Efficiency Tier List?

[Dat Nick]

I assume Chad doesn't get anything for opening the two chests in Ch3 either because he's forced. Acually you have to go out of your way to open them so let's make it negative utility for him, right? If you want to disregard Sophia's wedding ring this is definitely not the reason to do so.

Actually, this kind of begs a question stirring in my head for a while.

You know how Mekkah once said "I do not need to use Matthew in any way, shape, or form, to get Guy's Killing Edge in my inventory?"

Well, I don't need to use Chad in any way, shape, or form to get those chests. I can just keep him the hell away from enemies and have him zoom in on the chests when convenient. I'm really not sure if thieves should be getting credit for opening crap since it's really the same kind of deal as, say, Clarine recruiting Klein. Exceptions would be if a thief HAS to be levelled to steal something [i.e Matthew/silver card]

[dondon151]

If a thief doesn't open crap, then that's one less item for the team. I understand there's a fine line between getting credit for items and getting credit for other characters, but items and characters are different things in the eyes of the tier list - characters are virtually independent from one another (thus you can't really say Clarine = Clarine + Klein + Rutger because she gets both of them) whereas items are just resources.

[grandjackal]

Well Barth does have the advantage of basically being able to inta-promote (ok he needs a level, but it shouldn't be hard to obtain, especially with the strategy I will repeat over and over again for chapter 8). With it, the worst he will face is like 4-5 damage from steel axers on the isles. He may not be dodging, but come on...

EDIT: Sorry I was away before this response, seems the topic has shifted. Do continue on this.

Edited September 16, 2009 by Kuja

[Mekkah]

You know how Mekkah once said "I do not need to use Matthew in any way, shape, or form, to get Guy's Killing Edge in my inventory?"

Link me to the post where I said this. What I probably said was "I do not need to use Guy in any way, shape or form, to get his Killing Edge in my inventory. I have to talk to him with Matthew, and then I have it. So Matthew gets credit for it, not Guy."

[Quasar]

So by "I'll drop it" you meant you'll manage once every five posts to not mention Armors.

You can stop repeating your "strategy" now. Only person you can leave behind is Wendy and that's because she's the only one not having any use elsewhere. Barth cannot block the path and abuse levels for himself because he can be used for the rest of the chapter.

Promoting someone early isn't saying a whole lot by itself either. Everyone not yet promoted is able to promote early and thus become more effective for a while. Long term use is somewhat arguable per class and per case seeing how it ultimately slows down the unit's experience gain.

[Florete]

I believe the only units you can legitimately argue an early promotion for are the Fliers, because as Reikken mentioned, there's enough for all them, a case which doesn't happen for, IIRC, any other promotion item.

[Mekkah]

Orion's Bolt is another.

Also, the Ch13 Knight Crest isn't really viable to be assumed in any way whatsoever. First off, it makes the chapter itself a lot less efficient, since you limit Lalum/Elphin's revitalization abilities a lot (they now HAVE to go north, and really fast too...probably have to be ferried) and you have to get them close to danger. Then you will miss out on Percival's HM bonuses, and while you can say "lol god tiers are not always played", I say 80% of this is due to the existence of RNG screwage. Percival is as RNG proof as a rigged coin, so he fits into any team whatsoever.

Not that it helps much more than getting it after Ch15 anyway, since all the Knight Crest units are trash in Ch14 (desert), so all you get out of it is Ch14x (which might not have space for trash like Wendy) and Ch15.

[grandjackal]

We know of the whip deal. As for the Orion's Bolt, it's weird. Walt basically becomes a slightly weaker hitting Klein, Dorothy becomes a faster Klein with a pre-built support. It takes some effort to get Sue to level 10, but it'd be stupid not to promote her early. If it can happen during the isles, would be a blast. As for the knight's crest...Well it really depends on who benefits more. Allen and Lance could become better sooner. However, they're already god-like. Full offense supports with max avoid, weapon control already...Giving them an early promotion just seems needless when they're godlike as is. Treck and Noah are not quite to level, while Boris could be, and Barth just needs a level for an immediate boost. Mekkah said earlier that Lance would be level 12 by chapter 9 I think he said. Either way, Barth only needs a single level. Let's compare.

12/1 Lance

31 HP, 11 Str, 12 Skill, 15 Speed, 5 Luck, 10 Def, 4 Res

10/1 Barth

30 HP, 13 Str, 8 Skill, 8 Speed, 2 Luck, 18 Def, 4 Res

Both get axes.

Now this is with the isles in mind, yes? Well here's the thing, 13 Str is cutting it close but it's 2RKOing. 11 Str isn't, and Lance was doubling before anyways with his 13 speed (12 doubles just about everything on the isles save mercs, of which he wouldn't be doubling anyways). So Lance went from 2RKOing to 2RKOing. Barth went from 3RKOing to 2RKOing. So, it benefits Barth more than Lance. On top of this, Lance will not be using axes much anyways, as swords keep his avoid up far more. On the other hand, it gives Barth another weapon choice, which helps his durability and overall offense. So giving Barth weapon control seems more effective. By the time lances become heavy, you get another knight's crest, and can by the next. Lance and Allen should be near 20 anyways, of which they've benefitted from the faster leveling speed. They don't lose much other, and they'll have enough Str to put axes to great use anyways. In exchange, Barth has his weapons built up, so he is more versatile and hits harder with his various weapons.

Speaking of speed, going from doubling to doubling would be the waste of a speed wing. Barth went from doubled on occassion to not being doubled. worst damage he faces is 5 damage from steel axers. Everything else literally either can't hurt him or struggle to (hand axers). Well, that or they're mages, but there's like a grand total of 4 of them on the entire isle. Basically, all we did was give Lance 4 avoid, of which he already had a sizeable 56 ((13x2)+5+25) and had all the weapons he would need to have weapon control on the isles.

As you also notice, Lance is far more vulnerable. Barth might not be dodging often (lol, 18 avoid), but he's also not facing much that can actually hurt him. If they do, the worst is a 6RKO, which is pretty lol as is. Granted dodge is good, but your healers would like to do SOMETHING. This is ignoring the fact that he could take 2 attacks at worst case, and this would be enough for a vulnery to take care of.

So the argument one could use is "paladins are already godly as is". However, I'm guessing that won't fly...

I only brought this up because early promo was the topic.

[Colonel M]

Early promotion isn't terrible on Deak | Rutgar either. Gonzales also has the opportunity to do it as well (assuming the Level 12).

[dondon151]

I personally disagree somewhat with Quasar's last comment, as it's pretty obvious that Barth needs an early promotion much more than Lance does. The salient problem here is opportunity cost (the next one comes 13/15, and the one after that comes in 16).

Also, Grandjackal, comparing one unit at his relative best to another unit at his relative worst isn't an accurate representation of their entire existence.

[grandjackal]

I personally disagree somewhat with Quasar's last comment, as it's pretty obvious that Barth needs an early promotion much more than Lance does. The salient problem here is opportunity cost (the next one comes 13/15, and the one after that comes in 16).

Also, Grandjackal, comparing one unit at his relative best to another unit at his relative worst isn't an accurate representation of their entire existence.

Precisely why an early promo for knights shouldn't be a big deal, though Barth benefits the best, due to least effort to get there.

As a note, I am aware of that. I'm just showing that Barth benefits nicely from an early cresting for that moment of time. Well, moreso than other knights anyways.

Edited September 16, 2009 by Kuja

[Dr. Tarrasque]

Because it's totally less effort to train Sophia, amirite or amirite? At least on arrival, Wendy can actually survive some things. When Sophia screws up on the other hand, I have to go in complete lockdown, because absolutely NOTHING can target her as she will die horribly. By the time Sophia arrives, Wendy's at least usable. Apparently it's just gonna be blown off though, because "lolarmor" argument, but whatever.

Yes.

1. Enemies are higher level during Sophia's time, thus higher EXP gain and less kills/attacks necessary.

2. Better accuracy and damage. Wendy targets DEF, Sophia targets RES. They're both weak when they start but I think you can agree that it's easier to feed someone kills if their damage is superior.

3. While Wendy is able to survive, it's only a small number of enemies and again, enemies need to be weakened more than they have to be for Sophia. I don't think surviving 1 attack from minority helps much.

4. Level 10 promotion. Sophia gets E staves, not much but it's more good to you than Level 10/1 Wendy.

As for comparing to the other AKs, apparently they're only a technical tier apart. Unless you're implying the AKs are actually usable and the idea of them sucking just because of move, I see no reason to see she doesn't. She has similar offense to Boris when she promotes at 10 as opposed to Boris at level 14. Granted she isn't as defensive, but I think that's sort of obvious.

Bors earlier join time time makes it easier for him to be used and you know it. Not to mention that he can double a few soldiers in the early chapters. Only enemies I can see Wendy doubling are LolArmors and perhaps Steel Lance Pegs but that's only after promotion (which is a bitch).

I know you already dropped down on this argument but it's starting to seem necessary to make this shit sink in.

Edited September 16, 2009 by ?!

[Colonel M]

Hm... a random question that I'd like an answer to: when would you say Sue is Level 12? I might know a way to get her over Dorothy.

[grandjackal]

Since you wanna bring it up for probably the third or fourth time...

1. Enemies are higher level during Sophia's time, thus higher EXP gain and less kills/attacks necessary.

Well that much is true...

2. Better accuracy and damage. Wendy targets DEF, Sophia targets RES. They're both weak when they start but I think you can agree that it's easier to feed someone kills if their damage is superior.

Faster and luckier enemies at her time. A more accurate weapon she may have, but as you have noted there ARE things that Wendy can survive (one of them being mercs, for the WTA) so she has melee as well, iron lance only 5 less than Flux. Then Javelin for everything else, yes though less accurate gives her a secondary option as melee for Sophia=death. But the thing is she may have a more accurate weapon, but enemies are dodgier at her time.

3. While Wendy is able to survive, it's only a small number of enemies and again, enemies need to be weakened more than they have to be for Sophia. I don't think surviving 1 attack from minority helps much.

It's enough that melee at times is an option, meaning I have to protect her less. Also means I can expose her more, while Sophia I can't expose at any point of her existence ever.

4. Level 10 promotion. Sophia gets E staves, not much but it's more good to you than Level 10/1 Wendy.

Really depends when Wendy promotes. She's got plenty of time prior to Sophia showing up, of which a 10/1 Wendy is leagues better than a level 1 Sophia.

Bors earlier join time time makes it easier for him to be used and you know it. Not to mention that he can double a few soldiers in the early chapters. Only enemies I can see Wendy doubling are LolArmors and perhaps Steel Lance Pegs but that's only after promotion (which is a bitch).

I know you already dropped down on this argument but it's starting to seem necessary to make this shit sink in.

Apparently not, since eveyrone says Boris's earlygame sucks despite being forced.

I'm not disputing it hard to train Wendy, just far harder to train Sophia.

Hm... a random question that I'd like an answer to: when would you say Sue is Level 12? I might know a way to get her over Dorothy.

Dorothy can early promote to become superior to Klein, you'd be hard pressed, son...

Edited September 16, 2009 by Kuja

[Colonel M]

Hm... a random question that I'd like an answer to: when would you say Sue is Level 12? I might know a way to get her over Dorothy.

Dorothy can early promote to become superior to Klein, you'd be hard pressed, son...

http://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=14515&view=findpost&p=578519

Granted she'll be a level or two higher, but then again... I don't think Dorothy is going to win THAT well.

[Dat Nick]

You know how Mekkah once said "I do not need to use Matthew in any way, shape, or form, to get Guy's Killing Edge in my inventory?"

Link me to the post where I said this. What I probably said was "I do not need to use Guy in any way, shape or form, to get his Killing Edge in my inventory. I have to talk to him with Matthew, and then I have it. So Matthew gets credit for it, not Guy."

youre right, I misread that

i dont 100% agree with it but whatever

[dondon151]

Don't forget that Sophia can also use Nosferatu...

11/1 Sophia has on average 8 AS with Nosferatu. Logically, if 14 AS is a doubling benchmark, then those enemies can't double Sophia.

[grandjackal]

Hm... a random question that I'd like an answer to: when would you say Sue is Level 12? I might know a way to get her over Dorothy.

Dorothy can early promote to become superior to Klein, you'd be hard pressed, son...

http://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=14515&view=findpost&p=578519

Granted she'll be a level or two higher, but then again... I don't think Dorothy is going to win THAT well.

*ahem* You don't get a Bolt until 10 Bartre or 11 Echidna (though in all fairness, you're able to get 2 from village and Klein's unit safety). By the time you get it, axers are starting to pack up.

Speaking of Barth though...He's incredibly durable. On promotion he gets axes. He has too little crit. So...who wants to give him the Devil Axe!? : D

Edited September 16, 2009 by Kuja

[Colonel M]

Hm... a random question that I'd like an answer to: when would you say Sue is Level 12? I might know a way to get her over Dorothy.

Dorothy can early promote to become superior to Klein, you'd be hard pressed, son...

http://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=14515&view=findpost&p=578519

Granted she'll be a level or two higher, but then again... I don't think Dorothy is going to win THAT well.

*ahem* You don't get a Bolt until 10 Bartre or 11 Echidna (though in all fairness, you're able to get 2 from village and Klein's unit safety). By the time you get it, axers are starting to pack up.

Speaking of Barth though...He's incredibly durable. On promotion he gets axes. He has too little crit. So...who wants to give him the Devil Axe!? : D

Nice to dodge the point. Nevermind that comparison was C12 in the first place. There are still axe users in C14 (she's not going anywhere so ssticking behind is the strategy to take) and in C12 they still exist. I won't press much on 12X due to lack of unit slots.

[grandjackal]

Hm... a random question that I'd like an answer to: when would you say Sue is Level 12? I might know a way to get her over Dorothy.

Dorothy can early promote to become superior to Klein, you'd be hard pressed, son...

http://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=14515&view=findpost&p=578519

Granted she'll be a level or two higher, but then again... I don't think Dorothy is going to win THAT well.

*ahem* You don't get a Bolt until 10 Bartre or 11 Echidna (though in all fairness, you're able to get 2 from village and Klein's unit safety). By the time you get it, axers are starting to pack up.

Speaking of Barth though...He's incredibly durable. On promotion he gets axes. He has too little crit. So...who wants to give him the Devil Axe!? : D

Nice to dodge the point. Nevermind that comparison was C12 in the first place. There are still axe users in C14 (she's not going anywhere so ssticking behind is the strategy to take) and in C12 they still exist. I won't press much on 12X due to lack of unit slots.

Errr, whoops ^^;; pardon my hastiness

[dondon151]

Why the hell would Barth want the Devil Axe

I mean, atrocious hit rate aside, damaging yourself isn't mitigated by being durable, as there's still the issue of not actually doing damage to your opponent and then requiring a heal.

[grandjackal]

Why the hell would Barth want the Devil Axe

I mean, atrocious hit rate aside, damaging yourself isn't mitigated by being durable, as there's still the issue of not actually doing damage to your opponent and then requiring a heal.

I said that mainly for the lulz ;;>> Do refresh my memory though, doesn't the devil axe build weapon rank crazy fast in this game?

[Fei Mao]

Why the hell would Barth want the Devil Axe

I mean, atrocious hit rate aside, damaging yourself isn't mitigated by being durable, as there's still the issue of not actually doing damage to your opponent and then requiring a heal.

I said that mainly for the lulz ;;>> Do refresh my memory though, doesn't the devil axe build weapon rank crazy fast in this game?

Yes

[Quasar]

I don't buy this "Barth benefits the most so he always gets the KC." thing. There are better choices for overall better team efficiency than promoting him early but moreover it's a single extremely contested resource so it's easy to agree that no one should be assumed to get it.

See the arrow guard for Fliers. You can't argue that to anyone in particular because no one has priority over others for it. Obviously using it on a Pegasi makes the Pegasi a lot more durable than giving it to already-pretty-sturdy Miredy but Miredy becomes invulnerable and benefits the team much more that way. This should sound familiar.

Also dondon I think you misunderstood what I meant. I was gunning for "pre-promoted Barth > not prepromoted unit X" is a flawed comparison as in it's not saying a whole lot that (only) Barth can promote early. It doesn't get a whole lot better if you go "pre-promoted Barth > prepromoted unit Y". The least you could do in those cases is give another contested resource (Stat Booster) of their choice to the prepromoted unit.

I still don't see any valid reason for disregarding Sophia's ring. And hey thanks for brining up the flier promotion item, I had completely forgotten that Thany's leveling rate comparable to Lance was never explained when he went over Lot.

[Dat Nick]

see jackal what the fuck did I tell you over IM

I had completely forgotten that Thany's leveling rate comparable to Lance was never explained when he went over Lot.

You're proposing she should go down...? I think Upper Mid above Lot is ridiculous as Thany has either offense or durability issues to worry about [Offense throughout most of her time being used, durability the whole game] so I concur, Thany should move down.