OMG it's a tier list

[dondon151]

Eddie is not trash and he is being deployed after 1-5

You deploy him in 1-6 to shove people and then drop him for the rest of part 1. You even said that in 2 of the remaining part 1 chapters he's a shovebot for Sothe.

Sothe is also "trash" as a long term unit and look where he is at.

He's pretty good up until 3-13. That's "long term" in my book. At least longer than 1-4.

I haven't actually looked at the tier list for awhile and Eddie could probably go up a whole tier with Aran going down 2 tiers. But Eddie isn't actually good or anything.

[RNG Princess]

You deploy him in 1-6 to shove people and then drop him for the rest of part 1. You even said that in 2 of the remaining part 1 chapters he's a shovebot for Sothe.

He's pretty good up until 3-13. That's "long term" in my book. At least longer than 1-4.

I haven't actually looked at the tier list for awhile and Eddie could probably go up a whole tier with Aran going down 2 tiers. But Eddie isn't actually good or anything.

1-E yes but being shove bot = not dropped :( and i said meatshield & chipper on 1-8 ^_^

@italic-bolded statement keep in mind that some of the middle/upper middle characters arent good for "long term" more than 3 chapters. I think calling him trash is inappropriate ^_^ becuase he's still useful but I know what you're meaning; him being mediocre . Don't forget Eddie can also be useful for minimal tasks in part 3 as well.

@ Bold/underlined he is good for a few chapters which is a lot longer than Aran and if trained with equal treatment as Aran he'd still be better than Aran and be solid himself.

Also on my Aran vs Eddie argument, Aran's speed caps apparantly get on the way of endgame performance

Edited March 20, 2011 by Queen_Elincia

[Vicious Sal]

The problem is, Even though edward is fast, he can't be thrown into the fray and be expected to survive. Ridiculously high enemy hit rates & no Weapon Triangle weigh him down. Also, Biorythm tends to screw up sometimes. Those are all factors Aran doesn't fret about. Mages are few and far between, and be fair, aran isn't going for radmin in 1-8. After some levels some enemies will probably start double tinking on him, big deal? The worst case wuld be that he would be surrounded, edward would be surrounded and die. He caps Def on average, but his growth doesn't save his ass in part one.

[RNG Princess]

The problem is, Even though edward is fast, he can't be thrown into the fray and be expected to survive. Ridiculously high enemy hit rates & no Weapon Triangle weigh him down. Also, Biorythm tends to screw up sometimes. Those are all factors Aran doesn't fret about. Mages are few and far between, and be fair, aran isn't going for radmin in 1-8. After some levels some enemies will probably start double tinking on him, big deal? The worst case wuld be that he would be surrounded, edward would be surrounded and die. He caps Def on average, but his growth doesn't save his ass in part one.

That is a point against Eddie but its not much of a pro if Aran isn't doing anything good out of it. He's only tinked by cats in 3-6. Tinking does not match Aran throughout Part 1. Here is my observation ^_^ about Part 1 chapter layouts.

Edward has defense issues on 1-P and 1-1, on 1-2 its more beneficial to get him on wrath mode.

1-3 Sothe is clearing the way and Kurth is blocking the other half of the map; Eddie like Aran is just eating up left over kills/cexp.

1-4 Aran and Eddie have similar durability here except against Tigers, Aran is doubled by cats taking 14hp in total, Eddie likely doubles tigers Aran does not.

1-5 Defense shouldn't even matter its about taking out nearby enemies and attacking from ledges after that, Eddie doubles Aran doesn't.

1-6-1 routing and Aran can probably not even double enemy pegs.

1-6-2 take out nearby enemies, its not much of a stand and survive enemies except on the bridge which neither Aran or Eddie should take (enemies+ Canto)

1-7 Aran would probably have higher chances of survival against enemies near the gate but if he's going where Jill/Volug are going he better watch out for the archer and mages who have doubling on him.

1-8 another rout chapter and Eddie can probably use brave sword now even if he can't he has about the same durability/attack as Aran.

1-E if either is deployed at least Eddie can be left on ledges to double and kill enemy reinforcement mages and gain more CEXP than Aran.

Even in Part 3 Eddie > Aran (+8 luck sword)and by Endgame Eddie will still be > Aran due to better speed cap.

iirc his prf sword makes him dodge more if he's got Nolan supports he's dodging much more. If the only reason why Aran is two tiers above Eddie is durability then he definitely needs to be closer to Eddie because Aran lacks an important stat which is speed of course ^^', Eddie having less durability is a good argument but Eddie probably has better combat than Aran, and he has more availability, better potential, and better resources than Aran too.

Also even if he doesn't deserve it Eddie has access to a dracoshield which can help his defense but Aran has no access to a speedwing until 1-E.

I hope i'm being fair here with the argument ^^'

Edited March 20, 2011 by Queen_Elincia

[Anouleth]

I haven't actually looked at the tier list for awhile and Eddie could probably go up a whole tier with Aran going down 2 tiers. But Eddie isn't actually good or anything.

Maybe I described him too positively. I don't know where you'd put him, but I'd put Edward above Tauroneo and Aran below Geoffrey. For now, anyway.

Eddie is not trash and he is being deployed after 1-5

1-6 is a rout he can help against a mage/peg/archer

1-6-2 nearby enemies theres not too many fighters available

1-7 Shove bot Sothe

1-8 Zihark is shove-botting Sothe, its a rout map and there are 2 wind mages and a fighter/bandit there has to be someone there to at least shield Micaiah. Volug can only reach one mage, i'm pretty sure Eddie (and Nolan) is used.

and Eddie >>> Aran, his prf weapon + better speed and growths. Aran is not even useful why is he higher than Eddie?

Sothe is also "trash" as a long term unit and look where he is at.

Edward in late Part 1 is not really particularly useful. He's useful in 1-6-1 and 1-8, because those are routs and you want all the offense you can get, but he's otherwise hampered by meh defensive stats and mediocre movement. There's no reason you couldn't deploy him so he can gain experience for Part 3, but beyond self-improvement, he has nothing except 1-8. (it should be noted, though, that even Nolan and Aran are in the exact same position - if anything, it's worse for them because he is better offensively as well)

I think bits and pieces of this tier list need to be fixed or explained ^^'

If anything speed is just as important as defense and str. You can't just forge speed or support someone to gain speed, it grows on its own.

Exp gain is slower and stricter in Hard Mode, BEXP is limited for the DB especially. If Eddie with 12 base speed is having issues doubling enemies, Aran is going to have a harder time.

Idk what level Aran is expected to be in Part 3 but a 20/1 Aran is going to be doubled always by cats in 3-6 and he will have around the same speed as tigers. Ok so he beats Eddie's 20/1 str and has better defense but Eddie is not handicapped by his speed since he's at least not being doubled and will soon double cats.

While I appreciate you trying to make Edward look better, ignoring obvious truths to do it is not the right way to go about it. Even if Aran gets doubled by Cats, he is still getting 4HKOed by the strongest Cats to Edward's 2HKOed, and more levels will turn that quickly into 5HKOed, then 6HKOed, then 7HKOed at level 20/5. He also avoids getting 2HKOed by Tigers after those levels, something Edward doesn't achieve until 3rd tier.

Nor is Edward soon going to be doubling Cats. He is only ~5 points of speed above Aran, after all. He needs to gain 5 points of speed in order to double every cat, something that he needs to gain 8 levels to do. That isn't likely at all. I don't think it's really a big deal since Edward is probably taking Wrath/Resolve/Cancel, so Cats aren't very likely to survive a round of combat against him.

If potential is used to boost a character like Aran why isn't it used for all CRKs or Sigrun? With some babysitting they get good results as well.

I can't even imagine the amount of babysitting you'd need to turn scrubs like Sigrun or Kieran into good Part 4 units. Certainly a lot more than Aran.

Also Rolf, how is he superior to Leonardo and Ilyana? Rolfy is dealing helpful chipping but Past 3-1 he's lackluster. He's gaining experience only on player phase unless he's wielding a crossbow which is causing him to deal lower damage. Raising him would be a lot slower than raising anyone else who can at least face an enemy. I think he should drop below Ilyana and Leonardo. A noob Leonardo at least thanks to his prf bow becomes decent in 3-6 dealing helpful damage and saving your team on 3-13 by killing those hawks with ballistae adding up with his Part 1 contributions i'm sure in a max efficient PoV Leo > Rolf.

I don't quite want to throw this tier list to the maximally efficent dogs yet.

Oliver should be at the bottom of bottom tier He offers nothing necessary, fortify is taken by Micaiah and could be performed by anyone else with S rank. If he is deployed you have another unit who is doubled by everyone, has no real combat, and can perform another fortify which should be done at the end of all fighters moving/attacking that is un-necessary. Ok so he can deal one physic or silence an enemy in 4-5 but that would be situational. All the other bottom tiered characters at least do something and have some potential.

Agreed. Except for the 'potential' bit. The bottom tier characters have no potential worth talking about in the context of an efficient playthrough.

My last argument is that Pelleas belongs in bottom tier. The use for Pelleas is situational and has no potential for endgame. He costs a forge for a job that could be done (this is just what I think I've yet to prove it) by other scrubs like Lucia. killing 2 enemy reinforcements, his next chapter is more luck based only if Izuka reinforces a dragon and somehow he is considered superior to Meg and Astrid when their usage is not situational but actually beneficial; he belongs in the same tier as them.

I agree as well, actually.

[RNG Princess]

But Edward has really good avoid with a Nolan support and his prf blade, he also seems to be landing criticals often surely thats competing with Aran's high def and lack of combat ^^' but yes I should really practice on using facts instead of over-hyping ^^'

[Shadow Mir]

But Edward has really good avoid with a Nolan support and his prf blade, he also seems to be landing criticals often surely thats competing with Aran's high def and lack of combat ^^' but yes I should really practice on using facts instead of over-hyping ^^'

Edward's offense may turn out to be his demise in part 3 - if it happened to Zihark, I see no reason why Edward's not as vulnerable to overdoing it until an enemy ends him.

My last argument is that Pelleas belongs in bottom tier. The use for Pelleas is situational and has no potential for endgame. He costs a forge for a job that could be done (this is just what I think I've yet to prove it) by other scrubs like Lucia. killing 2 enemy reinforcements, his next chapter is more luck based only if Izuka reinforces a dragon and somehow he is considered superior to Meg and Astrid when their usage is not situational but actually beneficial; he belongs in the same tier as them.

Agreed.

Edited March 20, 2011 by Metal King Slime

[Narga_Rocks]

Edward's offense may turn out to be his demise in part 3 - if it happened to Zihark, I see no reason why Edward's not as vulnerable to overdoing it until an enemy ends him.

He's likely even more vulnerable, actually. At least, if you leave wrath on him. Adept compared to nothing would mean Zihark is more vulnerable, but then you can remove Adept from Zihark and Ed will be more vulnerable due to worse stats. In any case, it basically relegates these guys to killing scraps as well as being positioned to be in range of only 1 enemy on enemy phase. They don't get to do much in 3-6 unless you want to constantly risk death on the hope they'll dodge or not blitz an enemy.

[Shadow Mir]

He's likely even more vulnerable, actually. At least, if you leave wrath on him. Adept compared to nothing would mean Zihark is more vulnerable, but then you can remove Adept from Zihark and Ed will be more vulnerable due to worse stats. In any case, it basically relegates these guys to killing scraps as well as being positioned to be in range of only 1 enemy on enemy phase. They don't get to do much in 3-6 unless you want to constantly risk death on the hope they'll dodge or not blitz an enemy.

Yeah... 3-6 and 3-13 are very unfriendly to swordmasters.

[Anouleth]

He's likely even more vulnerable, actually. At least, if you leave wrath on him. Adept compared to nothing would mean Zihark is more vulnerable, but then you can remove Adept from Zihark and Ed will be more vulnerable due to worse stats. In any case, it basically relegates these guys to killing scraps as well as being positioned to be in range of only 1 enemy on enemy phase. They don't get to do much in 3-6 unless you want to constantly risk death on the hope they'll dodge or not blitz an enemy.

In my experience, Edward wasn't so frail in 3-6. Maybe I was just lucky. I remember that I only really exposed him when he was at good biorhythm.

One advantage of Edward over Zihark is that Wrath is a lot more reliable for offense than Adept. If Edward has Resolve and Cancel and is below 30% HP, he can very reliably kill enemies since he has like 75 crit on them, even on Player Phase. Killing a scrap and one enemy on player phase doesn't sound that great, but two enemies per turn is fine. Even Nolan can only manage three, Volug is two or three since half the time he needs to grass.

Eh, I'm really not the best person to talk about 3-6, since I usually half-ass it.

[Caliban of Sycorax]

In my experience, Edward wasn't so frail in 3-6. Maybe I was just lucky. I remember that I only really exposed him when he was at good biorhythm.

One advantage of Edward over Zihark is that Wrath is a lot more reliable for offense than Adept. If Edward has Resolve and Cancel and is below 30% HP, he can very reliably kill enemies since he has like 75 crit on them, even on Player Phase. Killing a scrap and one enemy on player phase doesn't sound that great, but two enemies per turn is fine. Even Nolan can only manage three, Volug is two or three since half the time he needs to grass.

Eh, I'm really not the best person to talk about 3-6, since I usually half-ass it.

Opening Eddie to Wrath means he crits and kills more enemies, giving him more chances to be attacked and be hit...and killed. Wrath works better on higher defense units or units who won't get raped by the elimination of the Weapon Triangle.

[RNG Princess]

In my exp tigers had 56ish hit on him iirc, but he had supports with Nolan and was wielding his prf.

[Vicious Sal]

So he gets into wrath range, kills enemy, and the next enemy is waiting, eventually, he isn't going to dodge. Zihark has Earth x Earth Possibility, twice as much bonus avo as Edward. =/

[Shadow Mir]

In my exp tigers had 56ish hit on him iirc, but he had supports with Nolan and was wielding his prf.

Even so, the only thing I see swordmasters as good for in 3-6 is wind edge support since they'll just get decimated if you try to hold the one with one of them as a defender (or they may bring it on themselves with their crits >_>)

Edited March 22, 2011 by Metal King Slime

[Anouleth]

Opening Eddie to Wrath means he crits and kills more enemies, giving him more chances to be attacked and be hit...and killed.

Maybe in an alternate universe where there's a Tiger on every single square of the map. As it is, in reality, there are not so many Laguz that the scenario you describe will happen unless you are really stupid and let the enemies pile up.

Wrath works better on higher defense units or units who won't get raped by the elimination of the Weapon Triangle.

Edward isn't impacted at all in Part 3 by the elimination of the Weapon Triangle, because the laguz do not use weapons.

Even so, the only thing I see swordmasters as good for in 3-6 is wind edge support since they'll just get decimated if you try to hold the one with one of them as a defender (or they may bring it on themselves with their crits >_>)

Since Laguz have extremely low luck (6 or 7), virtually any character can accidentally crit them on a counter-attack.

[Shadow Mir]

Since Laguz have extremely low luck (6 or 7), virtually any character can accidentally crit them on a counter-attack.

True, but swordmasters are especially guilty of this.

[Narga_Rocks]

So he gets into wrath range, kills enemy, and the next enemy is waiting, eventually, he isn't going to dodge. Zihark has Earth x Earth Possibility, twice as much bonus avo as Edward. =/

Not likely. If you have Zihark with an A support with ANYBODY in 3-6, trust me when I say that you are doing it wrong. Edward can easily have A Nolan by 1-E if you are consistently using him, and he'll probably have it sooner than that anyway. Depending on your speed, Zihark is lucky just to get a B support by 3-6 with Nolan or Volug. Good luck reaching A without going rather slowly.

You are comparing +23 avo to +30 at best, and oh wait, Edward has Caladbolg for +8 more. If they have equivalent spd and luck (though they won't) then Ed would actually win avo. There goes that argument of yours :P .

For the record, level 6 Zihark has 25 spd and 12.2 luck, while 20/1 Edward has 21 spd and 16+8 luck. Edward is losing avo by a mere 3 avo. Good luck convincing anybody that this will matter. Heck, their concrete durability is also similar. 20/1 Edward has 32 hp. Level 6 Zihark has 31.65. Eddie has 11.6 + 2 def (from his light support) while Zihark has 13.75. Difference of .15. Oh no. Z wins avo by 3 and def by .15. Whatever will Edward do??? Then there is strength. Ed has 17.6 at this point, and Z has 18.05. Small difference. And on top of that, consider the possibility of bexp after Ed caps hp/skl/spd and you can boost str and luck and def. All Z would get is hp/skl/spd with bexp, and a possibility of luck instead of hp.

Also if it ever comes up, Edward wins hit by a small amount. 21/16 makes for 42 + 16 + 8 (caladbolg) + 8 (support) = 74 base hit. 24.25/12.2 means 48.5 + 12.2 = 60.7. Even without Caladbolg, Ed wins base hit by 5.3. If you want Z using a killing edge, Ed wins hit by 13.3 with Caladbolg. If you want Z using a forge or the brave sword, then Ed can use the same weapon and still win hit by 5.3. And Caladbolg is stronger than a steel forge (barring getting a nice coin) and much stronger than a killing edge.

[RNG Princess]

^^' I'm going to talk a little bit more about Aran vs Eddie

3-6 Aran is not dying easily but not doubling either, Eddie only doubles tigers and has shaky durability.

Beastfoe makes Aran > Eddie or paragon could serve either well but beastfoe = major boon for Aran.

but on 3-12 (idk what level is expected) a 20/15 Aran has 20 speed so he's not doubling too many enemies.

3-13 turns in favor of Aran because of beastfoe

but my request is that Aran move down closer to Edward ^^' because in Part 1 Eddie is definitely > Aran and in Part 3 Aran > Eddie and by Part 4 both are probably solid enough but by endgame Eddie > Aran.

Edited March 23, 2011 by Queen_Elincia

[Florete]

I'm pretty sure Aran and Edward were both supposed to move to Middle in the past but it never happened, like some other stuff. I support it, and I'd do it myself but I'd rather not one-up Narga when he is technically the one in charge of editing the list right now.

Also, I believe we're overdue for Haar > Ike.

[Anouleth]

Beastfoe makes Aran > Eddie or paragon could serve either well but beastfoe = major boon for Aran.

Nolan or Volug probably exist, and they use Beastfoe much better than either of them. For what it's worth, Aran still fails to OHKO Tigers with Beastfoe, while Edward 2HKOes and doubles (both ORKO).

Of course, Edward doesn't even care about Beastfoe. Picture this, you have a weakened Edward on Player phase with Wrath, Resolve, and Cancel. Against Cats, he has a 83% chance to crit them on his first attack with a critforge, plus a ~31% chance to Cancel and avoid their counterattack, plus a ~82% chance to dodge their counter-attack if it comes. It's even better in 3-13 since Edward is likely strong enough to 3HKO them with a Killing Edge, which puts his chance to kill into the high 90s, just on his first attack.

but on 3-12 (idk what level is expected) a 20/15 Aran has 20 speed so he's not doubling too many enemies.

20/15 is way too high.

3-13 turns in favor of Aran because of beastfoe

If Edward can have wtfoffense without needing to take beastfoe away from Nolan/Volug, obviously it's him that's at the advantage, not Aran.

but my request is that Aran move down closer to Edward ^^' because in Part 1 Eddie is definitely > Aran and in Part 3 Aran > Eddie and by Part 4 both are probably solid enough but by endgame Eddie > Aran.

In Part 4, Edward is definitely better. Aran has the 'doesn't double anything' problem, which is fine enough in DB chapters, but not in Part 4.

[nflchamp]

3-6 Aran is not dying easily but not doubling either, Eddie only doubles tigers and has shaky durability.

Beastfoe makes Aran > Eddie or paragon could serve either well but beastfoe = major boon for Aran.

Aran doesn't OHKO everything w/ Beastfoe, so how is he better?

[RNG Princess]

Aran doesn't OHKO everything w/ Beastfoe, so how is he better?

Actually I'm in favor of Aran going below Eddie but since Aran's durability > Eddie i'd assume a strong lance for Aran + durability lead > Eddie? (oh and beastfoe lol)

I don't want to seem unfair on Aran vs Eddie ^^'

Edited March 23, 2011 by Queen_Elincia

[nflchamp]

Actually I'm in favor of Aran going below Eddie but since Aran's durability > Eddie i'd assume a strong lance for Aran + durability lead > Eddie? (oh and beastfoe lol)

I don't want to seem unfair on Aran vs Eddie ^^'

Eddie needs to be about 15/1 or 16/1 to OHKO all cats w/ Beastfoe and likely doubles Tigers. Aran easily OHKO cats w/ Beastfoe, but needs 21 STR (needs to max before promotion) w/ a max MT steel forge to OHKO low end Tigers; and he isn't doubling Tigers.

I don't know which way that falls as far as who is better in 3-6.

[Junkhead]

but on 3-12 (idk what level is expected) a 20/15 Aran has 20 speed so he's not doubling too many enemies.

That's a 5uge overlevel for Aran there. I wouldn't even assume he gets to be more than 20/5. I like to consider that both Nolan and Jill are also being trained along Edward or Aran, so that adds some difficulty to their first tier leveling. It's more of a case for Aran, I would say. I would say he gets out of Part 1 around lvl 16-17 at most, considering Nolan & Jill are at 20/1 by 1-E.

Edward has a rough Part 1 & 3. It's mostly self-improvement. But isn't it the same for Aran? All he can do is just tank things in Part 3, and that's about it. I wouldn't even consider his "tanking" abilites when he can get doubled by the many enemies running around with 20 AS and high Atk (Hello, Warriors). Why would you honestly train a unit that just has a purpose of blocking a path and then bench him? Unlike Edward, he doesn't get any better in Part 4 and would wish to see Endgame.

Edited March 24, 2011 by Soul

[RNG Princess]

That's a 5uge overlevel for Aran there. I wouldn't even assume he gets to be more than 20/5. I like to consider that both Nolan and Jill are also being trained along Edward or Aran, so that adds some difficulty to their first tier leveling. It's more of a case for Aran, I would say. I would say he gets out of Part 1 around lvl 16-17 at most, considering Nolan & Jill are at 20/1 by 1-E.

Edward has a rough Part 1 & 3. It's mostly self-improvement. But isn't it the same for Aran? All he can do is just tank things in Part 3, and that's about it. I wouldn't even consider his "tanking" abilites when he can get doubled by the many enemies running around with 20 AS and high Atk (Hello, Warriors). Why would you honestly train a unit that just has a purpose of blocking a path and then bench him? Unlike Edward, he doesn't get any better in Part 4 and would wish to see Endgame.

Thats what i'm trying to explain ^^'

ughhh I'm horrible at explainin things QQ

but yea some people are a little overrated in this list ^^' Aran is just one of them, Brom gets left behind too, and I'd consider Sanaki over Lethe. Doesn't Lethe tink in 2-E? I know she's useless by part 3.