OMG it's a tier list

[Colonel M]

I have objected to moving Jill (N) up because there has been no specific comparison made that takes her opportunity costs into account.

Didn't we already agree on the only actual stat boosters that she needs is the Seraph Robe, which you already stated that Volug doesn't really need it either?

[aku chi]

Didn't we already agree on the only actual stat boosters that she needs is the Seraph Robe, which you already stated that Volug doesn't really need it either?

To do what?

Moreover, who are you comparing her with? Micaiah? Zihark? Nolan? Somebody cross-team?

[Colonel M]

To do what?

Moreover, who are you comparing her with? Micaiah? Zihark? Nolan? Somebody cross-team?

You'd have to be retarted to not know what.

Id definitely push her over Zihark.

[aku chi]

You'd have to be retarted to not know what.

You're going to have to spell it out for me. What contributions can Jill (N) make with just a Seraph Robe (and a Master Seal, a Master Crown, and Paragon in a few chapters I presume)?

[Anouleth]

1-6-2 is basically done before it begins, and 1-7 he doesn't contribute anything other than existing since Tormod's crew alone is what wins the mission for us.

Assuming that you play the chapter optimally. Which is not an assumption I'm willing to make. This tier list is already way too close to an optimal list.

Also, did you completely forget 1-6-1?

That is to say, 1-6-2 and 1-7 are merely chapters of self-improvement. You could even say that's rather true sort of for 1-E simply because of Nailah and the BK. This would essentially leave 1-6-1 up to debate, where I would argue that Sothe/Volug/Jill-dropped Taur are hardcore destroying this map so badly that if Zihark contributes anything, it's very little.

How so? There are enemies in the center and the RHS. Zihark can kill these enemies just as well, in fact better, than Sothe or Volug.

I'd argue that Nolan is contributing more here than Zihark despite Zihark statistically being better simply because he has a Hammer.

Just two pages ago, you said that Nolan was level 12 in this chapter. Even if Nolan had a Hammer (tip: an Armour in this chapter drops it, so no, he doesn't), he is absurdly slow with it and is actually at risk of getting doubled by those same Armours. He has 60 display hit on those Armours, as well. In fact, Zihark's chance of criticalling in a round of combat with the Killing Edge is higher than Nolan's chance to hit once, with the added bonus that even if Zihark doesn't crit, he still actually 2RKOes them. That's not to mention that Zihark also has more durability, more movement, and better offense against every other enemy on the map.

Sometimes, I get the impression you've never played this game and just want to ride bandwagons when arguing tier lists. Prove me wrong.

Michaiah can take a step in that direction as well with Thani, since a couple of them have a ranged weapon.

Even if Micaiah reaches the level 10 needed to OHKO those Armours, they still OHKO her, and she still can't go near them because of the Pegasus Knights.

We don't really have other staffers to name that we want to actually use at this point aside from Elincia, who's on another team. I bring this up because it means that if there's any Rescue-slingshotting, its Michaiah who's doing it for her portions of part 4.

There is no Rescue-slingshotting in her portions of Part 4. A 9 move flier can reach the other side of 4-P with no rescue use at all, and traversing 4-3 isn't really the difficult part, it's killing all the 3 move enemies.

On top of this, she's forced Endgame, so if you have anyone using rescue to help get people around, might as well be her.

I don't know if you heard, but being forced is no longer an asset. Deployment slots no longer carry an opportunity cost. And judging by Stefan > Oliver, a Trueblade still trumps a Saint in Endgame.

It's all automatic as well, not really needing levels to manage. She has staff rank, good to go.

Well, she doesn't, actually, she needs like four Arms Scrolls to use good staves, but they're not really expensive.

Something Zihark's not that good at, if I may point this out for you. Unless you're arguing that by some miracle, Zihark gets around the ballpark of 12 levels from part 3, his combat is not significantly better than Lucia.

If a Swordmaster gaining 12 levels in Part 3 is miraculous, then I must be Jesus Christ, because I got Edward 15 levels.

Moreover, I don't really understand how a Zihark that gains 12 levels in Part 3 isn't "significantly better than Lucia". Assuming that some of those levels after level 15 are BEXP, he'd end up with something like 23 at level 19. Level 19/1 puts him at 25 strength, which Lucia needs to be level 20/11 to match.

To give an idea on how bad Zihark's offense is, to match Stefan (a unit who is basically bare minimum filler), Zihar needs to be 20/8, and this is without saying that he's just Stefan with worse durability.

So does Mia, Queen of High Tier.

That is a lot of effort to get something that's still bad.

So Mia should move down? I mean, you complain endlessly about Zihark not doing any heavy lifting, but that's nothing that couldn't be said about Mia as well. She's continuously in the shadow of better units like Haar, Ike, and Titania.

You also forget that Michaiah's forced. You'll have to deal with her being a rescue-bot whether you like it or not.

Irrelevant, as I said.

Pretty decent at what exactly? Finishing things off, which is the only thing he can do safely? I'd take magic chip damage to help Sothe OHKO what's left with a Beastfoe first, or chip to drain out laguz that are close to detransforming, or just having access to a heal staff. These are things, as you may note, that Michaiah can do.

I have played the game, I do not need to be talked down to like a child by a guy who thinks that Nolan is better than Zihark in 1-6-1, or thinks that Micaiah starts with A Rank staves (hahaha).

Thus, my argument in short. From 1-6-1 onto part 4, it's merely self-improvement unless you're part of the Badass Squad (Sothe/Volug/Jill's ability to rescue, feat. Taur, the LEA, the BK and Nailah).

Your argument, in short, is that Zihark is suboptimal. Pick a new argument.

Zihark, as one may note, is not that good at self-improving. Zihark on paper looks like a unit that should be destroying all the ass, but he feels more like a unit that's biding time with the rest of the DB because certain other units are doing all the real heavy lifting. Then part 3 comes along, and Zihark doesn't even seem good.

I could not care less about your "feelings". If Zihark fails to give you a boner, that should not be reflected in the tier list.

Michaiah on the other hand has been contributing chip damage and Sacrifice before he showed up, along with Thani-bomb for the bosses of 1-2 and 1-3.

Since the bosses of 1-2 and 1-3 don't need to be killed, this seems pretty useless. Chip damage in 1-P, I don't care about any more than I care about the one million turns that Edward saves there.

[RNG Princess]

Micaiah has access to Physic staff, thats a good staff. It's a healing vs combat argument though ^^' i'd be leaning towards Zihark > Miccy because at least he can take a hit and he has access to Paragon and Brave sword after all, he shouldn't be too hard to train.

Edited November 21, 2011 by Queen_Kittylincia

[Colonel M]

You're going to have to spell it out for me. What contributions can Jill (N) make with just a Seraph Robe (and a Master Seal, a Master Crown, and Paragon in a few chapters I presume)?

...Where have you been for the last 10 pages? Lalaland?

[aku chi]

...Where have you been for the last 10 pages? Lalaland?

10 pages of specifically discussing what Jill (N) can accomplish with just a Seraph Robe!? I guess I did miss that. Care to give me a link?

[grandjackal]

Assuming that you play the chapter optimally. Which is not an assumption I'm willing to make. This tier list is already way too close to an optimal list.

Then what would you suggest for 1-6-2 and 1-7, or everything in general? We just act like we don't know what we're doing?

Also, did you completely forget 1-6-1?

1-6-1 is the Sothe, Volug and Taur dropped by Jill show, and if you say "we're not playing optimally" then I will simply laugh. Why would we not use these folks effectively? What do we have to gain? Zihark having a hope of an argument?

How so? There are enemies in the center and the RHS. Zihark can kill these enemies just as well, in fact better, than Sothe or Volug.

I'd imagine a group of the DB could match the same in time for The Crew to handle the rest of the map within time. Furthermore, let's look into this actual reinforcement group. It's 3 armors and an archer. 1 armor and inevitably the archer would attack Zihark on enemy phase, meaning he can't target other armors without being healed (of which Michaiah if you so choose could supply him with, though it's probably best she just blows up one of the other armors with Thani). In fact?

Thani Bomb the Hammer armor, Illyana trades and chips at the armor in the back, Nolan takes hammer off her and destroys the unchipped one, mess up the archer, then kill the armor as you see fit as when one considers the units forced to go, you have a total of 7 character error. You don't even need Zihark to chip at an armor to reliably deal with the armors. At best, his contribution is he kills a single archer. He can have a cookie for that.

Just two pages ago, you said that Nolan was level 12 in this chapter. Even if Nolan had a Hammer (tip: an Armour in this chapter drops it, so no, he doesn't), he is absurdly slow with it and is actually at risk of getting doubled by those same Armours. He has 60 display hit on those Armours, as well. In fact, Zihark's chance of criticalling in a round of combat with the Killing Edge is higher than Nolan's chance to hit once, with the added bonus that even if Zihark doesn't crit, he still actually 2RKOes them. That's not to mention that Zihark also has more durability, more movement, and better offense against every other enemy on the map.

1. I don't care if Zihark has the ability to kill everything else on the map if we have units with even better move killing everything else first.

2. The armor knight contribution in the grand scheme of things is rather small, if at all existent.

3. I am quite certain I told you I used those numbers for Nolan for a reason, and it's hardly an issue in the first place considering how much room for error you have in dealing with this threat.

Sometimes, I get the impression you've never played this game and just want to ride bandwagons when arguing tier lists. Prove me wrong.

Easy, I know Zihark isn't required for just about anything.

Even if Micaiah reaches the level 10 needed to OHKO those Armours, they still OHKO her, and she still can't go near them because of the Pegasus Knights.

Why are we having Michaiah try to enemy phase them when we don't need her to, and why are the pegasus knights ever showing up? Or are we still pretending to play dumb?

There is no Rescue-slingshotting in her portions of Part 4. A 9 move flier can reach the other side of 4-P with no rescue use at all, and traversing 4-3 isn't really the difficult part, it's killing all the 3 move enemies.

Both these maps are routes, so having more units deeper in enemy lines sooner can only mean a quicker completion. If anything, it's especially good for 4-3. Additional move for a unit that can't be heron'd can only mean more of the spacious ground of the desert covered, which means those 3 move enemies are not quite as pesky as you make it sound.

I don't know if you heard, but being forced is no longer an asset. Deployment slots no longer carry an opportunity cost. And judging by Stefan > Oliver, a Trueblade still trumps a Saint in Endgame.

This doesn't stop the fact that Michaiah is going regardless of how you feel about forced deployment. Fighting for a slot, sure I can get behind that no longer being a factor. However, the issue is that Michaiah can't not exist. You arguing we're just hiding her in a corner and pretending like she's not there? Why would I not make use of her when I have no choice?

Well, she doesn't, actually, she needs like four Arms Scrolls to use good staves, but they're not really expensive.

2, but point taken. Accidentally looked at the wrong page when I was double checking. Guess I should triple check next time.

If a Swordmaster gaining 12 levels in Part 3 is miraculous, then I must be Jesus Christ, because I got Edward 15 levels.

Zihark doesn't have Caladbolg/Wrath/Resolve/Cancel/A Earth with Nolan for absurd offense. It has nothing to do with his class and more with Zihark.

Moreover, I don't really understand how a Zihark that gains 12 levels in Part 3 isn't "significantly better than Lucia". Assuming that some of those levels after level 15 are BEXP, he'd end up with something like 23 at level 19. Level 19/1 puts him at 25 strength, which Lucia needs to be level 20/11 to match.

This is of course assuming he somehow gets 12 levels, which I would vouch he cannot since he has little freedom in skill setup. He cannot Wrath/Resolve for 3-6, he cannot have significantly better offense than others to warrant Paragon on him for 3-12, and 3-13 is over with quick so there's not much for him to gain. Not to mention you took your sweet time with 3-6 (your log says 13, I know it can be done in 10.)

By the way, just concerning your playthrough, why didn't you crown Edward? He basically had all the stats he wanted capped, you'd have had a better chance at Eddie smashing Ike's face under Resolve with additional crit from Trueblade class, more skill to stack with Resolve for a bit more crit, and you'd have had Astra to proc on top of it all. I don't think Jill would have minded enjoying the pooled BEXP in part 4.

So does Mia, Queen of High Tier.

Mia's got more time with enemies that aren't scrub levels, caps speed early so BEXP boosts her Str (and soon caps skill, making Str more available, all of this which helps her level even faster), and is generally better in her army in comparison to Zihark along with comparison towards her and the enemy, furthermore has a support affinity that naturally gives her Atk. Any problem she has to getting to Stefan's prowess sooner is not quite close to what Zihark has to deal with.

Don't just throw out a name thoughtlessly like that.

So Mia should move down? I mean, you complain endlessly about Zihark not doing any heavy lifting, but that's nothing that couldn't be said about Mia as well. She's continuously in the shadow of better units like Haar, Ike, and Titania.

Well, high tier in general is kinda weird. I have a hard time believing she's above the herons, Nailah, the hawks, Oscar T, Jill T and Nolan. Depending on what level Neph T is before part 3, I'd think she might have a case herself against her. Not too sure about Shinon though.

Irrelevant, as I said.

I can't not use her, how is it irrelevant?

I have played the game, I do not need to be talked down to like a child by a guy who thinks that Nolan is better than Zihark in 1-6-1, or thinks that Micaiah starts with A Rank staves (hahaha).

Granted the staff rank slipped my mind, but I don't recall saying Nolan was better, merely that Zihark doesn't contribute much more than he.

Your argument, in short, is that Zihark is suboptimal. Pick a new argument.

You go through a lot of pain with Zihark just to get what Stefan gives you for free. Michaiah IS free. Ipso facto...

I could not care less about your "feelings". If Zihark fails to give you a boner, that should not be reflected in the tier list.

All you appear to have done is name names OTHER than Zihark to show things that Zihark doesn't contribute. All you've drawn scrutiny to for real is 1-6-2, of which I gave you and showed he doesn't do much other than at best killing an archer. You've yet to show anything that would make me think Zihark is actually important to anything as to warrant him above a unit that is good essentially for free and without much exp investment. You've yet to convince me that Zihark is anything other than "another DB unit".

Since the bosses of 1-2 and 1-3 don't need to be killed, this seems pretty useless. Chip damage in 1-P, I don't care about any more than I care about the one million turns that Edward saves there.

For 1-2 you might not need to, but 1-3 I'm quite sure you can't avoid (unless you forget what chapter 1-3 is, it's the one where the boss is a cavalier with a wing edge). Regardless, ignoring 1-P, she still has chip for 1-1 through 1-5 where Zihark doesn't exist. Or are we continuing to ignore pre-Zihark chapters just to help your case?

[Anouleth]

You know what, fine. If you want to assume that 1-6-1 is being 4 turned and turn this whole list into an optimal playthrough only list, then go ahead. I don't care to argue an optimal deployment list and I never have.

Edited November 21, 2011 by Anouleth

[Colonel M]

10 pages of specifically discussing what Jill (N) can accomplish with just a Seraph Robe!? I guess I did miss that. Care to give me a link?

Here you go:

http://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=10600

[dondon151]

Even with the assumption of a 4-turn 1-6-1, Zihark still pulls a little bit of weight. Still moreso than Nolan, IMO.

[aku chi]

Can we end this charade Colonel M? Was it presumptuous of me to ask for an actual argument for Jill (N) rising? Kindly demonstrate what Jill (N) can do with whatever resources you think are in her optimal bundle. Weigh the opportunity costs for those resources. Do the same for the unit you wish to compare Jill (N) with.

[Colonel M]

Before I start jumping down cases, I'm going to ask what is usually "assumed" on Zihark here, since that is probably the only thing that is stopping me from going on with the debate. I'm guessing we're supposed to treat him like Edward if he didn't have Caladbolg?

[grandjackal]

Before I start jumping down cases, I'm going to ask what is usually "assumed" on Zihark here, since that is probably the only thing that is stopping me from going on with the debate. I'm guessing we're supposed to treat him like Edward if he didn't have Caladbolg?

Assumed? Well, I'll be fair about it and say that I'm not sure we know. I was actually thinking of doing another playthrough of this game, this time putting Paragon on Zihark ASAP (It's him vs Sothe), see what he can get out of part 1. If I had to ballpark it though with thoughts of Paragon, I'd say...Maybe around level 5 or 6. Depends on how much we can get him to do through things like Sothe/Volug/LEA/B/Nailah etc doing the actual work. I remember last time I used BEXP really badly, wanna look more into that.

As a note though, it's not really just Caladbolg, Eddie can Wrath/Resolve and has a full support with Nolan for part 3.

[aku chi]

As a note though, it's not really just Caladbolg, Eddie can Wrath/Resolve and has a full support with Nolan for part 3.

Wait. Are you guys implying that Edward > Zihark in Part 3? Let's be generous to Edward by assuming that he got lucky with his Spd procs (otherwise he's unusable beyond 1-4) and Zihark only gained 2 levels in his 5 Part 1 maps.

Level 17/1 Edward

32 HP, 15.8 Str, 20.45 Skl, 21 Spd, 14.5 Lck, 10.55 Def, 4.6 Res

Level 5 Zihark

31.1 HP, 17.7 Str, 23.5 Skl, 24.4 Spd, 11.8 Lck, 13.5 Def, 11.7 Res

Edward intially loses attack even with Caladbolg. It takes Edward about all of Part 3 to close Zihark's Str lead. In 3-6, Zihark can actually double most Cats (all Cats with a couple levels), unlike Edward (or anybody not named Volug). With a Steel Sword forge, Zihark can 3HKO Cats. With decent crit and Adept, Zihark can ORKO many Cats this way. {Resolve, Adept} Zihark with a B Nolan support is at least as potent as {Resolve, Wrath} Edward with an A Nolan support in 3-6. Edward has a tough time getting the AS he needs to double most tier 2 enemies in 3-12. Zihark has no such trouble. Zihark has a much better chance of being able to double Ike in 3-13. Edward has no durabaility leads either. Caladbolg's Luck + an A earth support can give Edward similar avoid to Zihark with a B Nolan support. Zihark becomes more evasive when he reaches his A support.

Really, if Edward was better than Zihark in Part 3 (he's not), then he should be > Zihark. After all, Edward has a slightly better Part 4 and his early Part 1 contributions are about as valuable as Zihark's later Part 1 contributions.

[grandjackal]

Wait. Are you guys implying that Edward > Zihark in Part 3? Let's be generous to Edward by assuming that he got lucky with his Spd procs (otherwise he's unusable beyond 1-4) and Zihark only gained 2 levels in his 5 Part 1 maps.

I merely said what Eddie was capable of in part 3. Colonel said Zihark was Eddie without Caladbolg, I drew the full outline for him.

Level 17/1 Edward

32 HP, 15.8 Str, 20.45 Skl, 21 Spd, 14.5 Lck, 10.55 Def, 4.6 Res

Level 5 Zihark

31.1 HP, 17.7 Str, 23.5 Skl, 24.4 Spd, 11.8 Lck, 13.5 Def, 11.7 Res

Edward intially loses attack even with Caladbolg. It takes Edward about all of Part 3 to close Zihark's Str lead. In 3-6, Zihark can actually double most Cats (all Cats with a couple levels), unlike Edward (or anybody not named Volug). With a Steel Sword forge, Zihark can 3HKO Cats. With decent crit and Adept, Zihark can ORKO many Cats this way. {Resolve, Adept} Zihark with a B Nolan support is at least as potent as {Resolve, Wrath} Edward with an A Nolan support in 3-6. Edward has a tough time getting the AS he needs to double most tier 2 enemies in 3-12. Zihark has no such trouble. Zihark has a much better chance of being able to double Ike in 3-13. Edward has no durabaility leads either. Caladbolg's Luck + an A earth support can give Edward similar avoid to Zihark with a B Nolan support. Zihark becomes more evasive when he reaches his A support.

1. Level 17 on Eddie is basically assuming we put no BEXP basically thoughout part 1.

2. It's been beaten into the ground into Zihark's supports by now that he is most likely only having a C by the time we hit part 3, and Nolan benefits more form an A from Eddie than a C with Nolan.

3. You don't really acknowledge what Wrath/Resolve gives Eddie. 15 crit from 21+10 Skl, 10 from Swordmaster class naturally, 50 when under Wrath, 5 more from Caladbolg along with 8 more avoid. 80 crit when you're striking twice with 31 mt which is a death sentence if he lands a crit for everything not the strongest of tigers. To further his player phase, he can actually stack Cancel on top of all of this, he has a 31% chance to simply bypass counter. Defensively, it gives him 77 avoid, +21 from Nolan and +8 from Caladbolg, giving us a total of 106 avoid, growing by 4 next level when he gets speed, and going 2-4 every time he gains speed. Keep some vulns on him as usual, or be smart with physic use and he's perfectly functional, of which Anouleth can attest to.

Zihark cannot quite match this offensive without splurging for a very expensive forge and hoping for a less reliable (36 compared to 80, and the 80 comes with avoiding a counter) skill proc, and defensively cannot match Eddie's ability to avoid counters through crits and Cancel. Should also be noted that Zihark's Adept is very sought over by the GM, while the GM don't really care for Wrath or Resolve. There's a reason people say that Zihark's part 3 is kinda grody.

Really, if Edward was better than Zihark in Part 3 (he's not), then he should be > Zihark. After all, Edward has a slightly better Part 4 and his early Part 1 contributions are about as valuable as Zihark's later Part 1 contributions.

Yet here we see a complete overstatement. I'm merely saying that Zihark is in need of a re-evaluation. A lot of previous assumptions have been changed over time, but Zihark hasn't really been looked into. While I'm of the opinion that Zihark is overrated, I could also be wrong. It's kinda why I'm feeling like doing another playthrough. See how much he can benefit from Paragon (cause fuck Sothe, he doesn't need help and he doesn't end up anything good in part 4 to warrant hogging Paragon), then see what he can muster up for part 3, then see how he carries out into part 4.

[dondon151]

I'm pretty sure level 17 Edward after 1-E is an extremely generous estimate with a lot of BEXP investment.

[Vicious Sal]

I think It is time the mangy old coot Nealuchi gets a review. I have a 2-P strat where Nealuchi reaches S strike and levels upminimally 2 levels. This however, I s NORMAL mode, however, if the strategy works for HM as well, Nealuch wouldgo in to 2-2 with S strike, that would crtainly boost his tier list position wouldn't you say?

On my channel there is a sped up version as well, if ou don't want to watch theslow version. Also, the version is faulty, some draco's get tinked by NEaluchi if they are on clouds, if he procs str on his first level up, he doesn't tink them anymore, thus getting 10 moreexp than a tink. I do not know how Nealuchi would handle HM, so could someone test this?

Here is the sped up one.

EDIT: Also, IDK if Haar comes earlier/later in HM, if so, that shuld be adapted, but that shouldn't be a biggie.

Edited November 29, 2011 by Vicious Sal

[dondon151]

I would honestly not be comfortable doing that unless Nealuchi were in a cloud every enemy phase, and even then the enemy dracoknights will still have anywhere from 42-52 displayed on him assuming neutral bio for both parties.

The only barrier to Nealuchi getting to S strike (in HM) is the fact that he runs out of gauge and wastes valuable Laguz Stone uses in order to increase it. Maybe you can try getting Nealuchi's gauge restored by using the no damage counter trick (Nealuchi has 17 atk at base; most of the enemy dracos in that map have 17-18 def, so 2 ineffective counters will get his gauge back up to full).

Perhaps you can try doing that and reporting your results. You might need a bit of support from Marcia to get rid of the Hand Axe dracos, though.

[Zanarkin]

It doesn't work very well in HM. I tried doing something like that for Neal, but the enemie's hit is just a wee bi too high for it to be even considerably sane to do...

[Aere]

Just wondering, why would Nephenee be below Gatrie? Both are similar, stat wise, but is Sentinel inferior to Marshal? Luna and Impale are similar, but I guess Luna may be better... I propose they swap places.

This argument may have been posted before, I haven't looked through all too much.

EDIT:: Non-Transfer.

Edited December 1, 2011 by Aere

[aku chi]

Just wondering, why would Nephenee be below Gatrie? Both are similar, stat wise,

What!? Gatrie absolutely dominates Nephenee in Str and Def. Dominates. On average, Nephenee needs to be 18/1 (or equivalent) to match Gatie's base Defense and 18/4 to match Gatrie's base Atk (which still wouldn't remove Gatrie's Atk advantage, because he can wield Axes). And Gatrie has a 25% growth advantage in Str and Def. Gatrie will always be dealing considerably more damage per hit and taking less damage per hit than Nephenee. Nephenee, on the other hand, has an easier time doubling and slightly better movement. But Nephenee needs a large Bexp dump to be worth using at all in Part 3, whereas Gatrie needs a Master Crown to be especially helpful beyond 3-3. One could hardly pick two units with similar availability that are played so differently...

[Anouleth]

It depends a great deal on how fast you're going through Part 2. Because if you do go fast then Nephenee ends up at like level 5 and Gatrie shitstomps her.

I would hardly say that Gatrie "needs" a Crown to be helpful beyond 3-3. He "needs" a Crown if he wants to ORKO everything except for SMs. The Crown also helps him build speed for Part 4, which is one area that Nephenee has on him. 15/6 is pretty tough to reach!

[Narga_Rocks]

I would hardly say that Gatrie "needs" a Crown to be helpful beyond 3-3. He "needs" a Crown if he wants to ORKO everything except for SMs.

But he didn't merely say "helpful". He said "especially helpful". To me, that's the second sentence you typed. So you seem to agree with that part of aku chi's statement.