OMG it's a tier list

[Caliban of Sycorax]

Caineghis and Giffca are some of the best units in 4-E-1, 4-E-3, 4-E-4, and 4-E-5 (the latter three being very short chapters). They can do some things that only a very well-trained Skrimir or Reaver can match (sans the movement for the Reaver). But there are a multitude of great units available in endgame, such that ignoring the two royal Lions doesn't hurt us terribly (it probably only costs a turn in 4-E-3 if we bench both of them).

Haar and Jill say hi. They can do all that with Urvan plus Canto.

[aku chi]

Haar and Jill say hi. They can do all that with Urvan plus Canto.

Haar and Jill can't deal anywhere close to the amount of damage to Deghinsea that the Lions can (maxed Jill deals 20 with Urvan and Ena, base Caineghis does 42 with Ena). Neither Haar nor Jill can ORKO Sephiran like Giffca can at base. Haar also can't double Auras, so his 4-E-5 is far inferior. And while Jill can pull off a ORKO on a Wardwood Aura, she needs all three Dragons, whereas the Reavers and max-strength Caineghis and Giffca can pull it off with only Nasir and one red dragon.

Edited May 13, 2011 by aku chi

[Ring Wraith]

First off, why is Black Knight even on here?

I think Elincia deserves high tier. She has great movement, Amiti, and starts at the third tier. Her base stats are insane, with 18 defense and 24 resistance, which will keep her alive. She likely caps speed, strength, and luck. Her only disadvantages are availability (which isn't too awful, since she starts at third tier already), and weak against arrows (but her defense, luck, and speed are so good, they probably won't kill her. She can also use staves, and with her high movement she can save lives in a pickle.

[Junkhead]

That's like asking why the LEA, Sephiran, Caineghis and Giffca are even here.

Anyway, Elincia's availability issue is nowhere as slight as you make it. And her "great base stats" quickly wear out once she takes a step in Part 4. Her durability is actually pretty mediocre by then too. And lol, Mages. Although staves and movement is indeed quite a boon. I just think she's lucky to even make it as high as she currently is.

[-Cynthia-]

I think she's a bit too high actually. She helps a bit in clearing 2-E (we don't really care about 2-P), but I'm not seeing how her Part 4 performance matches up very well compared to Tibarn. She's got staves, he's got everything else by a pretty wide margin.

[Anouleth]

First off, why is Black Knight even on here?

One would think you'd question why Valtome, Sephiran, or Zelgius are before questioning the Black Knight, who is actually a playable character.

I think Elincia deserves high tier. She has great movement, Amiti, and starts at the third tier. Her base stats are insane, with 18 defense and 24 resistance, which will keep her alive.

Actually, Elincia's base stats are very poor for her level. She has 19 strength and 22 speed base, which is lower than what Oscar had all the way back in 1-P.

She likely caps speed, strength, and luck. Her only disadvantages are availability (which isn't too awful, since she starts at third tier already), and weak against arrows (but her defense, luck, and speed are so good, they probably won't kill her. She can also use staves, and with her high movement she can save lives in a pickle.

The problem with Elincia is that when she rejoins, her combat is pretty pants. Amiti is great, but it can only go so far with her poor base stats.

[aku chi]

I think she's a bit too high actually. She helps a bit in clearing 2-E (we don't really care about 2-P), but I'm not seeing how her Part 4 performance matches up very well compared to Tibarn. She's got staves, he's got everything else by a pretty wide margin.

Isn't Elincia's Rescue staff use critical for a 1-turn clear of 4-5? She also has pretty unique Rescue staff utility throughout 4-E, what with her 9 mov and all.

Edit: She is pretty high up, though.

Edited May 13, 2011 by aku chi

[Florete]

First off, why is Black Knight even on here?

I think Elincia deserves high tier. She has great movement, Amiti, and starts at the third tier. Her base stats are insane, with 18 defense and 24 resistance, which will keep her alive. She likely caps speed, strength, and luck. Her only disadvantages are availability (which isn't too awful, since she starts at third tier already), and weak against arrows (but her defense, luck, and speed are so good, they probably won't kill her. She can also use staves, and with her high movement she can save lives in a pickle.

What? Come part 4, Elincia's durability is terrible, and I'm not even talking about effective weaknesses. Compare her to base Titania, a unit who's durability may start to lack by this point. Base Titania has 36/20 HP/Def. Elincia has the same HP with 15% lower growth, and -2 Def with the same horrible 20% growth, +1 if you consider Amiti, but that's still really bad considering Titania has grown and gotten promotion bonuses.

To put it into greater perspective, look at enemy stats. With Amiti equipped, some Warriors can actually 2HKO her. It takes only 33 atk to 3HKO her, which only, like, the Falcoknights don't reach. Steel Bow Snipers leave her with less than 10 HP and the Silver Bow Sniper would OHKO her even at her level 20 averages.

No, her bases are not saving her. Not her defensive stats, anyway. Her Magic on top of Imbue and Renewal for 20 HP per turn at base helps against anything that doesn't OHKO her granted she doesn't face too many enemies per turn.

I think she's a bit too high actually. She helps a bit in clearing 2-E (we don't really care about 2-P), but I'm not seeing how her Part 4 performance matches up very well compared to Tibarn. She's got staves, he's got everything else by a pretty wide margin.

It was shown once before that Elincia > Tibarn but I don't remember how and I'm not really seeing it anymore.

[Junkhead]

Actually, Elincia's base stats are very poor for her level. She has 19 strength and 22 speed base, which is lower than what Oscar had all the way back in 1-P.

Ooooh Part 1's Oscar solo. The best thing since Haar.

[Caliban of Sycorax]

It was shown once before that Elincia > Tibarn but I don't remember how and I'm not really seeing it anymore.

I agree, Tibarn's contributions in Part IV >>> Elincia's contributions in Parts II and IV. Also, Tibarn is a very strong endgame choice. Elincia is not.

[Ring Wraith]

I was referring to the non-transfer tier list, which doesn't include Zelgius and other unplayable friends. Unfortunately, I haven't picked up Path of Radiance yet.

Well, I had a big argument about how much better Elincia was compared to Janaff and Ulki, but I forgot to include the transformation boost with that. Fail. I concede that Elincia is where she belongs.

(I actually haven't finished hard mode yet. I'm on 3-1 right now, after a long hiatus of RD due to school...so I probably shouldn't be trying to debate tiers, hahaha)

[Florete]

Keep Tibarn vs Elincia going, but I want to make sure we don't miss anything.

Back to other matters:

Aran. He should drop, but to where? I'm not sure he's better than Edward necessarily. They're both ineffiient to train over the long term, Aran yields better results in Part 3, Edward's better in Part 4. Edward helps in the very early chapters though, while Aran has no such utility.

I think Edward is better and should move up a tier because he has better chance at doubling, joins earlier, and can enjoy an A Nolan support by 3-6

Smash would probably say like...20/4 or something silly like that.

Aran probably won't be doubled by most of the tigers, since they have 16 AS, he'll escape those at like 12/1. The 18 AS Tigers are less common, but he'll need to be ~17-18/1 to stop getting doubled by them, which is tougher since that's a little over a level a chapter. Being ORKOd by some enemies on the map isn't good when you're supposed to be a tank.

As for raw durability, 17/1 Aran should have 31 HP/20 Def (with a C support with someone), which still gets cleanly 2RKOd by the Lvl 16 Tigers. He almost avoids the 2HKO with a Robe though.

Cats double Aran until he's like...20/10 so that's a mark against him in comparison to Jill or something.

As for offense, he's not turning any heads really. 18/1 Aran with a max Mt Steel Lance has 34 Atk, which isn't even 3RKOing most of the Tigers.

I think we need a real, full game comparison between Edward and Aran to see which one is truly better. Since the gap between them is still fairly big we also need to determine how they'd meet. And then there's also:

So no response to Brom moving down below Edward?

Which I don't really remember but here it is anyway.

Wait, I remember that, and it made a lot of sense. It's one of those things that I don't really know how it's been so long without anyone seeing. In any case, it looks like Edward probably needs to move up. I'm beginning to think Lower Middle is too low for him.

All things considered, Brom may even need to move down more than that. For example, should he even be above Kieran and Geoffrey?

Speaking of those two, there's the matter of Kieran/Geoffrey vs the Lions as well. I just don't know how to value Kieran and Geoffrey's contributions to 2-3 and 3-9. I feel like they kind of devalue each other because you probably only need 1 of them realistically, but you really will be needing 1. I'm really not sure what to say about them vs the Lions, who are in a sort of similar position on account of the fact that you should have plenty of competent units, including the other Laguz Royals.

[-Cynthia-]

Brom vs. Kieran/Geoffrey is kind of tough. Brom's more necessary for 2-1 than either of them are for 2-3 and 3-9, but 2-3 and 3-9 are two chapters compared to one. After that, Brom has more time with the Mercenaries (and some minor usegulness in 2-2) but never really goes anywhere as a unit. He's like Gatrie with less Str and no hope at doubling ever. Kieran also is bad at doubling, but has more Mov on his side I guess.

[RNG Princess]

Brom or any early Part 3 character can have a chance to gain speed if you BEXP+Blossom abuse them ^^' (Boyd T seems like best candidate) for maps like 3-4 and 3-5 which end or few turns or enemies are so far it doesnt matter if they have blossom or not, but it will probably take forever to have him catch up speed. I want to believe he should be higher than Kieran or Geoffrey because even if he's a poor candidate he has the availability over them to turn into something, but his move really sucks though.

BTW I found a way to 5turn 3-4 but Ranulf gets celerity and pass.

Edited May 14, 2011 by Queen_Elincia

[Anouleth]

All things considered, Brom may even need to move down more than that. For example, should he even be above Kieran and Geoffrey?

Not really.

[Mekkah]

BTW I found a way to 5turn 3-4 but Ranulf gets celerity and pass.

Wouldn't that stop you from using those skills in 3-5, effectively killing the 1-turn clear with Haar and Reyson?

[Anouleth]

Wouldn't that stop you from using those skills in 3-5, effectively killing the 1-turn clear with Haar and Reyson?

If you have a good enough Haar, you don't need celerity or pass to 1 turn 3-5. The difficult part is Haar having the 27SPD necessary to ORKO Lombroso with the Horseslayer. I guess if you gave him both Wings, he could do it.

[RNG Princess]

Can't you take celerity off Ranulf before starting the chapter? I don't remember ^^' I always finish 3-5 in 2 turns and I like that energy drop on my units. Its the same thing anyway ^^' 6turns(3-4) + 1turn (3-5) = 5turns (3-4) + 2turns (3-5) except you get the energy drop for the second one.

Edited May 14, 2011 by Queen_Elincia

[Shadow Mir]

Can't you take celerity off Ranulf before starting the chapter? I don't remember ^^' I always finish 3-5 in 2 turns and I like that energy drop on my units. Its the same thing anyway ^^' 6turns(3-4) + 1turn (3-5) = 5turns (3-4) + 2turns (3-5) except you get the energy drop for the second one.

I think you can.

[Radiant Dragon]

Can't you take celerity off Ranulf before starting the chapter?

You can take it off, but you must do it before you leave Base.

[Caliban of Sycorax]

Aran. He should drop, but to where? I'm not sure he's better than Edward necessarily. They're both ineffiient to train over the long term, Aran yields better results in Part 3, Edward's better in Part 4. Edward helps in the very early chapters though, while Aran has no such utility.

I think Edward is better and should move up a tier because he has better chance at doubling, joins earlier, and can enjoy an A Nolan support by 3-6

I was actually going to argue Edward > Geoffrey actually.

Edward is useful in the DB's early chapters because he'll double almost every enemy without hesitation. He's also going to survive the Fighters unlike Micky, Leonardo, and Laura. He is one of the DB's best units and is a prime candidate for Nolan A which benefits them both (+1 ATK, +8 ACC, +23 AVO), and is obtainable early enough. He's also a great candidate for Beastfoe once he promotes. He'll OHKO Cats and ORKO Tigers at around 20/4 with Caladbolg, and by then he'll have killer avoid and decent durability. Plus if necessary Micky can Physic him because she won't do much else. He's going to outclass Zihark by the time he reaches Zihark's join level. He should be 20/10 ish by 3-13 which makes him a great candidate for whacking the Tigers so someone can get to Ike by Turn 2-3. He does around 70 with Tempest Blade and Beastfoe IIRC. In Part 4 he's a great unit for any team, especially in 4-3 with Nolan A because they can take down a majority of the enemies (Eddie with Dragonmasters, Nolan with Halberdiers). Plus he has his own weapon with an extra +8 AVO, which with Nolan A gives him +31 AVO.

Geoffrey is the best unit in 2-3 because he's so bloody overleveled. He has an instant Brave Lance which lets him ORKO the boss at Base and he's not going to get obliterated by any means by any of the enemies. He also has the advantage of Paragon which allows him to gain levels very quickly. [PEMN but my Geoffs usually promote by chapter's end]. After that, though, his usefulness drops severly. 3-9 he's probably still the strongest unit on the team and can work well with Kieran to take down the boss, but otherwise won't be doing too much. He doesn't reappear until 4-5 and won't do jack shit because that chapter's 1-3 turned with Tibarn/Elincia/Haar anyway.

Usefulness throughout Parts 1 and 3 >>>>>>> Usefulness in two chapters + Brave Lance.

As for raw durability, 17/1 Aran should have 31 HP/20 Def (with a C support with someone), which still gets cleanly 2RKOd by the Lvl 16 Tigers. He almost avoids the 2HKO with a Robe though.

Cats double Aran until he's like...20/10 so that's a mark against him in comparison to Jill or something.

Aran is hardly in the running for the robe when Micaiah needs one to not get obliterated with her piss-poor defenses. At least with a robe she loses out on an OHKO. Same goes to Laura for similar reasons. In fact, Aran is near the bottom for robe priority IMO.

Especially since Jill has a Brave Axe and flight. Jill overall is the star of 3-6 because she can go out and Brave Axe the Laguz to oblivion, something even Nolan won't be able to do because of his reduced movement.

I don't see how Aran is so high on the list when it takes so long for him to be so good. Marcia has flying, Heather has stealing and Pass. Below Heather at the least, since both Aran and Brom (T) have doubling issues.

So no response to Brom moving down below Edward?

Edward in general should be higher for many of the reasons stated above. In the next tier at any rate. Between Makalov (T) and Tanith, maybe?

In which case Brom could go below Edward then, because I don't see how he's going to be below the CRK's. His stats are shit but he has enough availability and tanking ability. Maybe something like this for Middle:

Marcia

Heather

Aran

Mist

Rhys (N/T - Mag, Skl, Res)

Soren (T - Mag, Skl, Spd, Res)

Tanith (T - Str, Skl, Spd)

Giffca (T - Str)

Caineghis/Giffca

Muarim (N/T)

Skrimir

Brom (T - HP, Str, Skl, Spd, Def)

Tauroneo (N/T)

Kieran (T - Str, Skl, Spd)

Makalov (T - Str, Spd, Def)

Edward

Brom

Tanith

Kieran

Tormod (N/T - Mag, Spd)

Calill (N/T - Mag)

Soren

That's a jump and a half for Brom over here but his issues far outweigh his benefits.

Also, Tauroneo can afford to drop. He's got piss-poor availability and is only useful in 1-6 (2) because he'll take down the boss after getting rescue-dropped by Jill. He can tank in 3-13 against the Tigers (he should be doubling them by this point), but that's for a minimal amount of turns. 4-2 he's severly limited by his poor movement and the forests, especially since Tibarn, Elincia, Haar, and the Hawks will be doing the bulk of the work anyway. 4-5 he's useless overall because of the swamps. Brom (T) should drop with him as well.

[RNG Princess]

@ Gaius Julius Caesar are you playing easy mode? Idk how your Geoffrey promotes so early when infact the only CRK gaining decent exp (in hard mode) is Astrid which is around 20-30 per kill and 80 for bowgun enemies, but everyone gains much lower experience. I agree with the rest

Edited May 14, 2011 by Queen_Elincia

[Anouleth]

Edward is useful in the DB's early chapters because he'll double almost every enemy without hesitation.

I love Edward, but getting him to maintain doubling speed is a struggle. Even overlevelled, Edward often fails to double faster enemies such as Soldiers, and if he misses even a single point of speed he stops doubling Fighters. Edward does have long term potential, but only if he manages to proc enough speed to double. In many cases, he will fail to do that and he might not double, which puts his combat on the level of Meg.

He's also a great candidate for Beastfoe once he promotes. He'll OHKO Cats and ORKO Tigers at around 20/4 with Caladbolg,

I think that Beastfoe is a waste on Edward. When you have a Killing Edge or Caladbolg, Wrath, and possibly Resolve, you don't really need Beastfoe.

and by then he'll have killer avoid and decent durability.

A promoted Edward gets killed in two hits by everything in Part 3, and while his avoid is good, he really can't deal with protracted enemy phase action unless his biorhythm is good.

Plus if necessary Micky can Physic him because she won't do much else.

Never mind your other characters who might want healing.

He's going to outclass Zihark by the time he reaches Zihark's join level.

By the time he reaches 20/3, Zihark will be a much higher level and still win statistically.

He should be 20/10 ish by 3-13 which makes him a great candidate for whacking the Tigers so someone can get to Ike by Turn 2-3. He does around 70 with Tempest Blade and Beastfoe IIRC.

Anyone can ORKO Tigers with Beastfoe except like, Aran. Nor would I really like to rely on the horrible hit rate of the Tempest Blade.

In Part 4 he's a great unit for any team, especially in 4-3 with Nolan A because they can take down a majority of the enemies (Eddie with Dragonmasters, Nolan with Halberdiers).

In 4-3, he's terrible because the desert slows him down.

Geoffrey is the best unit in 2-3 because he's so bloody overleveled. He has an instant Brave Lance which lets him ORKO the boss at Base

Geoffrey has 34ATK with the Brave Lance, which is short of a 2HKO on Tashoria by 2 points (Tashoria has 37HP/17DEF).

He also has the advantage of Paragon which allows him to gain levels very quickly. [PEMN but my Geoffs usually promote by chapter's end].

Even with the benefit of Paragon, he is usually only gaining about 2 exp per kill because he is about 20 levels higher than the enemies.

Usefulness throughout Parts 1 and 3 >>>>>>> Usefulness in two chapters + Brave Lance.

I agree that Edward is better than Geoffrey, but for quite different reasons. Both Edward and Geoffrey have automatic usefulness in a few earlygame chapters (1-P to 1-4 for Edward, 2-3 and 3-9 for Geoffrey), but Edward has some chance to actually be useful beyond that point, while there is no hope for Geoffrey.

Aran is hardly in the running for the robe when Micaiah needs one to not get obliterated with her piss-poor defenses.

Even with the robe, Micaiah is not going to have the durability to survive a round of combat - nor is it really helpful when she never needs to get attacked anyway.

At least with a robe she loses out on an OHKO. Same goes to Laura for similar reasons. In fact, Aran is near the bottom for robe priority IMO.

I'd say he's near the top. Certainly, I'd give him the robe over Laura or Micaiah who will never be able to take a hit. And Edward caps HP too fast, and Zihark is never really durable either... only Jill and Nolan really present themselves as serious alternatives.

Especially since Jill has a Brave Axe and flight. Jill overall is the star of 3-6 because she can go out and Brave Axe the Laguz to oblivion, something even Nolan won't be able to do because of his reduced movement.

Nolan has the advantage of not having to be healed every time he takes a hit, and actually being able to OHKO stuff with Beastfoe. Jill can do stuff in 3-6, but mostly it's gaining levels so she can be useful later on.

In which case Brom could go below Edward then, because I don't see how he's going to be below the CRK's. His stats are shit but he has enough availability and tanking ability.

I can see it very clearly. Brom has 2-1. Geoffrey and Kieran have 2-3 and 3-9. Brom is simply terrible in every single chapter afterwards. Availability and durability are useless when you don't have the movement to reach enemies or the strength/speed to deal good damage when you do reach them.

Also, Tauroneo can afford to drop. He's got piss-poor availability and is only useful in 1-6 (2) because he'll take down the boss after getting rescue-dropped by Jill.

Oh, well, that's okay then. Tauroneo is 'only' completely trivialising 1-6-2, everyone!

[Caliban of Sycorax]

Even with the robe, Micaiah is not going to have the durability to survive a round of combat - nor is it really helpful when she never needs to get attacked anyway.

Nolan has the advantage of not having to be healed every time he takes a hit, and actually being able to OHKO stuff with Beastfoe. Jill can do stuff in 3-6, but mostly it's gaining levels so she can be useful later on.

I can see it very clearly. Brom has 2-1. Geoffrey and Kieran have 2-3 and 3-9. Brom is simply terrible in every single chapter afterwards. Availability and durability are useless when you don't have the movement to reach enemies or the strength/speed to deal good damage when you do reach them.

Oh, well, that's okay then. Tauroneo is 'only' completely trivialising 1-6-2, everyone!

-Are we assuming she won't fight, ever? She's easy to feed kills to when there's an enemy with 10-ish HP left because of her broken MAG growth and the fact she targets RES.

-That's nice but I'm not arguing for Jill right now, I was making a comparison. Everybody knows Jill is better than Aran.

-I agree on this point. Kieran and Makalov are definitely better than Brom.

-One chapter, WOW. Not that impressive when he joins for real and is severly outclassed by the vastly superior Hawk Army which will have Tibarn, and most likely Haar and even Jill.

[Anouleth]

-Are we assuming she won't fight, ever? She's easy to feed kills to when there's an enemy with 10-ish HP left because of her broken MAG growth and the fact she targets RES.

Sure, she might fight occasionally. But certainly, I don't think it's ever likely that she won't get ORKOed by enemies even with the Robe. For example, in 3-6, a level 20/1 Micaiah with Robe still gets 1-rounded by almost every laguz. And it's unlikely she'll reach that level in the first place.

-One chapter, WOW. Not that impressive when he joins for real and is severly outclassed by the vastly superior Hawk Army which will have Tibarn, and most likely Haar and even Jill.

My point was you were implying that Tauroneo was not great in 1-6-2. When he is.

Edited May 14, 2011 by Black★Star