OMG it's a tier list

[-Cynthia-]

Kieran can't use the Brave Lance.

Still not understanding the logic behind something like Giffca/Skrimir>Geoffrey, unless you want to make the argument that they make more of an impace on 4-E than Geoffrey does in 2-3 and 3-9. They probably shouldn't be above Kieran either, come to think of it.

[Interceptor]

Kieran can't use the Brave Lance.

Well, the Brave Lance isn't really the epic pubstomping weapon in HM that it is in NM, to be honest.

Still not understanding the logic behind something like Giffca/Skrimir>Geoffrey, unless you want to make the argument that they make more of an impace on 4-E than Geoffrey does in 2-3 and 3-9. They probably shouldn't be above Kieran either, come to think of it.

I wasn't saying that Giffca/Skrimir>Geoffrey, I was pointing out that you'd have better luck moving people around if you kept your arguments contained to people that actually have situations that resemble one another. The closest that you're going to come to an apples to apples comparison when it comes to Geoffrey, is probably going to be units like those.

[Florete]

I often wonder about things like Geoffrey/Kieran vs. Giffca/Caineghis. It's one of the things that just makes tiering this game difficult. It is quite possible that Geoffrey is too low in comparison to the Lions.

[Anouleth]

I often wonder about things like Geoffrey/Kieran vs. Giffca/Caineghis. It's one of the things that just makes tiering this game difficult. It is quite possible that Geoffrey is too low in comparison to the Lions.

I think it's rather a case of the Lions being too high. I think they're overdue to move down. It's debatable if they can even save 1 turn in the whole of 4-E, they are probably just replacing some beorc who didn't quite make the cut like Mia or whoever, or even one of the competent laguz like Volug or the Hawks, while it's clear that Kieran and Geoffrey do make a big difference in 2-3 and in 3-9. Hell, even Edward can make a case for his earlygame utility having a bigger impact than Endgame use.

I also think there should be a clear positioning of Giffca above Caineghis. Caineghis' higher damage is only relevant against something like 1 or 2 Cover Generals in 4-E-1, while Giffca ORKOes Sephiran cleanly, which makes the 1-turn clear of 4-E-4 easier to pull off since you only need to get 5 units to Sephiran instead of 6. It's also easier, I think, to get Giffca to cap his strength and speed, which is helpful in 4-E-5. As fond as I am of the idea of slashing Caineghis and Giffca, I think they should be separated.

[RNG Princess]

Yeah, I'm not too sure about Geoffrey, either. He's good and all, but he's not so much better than the rest of the team that you really rely on him, and the others are going to be more worth an experience investment if you plan to use any of them later. Kieran can do pretty much everything the same as Geoffrey in those maps anyway.

Geoffrey is more significant in 2-3 compared to Kieran due to his starting point, and he can use short lances which gives him a little more spotlight against the Crossbow enemies but Brave Lance is irrelevant on any and every enemy except the boss (but I'd rather feed it to Marcia). Kieran takes the stage on 3-9 though unless Geoffrey still has his brave lance. I say Geoffrey and Kieran should be on the same tier (Kieran still above) and both > Soren. Soren does have more availability but that argument doesn't apply to Ilyana by the looks of it, Soren's move and durability is always going to haunt him.

Noone from the CRK is worth an experience investment other than maybe Marcia.

Marcia is worth the investment and she makes best use of paragon out of all CRK's in 3-9. Imo the least worth investment of the CRK is Geoffrey because he has no opportunity.

Edited April 27, 2011 by Queen_Elincia

[Zkirsche]

Marcia is worth the investment and she makes best use of paragon out of all CRK's in 3-9. Imo the least worth investment of the CRK is Geoffrey because he has no opportunity.

Marcia is actually quite mediocre though.

And this argument is bordering on exp hogging anyway. I don't care if the exp given to geoffrey doesn't come into use because he'll save more turns being used than any CRK will given that exp.

[Anouleth]

Marcia is actually quite mediocre though.

And this argument is bordering on exp hogging anyway. I don't care if the exp given to geoffrey doesn't come into use because he'll save more turns being used than any CRK will given that exp.

And she didn't say 'don't use Geoffrey just Marcia solo', all QE said is that Paragon should go on Marcia rather than Geoffrey (because Geoffrey doesn't even exist in later chapters). It's, er, besides the point really because even if Geoffrey had 100% growths in every stat, we'd be giving up the Paragon until 4-5, but it's not incorrect.

[Zkirsche]

Marcia is worth the investment

She said a bit more than just she can use paragon.

[Anouleth]

She said a bit more than just she can use paragon.

'Worth an experience investment' =/= 'drop everything to feed exp into a unit with no regard for turns spent'. Even you conceded that Marcia is 'maybe' worthwhile, which to be honest, doesn't really make any sense (since it's not like Marcia's situation changes from game to game). Either she is worthwhile or she isn't, and given that Marcia at least has some chance to be RNG-blessed and maybe even useful beyond 3-11, I'd say that she is.

[Zkirsche]

Even you conceded that Marcia is 'maybe' worthwhile, which to be honest, doesn't really make any sense (since it's not like Marcia's situation changes from game to game).

By maybe I meant that I was unsure whether she was worth it or not, not that it is situational.

'Worth an experience investment' =/= 'drop everything to feed exp into a unit with no regard for turns spent'.

More worth an exp investment means they are more deserving of exp, and I said that is not the case, because the CRK are rather mediocre. And yes they ARE mediocre. I didn't think I'd have to explain such a well known fact but w/e.

Level 20/10 Marcia with a steel lance forge: 37.5 HP, 32.5 Atk, 23.3 AS, 61.1 Avo, 18 Def, 17 Res

So we have a low durability unit which doesn't double and has barely more atk than a crossbow. Not mediocre at all.

In fact in order for her to be useful she has to be better than others. Except she joins a set of GM's which are about to go third tier and most of which ORKO everything in sight. 9 mov is nice, but I wish she could actually do something with it. But sadly her atk and def are os bad her only utility is rescue-dropping. And in part 4 not only are our other units still higher levelled, we get the royals. 4-3 is crossbow heaven. 4-4 she has the same move as everyone else anyway and 4-5 is 1-2 turned. She's not coming to 4-E and any time before that she is still playing catch up. 'but she can get blessed' - every unit can be blessed, so this doesn't make her useful. Not useful enough anyway to 'deserve' more exp by limiting Geoffrey, and if it doesn't limit geoffrey then there's no point to be made about her being a better exp investment as Geoffrey still does what he is meant to do.

[Anouleth]

By maybe I meant that I was unsure whether she was worth it or not, not that it is situational.

More worth an exp investment means they are more deserving of exp, and I said that is not the case, because the CRK are rather mediocre. And yes they ARE mediocre. I didn't think I'd have to explain such a well known fact but w/e.

Level 20/10 Marcia with a steel lance forge: 37.5 HP, 32.5 Atk, 23.3 AS, 61.1 Avo, 18 Def, 17 Res

So we have a low durability unit which doesn't double and has barely more atk than a crossbow. Not mediocre at all.

In fact in order for her to be useful she has to be better than others. Except she joins a set of GM's which are about to go third tier and most of which ORKO everything in sight. 9 mov is nice, but I wish she could actually do something with it. But sadly her atk and def are os bad her only utility is rescue-dropping. And in part 4 not only are our other units still higher levelled, we get the royals. 4-3 is crossbow heaven. 4-4 she has the same move as everyone else anyway and 4-5 is 1-2 turned. She's not coming to 4-E and any time before that she is still playing catch up. 'but she can get blessed' - every unit can be blessed, so this doesn't make her useful. Not useful enough anyway to 'deserve' more exp by limiting Geoffrey, and if it doesn't limit geoffrey then there's no point to be made about her being a better exp investment as Geoffrey still does what he is meant to do.

Hmm, now that I read RFoF's original statement, you're right. Although it should be noted that we don't have to go at the maximum pace. This isn't a maximum efficiency tier list, not yet anyway, and I think that training Marcia can come under the tier list definition of 'efficient playthrough'. Even in an extremely efficient playthrough, we may field Marcia to help out in 3-11, while it's not likely we'll do the same for any of her CRK buddies.

@bolded: It's misleading to say that any unit can be blessed. It's true that any of the CRK scrubs like Danved or Makalov or Astrid can be blessed, but even if they are blessed, they still suck, and because they have fewer opportunities to level, they cannot be blessed as much. A good comparison is earlygame Edward. Feeding kills to Edward is generally the best choice in earlygame, since if he's blessed, he will continue to double in later chapters, while even if Leonardo or Micaiah get blessed all they'll do is put out slightly less shitty and forgettable chip damage.

[RNG Princess]

Marcia is actually quite mediocre though.

And this argument is bordering on exp hogging anyway. I don't care if the exp given to geoffrey doesn't come into use because he'll save more turns being used than any CRK will given that exp.

Thats probably true ^^' but I meant training him is like dumping stat boosters on BK its not necessary to improve him therefore it would be a complete waste to leave paragon on him or be feeding him kills to train him since he has no potential past 3-9. Marcia does have potential and she's very well worth having paragon on her, and there are three of those anyway .

It seems like every unit outside of the godly ones and royals play catch up at certain parts of the game. Like you said she's a good ferry bot and if she's had the training to be a combatant it would definitely help, and the other pegasi are being deployed too (triangle attack). I hope i'm explaining correctly what i'm trying to get accross ^^'.

[Colonel M]

Can I just ask, for the record, what exactly DOES make Mia > Titania again? >_<;

[Florete]

Can I just ask, for the record, what exactly DOES make Mia > Titania again? >_<;

Stuff like doubling, crit, and avoid. In a small nutshell.

[dondon151]

I believe that's item #3 on the list of things that were taking needlessly long to resolve.

By the way, I thought it was implied when Titania (N) went over Mia (N) that their T versions would do the same. Apparently I was wrong; that needs to be fixed.

Edited May 4, 2011 by dondon151

[Colonel M]

Stuff like doubling, crit, and avoid. In a small nutshell.

I need a larger nutshell since Titania takes a short time to hit doubling zone, has no need to crit since she can ORKO (or OHKO Generals), and has decent enough durability to take a few blows. Not to mention the Avoid hinges heavily on the Ike support, though I'm not completely disputing the last portion since there aren't many better candidates (except like Boyd T maybe).

By the way, I thought it was implied when Titania (N) went over Mia (N) that their T versions would do the same. Apparently I was wrong; that needs to be fixed.

Definitely, since now it takes Titania even less time to reliably double and ORKO.

Edited May 4, 2011 by Colonel M

[Florete]

I must admit it seems odd to have Titania > Mia but Mia (T) > Titania (T) considering doubling is a big issue and Titania (T) has little problems with that. Change made.

I believe that's item #3 on the list of things that were taking needlessly long to resolve.

What are the others?

[dondon151]

What are the others?

One of them was Haar > Ike. The other was Titania (N) > Mia (N).

[Florete]

I'm going to make some new proposals and I'd like to hear people's ideas on them.

-Titania to Top. She's pretty much Haar without flight and slightly worse durability. Flight is awesome, of course, but there are plenty of maps where it either doesn't matter or isn't that effective anyway,

-Sothe to Top. He may be the next most disputed character on this list after Mia, but I think we have enough knowledge to say he's quite comparable to Volug. I also find his part 3 to not be as bad as some make it out to be.

-Hawks > Gatrie (T). The idea behind Titania and Haar going up was mobility. This is the same thing. 9 move flight vs 6 move armored is pretty huge.

-Boyd (T) > Nephenee. He has a much easier time doubling and a doubling Boyd clearly beats Nephenee.

-How much do the Laguz Royals actually impact part 4 and Endgame compared to a standard team of probably mostly Beorc and some regular Laguz? I could honestly see every one of them dropping as much as a tier based on availability. Lack of 2 range is probably just a minor disadvantage with the real problem being that you just have so many capable units.

-Tormod > Calill/Soren. His impact on part 1 is more than they'll ever accomplish.

-In a similar vein to the Royals, how much do the non-Kurthnaga Dragons impact Endgame? I can honestly see them, Nasir specifically, contributing more than at least the likes of Caineghis and Giffca.

-Renning? How does he compare to the likes of Stefan and Volke, who are currently a tier up on him?

-Lehran > Kurthnaga. As far as I can tell, Kurthnaga is pretty much doomed to contribute nothing unless you brought paper and glass into Endgame. At least Lehran can chip Auras and use the Ashera Staff. He can probably go above Bastian, too, maybe Sanaki.

-That said, Kurthnaga should probably just drop to Bottom. Can anyone make a legitimate case for him > Oliver? A tier's worth?

[Yuglyoshi]

I disagree with Titania going to top. I think one tier difference between her and Haar is appropriate when you remember that Haar's flying is important in 3-3, 3-4, 3-5, 3-7, and 3-11, and he's so much more valuable in his Part 4 route than Titania is in hers. Especially her dreadful performance in 4-4. And then there's barely a difference in Endgame, but Haar's contribution thus far is enough to keep the gap as it is.

[WeaponsofMassConstruction]

-Titania to Top. She's pretty much Haar without flight and slightly worse durability. Flight is awesome, of course, but there are plenty of maps where it either doesn't matter or isn't that effective anyway,

This is reasonable, but I also agree Haar should be a tier over Titania. This could be remedied by moving Haar to Easy Mode. If you think about it, he really does define that tier, in things like how your units struggle in 2-P until Haar shows up and dominates, 2-E where otherwise you might grind out 15 turns instead of one of the fastest clears in the game, or 3-3 where you get the idea. Flight does matter that much.

On a similar note, Titania (T) > Ike? Base stats, growths, and weapon type reveal an obvious win for Titania on offense, mobility is a major advantage, and Titania's durability seems good enough with support/promotion/debatable robe or shield.

-Sothe to Top. He may be the next most disputed character on this list after Mia, but I think we have enough knowledge to say he's quite comparable to Volug. I also find his part 3 to not be as bad as some make it out to be.

This should happen.

-Hawks > Gatrie (T). The idea behind Titania and Haar going up was mobility. This is the same thing. 9 move flight vs 6 move armored is pretty huge.

This too; Gatrie stock could drop even more since his speed is not secure with cap and probably no crown.

-Boyd (T) > Nephenee. He has a much easier time doubling and a doubling Boyd clearly beats Nephenee.

This was agreed on a while ago, right?

-How much do the Laguz Royals actually impact part 4 and Endgame compared to a standard team of probably mostly Beorc and some regular Laguz? I could honestly see every one of them dropping as much as a tier based on availability. Lack of 2 range is probably just a minor disadvantage with the real problem being that you just have so many capable units.

Best comparison to have here would be a fast clear of endgame without royals. Leaning stock down, cause there's stuff like them > Geoffrey where Geoffrey probably saves more turns.

-Tormod > Calill/Soren. His impact on part 1 is more than they'll ever accomplish.

Sounds right.

-In a similar vein to the Royals, how much do the non-Kurthnaga Dragons impact Endgame? I can honestly see them, Nasir specifically, contributing more than at least the likes of Caineghis and Giffca.

Nasir saves probably one turn total, and Ena another, so I don't see them moving much.

-Renning? How does he compare to the likes of Stefan and Volke, who are currently a tier up on him?

Same tier at least.

-Lehran > Kurthnaga. As far as I can tell, Kurthnaga is pretty much doomed to contribute nothing unless you brought paper and glass into Endgame. At least Lehran can chip Auras and use the Ashera Staff. He can probably go above Bastian, too, maybe Sanaki.

Kurth isn't doing much, but neither is Lehran. He has time for maybe two actions which are probably going to be redundant, so he's minimally or just not better than people in Bottom. I think he's more like to move down than up.

-That said, Kurthnaga should probably just drop to Bottom. Can anyone make a legitimate case for him > Oliver? A tier's worth?

Seems right.

[Florete]

I disagree with Titania going to top. I think one tier difference between her and Haar is appropriate when you remember that Haar's flying is important in 3-3, 3-4, 3-5, 3-7, and 3-11, and he's so much more valuable in his Part 4 route than Titania is in hers. Especially her dreadful performance in 4-4. And then there's barely a difference in Endgame, but Haar's contribution thus far is enough to keep the gap as it is.

He's really not that special in 3-7 considering it's a static 12 turns and you get the Hawks. Similar for 3-11 where you have the Hawks, Marcia, and Sigrun and Tanith are both forced. Haar is better than them, sure, but it drops the actual value of his own flight.

And I wouldn't call Titania dreadful in 4-4. There are enemies down there that need to be taken care of. Ike's route really is the best in part 4 for Paladins.

This is reasonable, but I also agree Haar should be a tier over Titania. This could be remedied by moving Haar to Easy Mode. If you think about it, he really does define that tier, in things like how your units struggle in 2-P until Haar shows up and dominates, 2-E where otherwise you might grind out 15 turns instead of one of the fastest clears in the game, or 3-3 where you get the idea. Flight does matter that much.

Not that I disagree exactly, however...

2-P - This really isn't hard without Haar unless you're determined to kill the boss. Nealuchi and Marcia can do a good job of clearing out the Dragons before he comes, and it can be easily turtled from there.

2-E - Elincia can potentially ORKO Ludveck at base with one Stun in four tries. You may want to wait a few turns for her Bio to get higher (2-P's static 8 turns puts her at Bad going down), but it won't take much longer than a Haar clear. Considering the goals of the list, a 5 turn clear really isn't much worse, if at all, than a 2 turn clear, especially when it allows you to get such things as the Energy Drop, Nullify, and possibly Dracoshield and Silver Greatlance.

On a similar note, Titania (T) > Ike? Base stats, growths, and weapon type reveal an obvious win for Titania on offense, mobility is a major advantage, and Titania's durability seems good enough with support/promotion/debatable robe or shield.

This I can probably agree with.

This was agreed on a while ago, right?

Was it? This topic was quiet for a while, so I can see it having been brought up and forgotten.

Nasir saves probably one turn total, and Ena another, so I don't see them moving much.

Okay, let's say Nasir definitely saves exactly one turn, hypothetically. Can someone like Soren say he definitely saves at least one turn?

Of course, there's also the added benefit that Nasir and Ena (and Gareth) add reliability since Auras have high avoid. Nasir will give another chance to hit while Ena and Gareth both give +10 Hit and, at worst, extra chip to the hit. But I may be overplaying it, so I won't pursue this too far.

Kurth isn't doing much, but neither is Lehran. He has time for maybe two actions which are probably going to be redundant, so he's minimally or just not better than people in Bottom. I think he's more like to move down than up.

All things considered, you are probably right. I just saw Kurthnaga > him on the list and didn't like it, so I proposed the change. Then I mentioned Kurthnaga dropping further and didn't go back.

[-Cynthia-]

Bastian's Meteor shenanigans are somewhat important for a fast 4-5 clear, so he's probably better than Lehran on that alone.

Not sure on Titania(T) vs. Ike. She wins for a few more chapters now, but once Part 4 rolls around, Ike's Ragnell offense is pretty hard to top.

Most of the other stuff sounds fine like Tormod>Calill/Soren, Sothe in Top etc.

Edited May 5, 2011 by -Cynthia-

[dondon151]

-Titania to Top. She's pretty much Haar without flight and slightly worse durability. Flight is awesome, of course, but there are plenty of maps where it either doesn't matter or isn't that effective anyway,

I'd say a better jumping point is comparing Titania to Ike. In the maps which flight matter, it's kind of too big a deal to just be brushed off. I like Weapons's idea of moving Haar into Easy Mode tier (above Ike (T), IMO) and moving Titania into top tier.

I also disagree with your choice of words in that comparison. Titania's durability is significantly worse than either Haar's or Ike's, but it's still good enough. Her selling point is high move in part 3 routs, where Ike is typically left in the dust.

By the way, what is going to happen to Titania (T)?

-Sothe to Top. He may be the next most disputed character on this list after Mia, but I think we have enough knowledge to say he's quite comparable to Volug. I also find his part 3 to not be as bad as some make it out to be.

I would actually not resist moving Volug back down to high tier and having Sothe take his current position in top tier. I know I argued Volug up there in the first place, but not having 2 range is really a huge blow against him.

-Hawks > Gatrie (T). The idea behind Titania and Haar going up was mobility. This is the same thing. 9 move flight vs 6 move armored is pretty huge.

I'm echoing everyone else's sentiments: Gatrie needs to drop like a brick. Why is he even in high tier? Why is he an entire tier above infinitely more useful characters like Boyd (T), Jill, Neph, and Oscar?

-How much do the Laguz Royals actually impact part 4 and Endgame compared to a standard team of probably mostly Beorc and some regular Laguz? I could honestly see every one of them dropping as much as a tier based on availability. Lack of 2 range is probably just a minor disadvantage with the real problem being that you just have so many capable units.

The royals still do a lot of unique stuff, though. First, you probably want to ditch normal laguz for the royals because the royals are that much better. Second, you probably don't want to saturate your team with them, but having a couple for their excellent offense (e.g. Parity against corner auras, 2 Blood Tides and a White Tide for ORKO on side auras) is definitely more beneficial than not having any of them. I'd say that Tibarn, Giffca, and Cain are almost must-haves for efficient 4-E clears.

Bastian's Meteor shenanigans are somewhat important for a fast 4-5 clear, so he's probably better than Lehran on that alone.

Double Rescue is so much faster.

Edited May 5, 2011 by dondon151

[Florete]

I'd say a better jumping point is comparing Titania to Ike. In the maps which flight matter, it's kind of too big a deal to just be brushed off. I like Weapons's idea of moving Haar into Easy Mode tier (above Ike (T), IMO) and moving Titania into top tier.

I also disagree with your choice of words in that comparison. Titania's durability is significantly worse than either Haar's or Ike's, but it's still good enough. Her selling point is high move in part 3 routs, where Ike is typically left in the dust.

Hm...sounds plausible. But is Titania's durability really that much worse? I mean, if you can say it's still "good enough," does being "significantly worse" really even matter? It's also worth noting that she'll promote fairly fast and Sol helps that issue.

By the way, what is going to happen to Titania (T)?

She could just combine with Titania if need be.

I would actually not resist moving Volug back down to high tier and having Sothe take his current position in top tier. I know I argued Volug up there in the first place, but not having 2 range is really a huge blow against him.

I'm not too sure on this one. Sothe > Volug I can certainly see, but I find Volug really valuable in part 3, to the point where if Sothe is making Top based off msotly what he does in part 1, Volug's part 1 + 3 + possible extended use in part 4 should keep him in the same league.

I'm echoing everyone else's sentiments: Gatrie needs to drop like a brick. Why is he even in high tier? Why is he an entire tier above infinitely more useful characters like Boyd (T), Jill, Neph, and Oscar?

Old philosophies. Looks like Gatrie is taking a dive.

The royals still do a lot of unique stuff, though. First, you probably want to ditch normal laguz for the royals because the royals are that much better. Second, you probably don't want to saturate your team with them, but having a couple for their excellent offense (e.g. Parity against corner auras, 2 Blood Tides and a White Tide for ORKO on side auras) is definitely more beneficial than not having any of them. I'd say that Tibarn, Giffca, and Cain are almost must-haves for efficient 4-E clears.

I see. Is it worth all their current positions, though?

Double Rescue is so much faster.

All the way across the sky.

Made the following changes for the time being:

Tormod to Mid > Calill.

Combined Gatrie and moved to below Oscar (T).

Boyd (T) > Nephenee.

Kurthnaga to king of Bottom.

Still pending:

Haar, Ike (both), and Titania (both).

Sothe and Volug.

Laguz Royals.

Dragons minus Kurth.

Renning.

New food for thought:

Skrimir > Muarim/Cain/Giffca. 4-P and 4-3 basis. What are the chances of him getting the 3-9 Speedwing?

Aran down. Where to, I do not know, but he feels too high.