OMG it's a tier list

[Radiant Dragon]

Except there is no Weapon Triangle in Hard Mode, so being a Sword user means nothing.

[Caliban of Sycorax]

Then, ignore my post. But Micky and Leo still face OHKO's from most of Part 1's early enemies.

[Junkhead]

He's also the only sword user the DB has until 1-6 (Meg is useless and doesn't count), which is good for the slew of Fighters/Bandits in the first few chapters. He's also invaluable in 1-1 because Micky and Leonardo face OHKO's from most of the enemies. Nolan can take out the Soldiers and Eddie can take out the Fighters. Odds are Edward also gets the boss kill because Nolan has WTD and neither Micky nor Leonardo can take him down on their own.

This is Hard Mode. Don't expect Edward to be at a much better situation.

[Caliban of Sycorax]

Eddie is in the top of Lower Mid, Meg is in the middle of Bottom.

He's in a better situation.

[Junkhead]

Read "much better".

[Anouleth]

I would say that Edward's "not getting 1-rounded and doubling some enemies with Wrath and 6 move" is much better than Meg's "getting 1-rounded and not doubling anything with 5 move".

And Edward should be moving up to Mid anyway. Lower Mid is too low for him.

Edited May 17, 2011 by Black★Star

[Junkhead]

Oh yeah. 80

Why didn't IS make her a Myrmidon or a Peg or something useful.

[Zanarkin]

He's also the only sword user the DB has until 1-6 (Meg is useless and doesn't count), which is good for the slew of Fighters/Bandits in the first few chapters.

Edward doesn't gain anything from being the only sword user since Wep triangle doesn't exist.

[Interceptor]

Pretty much. There are plenty of people in Mid tier who like Edward, have a handful of useful chapters early on in their lifespan and have some tenuous long-term potential, such as Kieran, and Marcia. Personally, I think that Edward might even be comparable to someone like Nephenee or Boyd N, but I'm probably overrating his performance and I think that Mid is a fine place for him.

If you agree that Eddie's true ranking should be based on his longer-term potential, and not his forced chapters, understand that there is no reasonable way to get there without giving him resources. He is not going to level up during his critical period in Part 3 without some help, and having him make nothing but potshots past Part 1 is also undesirable (because he's terrible at it). If Eddie doesn't show up in Part 4 as a crowned Trueblade, you can stick a fork in him.

So with that in mind, whinging about how Eddie is not the best person to use Beastfoe, or stat boosters, etc is counterproductive to the point that you appear to agree with. Something has to give in order for Eddie to move up. I say that we have to consider his performance in non-optimal teams, using things that he's not first-rate with. For example, having Nolan be more of a roleplayer in 3-6 while Eddie scoops up as much EXP as he can (using a stat booster to survive long enough, and/or Beastfoe in order to scrape together enough offense to get consistent KOs). We may also have to deploy someone who is not ideal for the army, but can help Eddie's performance, AKA Leonardo. This is only possible because Eddie is not a completely unsalvagable unit, like Fiona.

WRT your specific complaints, I don't like Wrath on Eddie. It's not good enough to get his crit to 100% (which would make it excellent on player Phase), and his innate is already a liability on Enemy Phase, so magic RNG kills are all you get out of him (and only in times when he gets dropped to under 30% HP, otherwise it does bupkis). This is personal preference, but even on a team built around Eddie I'd prefer it on someone who can use Wrath in a more controlled fashion, like Leonardo (one cat hit for Wrath range if his stats allow) or Micaiah (easy setup with Sacrifice, and can make use of Sothe bond support).

Resolve is almost pointless. We lose Mordecai's use of it, for unacceptably high death chance or outright uselessness on Eddie. This would be different if IS thought to include an Eddie/Leo Bond support, or bonus crit on supports, but they didn't, so the bonus +5-7 crit or so from Resolve isn't enough to bridge the gap.

Stats boosters are not a waste. Eddie caps a lot of stats naturally, but this is not tier list by snowy, this is a unit's performance before they reach their potential. If a Seraph or Draco can make it easier to train him in Part 1/3, it's paying dividends for him. It may not be the case that it's enough, but that's why I said "may be worth considering".

[grandjackal]

Grandjackal, this line of argument is going nowhere. It's time to pack your bags, turn in your room key, and get out of Crazytown before someone gets hurt. The problem here is not that Eddie doesn't deserve to go up, it's that you're focusing on things that Eddie can't help but lose, which puts everyone in the bizarre position of defending Aran even though they suspect he's actually worse. I have a feeling that if someone asked you to argue that it's better to unclog a drain with a household cleaner than a bottle of apple juice, you'd write a 50-page rant on the nutritional value of drinking Liquid Plumr.

Believe me, I didn't want to anyways, but I felt it had to be responded to because I just simply thought that the argument of "being screwed by luck" was ridiculous. Sorry for the whole vacuum of not productive that I caused.

This isn't a great contribution, and frankly it's also not even very good, but considering that it's no worse than what Zihark is giving us once Part 3 starts, it's certainly worth more than Lower Mid. Eddie is not optimal, but he is also not not a black hole from which no utility escapes, like Astrid or Lyre (for whom it's counterproductive to even consider with contested resources).

I suppose in the end, this is a far more clear and concise version of what I wanted to get across.

[Florete]

So, uh, I haven't exactly been following the epic Eddie debate. Was anything decided that I should know about?

[grandjackal]

So, uh, I haven't exactly been following the epic Eddie debate. Was anything decided that I should know about?

That even Inty accepts that Eddie might be Mid Tier material on the basis that he's salvageable unlike Lower-Mid and lower?

To summarize the "debate" though, it was just me sort of laughing at the idea of "getting screwed" being an argument to punish characters with, but since I'm not exactly great with keeping on track, I decided to show the point by "ignoring it and comparing Eddie to Aran, because Aran being two tiers over the guy when he has almost 0 advantages over him makes me vomit green pea soup".

[Florete]

Okay, I decided to do something a little unorthodox and instead of waiting for decisions that may never be made, I just moved people around. Here's the list:

Stefan and Volke below Sigrun.

Renning above Makalov.

Edward above Tanith.

Aran below Rhys.

Brom (T) and Brom merged and to Lower Mid.

Feel free to disagree and argue further changes.

[Zanarkin]

Edward above tanith sounds kind of iffy. Edward has a difficult start and can easily get screwed, while Tanith has flying, more movement, and if screwed can still be useful by ferrying other units.

Edited May 17, 2011 by Jhen Mohran

[-Cynthia-]

Ignore.

Edited May 18, 2011 by -Cynthia-

[Yuglyoshi]

Renning above Makalov.

Just to zoom in on this change...why?

Makalov has 2-3, 3-9, 3-11, 3-E, and two pre-Endgame Part 4 chapters to work with. Granted, he's not that great in any of those chapters and he takes exp in order to get him up to be anywhere near good. But surely he's doing SOMETHHING. In 2-3 he can help grab the Speedwing, break through enemies, open the door that leads to the boss, etc. Same goes for 3-9 if you don't have an uber Marica and clear the map in 3/4 turns. 3-E and Part 4 allows him to at least attack enemies to weaken or kill them, and if you do make an investment in him, he can be helpful in Ike's Part 4 chapters or 4-2.

I know Makalov not that great, but it feels weird for Renning to go over him. Renning saves maybe one turn over his entire existence? Two if you really stretch out his use in 4-E-1 and 4-E-5? I think Makalov's contribution in all of his chapters would be more useful, especially if you actually do the work and train him.

[-Cynthia-]

Edward's useful in 1-P, Tanith really doesn't get past mediocre for the few chapters she's in. Though that does beg the question of why she's still above people like Geoffrey and Kieran then.

There might be some transfer characters who should not be in the same spot as their non-transfer counterparts. I would say +2 Spd helps someone like Elincia or Gatrie more (allows them to double) rather than Mist, who still has crappy offense and durability even with transfers (but still is a tier above her N/T counterpart).

Mist>Rhys seems off to me anyway. He has better chip (only really useful for 3-P and 3-1), better Physic range and better healing with Physic. She has..getting doubled by slightly less things, but her durability is still terrible and she has no offense. Uh, Water's marginally better than Fire...she has more Bonds I guess.

[Anouleth]

Just to zoom in on this change...why?

Makalov has 2-3, 3-9, 3-11, 3-E, and two pre-Endgame Part 4 chapters to work with. Granted, he's not that great in any of those chapters and he takes exp in order to get him up to be anywhere near good. But surely he's doing SOMETHHING. In 2-3 he can help grab the Speedwing, break through enemies, open the door that leads to the boss, etc. Same goes for 3-9 if you don't have an uber Marica and clear the map in 3/4 turns. 3-E and Part 4 allows him to at least attack enemies to weaken or kill them, and if you do make an investment in him, he can be helpful in Ike's Part 4 chapters or 4-2.

I know Makalov not that great, but it feels weird for Renning to go over him. Renning saves maybe one turn over his entire existence? Two if you really stretch out his use in 4-E-1 and 4-E-5? I think Makalov's contribution in all of his chapters would be more useful, especially if you actually do the work and train him.

I think it was done out of a desire to put Renning/Volke/Stefan together. I think that as a trio, they could probably go below Makalov, though.

Edward above tanith sounds kind of iffy. Edward has a difficult start and can easily get screwed, while Tanith has flying, more movement, and if screwed can still be useful by ferrying other units.

Edward has a couple of maps of basically free utility, and beyond that has some use even if he is suboptimal (and you can always just not use him if he's below average in his first few levels). Tanith is like Edward, kind of a suboptimal unit that's somewhat at the whims of chance. Difference is that Edward has his free utility chapters. And while you can ditch Edward pretty easily if things don't look rosy for him, by the time you can make a judgment like that on Tanith, it's too late.

Edited May 18, 2011 by Black★Star

[Florete]

Just to zoom in on this change...why?

It was fairly random.

I think it was done out of a desire to put Renning/Volke/Stefan together. I think that as a trio, they could probably go below Makalov, though.

Agreed.

There might be some transfer characters who should not be in the same spot as their non-transfer counterparts. I would say +2 Spd helps someone like Elincia or Gatrie more (allows them to double) rather than Mist, who still has crappy offense and durability even with transfers (but still is a tier above her N/T counterpart).

Mist>Rhys seems off to me anyway. He has better chip (only really useful for 3-P and 3-1), better Physic range and better healing with Physic. She has..getting doubled by slightly less things, but her durability is still terrible and she has no offense. Uh, Water's marginally better than Fire...she has more Bonds I guess.

Units like Elincia and Gatrie are definitely helped by the transfer, but that doesn't matter as much as how it effects the position they are already in. If Gatrie doubling those extra enemies doesn't make him better than Oscar (T)/Naesala, he's not going to be split.

Mist (T) will go down now that I see it again, but I'm still not sure on Rhys > Mist. I tend to find her higher move and slightly better durability more useful than his Physic range and chip. I really don't know. I could see them being slashed like Caineghis and Giffca. I just don't think choosing one over the other will really have a noticeable effect most of the time unless you don't transfer Physic (and Mist can still use Physic).

[Zanarkin]

Edward's useful in 1-P, Tanith really doesn't get past mediocre for the few chapters she's in. Though that does beg the question of why she's still above people like Geoffrey and Kieran then.

Edward stops being useful after 1-P. Tanith may always be mediocre, but she can remain useful in 3-11, 3-E, 4-P, 4-3 (or the other part four chapters. Depends i guess) either by ferrying and allowing for a quicker end to the chapter or killing horses with a horseslayer.

Edited May 18, 2011 by Jhen Mohran

[grandjackal]

Finally, something happens that hasn't happened in the FE10 tier list in so long: Something productive! It feels so new...

So, I looked over the list, and I have to wonder. Would anyone object to the idea of Jill>Gatrie?

[Junkhead]

So, I looked over the list, and I have to wonder. Would anyone object to the idea of Jill>Gatrie?

All you have to think is "Flier > Armour knight?".

[Anouleth]

All you have to think is "Flier > Armour knight?".

Since it's that simple, why not move Sigrun over Gatrie as well?

[Interceptor]

So, uh, I haven't exactly been following the epic Eddie debate. Was anything decided that I should know about?

Just follow your heart and make whatever arbitrary changes that you feel like, no sense messing with the formula.

Mist (T) will go down now that I see it again, but I'm still not sure on Rhys > Mist. I tend to find her higher move and slightly better durability more useful than his Physic range and chip. I really don't know. I could see them being slashed like Caineghis and Giffca. I just don't think choosing one over the other will really have a noticeable effect most of the time unless you don't transfer Physic (and Mist can still use Physic).

The only serious argument for Rhys > Mist is Physic range, and even then only to the extent that it matters. Expect to hear from the pope on this, because if I recall correctly, his parade of retards benefited considerably from the extra Physic range on Rhys. The healing undoubtedly saved a lot of potential RNG abuse.

I am personally with you on this one, although now having said that I suspect that you'll immediately change your mind. Mist has better bonds (and her bonds matter, FWIW), more flexibility in terms of movement (even in tier 2), and has a better support affinity (Pocket Mist<tm> is very useful). She is even easier to Shove, and a couple of other minor things.

Edward stops being useful after 1-P.

So Nolan tanks 1-1 and 1-2 all by himself? No wonder he's High tier.

Would anyone object to the idea of Jill>Gatrie?

Gatrie, probably.

Edited May 18, 2011 by Interceptor

[Florete]

I am personally with you on this one, although now having said that I suspect that you'll immediately change your mind. Mist has better bonds (and her bonds matter, FWIW), more flexibility in terms of movement (even in tier 2), and has a better support affinity (Pocket Mist<tm> is very useful). She is even easier to Shove, and a couple of other minor things.

What, do you think I hate you or something? I've always sided with Mist. Do you think if you suddenly wanted Sothe in Top tier that I'd immediately drop him?

Gatrie, probably.

You sure? He might like the girls on top.