Tiers

[Loki Laufeyson]

Ok i see tier topics all over the place but i dont understand what that means...can you please explain to us laymans what the hell you are all talking about?

(i put this here since it pertains to FE)

[thanibomb]

They are like... how good the character is in their games according to growth rates, bases, class, etc. I personally don't follow them... just use who you like.

[Liz]

they take into consideration many aspects of the characters, such as starting levels, affinities, support options, classes, growths, recruitment level, etc. in order to state which are the better/most efficient characters to use in a playthrough.

its interesting to follow up on the tier debates, since you learn quite a bit about the units themselves, and if you're planning ranked runs, such as the GBA FE games, using characters in high tiers is usually indispensable in the higher difficulties.

[Ϲharlie]

in b4 tiers r4 queers

Basically, tiers are organized lists of how good or useful individual characters. The higher the character, the more likely they are to be useful and vice versa. Characters are always judged based on how they perform on ranked or efficient runs.

[HeroMystic]

Ok i see tier topics all over the place but i dont understand what that means...can you please explain to us laymans what the hell you are all talking about?

(i put this here since it pertains to FE)

Tiers are basically a list of characters in an order of how useful and efficient they are from earlygame to endgame. The reason why they're all over place is because that's basically all we can talk about since there's usually no hidden/cool stuff in FE games. :( So all we can talk about it how useful characters are.

Just go into a thread about one and you'll get it pretty well.

[thanibomb]

Tiers are basically a list of characters in an order of how useful and efficient they are from earlygame to endgame. The reason why they're all over place is because that's basically all we can talk about since there's usually no hidden/cool stuff in FE games. :( So all we can talk about it how useful characters are.

Just go into a thread about one and you'll get it pretty well.

Haha that's so true. I've never gotten that into tiers, and I fail at math so I can't do all the fancy calculations. :(

Edited January 17, 2009 by Faval

[Liz]

Since tier lists are pretty much dependent on debates, it might help you to understand tier lists if you know how the debates work. this is a huge post by our very own Mekkah about Fire Emblem debates:

tl;dr ahead, which is why im double posting

Introduction

Welcome to the world of comparing and debating Fire Emblem characters.

Oftentimes, people not only want to play the Fire Emblem series, but also talk about them. They will use this genius device called the internet to get into contact with others, and start sharing their experiences. And that's where things can collide, because many, many things in these games are based on variables, most notably playstyle and the RNG (Random Number Generator). With these two ever changing factors, people are often in disagreement about which character is better than another. Player A may find Erk a suberb unit, player B prefers to use Nino, and player C's preference lies with Canas. Which of these is the best, or at least, better than the other?

While the answer to that question may seem subjective to most, there are ways to compare these units without using flawed video evidence, game experience and endless "but he has this" "but I have this" nay-yay fights. Still, despite these solutions (which I will elaborate in a bit), there are still disagreements about which unit trumps which. To solve those, these objective methods are combined with logic to create the art of debating.

This article will explain these methods to you, give you some insight in comparing characters in debating, most notably what to do and what not to do.

Table of Content

1. Unit Statistics

2. Comparing

3. Logical leaps

4. Resources

5. Likeliness of happening

6. Common Mistakes

7. Terminology

1. Unit Statistics

Probably the most important factor when comparing units is stats - HP, Strength, Skill, Speed, etc. They determine how good a character is at fighting, and since fighting is the goal for nearly every chapter in the Fire Emblem series, that usually takes up a good portion of debate. The problem is that the aforementioned RNG turns every unit's stat into luck of the draw. My Lyn may have 13 Str, but yours could have 16 at the same point in the game. Because of this, averages are used. Averages take into account every single possibility, instead of just the possibility that gave your Lyn 16 Str. Averages for Fire Emblem characters can be found here: http://fea.fewiki.net/ .

Take for example Lyn. At L1, she always has 4 Strength. At L2, she could have either 4 or 5, depending on the RNG. Her growth is 40%, so therefore, she has 4 Strength 40% of the time, and 5 Str 60% of the time. Therefore, her average Strength at L2 is 4.4. When debating, those decimal numbers are often left intact.

When looking at averages, you may discover that they are often pretty simple to calculate: simply take a unit's base stat, multiply their decimal growth by the amount of levels they gained, and voilá. For example, Lyn's Strength average at L7 is 4 + 0.4 * 6 + 6.4. However, when stat caps come into play, this formula is flawed. Lyn's Spd at her very last levels appears to be growing extremely slowly (28.5 to 28.9 is only 0.4, while her growth is 0.6). This is because when calculating and giving weight to possibilities of a unit's stats, the game gives equal weight to a stat that turns out above average to one that turns out below average, also called RNG blessed versus RNG screwed. However, at this point, Lyn's Spd is very likely to be already capped at 30, so RNG blessing makes almost no difference. That leaves nothing to outweigh the Spd stat turning out below average.

If you do not understand above maths, do not be afraid. Caps are only a small part of debating for most games. What's important to understand about averages is that they are there to take out the random factor of unit statistics. However, it's still valid to state that stats are not locked to averages when debating. And if a small fluctuation can make a difference between a KO and a survival, that is precisely what you may want to note. For example, take an enemy with 15 Attack. A L11 Lyn has 23 HP and 4 Def, so on average, she would be able to take two blows of 11 damage and survive. However, if either her HP or her Defense are even one point below average, this attack value suddendly kills her in two hits rather than three. The likeliness of such an amount of RNG screwing can be discovered by clicking on the stat (for example, to take a closer look on Lyn's Def, click Def). You will see here that the chance of Lyn having 3 or less Def is 38%.

This is the most technical part of debating. It probably feels like a nightmare if you have never been fond of maths, so if that is the case, just use averages for the time being to get used to it.

For enemy statistics, samples from the game are actually considered valid, considering they are less likely to be vastly different from one another. So don't be afraid to match up your averaged L4 Kent against a Brigand you found in the game.

2. Comparing

Now, you know what stats units have on average on a certain level. But you are not ready to compare characters yet, even though you might think you are. Why? For one, because the stats in the game are not the stats used for battle. They all have a meaning behind them: one point of Spd equals two Avo and one AS, two points of Skl equals one Crt and four Hit, etc. Info about what exactly stats mean, as well as information about nearly everything else related to any Fire Emblem ever, can be found on Serenes Forest ( http://www.serenesforest.net/ ). Use this as your main resource.

Of course, converting stats from averages to what we call combat stats is annoying work to do. For the GBA FEs, this converter can be used: http://reikken.awardspace.com/FE678Statulator.php . There is also one for FE9 here: http://reikken.awardspace.com/FE9Statulator.php .

For example, we'll compare Treck to Dieck. Since this is just a meaningless demonstration of comparison, we will ignore anything concerning level leads or supports - I will get back to those later.

L15 Dieck

HP: 35.0

Str: 13.0

Skl: 16.0

Spd: 13.0

Def: 8.0

Res: 2.5

Luk: 8.5

Con: 13

L15 Treck

HP: 34.3

Str: 12.4

Skl: 9.3

Spd: 10.8

Def: 11.3

Res: 0.5

Luk: 10.5

Con: 9

Now, without converting these stats to battle parameters, this is a fairly stale comparison. Anyone defending Dieck can point to Dieck's small lead in Str, but Treck's side can emphasize that Treck has the ability to use lances (which generally are more powerful). Dieck has higher Spd, so he could be called dodgier, but Treck has higher Luk and more control over the weapon triangle. Dieck has slightly more HP and Res, but Treck has more Def, and is able to use a Javelin to avoid a counterattack. Etcetera, etcetera.

However, when you convert them using the Statulator, it becomes a little more clear:

L15 Treck - 12.4 atk, 10.8 AS, 23.6 hit, 4.4 crit - - 32.1 avo, 34.3 hp, 11.3 def, 0.5 res, 10.5 critavo

L15 Dieck - 13.0 atk, 13.0 AS, 36.0 hit, 7.8 crit - - 34.5 avo, 35.0 hp, 8.0 def, 2.5 res, 8.5 critavo

Here, we can see that Dieck is winning Atk (0.6), AS (2.2), Hit (12.4) and Crt (3.4) on the offense. Defensively, he wins 2.4 avo, 0.7 hp and 2 res, but loses 3.3 def and 2 critavo.

However, we did not equip them with any weapons. Without weapons, units cannot fight, so comparing them like above is fairly meaningless unless they use mostly the same weapons and/or have the same constitution, but neither is the case.

L15 Dieck

Iron Sword: 18.0 atk, 13.0 AS, 121.0 hit, 7.8 crit - - 34.5 avo, 35.0 hp, 8.0 def, 2.5 res, 8.5 critavo

Steel Swrd: 21.0 atk, 13.0 AS, 106.0 hit, 7.8 crit - - 34.5 avo, 35.0 hp, 8.0 def, 2.5 res, 8.5 critavo

Iron Blade: 22.0 atk, 13.0 AS, 101.0 hit, 7.8 crit - - 34.5 avo, 35.0 hp, 8.0 def, 2.5 res, 8.5 critavo

L15 Treck

Iron Sword: 17.4 atk, 10.8 AS, 108.6 hit, 4.4 crit - - 32.1 avo, 34.3 hp, 11.3 def, 0.5 res, 10.5 critavo

Steel Swrd: 20.4 atk, 9.8 AS, 93.6 hit, 4.4 crit - - 30.1 avo, 34.3 hp, 11.3 def, 0.5 res, 10.5 critavo

Iron Blade: 21.4 atk, 7.8 AS, 88.6 hit, 4.4 crit - - 26.1 avo, 34.3 hp, 11.3 def, 0.5 res, 10.5 critavo

Iron Lance: 20.4 atk, 10.8 AS, 93.6 hit, 4.4 crit - - 32.1 avo, 34.3 hp, 11.3 def, 0.5 res, 10.5 critavo

w/ Javelin: 19.4 atk, 8.8 AS, 78.6 hit, 4.4 crit - - 28.1 avo, 34.3 hp, 11.3 def, 0.5 res, 10.5 critavo

Steel Lance: 22.4 atk, 6.8 AS, 78.6 hit, 4.4 crit - - 24.1 avo, 34.3 hp, 11.3 def, 0.5 res, 10.5 critavo

As you can see, when you consider different weapons, Dieck takes more pronounced leads. Him switching to heavier weapons leaves his 13 AS intact, while Treck's 9 con does not allow him to do so. In addition, Treck's Hit rates fall very low, and when he is losing AS, he is also losing Avo by more significant amounts.

This demonstrates how to compare basic unit battle parameters. However, we only touched the top of the iceberg here. Above comparison completely lacks a mention of supports. Thankfully, the provided Statulators make it easy to factor those in. If you need a refresher course on how supports work, don't hestitate to use Serenes Forest again.

Let's say that Dieck will have C Rutger/C Klein, while Treck has B Gonzales. This is quite unrealistic due to the timing of those supports, but for this example, it will do just fine.

L15 Dieck - C Rutger, C Klein

Iron Sword - 18.0 atk, 13.0 AS, 126.0 hit, 14.8 crit - - 44.5 avo, 35.0 hp, 9.0 def, 3.5 res, 18.5 critavo

Steel Swrd - 21.0 atk, 13.0 AS, 111.0 hit, 14.8 crit - - 44.5 avo, 35.0 hp, 9.0 def, 3.5 res, 18.5 critavo

Iron Blade - 22.0 atk, 13.0 AS, 106.0 hit, 14.8 crit - - 44.5 avo, 35.0 hp, 9.0 def, 3.5 res, 18.5 critavo

L15 Treck - B Gonzales

Iron Sword - 18.4 atk, 10.8 AS, 113.6 hit, 14.4 crit - - 37.1 avo, 34.3 hp, 12.3 def, 1.5 res, 20.5 critavo

Steel Swrd - 21.4 atk, 9.8 AS, 98.6 hit, 14.4 crit - - 35.1 avo, 34.3 hp, 12.3 def, 1.5 res, 20.5 critavo

Iron Blade - 22.4 atk, 6.8 AS, 93.6 hit, 14.4 crit - - 29.1 avo, 34.3 hp, 12.3 def, 1.5 res, 20.5 critavo

Iron Lance - 20.4 atk, 10.8 AS, 98.6 hit, 14.4 crit - - 37.1 avo, 34.3 hp, 12.3 def, 1.5 res, 20.5 critavo

w/ Javelin - 19.4 atk, 8.8 AS, 93.6 hit, 14.4 crit - - 33.1 avo, 34.3 hp, 12.3 def, 1.5 res, 20.5 critavo

Steel Lance - 23.4 atk, 6.8 AS, 93.6 hit, 14.4 crit - - 29.1 avo, 34.3 hp, 12.3 def, 1.5 res, 20.5 critavo

Here you can see that bringing up these supports would hardly help Treck - Dieck's wins remain in place for the most part.

So how could Treck ever secure himself a win against Dieck?

3. Logical leaps

This is the core of what seperates good debaters from others: the ability to show off convictive bullshit. In a debate, every point is fair to bring up. If it goes unchallenged, or is countered inappropiately, it is considered fair game. Of course, the more bullshit you bring up, the easier it is for the other to call out, so pick your words carefully.

For Treck, his best bet would be to overhype his own strengths (movement, weapon triangle and access to 1-2 range before promotion), as well as trying to even out their level as much as possible (perhaps by bringing up that not only Treck, but Dieck too, has fierce competition for a promotion item, so that they may have to wait until the Secret Shop in 16x to get to 20/1).

Admittedly, Dieck is a little too hard for Treck to overcome, but there's been some fairly huge upsets in past debates, so who knows. There's smaller gains than trying to make Treck defeat Dieck - for example, the value of 1-2 range to overcome defensive problems (often relevant in debates concerning Mages), or whether an Avo lead beats a lead in concrete defenses.

4. Resources

An often made mistake by beginning debaters is that stat holes and other shortcomings of a unit can be fixed by the excuse of beneficial treatment. In other words, Oswin's Spd can be fixed by a Speedwing, Micaiah's HP matters not so much in the face of an Angelic Robe, Largo being underleveled is no more the case thanks to BEXP, and Edward's mediocre offense later on is fixed by the Wrath skill.

The problem with such arguments is that these resources are accessible to about anyone. We can increase Oswin's Spd by 2, but we can do the same to everyone else with that Speedwing, and he will still be behind. Of course, some people like Guy do not need a Speedwing at all. Obviously, not needing a Speedwing is a huge advantage, because that means someone else can get it. Debating is not only about making your unit look as good as possible, but also the rest of the team.

The same applies to all other kinds of beneficial treatment. This ranges from giving them lots of BEXP, skills, setting up kills for them to fix their low offense, protecting them from harm on enemy phase to fix their low defense, etcetera. In the end, having a problem is always worse than not having a problem. The fact that resources are available is a benefit overall, but since everyone has an equal right to consume each of those resources, they are better off ignored.

On a related note, don't make the mistake of counting your unit's starting weapon as an advantage for them in a game where trading is done before you can say "gimme". Guy comes with a Killing Edge. I do not need to move, fight, or use Guy in any way to use that Killing Edge though. All I need to get that Killing Edge into my inventory is talk to him with Matthew. Renault comes with a Fortify Staff, but I just need his village, and not Renault's capabilities, to use it. Continuing on this line of logic, Dart does not get credit for Geitz and his fighting capabilities, and Clarine is not the one that allows you to use Rutger's offensive prowess. All they do is letting you use their weapons. For everything else, you need to move Geitz/Rutger, and not Dart/Clarine.

Note that you can only count a resource as your unit's advantage if your unit brings that to the team where you would not have it otherwise. Without Clarine, you would not have Rutger's Killing Edge. Without Colm, you would not have that Energy Ring from the Mage in Ch7. Without Hector, you would not be able to use the Wolf Beil to your advantage. Without Neimi, you would (likely) not be able to use Nidhogg (the S-rank bow), because the only other unit with a high bow weapon level is Innes. Which brings me to my next point.

5. Likeliness of happening

Above outline of resources shows that it's not likely that Oswin gets his Speedwing - after all, nearly everyone on the team benefits from it, so he doesn't have any exclusive rights to use the Speedwing for his own.

In a similiar way, the likeliness of other things can be measured. The more benefit something brings, the more likely it is to happen. The most important example of this line of logic is the chance that your unit gets certain supports. Raven is considered one of the, if not the best unit in FE7. Therefore, he will be used in lots of playthroughs, since your chance of succeeding an S-rank run is a lot bigger if you use units that help your ranks (such as Raven), rather than units that hurt your ranks (such as Wil). Raven has a better chance of being in play than Wil. So if Rebecca is being debated, she can be assumed to be supporting Raven, rather than supporting Wil.

However, note that more units might want to support Raven. Lucius and Priscilla, for example. Of course, bringing this up brings other complications: Priscilla has a lot of other people to support, and many of them are likely to be in play, and some of them are more desirable than Raven for her due to better bonuses (Guy and Erk). Lucius is considered about average, due to his high offense and access to staves, but extremely low durability. Taking those facts into account, Raven is not likely to have all his five support slots filled, and therefore he will want a Rebecca support.

6. Common Mistakes by Debaters

Here are some common errors I see by people who just started debating, though some of them are also made by more veteraned ones.

6.1 Class-by-Class

One of the biggest faults people make when debating has to be class-by-class comparisons.

Example: a debate between Rebecca and Harken

Rebecca is a Sniper. The only other Snipers in this game, Louise and Wil, both have inferior stats to Rebecca at pretty much any moment. This makes Rebecca the best Sniper.

Harken is a Hero. There's another Hero in this game, Raven. And when comparing their stats when Harken joins, Raven easily comes out on top due to supports and superior statistics overall. Therefore, you could conclude that Harken is the worst Hero.

Since Rebecca is the best Sniper, and Harken the worst Hero, Rebecca is better. Right?

No, not really. The catch in this faulty, but nonetheless common way of arguing is that your class makes no difference for your purpose. Both of these units are combat units. Their classes provide some attributes to their fighting, such as the fact that Harken can weild swords and axes, while Rebecca has bows, and that Rebecca can use ballistae. However, at the end of the day, they are both units meant to kill enemies. What their class is makes no further difference besides what the statistics show. Since those statistics are available - indeed, a centerpoint of debate - it is useless to bring up class any further. It is about as helpful as comparing Eliwood to all people with red hair and Hector to all people with blue hair, and then see which one is relatively better among the people with the same hair colour.

Another reason why class-by-class makes no sense is because the debate is about Rebecca vs Harken, and not Harken vs other Heroes or Rebecca vs other Snipers. Such comparisons have absolutely nothing to do with the debate at hand.

Besides above arguments, a great way to instantly counter class-by-class arguments (also called a competition argument) is by reminding your opponent which debate you are playing. If other Heroes are indeed better than Harken, and Harken is better than Rebecca (which is what the debate is about), then said other Heroes are also better than Rebecca, and it makes no difference.

6.2 20/20 Comparisons

Another common mistake I would like to shove into the spotlight is 20/20 comparisons. People insist on starting to compare their characters at 20/20, and usually leave it at that, but there's several problems with that.

- One of the units might have a level lead over the other during the game, and comparing them at 20/20, or any even level, completely neglects that.

- Generally, units do not even reach 20/20 during the whole course of the game. That means that it would only be representative of the last chapter(s), while there are many, many more chapters to take into account. Winning in the end does not mean winning it all.

- Even when they reach 20/20, they are unable to gain any EXP, and that means that for some games, they are hurting the EXP rank. Obviously it is better to use someone who did not cap their level yet, and only use 20/20 people when you need to (usually this is never).

The better way to time statistical comparisons is as following:

- Start with the unit that joins earlier, at base level. See how he is doing in his joining situation against enemies, and judge whether he is having a positive or a negative effect.

- Once the other unit joins, determine a level that the first unit built up (a general standard is somewhere between 1.3 and 1.5 levels per chapter in GBA FE and FE5 and similiary sized maps, a lot more for FE4). Factor in optional supports for the first unit as well, and compare the two units.

- Compare them again every time something changes the comparison drastically. Usually, this is the availability of a better weapon type, supports or promotion of either or both units.

- Feel free to do a lategame comparison as well.

For example, we have Guy versus Raven. An ideal scheme for comparisons would be:

1. Guy at base level (Ch13), showing how he performs excellently against earlygame enemies due to insane Spd, WTA against axemen and a quick Matthew support.

2. Fast forward to Whereabouts Unknown (Ch17), where Raven joins. Compare their battle parameters, where Guy is probably around L10 while Raven is at base level. Raven cannot have supports yet, but Guy will probably have C or B Matthew, maybe C Priscilla.

3. At the end of Dragon's Gate (Ch20), Killing Edges become available, so those may replace their standard Iron/Steel equipments.

4. Not much later, Guy will promote due to his level lead, and his supports will also finish earlier. A comparison between a 20/1 Guy and a 17 Raven with their shiny new Killing Edges would be a very good move on Guy's part.

5. Then Raven promotes quickly thereafter - noting that the situation from #4 does not last very long would be a good thing to note for Raven's side here. This is the last thing that really changes the tide.

6. Optional endgame performance, with both around 20/10 or so.

6.3 Hogging EXP

This point is often used against Seth, Titania and several FE10 units, especially Sothe. They "hog EXP", according to some, and count this as a negative. This couldn't be more wrong - if anything, they are doing the opposite.

Let's say we are comparing Seth and Franz. Seth is a L1 Paladin, while Franz a L1 Cavalier. Some people say that Seth should not get many kills - after all, other units gain more EXP and need this EXP more than Seth. What those making this argument do not realize is that this is not a negative, but more of a positive for Seth. Think about it. Seth "not needing EXP" cannot be a negative for him. It's like saying that Guy not needing a Speedwing while Oswin would like one is a negative for Guy.

Gaining less EXP is not a negative either, it's an effect caused by having a higher level to begin with. Seth pretty much comes with 1900 more EXP than Franz. Seth's lower EXP gains only affect his own growth. The fact that he doesn't gain as much EXP as Franz does is represented by Seth not having improved as much as Franz by giving them the same amount of kills. When both haven't killed anything, Seth's stats are superior. When Franz has killed 10 enemies, he is probably around L4 or L5, but he's still worse than a base level Seth (with 30 EXP or so). Same after 20, 30, 40, etc enemies. Only when Franz is around L18 while Seth is L2 or L3, Franz is starting to become comparable, while he was definitely worse by a lot.

L1 Seth is as good as a L18 Franz off the bat.

Franz isn't as good as Seth until he hits L18.

After reading this, some would still insist that it's better that Seth does not get any kills. However, that is basically handing Seth another advantage: it's showing that he has a secondary method of being used, and apparently this second method is better (I would argue it is not, but that is another story). If "2nd method Seth" > "1st method Seth", and "1st method Seth" > Franz, then it logically follows that "2nd method Seth" >Franz as well. Of course, it won't show that Seth is better than Franz in the stats now when they are compared when Franz has caught up, but the EXP that Seth would have gotten now went to other units on the team, which is another advantage.

Or, in other words, let's compare three teams, and distribute 100 kills among them. Let's say 5 kills is a level on average, except for Seth, who would need 25.

Team A has Seth, Arthur, Lute and Vanessa, and each is given equal amount of kills, so 25.

Team B has Seth, Arthur, Lute and Vanessa, and Seth is only getting 4 kills, while the other 21 are given away to others, giving each of those 25+7=32 kills.

Team C has Franz, Arthur, Lute and Vanessa, and each is given equal amount of kills, so 25.

Team A: L2 Seth, L7 Arthur, L6 Lute, L6 Vanessa.

Team B: L1 Seth, L8 Arthur, L7 Lute, L7 Vanessa

Team C: L6 Franz, L7 Arthur, L6 Lute, L6 Vanessa

Clearly Team A and B are both much stronger than team C, and both A and B have Seth. The non-Seth units on team A are equal to the non-Franz units on team C, and the non-Seth units on team B are clearly beating those of team C.

This argument goes for any prepromote, or any unit that gains less EXP...or actually, for any unit, really. This even goes for FE6/FE7 Marcus, though it should be added that those have a negative effect on the EXP rank. It also goes for units that hit L20 before promotion, such as Eirika and Ephraim.

6.4 "That's not fair!"

This mistake isn't seen that often, but it's good to address it anyways. Say we compare Dieck to Oujay when Oujay joins. Dieck started two levels higher, and has had Ch2, Ch3, Ch4, Ch5, Ch6, Ch7 and half of Ch8 to fight things. That would put him at around L14, while Oujay is L3. If you are defending Oujay here (if that's the case, I'm sorry, but you're screwed), do not throw up the defense line "well, Oujay is a ton of levels lower, so it's to be expected that he is doing worse! here, check out my comparison when they are both 20/1!!!". It doesn't work like that. Dieck has a sustainable level lead over Oujay, and that's a huge advantage for him.

What's even worse is drawing class into it again. Debating Guy versus Geitz, we will find that Guy has a massive Spd advantage when Geitz joins the crew. Geitz side, do not bother with "Guy is a Swordmaster, of course he is faster! Geitz, however, is pretty damn fast for a Warrior!". At the end of the day, they're all fighting units, and any advantage they have works in their favour, different class or not.

6.5 Constitution versus Spd

In one corner, we have a L8 Hero Raven. In the other, we have a L8 Harken. Raven has 24 Spd, and 9 Con. Harken has 17 Spd, and 11 Con. Some people will bring up the fact that Harken is better at using heavier weapons, due to his higher Constitution, while Raven isn´t as good, since he is weighed down.

Let´s give them both weapons, and see how much this holds up.

9 wt: Raven has 24 Spd, Harken 17.

10 wt: Raven has 23 Spd, Harken 17.

11 wt: Raven has 21 Spd, Harken 17.

12 wt: Raven has 20 Spd, Harken 16.

Even when fully weighed down, Raven is faster than Harken.

Let´s make it even better for Harken, and pretend that Raven only has 19 Spd.

9 wt: Raven has 19, Harken 17

10 wt: Raven has 18, Harken 17.

11 wt: Raven has 17, Harken 17.

12 wt: Raven has 16, Harken 16.

And so on, and so on. What have we learned? For one, the fact that a unit loses AS is not worth a lot if the unit you are defending is slower to begin with. For two, Spd is more useful than Con. A unit with more Spd can use heavier weapons to increase their Atk. A unit with more Con can do that too, but he cannot use lighter weapons to increase their Spd.

For instance, if there is an enemy with 13 AS that requires a Steel Sword (10 wt) to die in one round, both Raven and Harken can use it. However, if there is an enemy that dies to two Iron Sword slashes that has 15 AS, only Raven can double it and thus kill it in one round.

7. Terminology

Sometimes debaters (or generally FE fans) use words or figures you might not understand. If that happens, I recommend checking out this place: http://www.serenesforest.net/general/abbreviation.html , as well as this chapter.

##/## (20/3, 14/4, 13/0, etc)

As you might have guessed, this refers to a unit´s level. Unlike the notation of L# (L14 Treck, L3 Seth, for example), this way takes into account the level at which a unit promotes. This is the first half of the number. The second half is the level you see in the game. For example, a 18/3 Serra would be a Serra that grew to L18, used a Guiding Ring, then gained another two levels to end up at a L3 Bishop. If the level for after promotion is 0, the unit is unpromoted, for example a 5/0 Dieck is simply Dieck at his base level, a 10/0 Alan is just a L10 Cavalier Alan, etc. The level before promotion is often left off or put as ?? for prepromotes (since there isn´t really a level at which they promoted). Some people also choose to simply continue counting after a unit promoted, rather than including the slash. Serra hits 20, then uses a Guiding Ring, and becomes 21. From here, she continues leveling to 22, 23, etc, all the way to 40. Obviously, this only really works if a unit promotes at L20, since if they promote at 15 instead, saying they are 18 gives the impression that they did not promote yet. Therefore, I recommend using the slashed method.

So:

L14 Mercenary Raven = 14 Raven = 14/0 Raven

L3 Hero Raven (promoted at L20) = 23 Raven = 20/3 Raven

L3 Hero Raven (promoted at L15) = 15/3 Raven

For FE8, there are split paths upon promotion (Franz might be a Paladin or a Great Knight). Make clear which path you used for your comparisons, either by stating it, or using something like 20/3 Great Knight Franz.

8. Credits

I would like to thank the following people that made it possible for me to write this.

VincentASM, for building and hosting Serenes Forest, which is a wonderful resource for everything, mostly because it has tested information and not just rumors.

Reikken, for being an awesome debater with short and sharp style that often leaves room for no comeback, and having an awesome Statulator that saves lots of work. Layed the ground for many debate arguments that you see in past debates. Much of his ideas are represented in this guide.

SolidSense, for being an awesome debater, bringing almost irrefutable logic through walls of text, especially when it came to proving the mistake of "Seth hogs EXP".

CATS aka WJC, again for being an awesome debater. Specifically for debating me a lot of times, and thereby making me go through quite a few of above mistakes as well as teaching me how it's really done. His posts, too, have inspired part of this guide.

Inui, Sentenal and other debaters, for being FE debaters.

may i also add that Mekkah's post should be placed as a pin on the debate section?

[Rei Rei]

Mekka's got phd on Fire Emblem statistics.

[Intoner Two]

in b4 tiers r4 queers

I say...you have me there but I never do ranked runs and ignore tier lists like the plague

the only tier lists that matter are the most opinionated ones, like hawtness tiers XD go Aphrodite (but I thought Bianchi was an alright name, eh)

[Kintenbo]

Like it's been said, some list thing that people make based on who's considered the most useful. Those who care nothing about ranks or serious runs may find it a waste of time. Some of the more uptight casual folk might find it an excuse to get all mad. A tier list from what I can tell never says the same, so I stopped paying attention to them a good while ago. One of these days, they'd probably put Gareth on Radiant Dawn's top tier. (not really, but things sometimes change that much)

Edited January 17, 2009 by Kintenbo

[Mekkah]

A tier list from what I can tell never says the same, so I stopped paying attention to them a good while ago. One of these days, they'd probably put Gareth on Radiant Dawn's top tier. (not really, but things sometimes change that much)

This is true, and it's one of the reasons I like tier lists/debating. About every FE has a unit that was formerly put very high or low, and is put in the opposite direction quite a lot. Examples are FE5 Mareeta (nearly everyone would put her at the top, but after quarrelling over it with IOS we decided she's more like High), FE6 Echidna ("another non-Percival prepromote" used to be all that was said about her, until Reikken held her up against units such as Lance, Miledy, Lugh, and she ended up as a general High tier), FE7 Dorcas (used to be considered one of the worst, and now he's more of a Mid person), etc.

[Lord Raven]

Didn't Erk, WAY early on used to be like Low because everyone got Magic screwed with him? Now he's High.

[Mekkah]

Yeah, Erk was always put low because "lolNino grows much more than him" and "just dump him for Pent".

[Florete]

Tiers are what everyone has said they are. However, they are rarely accurate. Like with what Mekkah said, things tend to change a lot, and sometimes there are so many factors that can change things it's impossible to come to a general consensus (like in FE10 with transfers, BEXP, Paragon, and team switching). I might occasionally throw in my opinion on a tier debate, but I very rarely go to them for advice on who to use.

[Mekkah]

They're not really meant as "advice tiers" anyway. They can work for God tiers that are available through all game, such as FE5 Othin, but if you had to pick between Othin and Sety for the final chapter, you would pick Sety, though he's way lower on the actual list.

[thanibomb]

And games like FE8 shouldn't even have tier lists, because even the worst of the worst (Knoll) could solo the game. :/

[Tamara]

Yeah, Erk was always put low because "lolNino grows much more than him" and "just dump him for Pent".

Yeah, Nino's was extremely popular back then. She was considered the best mage by many. Standards have changed though and now she's considered not worth the effort. Potential doesn't mean that much anymore. Now tier lists are all about being as useful as possible as fast as possible.

When I look at tier list it's usually because I want a different team and have a few open spots left. A tier list can give me an idea of who might be fun to use during my next playthrough.

Edited January 17, 2009 by Tamara

[Ϲharlie]

Even a ridiculously easy game like Sacred Stones has good and bad characters. Just because anyone can blast through the game doesn't mean people shouldn't discuss which characters are good and which are not.

[Tamara]

Even a ridiculously easy game like Sacred Stones has good and bad characters. Just because anyone can blast through the game doesn't mean people shouldn't discuss which characters are good and which are not.

The lack of a FE8 tier list is more likely a result of a lack of dedicated fans than the low difficulty of the game.

[Ϲharlie]

That was supposed to be a response to Faval's post. There actually are plenty of FE8 tier lists.

Edited January 17, 2009 by Musashi

[Loki Laufeyson]

ok guys i think i get it now.thanks...and if this is gonna get debatey perhaps a lock is in order? im still n00b enough not to lock my own topics :P

[Ϲharlie]

Ehr... I'm really not a fan of locking topics just because the initial question was answered. I think this topic still has some discussion potential. I'll leave it open for now.

[Rei Rei]

I think Gaiden has less Tier Lists than Fire Emblem Sacred Stones.

[Ϲharlie]

Gaiden has tier lists? That's news to me.

[Rei Rei]

Gaiden has tier lists? That's news to me.

Meh, I don't know either.

But less than few=none.