Efficiency Tier List?

[Florete]

Wendy joins with shit bases before a bunch of chapters with a bunch of Axe wielding enemies, and her growths ain't spectacular either. And lol4 move. I know we went over this before. Sophia promoting for staves and getting the Guiding Ring (since it put her above Yuno after all) >>> Wendy.

[Colonel M]

The problem that bites Wendy in the ass is her low damage output: it's almost pathetic with something like a Steel Lance. Sucks that she gets weighed down by a Steel Lance w/promotion (11 Con)... but perhaps 11 Con is a good thing for transportation.

Given that, I don't want to go hyping the shit out of things, so perhaps a comparison with her would do. Let's see... take a 12/1 Sue vs. 11/1 Wendy:

Sue - 30.05 HP | 10.3 Str | 14.05 Skl | 16.15 Spd | 9.5 Luck | 8.1 Def | 5.65 Res

Steel Bow - 19 Atk, 13 AS

Iron Sword - 15 Atk, 16 AS

Wendy - 31.5 HP | 12 Str | 9 Skl | 11 Spd | 10.5 Luck | 14 Def | 5 Res

Iron Axe - 20 Atk, 11 AS

Steel Lance - 22 Atk, 9 AS

Hand Axe - 19 Atk, 10 AS

Granted we aren't going to use that Steel Lance (Iron Axe and Hand Axe are more likely). Now let's get onto the dirt. We'll assume this is C12. http://fe.dead-end.biz/fe6hmch12a.html

Lesse... Sue can double with the Iron Sword against the Fighters for about 22 damage. This is her practical "doubling" method. In order for Wendy to double these they must be weighed down by a Steel Axe... In return, let's assume Steel Axe. Wendy is 3RKOed while Sue is 2RKOed. Hit-wise, Wendy is facing 46% chances of hit while Sue is facing 28% displayed with the Iron Sword, 44% if the Bow is present. For chances of death, assuming the Iron Sword, Wendy has a 9.7% chance of death while Sue has a 7.8% in two shots, dunno how 3 is calculated (slips my mind). It's much better for Sue either way due to True Hit bending it much lower. With True Hit calculated Wendy dies 7.8% of the time in 3 shots while for 2 shots on Sue it's 2.5%.

So I'm not seeing Wendy > Sue at all.

Edited September 16, 2009 by Colonel M

[grandjackal]

Wendy joins with shit bases before a bunch of chapters with a bunch of Axe wielding enemies, and her growths ain't spectacular either. And lol4 move. I know we went over this before. Sophia promoting for staves and getting the Guiding Ring (since it put her above Yuno after all) >>> Wendy.

I am thinking of undoing that, as it's more the mission scenario to get Sophiya there. She is forced there, but she is such garbage. By now, Wendy would be semi-usable. Sophiya is forced, so it's not like we're choosing her over others for this sole purpose.

On top of this, think how much harder it is by now to get her these 9 levels of which you are asking. Enemies are far more dangerous to her, her attacks are far more inaccurate. When we DO get results, it's quite deep into the game already. All for staffs, because she STILL is just too frail. At least Wendy would be semi-reliable in combat by now.

Then think how easier it is to train her. You got the trap strat in chapter 8. Then 8x, you could bring Boris and Barth along with her to help triangle train. They require no training to be able to do this, and with steel even then she could easily 1HKO with a triangle attack, of which is garunteed. They could help take care of the west guys, so with Roy, his cavs, Thany and a healer can be flown over to get to the throne, while the armors just help train up with random whosits. You don't need to go the long way around to complete this map fast.

Granted she's still garbage in the isles, but she's bottom for a reason. But hey, whatever gets her to promotion levels right? Far easier than any way Sophia could manage.

[Florete]

I am thinking of undoing that, as it's more the mission scenario to get Sophiya there. She is forced there, but she is such garbage. By now, Wendy would be semi-usable. Sophiya is forced, so it's not like we're choosing her over others for this sole purpose.

That's fine. I said before I didn't agree with crediting her for the Ring, but this means Yuno > Sophia for sure.

On top of this, think how much harder it is by now to get her these 9 levels of which you are asking. Enemies are far more dangerous to her, her attacks are far more inaccurate. When we DO get results, it's quite deep into the game already. All for staffs, because she STILL is just too frail. At least Wendy would be semi-reliable in combat by now.

Then think how easier it is to train her. You got the trap strat in chapter 8. Then 8x, you could bring Boris and Barth along with her to help triangle train. They require no training to be able to do this, and with steel even then she could easily 1HKO with a triangle attack, of which is garunteed. They could help take care of the west guys, so with Roy, his cavs, Thany and a healer can be flown over to get to the throne, while the armors just help train up with random whosits. You don't need to go the long way around to complete this map fast.

Are you kidding me? Deploying two other garbage units just to get Wendy kills? That's worse than boss abuse, because it makes the entire chapter a pain. You can't seriously use that as a point in her favor, and without them, she's too god awful to amount to anything. She has problems hitting and she has to take/risk counters against almost anything, unless she uses a Javelin, in which case she's not hitting anyway. For all this effort, at least I get something semi-decent from Sophia> Raising Wendy doesn't make her good, it makes her slightly less shitty.

Granted she's still garbage in the isles, but she's bottom for a reason. But hey, whatever gets her to promotion levels right? Far easier than any way Sophia could manage.

At least Sophia doesn't take counters.

[grandjackal]

That's fine. I said before I didn't agree with crediting her for the Ring, but this means Yuno > Sophia for sure.

Right then. Sophia to be below Juno with her off the bat flying utility, as worthless as it is at this point. Her and Wendy currently contested.

Are you kidding me? Deploying two other garbage units just to get Wendy kills? That's worse than boss abuse, because it makes the entire chapter a pain. You can't seriously use that as a point in her favor, and without them, she's too god awful to amount to anything. She has problems hitting and she has to take/risk counters against almost anything, unless she uses a Javelin, in which case she's not hitting anyway. For all this effort, at least I get something semi-decent from Sophia> Raising Wendy doesn't make her good, it makes her slightly less shitty.

Ok, so you prefer Rutger and Deick killing the boss? Either way, you seem to be missing the point-If I can get through the chapter just as fast by flying them over the west gap, there is no reason to take the long way other than masturbatory leveling. Which means there's no reason not to fill the rest of your slots with people to train. Only people likely to need actual training at this point are Lillina, OJ and Wendy. All that's missing is who's aiding them, and Wendy's aids don't need any sort of training to help her out.

Sophia has no such luxury ever at a single point of her existence..

At least Sophia doesn't take counters.

Right, she just has to earn her kills with her utter garbage hit with far more dangerous enemies, meaning I actually have to deal with protecting her, as if she misses, they WILL kill her. This never changes. Ever.

At least Wendy can take counters eventually.

Edited September 16, 2009 by Kuja

[Florete]

Ok, so you prefer Rutger and Deick killing the boss? Either way, you seem to be missing the point-If I can get through the chapter just as fast by flying them over the west gap, there is no reason to take the long way other than masturbatory leveling. Which means there's no reason to fill the rest of your slots with people to train. Only people likely to need actual training at this point are Lillina, OJ and Wendy. All that's missing is who's aiding them, and Wendy's aids don't need any sort of training to help her out.

Sophia has no such luxury ever at a single point of her existence..

What kind of logic is this? How many units are you using? I always fill up my slots. Also, which chapter are you even talking about? Gaiden chapters have even fewer deployment slots, so no going there.

And you fail to see how bad it is just to set up these kills. First, you have to make sure Wendy can actually kill with a crit, so the enemy might need to be weakened. Then, you need two other units on either side. Given the lol4 Move of the class and possible walls, this might not be possible to do. And now you have three weak targets for the enemy phase as well, not to mention this is two fewer good units on the team. In other words, for this work in Wendy's favor against Sophia, she not only has to pay for her own slot, but two others. She has to be like three times as good as Sophia over the course of the game if she's to use this strategy to go over her, because she has a massive debt to pay.

Right, she just has to earn her kills with her utter garbage hit with far more dangerous enemies, meaning I actually have to deal with protecting her, as if she misses, they WILL kill her. This never changes. Ever.

It's the same for Wendy, only I have to constantly heal Wendy.

And when Sophia promotes, she doesn't even have to worry about combat anymore.

At least Wendy can take counters eventually.

At least Sohpia never has to bother with them.

You know, this whole thing is really annoying, since I know we've been over it at least twice in this very thread and got to the same conclusion, yet one person mentions Wendy possibly going up and you're all hyped about it. Do you just have a thing for armored units?

[Colonel M]

Keep in mind I didn't mention Wendy moving up. If anything, I shot it down with a slug.

Edited September 16, 2009 by Colonel M

[grandjackal]

What kind of logic is this? How many units are you using? I always fill up my slots. Also, which chapter are you even talking about? Gaiden chapters have even fewer deployment slots, so no going there.

A flier and a healer is 2 slots. Wendy and her partners makes it 5. 2 boss killers of your choice make 7. You telling me there's not 7 slots here? This isn't Armads, 8x is actually linient in comparison.

And you fail to see how bad it is just to set up these kills. First, you have to make sure Wendy can actually kill with a crit, so the enemy might need to be weakened. Then, you need two other units on either side. Given the lol4 Move of the class and possible walls, this might not be possible to do. And now you have three weak targets for the enemy phase as well, not to mention this is two fewer good units on the team. In other words, for this work in Wendy's favor against Sophia, she not only has to pay for her own slot, but two others. She has to be like three times as good as Sophia over the course of the game if she's to use this strategy to go over her, because she has a massive debt to pay.

Oh the tragedy of 3 slots when at most I need 4. Again, you don't have to take the long way, and is probably faster to take the short way. This is negligeable at best. As for setting up kills...

As a note, 14 Mt with her steel lance actually DOES OHKO generally every enemy in 8x save a couple fighters, but guess what? Off the bat, we got two people who can do this anyways. I fail to see the problem.

Finally, the nature of the map. Those enemies going down the right side tend to go down 1 by 1, and are easy pickings. The rest of the enemies tend to just sit there, easy pickings, save a few. But hey, BArth's tough off the bat. Him taking a few shots is no problemo if we need to drag someone out.

Also, I noticed that fighters at melee can't double her unless they use a hand axe, which are fewer in comparison to the steelers. Also, another guy who can't ORKO her, even with doubling.

Even with steel, he can't. Gotta love WTA.

So yeah, I don't see training her being a problem at all. Their move is pretty much a null problem, as we've flown Roy and his killers to the throne. We don't care what the people taking the right side do.

It's the same for Wendy, only I have to constantly heal Wendy.

Better to be healable than to die.

And when Sophia promotes, she doesn't even have to worry about combat anymore.

Sweet, we wasted a ring and plenty of ample opportunities to get a kill (she WILL miss, and it's much more troubleseome at this time, s enemies can kill her in every way imagineable).

I mean, you're basically wasting a ring to get something similar to base Saul. When will she decide to hit things (which we had to wittle down and pray to the RNG gods she hits the damn target with her lol 77 hit of which is barely better than Wendy with a javelin back when she was at base), kill them enough to get to proper promotion level? Definitely isn't Sacae, where we need her to stand far the hell away. Definitely isn't Ilia, where we need to have her ass covered at all times as well as her front. At least an early promo Wendy has enough time to be useful.

At least Sohpia never has to bother with them.

Right, she just has to deal with needing to be trained up to serve the function Saul had way back when he was at base, now nearing the later end chapters. All this way for E Staffs near endgame?

You know, this whole thing is really annoying, since I know we've been over it at least twice in this very thread and got to the same conclusion, yet one person mentions Wendy possibly going up and you're all hyped about it. Do you just have a thing for armored units?

I'm sure it's been talked over many times of who is the more useless pink haired unit, but perhaps Sofia comes to late to put her lol E staffs to any use. If I wanted a defenseless healer in the lategame, I would have just brought Saul without training him. If her staffs aren't good enough to put her above someone who's flying utility comes at a time where it's damn near useless, I see no reason it should put her above someone who gains some form of competence by the time she shows up.

[Florete]

Sweet, we wasted a ring and plenty of ample opportunities to get a kill (she WILL miss, and it's much more troubleseome at this time, s enemies can kill her in every way imagineable).

I mean, you're basically wasting a ring to get something similar to base Saul.

Right, she just has to deal with needing to be trained up to serve the function Saul had way back when he was at base, now nearing the later end chapters. All this way for E Staffs near endgame?

What the fuck is this shit? There are replacements for Sophia, but none for Wendy? Sophia is wasting a Guiding Ring, yet no mention of Wendy's Knight Crest (which is generally in shorter supply)?

Cry harder, God damn it.

And your arguments for using the triangle attack are absurd. You're assuming the only units we field are two boss killers and then 4 other units to help Wendy (The flier, Barth and Bors, and the healer)? What the fuck!? Do you want to beat the game within a reasonable amount of time at all? I can hardly fathom how absurd this kind of idea is in a tier thread. What the hell happened to the rest of the team? Where are the Top, High, and Upper Mid units?

EDIT: I really hope I misunderstood you, because the way this sounds now is just....Oh, my God. It's like you're formulating your entire damn team around Wendy.

Edited September 16, 2009 by Red Fox of Fire

[Mekkah]

Oh, my God. It's like you're formulating your entire damn team around Wendy.

srsly. At least Bors was durable against a reasonable portion of enemies.

[grandjackal]

The point is Wendy comes sooner, and can put a knight's crest to use before Sophia can her guiding ring. When I use the knight's crest on Wendy, I get something semi-competent. Yeah there are better fighters, but the point is she's at least usable. On the other hand, I'm using the ring on Sophia, and actually get something worse than a healer I already have since chapter 5. He is better because he has D Staffs for Mend, and Sophia doesn't. Find me someone who joins at base that is competent as Wendy when she promotes. I garuntee it won't be as easy as using BASE SAUL.

As for triangle attack...You DO realize this is ONLY for 8x, right? That of which I could just use a flier to transport Roy and the killers of his choice over to the throne which may be SHORTER than taking the long snake-ass way around, right? Meaning all it is is basically an alleyway of exp? Think of it this way. You fly them over. Now look at it as a time limit. The closer he gets to the throne, the less time the people left behind have to get exp. When he gets to the throne, exp orgy is over. With chapter 8 in mind where she can clog the upper left room with the trapping strat (she IS forced, she IS there, and there's little else she's gonna do) where she can lob javelins all day. With her leveling speed, I could see her level 6 by the isles (basically a kill in 8 is a level for her if she got it all by herself, which she can with this strategy). This is usable at the isles. Not GREAT, but usable. Hear me? Usable. As in far less effort is needed for Wendy than it is for Sophia. Nothing doubles her save the obvious merc who can't ORKO her anyways. As much as I wish I had the axereaver right now, I'd say this is better than needing to go through the effort of training Sophia up with her permanently shoddy accuracy against MUCH faster and stronger units of which basically nothing improves for 9 levels until FINALLY I promote her for the sole purpose of staffs, of which an untrained Saul does better.

[Dr. Tarrasque]

It's easier to get Sophia to use E staves than it is to get Wendy to ever amount to anything. If Sophia's just gonna use E staves, she can do so after level 10 promotion, she'll have 6 MOV and won't ever have to worry about the stinking frontlines. Wendy on the other hand is a freaking combat unit using Lances around the time where you've still got Axe users. She has to eat counter-attacks or attacked with a ranged weapon and have shitty hit rate and more effort to get her to do her job.

Why are you so hellbent on defending these stupid Armor Knights?

[grandjackal]

It's easier to get Sophia to use E staves than it is to get Wendy to ever amount to anything. If Sophia's just gonna use E staves, she can do so after level 10 promotion, she'll have 6 MOV and won't ever have to worry about the stinking frontlines. Wendy on the other hand is a freaking combat unit using Lances around the time where you've still got Axe users. She has to eat counter-attacks or attacked with a ranged weapon and have shitty hit rate and more effort to get her to do her job.

Why are you so hellbent on defending these stupid Armor Knights?

Should I just remove the armor knights from the list, since the idea behind them seems to be don't use them ever because lolarmor?

I'm aware we can have her use E staffs to get something that Saul does better eons ago. At least when Wendy promotes early, she's competent.

But fuck it, why argue? Everyone's just gonna say "lolarmor", and that's an automatic loss for the armors. If it won't call to bring them off the list, should I just drop them all into bottom?

[Dr. Tarrasque]

It's easier to get Sophia to use E staves than it is to get Wendy to ever amount to anything. If Sophia's just gonna use E staves, she can do so after level 10 promotion, she'll have 6 MOV and won't ever have to worry about the stinking frontlines. Wendy on the other hand is a freaking combat unit using Lances around the time where you've still got Axe users. She has to eat counter-attacks or attacked with a ranged weapon and have shitty hit rate and more effort to get her to do her job.

Why are you so hellbent on defending these stupid Armor Knights?

Should I just remove the armor knights from the list, since the idea behind them seems to be don't use them ever because lolarmor?

I'm aware we can have her use E staffs to get something that Saul does better eons ago. At least when Wendy promotes early, she's competent.

But fuck it, why argue? Everyone's just gonna say "lolarmor", and that's an automatic loss for the armors. If it won't call to bring them off the list, should I just drop them all into bottom?

If it keeps you from bringing up old tired arguments, sure why the hell not?

I'm aware that we can be masochists and baby Wendy to get something that several others (Alan, Lance, Shin for example) were at their start. Except that getting her there on an efficient playthrough is a bitch. Wendy's the epitome of inefficiency since she requires transportation to get to the enemy, good luck to be able to hit the enemy if she wants to avoid a counter attack and weakened enemies to avoid rape.

Are you really suggesting that Wendy is really comparable to the other AKs?

[grandjackal]

If it keeps you from bringing up old tired arguments, sure why the hell not?

I'm aware that we can be masochists and baby Wendy to get something that several others (Alan, Lance, Shin for example) were at their start. Except that getting her there on an efficient playthrough is a bitch. Wendy's the epitome of inefficiency since she requires transportation to get to the enemy, good luck to be able to hit the enemy if she wants to avoid a counter attack and weakened enemies to avoid rape.

Are you really suggesting that Wendy is really comparable to the other AKs?

Because it's totally less effort to train Sophia, amirite or amirite? At least on arrival, Wendy can actually survive some things. When Sophia screws up on the other hand, I have to go in complete lockdown, because absolutely NOTHING can target her as she will die horribly. By the time Sophia arrives, Wendy's at least usable. Apparently it's just gonna be blown off though, because "lolarmor" argument, but whatever.

As for comparing to the other AKs, apparently they're only a technical tier apart. Unless you're implying the AKs are actually usable and the idea of them sucking just because of move, I see no reason to see she doesn't. She has similar offense to Boris when she promotes at 10 as opposed to Boris at level 14. Granted she isn't as defensive, but I think that's sort of obvious.

Edited September 16, 2009 by Kuja

[Quasar]

Sophia doesn't get credit for the ring because she's forced? That's the stupidest reasoning I've ever heard. I assume Chad doesn't get anything for opening the two chests in Ch2 either because he's forced. Acually you have to go out of your way to open them so let's make it negative utility for him, right? If you want to disregard Sophia's wedding ring this is definitely not the reason to do so.

Kuja. Go read your own fucking ruleset. A character can be so bad he/she is negative utility. Babying Wendy for like ten fucking chapters accumulates such an amount of negative utility the tier she'd belong to woudn't fit on the fucking list because it'd be so low? I'm absolutely sick of your shit with the Armors. I'd rather see them removed from the list than have to deal with these same ridiculous arguments that have nothing to do with reality followed by you crying how no one takes them seriously. Instead of whining why don't you take a moment to consider why everyone thinks your arguments regarding Armors hold no water.

[Colonel M]

Sophia > Wendy. It's been agreed upon by everyone. Now, let's bury that hatchet.

[grandjackal]

Fine, I'll drop it, though I don't know where everyone got the delusion it's suddenly easier to train Sophia. I have to baby her too under worse circumstances, but whatever. She's not an armor, so I guess she automatically wins.

As for Sophia, I see no reason she should get credit for the ring. You're basically saying she should get credit for getting from point A to B.

[Quasar]

Moving any other unit from point A to B does not net you a Guiding Ring.

[grandjackal]

Could get us a Talisman, Silver Card, Silver Blade, Silence Staff, Boots...They don't die when looked at funny either.

All you need to do to get the guiding ring is move her to a space. This is not requiring to actually use her, just move her. It really is more just the mission of the map rather than something she actually does.

Does it matter anyways? Wendy<Sophia is done with.

[Quasar]

Sophia can also get those things. That's like saying "other units can gather things from towns". While it's definitely not false it would be ignoring that so can Sophia. Only Sophia can get the ring. Only Chad can loot chests until you receive keys.

Yes it does matter because you dropped Sophia for not getting the ring credit.

[Scarlet]

Everyone says "lolArmor" in FE6 because in FE6, armor knights simply suck. They've got horrible movement, don't double crap and on top of all of that, a high DEF stat isn't even that useful in this game because the enemies all fail horribly at hitting stuff; in fact, they fail at hitting so much that a good amount of Avd and some HP can basically keep you alive indefinitely (especially if you actually are able to force down your enemy to 0 Hit, which frequently happens with dudes like SteelLance!Wyverns), and the armor knights have fail Avd and far from enough DEF to get tink'd (except from maybe some ShortBow!Nomads in Sacae).

Training Sophia may not be easier than training Wendy, but keeping her safe is a lot easier, especially since her CON is so low that basically anyone can rescue her in case she misses. Wendy is a lot harder to rescue than Sophia. Also, Sophia can keep up more easily than Wendy at basically all times, even if the latter already is promoted by the time Sophia shows up (5 MOV with low movement cost > 5 MOV with high movement cost). And on top of that, we get something that at least is useful from promoting Sophia (staves can heal any unit), even if she then never ever bothers with combat again, while Wendy never actually becomes useful for fighting. Sure, Wendy can weaken or maybe finish of a thing or two occassionally, and becomes slightly more competent at that over time. However, the fact that you cannot safely expose her to enemies (while not having any other way to be useful) and that on top of that, even her counter attacks fail hard, never changes.

Edited September 16, 2009 by Raymond

[grandjackal]

Should I just put the armors in their own tier, if they're so unfixable in any way?

[grandjackal]

Should I just put the armors in their own tier, if they're so unfixable in any way?

[Scarlet]

Should I just put the armors in their own tier, if they're so unfixable in any way?

Nah. They're fine where they are right now; Bors and Barth aren't quite as bad as Wendy, as they still have similar issues, but at least a decent Atk and a good enough DEF to not instantly be owned by everything in sight. Also, Bors has earlygame going for him, while Barth has almost guaranteed invincibility against the nomads in Sacae (along with a way to actually counter their attacks in Enemy Phase), and probably near-invincibility against the pegasi in Ilia as well, so they're not quite as bad as Wendy.