OMG it's a tier list

[Narga_Rocks]

No, I meant the effect that his boyish good looks have on the Bandits.

That's not quantifiable, so I can see why we wouldn't want to include it in tier list discussions. Good call on that one.

[Interceptor]

That's not quantifiable, so I can see why we wouldn't want to include it in tier list discussions. Good call on that one.

Well, I am pretty amazing, so it's no problem.

Incidentally though, if I were actually talking about the turns that Eddie saved in 1-P (turns saved vs. a fairyland playthrough where Eddie didn't exist), I'd probably point out that taking those turns into account will distort Eddie's ranking pretty far away from where his actual combat prowess relative to his peers would otherwise put him.

[dondon151]

The point, nestled too deeply in a bed of subtlety, was that Sothe himself resembles an extraordinary circumstance. This goes back to, say, Eddie's performance in 1-P.

So if Sothe resembles an extraordinary circumstance, then what stops Mia from resembling an extraordinary circumstance? Or any other character in the game, for that matter? Do we draw a line on a chalkboard with eraser in hand and move it about as we please?

Then let me respond to the philosophical argument that led to your conclusion, after quoting it below:

I weigh contribution by turns saved by the character in question. You, obviously, weigh it differently.

Honestly. I thought you could figure these things out.

Anouleth was making reference to 3-6, not to 1-4. If you're going to agree with me, at least have the good manners to not seem as if you're in opposition to my point.

As far as I could tell, you weren't disagreeing with Anouleth, either. I mean, you just kind of assumed that he was using a metric that involved taking partial credit for someone else using Beastfoe, when all he said was that Beastfoe was the most important skill in 3-6. I just proposed a metric that we could use to measure Sothe's Beastfoe contribution.

Edited December 21, 2010 by dondon151

[Narga_Rocks]

So if Sothe resembles an extraordinary circumstance, then what stops Mia from resembling an extraordinary circumstance? Or any other character in the game, for that matter? Do we draw a line on a chalkboard with eraser in hand and move it about as we please?

I weigh contribution by turns saved by the character in question. You, obviously, weigh it differently.

Honestly. I thought you could figure these things out.

Then I'm patiently waiting for you to argue Edward up a lot on the strength of Edward's 1-P performance.

You can't reliably beat 1-9 without BK, though, so I won't ask for you to argue him up (either need to abuse Micaiah's stat gains along the way or get a massive string of lucky RNs for her to survive 1-9). Neph and Brom likely each save quite a few turns compared to them going it alone in 2-1, so maybe they too need to be argued up.

Seriously, though, we do draw a line. We have to. I'm not sure it's on a chalkboard, though. A problem is that everyone went and drew their own line somewhere. I don't think most people have moved their own line at all in the last while, so the whole eraser + moving the line thing I'd have to disagree with.

Does Sothe even manage to beat the 14 turns or so that Edward saves you? I'm not even certain you can do 1-P with just Micaiah and Leonardo in 20 turns, though. I think someone actually did it once just for fun. Maybe it was Paperblade. Anyway, if you simply did not let Edward enter combat ever (or trade other units' weapons or support or do anything at all that makes a difference between him existing and not), and compared that to not letting Sothe enter combat (or do any of those other things that I mentioned with Ed) how close would the turncount difference be do you think?

Edited December 21, 2010 by Narga_Rocks

[dondon151]

Then I'm patiently waiting for you to argue Edward up a lot on the strength of Edward's 1-P performance.

Like I said, exceptions exist for a reason. There's also 2-1. And chapter 11 in FE7.

[Narga_Rocks]

And Interceptor apparently judges what makes something an exception in a different way than you. It's not necessarily that he doesn't judge contributions by turns saved at all.

Like I said, everyone places their line in a different spot. Also, I did mention Neph and Brom in 2-1, so you didn't need to tell me that.

Yeah, I wasn't bothering to think up other units in other games, though Hector in chapter 11 probably falls under the BK in 1-9 category. Can Matthew even damage that boss? As for Matt's tier position: surely Hector can beat the chapter easily enough without Matthew, so Matt will only save a couple of turns for knocking down a wall on turn 1 right? And I'll call you Shirley as much as I want to

[Soren37]

Out of curiosity, whatever happened to the Mist and Rhys thing? I seem to remember that we had a discussion where we would have it go Mist(T) > Mist=Rhys(N/T).

[nflchamp]

Not for nothing, but I'd like to point out the fact that Eddie doesn't 6-turn 1-P on his own. It'd take him little longer if he had to do everything on his own.

[Narga_Rocks]

Not for nothing, but I'd like to point out the fact that Eddie doesn't 6-turn 1-P on his own. It'd take him little longer if he had to do everything on his own.

That's not relevant. It's the difference between "having Eddie" and "not having Eddie" that is relevant here. Not "no Eddie" vs. "only Eddie".

Similarly, we don't expect Sothe to solo 1-2 to 1-E just to get his credit for reducing turncounts there, nor do we judge "no Sothe" vs. "just Sothe" to determine what credit he gets.

[nflchamp]

That's not relevant. It's the difference between "having Eddie" and "not having Eddie" that is relevant here. Not "no Eddie" vs. "only Eddie".

Similarly, we don't expect Sothe to solo 1-2 to 1-E just to get his credit for reducing turncounts there, nor do we judge "no Sothe" vs. "just Sothe" to determine what credit he gets.

I don't see a difference. It's "only Eddie" vs. "only Micaiah and Leonardo".

[Radiant Dragon]

I don't see a difference. It's "only Eddie" vs. "only Micaiah and Leonardo".

It's "only Micaiah and Leonardo" vs. "Micaiah, Leonardo and Edward", I believe. Unless I lost track of the conversation somewhere...

[Colonel M]

I'm losing track of it by just reading it.

[nflchamp]

It's "only Micaiah and Leonardo" vs. "Micaiah, Leonardo and Edward", I believe. Unless I lost track of the conversation somewhere...

Yes, but why is "only Micaiah and Leonardo" considered but not "only Eddie"?

[-Cynthia-]

To measure Edward's contribution to the team, it makes more sense to examine how the team performs with or without him than to have Edward solo a chapter (how fast Edward can solo 1-P does not measure his performance when he is part of the team).

Edited December 21, 2010 by -Cynthia-

[Radiant Dragon]

Yes, but why is "only Micaiah and Leonardo" considered but not "only Eddie"?

The issue is how many turns Edward saves in 1-P, and how long the chapter would take without him.

Edit: Ninja'd... She explained it better than I did anyway.

Edited December 21, 2010 by Radiant Dragon

[nflchamp]

To measure Edward's contribution to the team, it makes more sense to examine how the team performs with or without him than to have Edward solo a chapter (how fast Edward can solo 1-P does not measure his performance when he is part of the team).

But it would help measure what actual difference Eddie makes.

Let me put it this way. Eddie needs help from the team. He, by himself, does not save 15 or whatever number of turns. He without solely Micaiah probably takes longer than with her. The full 15 turn reduction is thanks to both Eddie and Micaiah (and probably Leo, too).

[Zkirsche]

He, by himself, does not save 15 or whatever number of turns.

Technically speaking, he saves an infinite number of turns from the +infinity turns it takes us with 0 units ;).

In all seriousness, though, just think of it like a math problem.

Micaiah + Eddie = 6 turns.

Micaiah = 20 turns.

Eddie = -14 turns.

[dondon151]

And Interceptor apparently judges what makes something an exception in a different way than you. It's not necessarily that he doesn't judge contributions by turns saved at all.

I know that. And it wasn't what I was implying. Interceptor probably weighs chapters differently.

Yeah, I wasn't bothering to think up other units in other games, though Hector in chapter 11 probably falls under the BK in 1-9 category. Can Matthew even damage that boss? As for Matt's tier position: surely Hector can beat the chapter easily enough without Matthew, so Matt will only save a couple of turns for knocking down a wall on turn 1 right?

Matthew needs 11 str to do 1 x2 HP damage to the boss. So yes, it's possible if he has the LM Energy Ring and is around 19/0. Hector would get credit for that many turns.

[Junkhead]

Matthew not only knocks a wall. He helps Hector finish a total of two kills. Two of the kills being Archers that Hector 2HKO's with Wolf Beil. (This of course being, the 8 turn route, which affords Hector more Exp).

Edited December 21, 2010 by Soul

[Interceptor]

Once you folks all figure out why Eddie saves ~15 turns over a candy-land playthrough where Eddie doesn't exist, let me know. Then, we can discuss why tiering Eddie like that is a really stupid idea.

So if Sothe resembles an extraordinary circumstance, then what stops Mia from resembling an extraordinary circumstance? Or any other character in the game, for that matter? Do we draw a line on a chalkboard with eraser in hand and move it about as we please?

Reasonable people can agree on boundaries. This does not result in moving goal posts, magic chalkboards, the End of Days, madness, or cats and dogs living together.

I weigh contribution by turns saved by the character in question. You, obviously, weigh it differently.

Honestly. I thought you could figure these things out.

And here we go again, the classic "get involved in a land war in Asia" dondon blunder, where -- usually to his disadvantage -- he assumes that I'm some kind of drooling idiot.

I'm perfectly aware of what your tiering inclinations are. The point was not that you were wearing an unreadable poker face, it was that your post was completely devoid of anything resembling something that someone might recognize as an argument, even by accident. This thread is, amongst other things, a battle of ideas. It's more difficult to paint your ideas as detrimental to the goals of the tier list, when you just assert your conclusion without any supporting argument.

As far as I could tell, you weren't disagreeing with Anouleth, either. I mean, you just kind of assumed that he was using a metric that involved taking partial credit for someone else using Beastfoe, when all he said was that Beastfoe was the most important skill in 3-6. I just proposed a metric that we could use to measure Sothe's Beastfoe contribution.

That's not "all he said", unless you think that "[sothe] is also responsible for getting us Beastfoe" was inserted into his post by malicious Internet Gnomes. He was responding, directly, to a post about Sothe's Part 3, and his 3-6 in particular. The leap from one thing to another, is less of a jump and more like stepping over a crack in the sidewalk.

Matthew needs 11 str to do 1 x2 HP damage to the boss. So yes, it's possible if he has the LM Energy Ring and is around 19/0. Hector would get credit for that many turns.

Just in case you're ever curious as to the reason that someone ignores one of your arguments in tier list, this is probably why.

[Narga_Rocks]

Matthew needs 11 str to do 1 x2 HP damage to the boss. So yes, it's possible if he has the LM Energy Ring and is around 19/0. Hector would get credit for that many turns.

Is he getting to 19/0 in Lyn mode? Otherwise he's not reaching that in chapter 11 since his weapon will break. Beyond that, what's the chance of Matthew not getting killed before doing this? I've already said that anything that is an extremely low probability of working shouldn't really count as being possible, so you can't say "Matthew can (very rarely) solo chapter 11 in 40 turns and Hector gets credit for the reduction". It's not reasonable because Matthew will almost never actually succeed. Okay, he's level 19 so with more speed and luck perhaps instead of 1 in a billion it's 1 in 10000+. Not enough to be considered feasible.

[Albino]

Is he getting to 19/0 in Lyn mode? Otherwise he's not reaching that in chapter 11 since his weapon will break. Beyond that, what's the chance of Matthew not getting killed before doing this? I've already said that anything that is an extremely low probability of working shouldn't really count as being possible, so you can't say "Matthew can (very rarely) solo chapter 11 in 40 turns and Hector gets credit for the reduction". It's not reasonable because Matthew will almost never actually succeed. Okay, he's level 19 so with more speed and luck perhaps instead of 1 in a billion it's 1 in 10000+. Not enough to be considered feasible.

There was an argument on GFAQS last time the HHM S-rank tier list was actually debated about this. Basically, we decided that it was impossible for Matt to be at a high enough level to damage Wire starting ch11 since LHM was assumed to be S-ranked (not sure if it still is, actually, I think that assumption was being debated in that topic too). It was the implication (Hector is the only one who can kill Wire, which is required for the completion of HHM, and therefore should go into his own tier) that was being debated. The whole argument was inconclusive (i.e. there was only one or two people advocating the change, with everyone else crying disguised seize argument) but it was agreed upon that there was no way that Matt would be killing Wire.

Edited December 23, 2010 by Albino

[dondon151]

You're obviously not putting enough effort into Matthew.

I mean, it's not a seize argument in its strictest sense. Hector saves only a finite number of turns, since Matthew can definitely get to 19/0 in LM without any restrictive assumptions. But we're still content to draw the line there and not give Hector the credit that he actually deserves for making the progression of the game possible in 7 turns instead of however many extra LM turns.

[Interceptor]

Giving Hector credit for the number of turns he "saves" over soloing super-Matt is something so far divorced from 1) the point of tier lists, and 2) any realistic playthrough, that it breaks the Myopia Meter. On a nearsightedness scale from 1 to 10, it is "Mr. Magoo". Not only is it so ludicrous as to make the normally-pointless pastime of tiering seem a noble endeavor by comparison, but it actively undermines the ability to accurately rank units in the first place, earning the dubious honor of being simultaneously absurd and destructive.

[Albino]

You're obviously not putting enough effort into Matthew.

I mean, it's not a seize argument in its strictest sense. Hector saves only a finite number of turns, since Matthew can definitely get to 19/0 in LM without any restrictive assumptions. But we're still content to draw the line there and not give Hector the credit that he actually deserves for making the progression of the game possible in 7 turns instead of however many extra LM turns.

Well, so long as the LHM S-ranked assumption is kept in place, I'd be willing to call it a seize argument, albeit one based on a (mostly) arbitrary assumption. I don't even think the term "seize argument" was ever used, but that was essentially what everyone was saying, to the point where someone simply satirized the argument by making a tier list that said:

Required to S-rank HHM:

Hector

Not Required to S-rank HHM:

Everyone else

IMO, Hector should take credit for however many turns he saves in ch11 excluding the ones he saves by killing Wire (maybe even less), and whatever contribution he makes to the exp rank. Giving Hector credit for the Tactics contribution that he makes by killing Wire gives us something similar to what Interceptor just said.

Edited December 23, 2010 by Albino