatrie.

if theres a situation they would need to be attacked lyre might(probably would) die and then when you need the shove to reach that boss who has a bow on 3-10 who mia kills with steel sword now lyre is dead and so is mia(she kills him he kills her...) just another reason kyza, mordy or the hawks are better...

[Anouleth]

I think the gap between Lyre and your 14th string combat unit / shover in 3-10 is not nearly as great as say, the gap between Oliver and your 10th string in Endgame. I can live quite happily with kicking out Kyza for a slightly shittier character, but kicking out Marcia or someone for Oliver? Oliver probably won't even get into 4-E-4 and 4-E-5!

[Fenrir]

my point is, lyre brings absolutely nothing to the table while oliver can at least heal, lyre will not help your turn count, for example. if you could use dheg for the same time as kurth and neither had a tide, would you ever even think about using kurth? obviously not. its similar between lyre and kyza. unless your gonna use 5 units to shove lyre belongs on the bench. i find oliver more useful for 1 turn of 4-4/endgame because he can at least do something lyre is your 5th string shover. oliver your possibly 3rd string healer, and healing is better than shoving so oliver > lyre. of course oliver is 3rd string because no one has been trained, so he's behind elincia and miciah( if you used miciah like none he could be better if she's 3/2/1 for example) he's ahead of, rhys, laura, mist, and bastian? im unsure about bastian but at least he is better than the others given they're untrained.

[WeaponsofMassConstruction]

To be honest, I don't think deploying Lyre or Oliver or whoever isn't "optimal" hurts your turn count at all (if you're looking at it that way) as a smaller team has many advantages over larger teams.

[Rewjeo]

Yes, but then if you get unlucky with the RNG, Oliver can help and heal that unlucky person. Lyre can... shove them?