Efficiency Tier List?

[Colonel M]

People actually want knight crests, though. And if Barth can promote early, so can Wolt.

Except Wolt here doesn't gain anything stellar from promoting. Barth at least can be a wall. Not a very good wall, but a wall nevertheless. All Wolt gains is... Bows. Though people want Knights Crests, keep in mind that most of them have to wait for a later promotion anyway and are usually stable despite being locked to Level 20.

[Reikken]

Except Wolt here doesn't gain anything stellar from promoting. Barth at least can be a wall. Not a very good wall, but a wall nevertheless. All Wolt gains is... Bows. Though people want Knights Crests, keep in mind that most of them have to wait for a later promotion anyway and are usually stable despite being locked to Level 20.

Giving Barth an early promotion means...your first cavalier has to wait until ch 15 instead of being able to promote whenever he wants to, and the second one has to wait until the end of ch 16, almost 2 full chapters later than usual. That's quite the negative side affect. Wolt, however, has no issues at all with promotion items.

I'm not saying there's a dire need for bows; they're just far from worst, especially considering how many bow users there are.

Which weapon is the worst? Well they're all pretty balanced, but if you were to be stuck with just one, I'd peg sword as the worst. Lances are overall the most common on the enemy and by far the most common on the most threatening enemies, and swords also lack any kind of ranged attacking options. And, also important, we have an overabundance of sword users as it is.

you got Shin and Klein...Do you really need more than 1 or 2 archers?

1- They don't exist early on.

2- Neither is even close to guaranteed. Klein isn't high, and Shin may be passed over simply because you want to go Ilia and don't want to use the pegs, in addition all the usual reasons.

3- That's still only one (or maybe two) other bow user.

Edited June 22, 2009 by Reikken

[dondon151]

How did you get "dilly-dallying for 80 turns on one map so Echidna and Geese can support" out of "slowing down to ensure the safety of our units?" I never said that we won't aim to complete chapters speedily, but we're certainly not going to take any risks to do so like we may in ranked, i.e, safety prioritizes over speed.

I didn't say the "for 80 turns on one map so Echidna and Geese can support" part. No idea where you got that from.

In ranked you don't have to take risks to complete chapters speedily. I don't know what made you think that either. It doesn't matter ranked or unranked: there is still a strict timetable.

[Colonel M]

Giving Barth an early promotion means...your first cavalier has to wait until ch 15 instead of being able to promote whenever he wants to, and the second one has to wait until the end of ch 16, almost 2 full chapters later than usual. That's quite the negative side affect. Wolt, however, has no issues at all with promotion items.

The problem is if you have a 3rd Cavalier, this argument is a bit moot. Take Hero Crest for example. MANY units want it and many can get it. Some argue that Bartre Gonzales = Echinda Gonzales, but usually I say Echinda Gonzales > Bartre Gonzales because the former doesn't mind the wait as much and can usually get the better stats.

Though I understand Barth taking the Knight Crest as a slight negative, that doesn't mean that Walt is out of the question for his promotion item neither. First off, there is Shin. I can easily use both Tate and Shin and then a little Thany if you want to go to Ilia so bad. Second, I could always sell the Orion's Bolt for more cash, which is always welcome to Roy and co.'s pockets.

[dondon151]

I strongly disagree. Why do people keep saying this? Counterattacking isn't everything. Indeed, I don't even want Wolt counterattacking even if he could. Enemy phase doesn't work like player phase. Everyone doesn't get a turn. The only ones who attack are the ones who get attacked. I want my strong units like Lance and Deak doing the counterattacking. Why would I want to waste it on Wolt (or Barth or anyone else whose offense sucks, like Clarine <--- the reason I don't think she belongs in top tier. Good defense is much less impressive when I don't want to use it if I can help it.)?

Enemy phase is where most of the combat happens. I'd say that most of the time, the point of player phase is to position your units for enemy phase. Considering how many enemies in FE's AI are programmed to attack once PC units enter their range, being able to counterattack is big.

The second part of this excerpt saying that only good units should counterattack resembles the idea that only good units should be used. Then I promulgate the ridiculous proposition that in all future debates regarding the tier list, only the top 10 combat units on the tier list are allowed to have an enemy phase. Everyone else can suck it and group into a giant bottom tier.

Basically what I understand from this is that not only does Wolt have no counterattack potential at all, but he also fails so much that even if he had counterattack potential, it should never be used.

That "o noz, I can't counterattack melee" is not a big deal at all. This isn't FE7 where you have hordes of garbage units thrown at you who die on the counterattack no matter who does the counterattacking. The one who's counterattacking matters, and it matters a lot.

Barth's opportunity cost for counterattacking is that some other unit like Lance can do it better. However, Barth can still make up for part of that opportunity cost (i.e. a normal profit). Wolt has the same opportunity cost, except he has zero normal profit.

AND IN RETURN for choosing bows, you get... a bow user. Someone to use all those brave, killer, silver, whatever bows that you have lying around, and get massive bonus damage on winged opponents, and good ranged offense. Ranged is good for not taking counterattacks, not getting in the way of melee attackers, not exposing yourself as much or at all when you go to attack, etc. Also you're using a less-used promotion item. No having to wait until ch 16x to be promoted.

But Wolt's ranged offense with bows is similar to that of a higher tiered character holding a Hand Axe or a Javelin without all of the benefits of making up that opportunity cost of counterattacking. This also means that Wolt not getting in the way of melee attackers is not a big deal because so many others boast that ability as well. Doing damage to fliers is not particularly big in Wolt's availability advantage (whoo 2 WKs in chapter 7). And by the time cooler bows roll around, Wolt will have competition for them from better bow users.

I don't buy the swords being worse than bows thing either. You implied earlier that it's not good for PC units to be like enemy units, which I immediately countered by pointing out that you need to be as similar to enemy units as possible in order to counterattack them. Like I said before, 1 range > 2 range among enemies locked to either one, so it follows that swords have a huge win on enemy phase. Bows win slightly on player phase because they don't have to take a counter and don't block a 1 range space.

By the way, bows not taking a counter on player phase isn't that special. Aside from the plethora of 1-2 range PCs in this game, killer weapons also let units attack without being countered on player phase.

[Reikken]

The problem is if you have a 3rd Cavalier, this argument is a bit moot.

Uh no... A third cavalier is actually 100% irrelevant.

Normally (without Barth):

1st cav promotes whenever.

2nd cav promotes at start of ch 15, when you get the second crest

3rd cav promotes at end of 16

4th-9000th cav/knight promotes at end of 16

With Barth eating a crest:

1st cav promotes at start of ch 15

2nd cav promotes at end of 16

3rd cav promotes at end of 16

4th-9000th cav/knight promotes at end of 16

Though I understand Barth taking the Knight Crest as a slight negative, that doesn't mean that Walt is out of the question for his promotion item neither. First off, there is Shin. I can easily use both Tate and Shin and then a little Thany if you want to go to Ilia so bad. Second, I could always sell the Orion's Bolt for more cash, which is always welcome to Roy and co.'s pockets.

Shin is one unit. That leaves you with another bolt.

Yes, cash. Yaye 5k. Barth gets a 5-10k advantage by staying unpromoted forever. Go him.

Edited June 22, 2009 by Reikken

[Colonel M]

Uh no... A third cavalier is actually 100% irrelevant.

Normally (without Barth):

1st cav promotes whenever.

2nd cav promotes at start of ch 15, when you get the second crest

3rd cav promotes at end of 16

4th-9000th cav/knight promotes at end of 16

With Barth eating a crest:

1st cav promotes at start of ch 15

2nd cav promotes at end of 16

3rd cav promotes at end of 16

4th-9000th cav/knight promotes at end of 16

Though the Crest was a minor argument, promoted Wolt still cannot compete to that of promoted Barth anyway. You also notice that the seperation of the second and third Cav is barely worth mentioning, so the worst that is happening here is stealing one Cavalier's promotion. Either way, both are fighting for same crest and the other has to wait.

Also, it's actually the end of Ch 15 because you don't recieve it until after completing the Chapter.

Shin is one unit. That leaves you with another bolt.

Yes, cash. Yaye 5k. Barth gets a 5-10k advantage by staying unpromoted forever. Go him.

5K cash can buy a lot of weapons, or with a Silver Card a useful promotion item such as Hero Crest. That's still a minor disadvantage. And, at least Barth here can be somewhat useful in the Western Isles despite not promoting (not to the point of godmoding, but he can at least take a hit) and Mercs are still relevant in the chapters. There's also the Axereaver that comes around a bit later.

Edited June 22, 2009 by Colonel M

[Dat Nick]

Bows better than swords? That depends on which part of the game we're talking about. If it's the early-midgame axe flood I'd prefer swords. When the lances start popping out everywhere, I'll take a bow anyday [FE6 enemies can still hit pretty friggin hard. See those wyvern lords with max strength and silver lances? I'd rather not take a counter from that, kthx]

[A2ZOMG]

There are so many things wrong with that argument it's not even funny. First off, you couldn't possibly pick a worse weapon choice than Bows. Secondly, Barth might not be accurate, but at least he's not a total offensive pussy like Walt is. Walt can't counter, and his damage output sucks donkey wang. Barth can actually counter, and thus has more opportunities to attack than Wolt, thus land more damage and do better offensively overall.

Well, what Reikken said about not taking counters being important.

You have enough melee units in this game to block of your not-taking-counters ppl almost all the time, and the point is you want them to advance anyway. Walt doesn't get in the way with whatever a Melee unit wants to do, so when he does damage, it's always in addition to anything a Melee unit does. This is quite helpful at times, as even a few points of damage from an iron bow can occasionally grant an extra kill.

Thirdly, Barth has some amazing tank abilities, which allows him to counter for even longer before needing to heal. Wolt cannot possibly compare.

Eh? I think not. Barth gets doubled a lot more, and his evade is much worse. His defense is only good against sword users that don't have armorslayers. Oh yes, and he gets doubled by armorslayers and onerounded. And magic pretty much rapes him in the ass since he's always getting doubled, and he has zero evade and res.

Fourthly, Wolt supporting Marcus is practically a null factor, once you consider A. Their severe move diference, B. The fact Marcus is not seeing past earlygame as Zealot is more than easily replacing him, and C. That defense does jack shit for an archer when he wants offense, IcexIce is not helping Wolt and it's not saving Marcus. Barth on the other hand has a bunch of supporters that would kill to suck his dick, as they have no one else. One of these people is Lillina, who would LOVE the defensive boost, and enjoys having a bodyguard around.

Firstoff, Lilina is garbage. Marcus on the other hand is an essential unit earlygame.

Zealot isn't really replacing Marcus...he doesn't pwn by enough to guarantee use beyond chapter 7.

Also, the move difference is really not that bad, since you don't always want to rush forward, since even a tank like Marcus may want to avoid unnecessary counters. Most importantly, Wolt doesn't get in the way of Marcus when he does stuff. By supporting Wolt, you get to advance faster since Marcus really wants that def bonus to tank stuff. Both also really want the hit bonus, since hitting enemies is probably one of the biggest issues in this game after doing enough damage to them.

Also, chapter 1 is too good for Wolt. Marcus does so much damage to fighters that Wolt finishes them all off easily after Marcus does his thing. It's quite possible Wolt can get a level lead simply because he's helping Marcus clear out enemies better than your other units in the sense he's not getting in the way.

Finally, I'd say Wolt is dependent on a tank to have his offense against Wyverns, since he's certainly not gonna be able to take them on himself. Who's one of your best physical tanks? Thought so.

Marcus earlygame. Deak lategame, and Lot comes pretty close after Deak. Barth can't even tank over half the time since he gets doubled, making him completely unsafe against anything he's weak against that's almost always mixed in with the stuff he wants to tank.

On chapter 7, level 9 Steel bow Walt vs a Wyvern

Walt does 21! damage vs a Wyvern and has about 73 hit on them with Steel factoring avoid and B Marcus. 73 hit isn't amazing, but that's quite good considering that massive damage. Zealot does like only double 6s with an iron axe. Seriously, that's pretty pwn. A Wyvern that takes a hit from that can be finished off in just two rounds. That's awesome, since you don't want those to be alive very long.

Edited June 22, 2009 by A2ZOMG

[Quasar]

Okay, this is getting out of hand. You can't just erase all supports because they're not optimal. IcexIce not that awesome? If you really want to think it's impossible to break Roy-Lance-Alan apart then Marcus-Wolt is better than nothing, and that's not arguable.

With C Wolt Zealot isn't better than Marcus at join. By the time Zealot has a slight (defensive) advantage it's already pretty damn late in the game. Too late to make up for Marcus' earlygame.

[Dat Nick]

Never mind that the triangle still entitles Wolt to a C support.

[Colonel M]

C Roy only tosses Avoid to him and Walt. It's almost as useless as C Marcus for Roy.

[Dat Nick]

You forget. The Wolt support is fast. Pretty damn fast. As in he'll have C Wolt while axemen are still common. The 5 avo that Wolt gives Roy is actually meaningful since Wolt's giving it to Roy at a time where Roy actually needs it.

Sure, it benefits Roy more than it does Wolt. But it's anything but useless.

[Colonel M]

Again, he could've supported Marcus and yield the same result as well. I'd barely consider it being "helpful" when Allan and Lance are making his Avoid rate jump pretty high already on top of Atk, which Roy likes to have earlygame and later on. The C slot would've been better for someone like Cecilia since it matches a bit better affinity-wise.

[grandjackal]

To those trying to count the WaltxMarcus support, explain to me why you're having Marcus hang back with him when he's got better stuff to do?

[Dat Nick]

Again, he could've supported Marcus and yield the same result as well.

Roy has enough move gaps in his supports to deal with, tyvm.

I'd barely consider it being "helpful" when Allan and Lance are making his Avoid rate jump pretty high already on top of Atk

hm? Since when was more avo a bad thing? When Roy's dealing with 40-ish hit rates, Wolt's making that sink to 35. That's dropping 32 real to 24 real. Considering that Roy needs all the avo he can get against the axe guys as one hit will cripple him fairly hard, Wolt is helping him.

making his Avoid rate jump pretty high already on top of Atk, which Roy likes to have earlygame and later on.

Okay...why bring up atk? The benefits of the C Wolt support don't intertwine at all with the cav supports.

The C slot would've been better for someone like Cecilia since it matches a bit better affinity-wise.

Are we really going to wait that much longer, at which point the avo won't benefit Roy anymore since he's too busy getting hit by the WTD, and ohnoes 1 atk, and ANOTHER move gap to deal with in Roy's supports? I'd much rather just take the 5 avo at the point where it actually helps.

[Colonel M]

How is the extra 5 Avoid helpful though? If anything, it's marginal or not enough to really matter a whole lot. If it's against Axemen, he's already seeing low hit rates when throwing on the Sword anyway. If he waits for Cecilia, at least it's +1 Atk that he could've gotten.

Edited June 22, 2009 by Colonel M

[Quasar]

To those trying to count the WaltxMarcus support, explain to me why you're having Marcus hang back with him when he's got better stuff to do?

Uh.. such as what? This is FE6 and Marcus isn't Seth. He's not going to rush ahead and solo a map. If your precious Roy triangle is being worked on as well the whole damn team is moving at Roy's pace anyway.

[Dat Nick]

How is the extra 5 Avoid helpful though?

I just explained why the avoid where Wolt gives it is actually helpful.

If it's against Axemen, he's already seeing low hit rates when throwing on the Sword anyway.

They're not 0% hit rates. Which means they can afford to be lower. Roy would appreciate the help as he'd REALLY prefer not to run the risk of getting hit as one hit will damn near kill him.

If he waits for Cecilia, at least it's +1 Atk that he could've gotten.

Again, whoopdedoo, 1 atk, all for waiting for a LOT more chapters than the Wolt support he could have gotten right there, with the added bonus of giving Roy ANOTHER move gap to deal with in his supports. 5 avo in the Western Isles when it does matter>>>>>>>>>1 atk when it doesn't matter.

[Colonel M]

I just explained why the avoid where Wolt gives it is actually helpful.

They're not 0% hit rates. Which means they can afford to be lower. Roy would appreciate the help as he'd REALLY prefer not to run the risk of getting hit as one hit will damn near kill him.

...Uh... does he ever see 40-ish Hit rates that aren't something freaking high like Mercs though? I need some examples, not some "with 40-ish Hit rates".

Again, whoopdedoo, 1 atk, all for waiting for a LOT more chapters than the Wolt support he could have gotten right there, with the added bonus of giving Roy ANOTHER move gap to deal with in his supports. 5 avo in the Western Isles when it does matter>>>>>>>>>1 atk when it doesn't matter.

Wolt would've been likely dead anyhow. If we want to talk about shit characters being used, I could field someone useless like Lilina and at least gain +1 in Atk. Marcus, as said, is still as fast as the Walt support and him shortening his movement isn't a major penalty because he's not LEEROY JENKINS-ing through chapters anyhow. Cecilia is a fairly quick support anyhow and she can last longer than Walt can (unless we seriously train the living daylights out of him). Hell C Lalum offers Crit and Avoid.

[Dat Nick]

...Uh... does he ever see 40-ish Hit rates that aren't something freaking high like Mercs though? I need some examples, not some "with 40-ish Hit rates".

of course he does. WTA doesn't mean you never get hit, you know. Anyway, fighters have 76 hit with steel, B Alan, B Lance nets 20 avo, 15 from WTA, 31 base...they have about 15 displayed on him which is good, sure, but 10 displayed is still better.

Wolt would've been likely dead anyhow. If we want to talk about shit characters being used, I could field someone useless like Lilina and at least gain +1 in Atk.

We're talking about Wolt so we're assuming Wolt is in play, which means he has no excuse not to have C Roy.

Marcus, as said, is still as fast as the Walt support and him shortening his movement isn't a major penalty because he's not LEEROY JENKINS-ing through chapters anyhow.

If we're still fielding Marcus, he's probably doing just that. If we need an uberunit by the western isles, we pick up Zealot.

Cecilia is a fairly quick support anyhow and she can last longer than Walt can

The issue with Cecilia isn't the speed, it's the starting time of the support, which means Roy has to withold good bonuses that he can get now for trivial ones that he can get later.

Hell C Lalum offers Crit and Avoid.

And it's also a 1+1 which means it's likely to come even later than the Cecilia support.

Edited June 22, 2009 by GreenHairedDraco

[Colonel M]

of course he does. WTA doesn't mean you never get hit, you know. Anyway, fighters have 76 hit with steel, B Alan, B Lance nets 20 avo, 15 from WTA, 31 base...they have about 15 displayed on him which is good, sure, but 10 displayed is still better.

In real hit terms, we go from 5 to 2. That's not a whole lot tbh.

We're talking about Wolt so we're assuming Wolt is in play, which means he has no excuse not to have C Roy.

K, but Marcus...

If we're still fielding Marcus, he's probably doing just that. If we need an uberunit by the western isles, we pick up Zealot.

Marcus is just being a weakener. Him standing near Roy isn't being detrimental by a whole lot since we're advancing a bit slower in the beginning of the game.

The issue with Cecilia isn't the speed, it's the starting time of the support, which means Roy has to withold good bonuses that he can get now for trivial ones that he can get later.

Though in comparison to Wolt, Lilina, and other garbage, Cecilia here matches the affinity the best. Even though he has to wait for it, that's +2 Atk (when he doubles upon promotion) and same Avoid compared to Wolt's +5 Avoid.

And it's also a 1+1 which means it's likely to come even later than the Cecilia support.

Given how much time we have to burn, I think C is likely in a couple chapters. Her not coming into 12X seems to be fine, but it's likely happening slightly before Cecilia since, remember, 1+1 is more reasonable with the ginormous maps.

[Dat Nick]

In real hit terms, we go from 5 to 2. That's not a whole lot tbh.

It's more insurance. It's not a negative, therefore it's helping. And it also helps against things he doesn't avo tank well like archers and crap.

K, but Marcus...

What about Marcus? Zealot exists now. Marcus is long gone.

Marcus is just being a weakener. Him standing near Roy isn't being detrimental by a whole lot since we're advancing a bit slower in the beginning of the game.

okay

that still doesn't explain why the hell we're fielding Marcus over Zealot when his stats are worse than Zealot in every parameter

Though in comparison to Wolt, Lilina, and other garbage, Cecilia here matches the affinity the best.

Who cares if she matches it best? The point to be taken is the bonuses and Cecilia gives very trivial boosts compared to Wolt, wow a grand total of 1 atk. This will not help Roy. At all.

Even though he has to wait for it, that's +2 Atk (when he doubles upon promotion) and same Avoid compared to Wolt's +5 Avoid.

I never said Cecilia's boosts weren't better.

What I said is that they're trivially better. 1 Atk will help Roy one round a grand total of nothing he didn't before. Then you factor in that Cecilia is a utility unit with staves and all that, she has better things to do to drag Roy around on a leash when he's already stuck glued to Alan and Lance, who are also giving him move gaps.

Given how much time we have to burn, I think C is likely in a couple chapters.

k

that's still much later than when Roy can get C Wolt, and by the time 12x is through, oops, where did all the axes go?

[Colonel M]

It's more insurance. It's not a negative, therefore it's helping. And it also helps against things he doesn't avo tank well like archers and crap.

...Okay. But no statistics.

What about Marcus? Zealot exists now. Marcus is long gone.

Marcus existed on C1-7. Though we're discussing if Wolt carries on, then the argument is slightly valid. Marcus can last at least until Western Isles.

okay

that still doesn't explain why the hell we're fielding Marcus over Zealot when his stats are worse than Zealot in every parameter

Mentioning Wolt wasn't much better in this case then, wasn't it? I know Zealot's stats > Marcus's stats. One doesn't have to tell me that. I'm even debating him, I should know this. No offense or anything.

Who cares if she matches it best? The point to be taken is the bonuses and Cecilia gives very trivial boosts compared to Wolt, wow a grand total of 1 atk. This will not help Roy. At all.

Again, that's still +2 Atk when he doubles, which will likely happen once he powerlevels upon promotion. Until then yes... it barely matters.

I never said Cecilia's boosts weren't better.

What I said is that they're trivially better. 1 Atk will help Roy one round a grand total of nothing he didn't before. Then you factor in that Cecilia is a utility unit with staves and all that, she has better things to do to drag Roy around on a leash when he's already stuck glued to Alan and Lance, who are also giving him move gaps.

Now, reverse logic on Roy gaining +5 Avoid not helping him either. At least, trivially.

k

that's still much later than when Roy can get C Wolt, and by the time 12x is through, oops, where did all the axes go?

There's still Axe units beyond that. C14 has all the Brigands and Berserkers, remember?

[Mekkah]

wtf is this nitpicking about. Seriously? Who cares about such trivial details as who is getting which _C support_?