Efficiency Tier List?

[grandjackal]

Ward is way too high.

Using him is counterproductive in this game. He gets doubled by numerous enemies, and his HP disappears quickly when he takes hits due to low defenses. His hit is the worst of your units for quite some time before his skill and luck growths kick in. And even after those do kick in, he still is horrible at taking hits since he's always getting doubled.

And he's generally not getting those special axes that Lot is getting. He's basically an armor without the defense.

I believe Mekkah's thoughts had risen him. I believe it was due to being a great benefactor support-wise, and that major lance existence helps his evade with his supports. Axes on the islands are inaccurate, and they generally don't double him with their 7 general AS.

However, everything after that is a bit hazy. Mekkah's more in the know about it. If he drops by, I know he's got good reasons as to why Ward's so high.

[Mekkah]

Ward is pretty bad at first, yes, but I don't think a lot of that counts against him. First off, he is forced between Ch2 and Ch5, which is when his performance is also the relative worst, so even if he's doing nothing but casting Hand Axes to the wind you can't really give him negative points for that. Then Ch6 comes with the unit prep menu, and in the meanwhile Ward built up a C with Dieck and Lot with his sexy Fire affinity.

6/0 Ward - C Lot, C Dieck

Iron Axe: 19.0 atk, 5.8 AS, 82.3 hit, 9.2 crit - - 27.4 avo, 31.0 hp, 5.2 def, 1.2 res, 10.8 critavo

He (or Lot, I guess) can Hammer Knights, or at least soften them up even with 1-2 range. He ORKOs Soldiers (the majority of this map), he leaves Mages with single-digit HP...only Mercs are an issue, but they're in the minority.

Ch7 is a bit tougher on him due to Cavaliers with Steel Swords, though if they dare to use Javelin he can OHKO with Halberd. Wyverns leave Ward with 13 hp, which is still enough to survive another hit from about anything except another Steel Lance, which is more than most of your dudes can say.

And all in the meanwhile, he is giving Fire bonuses to Dieck/Lot.

And he's generally not getting those special axes that Lot is getting.

Either he or Lot uses them, and the moment you get more they can both use them. "Who gets what" is such ancient tier debating. You're supposed to weigh the consequences of both.

Anyway, if Lot isn't in play, Ward has a monopoly on those. Granted, he'll also lose a good support option, though that can be compensated with Echidna later.

Ch8 is like Ch6 for Ward, except with huger numbers, mostly in his favor. Western Isles he's WTN most of the time, sure, he's doing worse than sword people here, though there's still bow and lance users he's cool against.

I really don't see him being a detriment. At least, not so much that he should drop. Look at the people he's above.

Fa - she's only available from Ch16 and on, which is one chapter before Ward promotes. Fa does better against magic defensively, and her hit is significantly higher, but she has no 1-2 range, her durability takes a little while to pick up, and Ward's supports are a lot better.

Others:

Hugh joins when Ward is about to promote through the Secret Shop Hero Crest. Let's just make Hugh do the same.

15/1 Hugh

Aircalibur: 25.0 atk, 13.0 AS, 115.8 hit, 6.3 crit - - 36.0 avo, 30.0 hp, 11.0 def, 11.0 res, 10.0 critavo

On Flier: 41.0 atk

20/1 Ward (B Dieck, B Lot)

Killer Axe: 33.9 atk, 10.6 AS, 109.0 hit, 51.8 crit - - 53.3 avo, 49.5 hp, 13.4 def, 2.9 res, 22.1 critavo

Hand Axe: 29.9 atk, 10.6 AS, 94.0 hit, 21.8 crit

Iron Bow: 28.9 atk, 10.6 AS, 124.0 hit

On Flier: 40.9 atk

For other parameters, Ward benefits supporters with hax bonuses that are around on the frontline a lot, while Hugh has staves. We'll cancel that out for the time being. Note that Ward has Echidna for a back-up partner if one of these is not in play or full or whatever.

I thought Hugh would get utterly shitfaced, but it's not as bad as I thought. Hugh has a 2.6 AS win. Here's a list of what that does for him:

Samples from 16x:

- Hugh would avoid being doubled by two Snipers (14 and 15 Spd), but they lose 2 AS from Longbow.

- Hugh avoids being doubled by four Mercs (14 and 15 AS)

- Hugh avoids being doubled by one Paladin (14 AS), Ward is shaky on not being doubled by that

- Hugh doubles Cavaliers with Steel Lance equipped (11, 12 or 13 Spd, lose 4 AS). There's some with Axereavers (lose only 2 AS), but Ward doesn't like those anyway. If they go Javelin, his advantage is gone.

- Hugh doubles Steel Bow Archers (10 Spd, -2 from Steel Bow)

- Hugh avoids being doubled by Windam (14 AS)

Interestingly, Ward can take a Speedwing pretty easily in this context, since Hugh is so damn expensive, and on one of the routes on the Western Isles he and Lot are the sole people who can get those Speedwings. That cuts Hugh's Spd win to less than half a point, and since they're extremely borderline on getting doubled or doubling, that is very significant. In addition, there's Halberd to consider for the horse enemies. And both double Knights, and both single practically everything else.

Overall, the AS advantage is minimal. Ward's other leads (~8 atk, up to about ~40 crit) speak for themselves. He barely loses hit in Killer vs Aircalibur, but if hit is an issue he can switch to Iron Bow. Hugh has 1~2 range, but Ward can do that with Hand Axe, or Iron Bow can just do 2, and eventually he will get Longbow for 2~3.

For durability, he has almost 20 more hp and avo, and 2.4 more def. The 8 res lead for Hugh can't begin to compare to that - they'd both have to get hit by 3 magic attacks before he's even through Ward's hp lead.

So Ward > Hugh seems pretty decisive.

There's Garret, but I took NM instead of HM for that post...but still I believe Ward > him is perfectly justified.

Zeis is above Ward? Iono, Ward obviously chainsaws him when Zeis joins, but Zeis is a man of improvement. His growths aren't much better than Ward's, but he gains levels extremely fast, and he has more mobility...but that's canceled out by much shittier durability, especially against bows and magic. I think that with HM bonuses, Zeis about ties 20/1 Ward in Spd though, lol. Ward wins supports obviously, A Miledy alone isn't enough to beat the time advantage of Ward combined with 3 possible good partners.

So I'd say Ward > Zeis.

Niime should prolly be above Ward.

[Progenitus]

Fa - she's only available from Ch16 and on, which is one chapter before Ward promotes. Fa does better against magic defensively, and her hit is significantly higher, but she has no 1-2 range, her durability takes a little while to pick up, and Ward's supports are a lot better.

She's really h4x for the exp rank, which also means she levels up ridiculously fast.

It's been awhile since I've even played this game, but I disagree with Ward > Fa. Even if Ward is not sucking, he's certainly not turning any heads. On the other hand, Fa really helps pad the exp rank.

[Mekkah]

thread title: With efficiency, and not ranks, in mind

[Quasar]

What's Treck, a side order? Treck's right there, and not a single person acknowledges his possible support with Zealot. Also note that unlike Marcus, Zealot's supports actually keep up with him, and don't statistically suck. Did everyone forget that Walt is just an unimpressive unit regardless? Zealot's got a frickin' triangle, someone notice him!

Treck's dead. If he's not he'll want A Noah so you're left with B Treck and no Noah.

Also due to supports and growths, Marcus can't even be useful lategame, while Zealot can at least be a pretty cool guy.

Growths? Really now? Ten levels for 2 HP and 2 DEF advantage while losing out on some other stats? Holy growth advantage, Batman. The supports better be really fucking good because that's not even a difference worth mentioning.

So are they? Marcus has better characters but they have better options available so he's left with Wolt. Zealot, if assumed that Treck got lucky and survived, has B Treck from the cavaliers as they want A with each other and Noah wants B Fir who is superior to them and deserves it more. Now for the remaining three slots he can take the birds. Birds don't want Zealot, except for Yuno just because it's a fast one. The birds' don't slow Zealot down but when you turn the situation around Zealot sure as hell slows the birds down, killing the usage of flight pretty much entirely since Zealot can't cross rivers etc.

This also benefits two other guys, who are also cavaliers, which helps to make a team. Marcus barely benefits a single person, and the support merely delays the inevitable, and his support is a sucky unit anyways. Actual long-term use and a beneficial unit to a team>Jjust earlygame use, despite how painful it would be without him.

Seriously, I don't see it. He's not better than Marcus at join. Any small advantage he would gain would be too late to save him while they're being equal for the part they both are useful. If we want to talk about efficiency you're better off using both for Western Isles and dumping them afterwards.

Hell, he's only key in the first chapter, I've easily done it without him afterwards, except maybe chapter 7 where we just need any unit we can throw in.

I have no idea where you're going with this. I can clear the game without using Lance. He's the highest ranked character in the game. You don't need to use him, sure, but you don't need to use Zealot either. You don't need to use any specific character but don't pretend Marcus isn't your best unit for those chapters.

[Mekkah]

Something that just occurred to me is that Fa can afford not one but two or even three Angelic Robes easily, since not only does she not use a promo item, but she also never uses weapons. And Angelic Robes are buyable for just 4000G a piece with Silver Card (unranked = no funds rank), whereas weapons before Ch14 all cost normal price.

Fa with two robes has 30 base hp. Three puts her at 37. This isn't very far from Lance at 20/1.

1/0 Fa - 30 hp, 14 str, 14 skl, 3 spd, 26 res, 7 luk

Divinestone: 30 atk, ~132 hit, 3 AS -- 30 hp, 17 def, 27 res

5/0 Fa

Divinestone: 33.6 atk, 141.1 hit, 5.6 AS - - 24.2 avo, 37.2 hp, 18.2 def, 28.0 res

(since she can only get those robes when her joining chapter is about over)

Of course the people above her at the moment all beat her at availability by significant amounts, especially factoring in stone use. Still, I thought it was pretty notable how easily Fa's durability is fixed within just a chapter.

Treck's dead

Does anyone else find this notion pretty ridiculous?

Edited June 23, 2009 by Mekkah

[grandjackal]

Mekkah, she may be a free unit, but that still doesn't entitle her to stat boosters. You know better than that, man.

Treck's dead. If he's not he'll want A Noah so you're left with B Treck and no Noah.

Lolwut? Noah died, I didn't recruit him and he ran off into wyverns, Zealot died because his AIs a tard and thought rushing hte boss would be a bright idea.

Thing is, they both would rather A with Zealot anyways. Either of them can B B, as they got others who can fix the whole (Noah's got Fir, Treck's got Gonzales)

Growths? Really now? Ten levels for 2 HP and 2 DEF advantage while losing out on some other stats? Holy growth advantage, Batman. The supports better be really fucking good because that's not even a difference worth mentioning.

Oh dear god, Zealot loses in skill, luck and resistance! Come on, you completely ignored the insane actual durability lead (4 HP, 6 Def, if I've never seen shit stomping before...) and the 2 AS. Those 2 AS are rather key, as it's a lead he forever holds above his old rival's head. See, Zealot is actually capable of doubling shit lategame.Not much, but Marcus is never able to. Hell, Marcus is overstaying his welcome lke halfway through the western isles.

Supports with two other paladins, a class that is the best in the game? Yeah, they are hax, and they get great all around bonuses for it. Marcus has a support with a piddling archer who is just statistically bad all around.

So are they? Marcus has better characters but they have better options available so he's left with Wolt. Zealot, if assumed that Treck got lucky and survived, has B Treck from the cavaliers as they want A with each other and Noah wants B Fir who is superior to them and deserves it more. Now for the remaining three slots he can take the birds. Birds don't want Zealot, except for Yuno just because it's a fast one. The birds' don't slow Zealot down but when you turn the situation around Zealot sure as hell slows the birds down, killing the usage of flight pretty much entirely since Zealot can't cross rivers etc.

What, you can't save Treck? It's not even hard.

Anyways, why the fuck would Noah want Fir? She comes later, gives barely better bonuses than Zealot (1 Atk is the difference), and there is move difference to be considered. Fir's got other options anyways (Bartre, Shin, even Rutger)

Either way, any one of them B Bing is easily fixed, as their gaps can easily be filled (Treck's got Gonzo, Noah's got Fir as said, a C isn't murder, Zealot's got Tate). As for the birds, Tate's got no real other option outside of Klein, and Thany most likely has absolutely no one.

Seriously, I don't see it. He's not better than Marcus at join. Any small advantage he would gain would be too late to save him while they're being equal for the part they both are useful. If we want to talk about efficiency you're better off using both for Western Isles and dumping them afterwards.

Yeah, he's better than Marcus. 2 more HP, 1 more Str, 2 more speed, 2 more defense, and better overall weapon rank spread. On top of that is overall better growths and overall better support options.

Considering Zealot has the AS to be usable in Bern, I'll have to disagree with you. Zealot can actually double the wyvern riders in Bern, he helps be a pretty tanky unit in Sacae, and he can shit-stomp Ilia like everyone else. Marcus would need to be level 13 to double the pegasi in Ilia with their 10 AS. Zealot? Level 6.

I have no idea where you're going with this. I can clear the game without using Lance. He's the highest ranked character in the game. You don't need to use him, sure, but you don't need to use Zealot either. You don't need to use any specific character but don't pretend Marcus isn't your best unit for those chapters.

So Zealot is chopped liver for his chapters? Zealot is statistically better than Marcus on jointime. If Marcus is my best choice at that point and Zealot is better, then Zealot>Marcus must be true.

Edited June 23, 2009 by Pretty Boi Wolf

[Mekkah]

Mekkah, she may be a free unit, but that still doesn't entitle her to stat boosters. You know better than that, man.

In case you didn't know: Angelic Robes are buyable in the Ch16 Secret Shop. She isn't taking anything away from others by taking two buyable things from cash that she essentially provides.

[grandjackal]

In case you didn't know: Angelic Robes are buyable in the Ch16 Secret Shop. She isn't taking anything away from others by taking two buyable things from cash that she essentially provides.

You could just say she supplies the group with 2 angelic robes, which is a legitimate bonus in using her.

[Colonel M]

Saying "Treck is dead" is a dumbass statement tbh. Give me a freaking break.

Besides, if Zealot were to take them, B's would probably be the best. Noah / Treck do support themselves better (well... sort of), though thing is it becomes a clusterfuck if you include Tate wants Zealot and Fir wants Noah. These guys aren't lacking on the support end anyway.

Also, Zealot makes better use of the stat boosters. IIRC, he can come a bit more out of the borderline doubling with a Speedwing, but I guess it doesn't improve him too much. Dracoshield if he's --/10 by Sacae (I'd say he's slightly higher but w/e) puts him immune to Nomads, which is pretty awesome considering that Sacae is a shitfest in the first place. Obviously this includes two supports that have a +1 in Def (so something like B Tate / B Noah is a good spread). Damn, I want to use Zealot in my next playthrough. Slightly underrated pre-promote ftw.

Edited June 23, 2009 by Colonel M

[Quasar]

Does anyone else find this notion pretty ridiculous?

Saying "Treck is dead" is a dumbass statement tbh. Give me a freaking break.

:3

Oh dear god, Zealot loses in skill, luck and resistance! Come on, you completely ignored the insane actual durability lead (4 HP, 6 Def, if I've never seen shit stomping before...) and the 2 AS. Those 2 AS are rather key, as it's a lead he forever holds above his old rival's head. See, Zealot is actually capable of doubling shit lategame.Not much, but Marcus is never able to. Hell, Marcus is overstaying his welcome lke halfway through the western isles.

You mean 1 AS? The 1AS that becomes 0 AS eventually? Marcus has a better speed growth man. Where did you get 6 DEF though?

Weapon skills are extremely questionable. If there is a difference Marcus can catch up in the next chapter or so.

Supports..

[Colonel M]

http://www.serenesforest.net/fe6/average/zealot.html

http://www.serenesforest.net/fe6/average/marcus.html

Zealot's AS > Marcus's AS.

It takes a --/7 Marcus IIRC (rounded up) to tie AS.

Edited June 23, 2009 by Colonel M

[grandjackal]

You mean 1 AS? The 1AS that becomes 0 AS eventually? Marcus has a better speed growth man. Where did you get 6 DEF though?

Someone doesn't check averages. It becomes one point rather late in the game practically at their level cap. Zealot's ALWAYS beating him in speed, because Marcus isn't packing so much greater a speed growth to actually matter. Hell, Zealot has a good chance of always being 2 speed ahead of him, about 80%

I also got 6 Def from their averages, go check 'em. Woop, pardon. It's about 5-6 def, but still.

Weapon skills are extremely questionable. If there is a difference Marcus can catch up in the next chapter or so.

He's ahead of Marcus in weapon rank by 1 sword and axe rank. They share the same lance rank. This means less work for killer axes and swords, lancereaver, swordreaver, he's already got hand axes under his belt. Best Marcus can do by the time Zealot shows up is tie him in two ranks.

Supports..

Yes, you cannot win this. Don't even try.

[Mekkah]

Who the hell cares that Zealot does a tiny weeny bit better by mid-lategame? There's no denying both are mediocre-bad by then, what with Zealot [both's, but Zealot's too]'s craptastic hit and AS. What Marcus has is something Zealot doesn't: being really really good for an extended time period.

You could just say she supplies the group with 2 angelic robes, which is a legitimate bonus in using her.

Then give them to someone else if that's better. That's not hurting Fa's case any - if anything, it's helping. However, she uses them pretty damn well herself. You hype Barth's tanking, now look at how much better Fa is at it taking everything into account.

[Quasar]

http://www.serenesforest.net/fe6/average/zealot.html

http://www.serenesforest.net/fe6/average/marcus.html

Zealot's AS > Marcus's AS.

It takes a --/7 Marcus IIRC (rounded up) to tie AS.

Someone doesn't check averages. It becomes one point rather late in the game practically at their level cap. Zealot's ALWAYS beating him in speed, because Marcus isn't packing so much greater a speed growth to actually matter. Hell, Zealot has a good chance of always being 2 speed ahead of him, about 80%

No. At join it's 1 AS. Marcus should be at least level 3 and from there on they're gaining levels at an equal rate. If Zealot gets to 20 it's back to 1 AS and never is 2.

I also got 6 Def from their averages, go check 'em. Woop, pardon. It's about 5-6 def, but still.

Uh... okay. At join it's two minus Wolt. I'm seeing the averages but I'm not seeing 6 anywhere, and they won't be 20/20 soon. If ever.

He's ahead of Marcus in weapon rank by 1 sword and axe rank. They share the same lance rank. This means less work for killer axes and swords, lancereaver, swordreaver, he's already got hand axes under his belt. Best Marcus can do by the time Zealot shows up is tie him in two ranks.

He is tied in two ranks and bloody close on the third. You can choose it to be swords too and basically you're not losing on anything because Killing Edges aren't common yet.

Yes, you cannot win this. Don't even try.

If Marcus is allowed no supports I can't I suppose. With only Wolt I can clearly see Marcus > Zealot. Also if you want to set Lance/Alan/Roy in stone you really should do so and not allow any of the three to be used with support arguments for other characters. Like I said earlier, it's your tier list and your rules.

[grandjackal]

Who the hell cares that Zealot does a tiny weeny bit better by mid-lategame? There's no denying both are mediocre-bad by then, what with Zealot [both's, but Zealot's too]'s craptastic hit and AS. What Marcus has is something Zealot doesn't: being really really good for an extended time period.

Considering Zealot can actually double things into the lategame area? Thing is, Zealot can barely make the cut, while Marcus can't.

To put it simply, Marcus would need more speed wings to have an offensive lead, of which Zealot can just use one and be just fine.

He also helps two paladins be even better at their job. I'd hardly call Marcus's mere earlygame win too important. The difference is quantity to quality, Zealot being the latter. The point is Zealot's actually usable, rather than just tossed aside after early/mid.

Then give them to someone else if that's better. That's not hurting Fa's case any - if anything, it's helping. However, she uses them pretty damn well herself. You hype Barth's tanking, now look at how much better Fa is at it taking everything into account.

I never was complaining over that, I'm agreeing with you. I'm just asking how important is it, do you think this will rise her at all?

No. At join it's 1 AS. Marcus should be at least level 3 and from there on they're gaining levels at an equal rate. If Zealot gets to 20 it's back to 1 AS and never is 2.

'Tis a chance of it being 1 AS. Besides, Zealot's chances of having 2 AS at cap is greater than Marcus closing a gap by 1 early on.

Also, you do realize your argument is trying to close a gap right? Either way, that 1 AS actually matters, as it doubles wyvern riders lategame.

Uh... okay. At join it's two minus Wolt. I'm seeing the averages but I'm not seeing 6 anywhere, and they won't be 20/20 soon. If ever.

The 6 is if we round up, considering how high the chance is.

Now the problem with Wolt you keep not mentioning is move difference, and the fact Wolt sucks. Another problem is Zealot actually has a sizeable growth advantage in defense along with better durability bases.

He is tied in two ranks and bloody close on the third. You can choose it to be swords too and basically you're not losing on anything because Killing Edges aren't common yet.

Most likely tied in swords I'd imagine. The D in axes however, Marcus doesn't exactly have a good amount of time or opportunities to build up axe rank. Isn't D the rank of which you get Halberd and Hammer use?

If Marcus is allowed no supports I can't I suppose. With only Wolt I can clearly see Marcus > Zealot. Also if you want to set Lance/Alan/Roy in stone you really should do so and not allow any of the three to be used with support arguments for other characters. Like I said earlier, it's your tier list and your rules.

The fact you're arguing a crappy low tier unit with severe move difference as a support does not help you. Wolt's so bad, he's not even helpful early on. I could easily lower him below Igrene and Dorothy actually.

As for Allen Lance Roy support...That's pretty much always the case. There's no reason to do otherwise with them.

Edited June 23, 2009 by Pretty Boi Wolf

[Dat Nick]

...Let's not consider Walt as an actually likely support option, here. We're not debating Walt here, he's pretty much never being played.

[grandjackal]

A couple suggestions I would like to make.

-Shin and Gonzales to high.

-Klein and below in upper mid go down to lower mid, with Treck and up in lower mid go up to upper mid. Essentially switching places.

-Ray will go to the top of low

-Igrene and Dorothy to switch places with Walt

-Bartre to top of lower mid.

Any objections? I know I'm going to do so with Bartre, he was there before the time warp.

[Quasar]

Considering Zealot can actually double things into the lategame area? Thing is, Zealot can barely make the cut, while Marcus can't.

He also helps two paladins be even better at their job. I'd hardly call Marcus's mere earlygame win too important. The difference is quantity to quality, Zealot being the latter. The point is Zealot's actually usable, rather than just tossed aside after early/mid.

'Tis a chance of it being 1 AS. Besides, Zealot's chances of having 2 AS at cap is greater than Marcus closing a gap by 1 early on.

Also, you do realize your argument is trying to close a gap right? Either way, that 1 AS actually matters, as it doubles wyvern riders lategame.

Except that it doesn't double anything but Armors and Mamkutes. WK SPD at Ch21 is 15 and Zealot is never going to have 19 AS.

The 6 is if we round up, considering how high the chance is.

Did you forget to round up Marcus' DEF too because according to my mathematics 17-12 at -/20 isn't 6. Nor is 16.7-11.85

Now the problem with Wolt you keep not mentioning is move difference, and the fact Wolt sucks. Another problem is Zealot actually has a sizeable growth advantage in defense along with better durability bases.

Yeah, I keep doing that because Marcus isn't going to rush ahead still and Wolt is forced in play at the beginning either way.

I have no idea why we're even discussing the placement of characters in mid-ish tiers if their equally ranked support partners are assumed to not be played. Why are we assuming our discussed characters are in play then?

Most likely tied in swords I'd imagine. The D in axes however, Marcus doesn't exactly have a good amount of time or opportunities to build up axe rank. Isn't D the rank of which you get Halberd and Hammer use?

D rank gives you Halberd and Hammer yes, and Marcus can have those too. You have a choice in weaponry, you can have that axe rank if you want them. Hell, Marcus might even hit something with the Halberd due to SKL and LCK lead which by the way are not worth nothing.

[Mekkah]

I'm not going to assume Speedwings are being tossed on Zealot, those things are way too valuable to be assumed like that. Performance without any Speedwings should weigh much heavier than with one or...two Speedwings? Wtf?

Anyway, Zealot isn't doubling much moreso than Marcus, since his AS is only 1 higher, MAYBE 2. Looking at Ch17 Ilia, for example:

Cavaliers have at least 12 Spd, so 8 AS with Steel Lance. Both double that. With 10 AS (Javelin), Marcus has to be --/12 or --/13, or he needs a Speedwing if you insist on bringing those in, and he'll double too. Mages have 12 Spd, so Zealot is never doubling that unless he's --/16 or he gets a Speedwing. etc

And using a Speedwing on one of these is crap, because you aren't getting jack out of it. Their atk is horrible. --/20 Zealot with Killer Axe only has 25-26 atk, which isn't even enough to get a clean 2HKO on a Cavalier even with WTA. With a Hand Axe, he only has only 21-22, which means he needs FOUR hits to take out one of these Cavaliers. He can't even ORKO a 37 hp/6 def Bishop with that.

Stop hyping Zealot's mid/late without proper numbers back-up.

[grandjackal]

Except that it doesn't double anything but Armors and Mamkutes. WK SPD at Ch21 is 15 and Zealot is never going to have 19 AS.

Minus 2 due to Steel Lances. 16>12 by 4.

Did you forget to round up Marcus' DEF too because according to my mathematics 17-12 at -/20 isn't 6. Nor is 16.7-11.85

Fine then, it's 5. Happy there's still a sizeable gap?

Yeah, I keep doing that because Marcus isn't going to rush ahead still and Wolt is forced in play at the beginning either way.

I have no idea why we're even discussing the placement of characters in mid-ish tiers if their equally ranked support partners are assumed to not be played. Why are we assuming our discussed characters are in play then?

And why shouldn't our so called god modder not rush ahead for? Not like you can't just give Marcus vulneries here.

Walt may be forced, but not in chapter 7 or 6. Others can do Walt's job just as well for those chapters.

D rank gives you Halberd and Hammer yes, and Marcus can have those too. You have a choice in weaponry, you can have that axe rank if you want them. Hell, Marcus might even hit something with the Halberd due to SKL and LCK lead which by the way are not worth nothing.

Zealot can double armors with a hammer, and thus kill them because his speed's good enough. Zealot's also tougher, so he can afford to use it anyways. By then, the difference in hit is pretty much based on luck, so Marcus is at best sporting like 5 more hit.

As for axe rank, explain how you get 50 WEXP in axes when the only axes are in the hands of your 2 axemen, who are screwed out of new weapons until chapter 5, the next chapter being axe heavy so it's smarter to use swords, and then only having 1 actual chapter of using axes?

Mekkah, I would like to note I have always said Zealot's offense isn't that great. On the other hand, at least it exists.

Edited June 23, 2009 by Pretty Boi Wolf

[Quasar]

Minus 2 due to Steel Lances. 16>12 by 4.

Fine then, it's 5. Happy there's still a sizeable gap?

I'm just hoping you're not trying to pull off figures from your sleeve and get away with it. Like with that speed calculation. 15-2 isn't 12 and thus he can't double.

And why shouldn't our so called god modder not rush ahead for? Not like you can't just give Marcus vulneries here.

What? I wouldn't have him do that but if you think he can solo chapters early on I have no idea how you can consider him worse than Zealot given any advantage later on.

As for axe rank, explain how you get 50 WEXP in axes when the only axes are in the hands of your 2 axemen, who are screwed out of new weapons until chapter 5, the next chapter being axe heavy so it's smarter to use swords, and then only having 1 actual chapter of using axes?

Sure. The two axemen bring five axes with them. Just borrow one.

[grandjackal]

I'm just hoping you're not trying to pull off figures from your sleeve and get away with it. Like with that speed calculation. 15-2 isn't 12 and thus he can't double.

Gee, why don't you check the enemy averages I got on the front page? Chapter 21 is the one you're looking for.

Er wait..*slaps forehead* I must have been thinking at the time with the 17 AS x.x

What? I wouldn't have him do that but if you think he can solo chapters early on I have no idea how you can consider him worse than Zealot given any advantage later on.

It's more I have no clue why you're keeping him tethered to Walt like that.

Sure. The two axemen bring five axes with them. Just borrow one.

5? There's 2 Iron Axes, Steel Axe, Hand Axe and Hammer. They'd like not having to be forced to use steel, hand and hammer all the time (steel axe sucks, hand axes and hammers are not to be used all the time like that), so you're basically taking one of the two's primary weapons, since Marcus's E rank in axes only allows iron use.

[Mekkah]

Zealot can double armors with a hammer, and thus kill them because his speed's good enough.

Base Marcus has 7 AS with Hammer. Ch7 Armors don't top 2 AS. Zealot's Spd lead doesn't matter jack here. Can you please stop pulling shit out of your ass in a tier list debate just because you like Zealot?

Also, Iron Axes are buyable in Ch4, and using axes in the latter half of Ch2 isn't a bad idea since it's got quite a few Soldiers, and you still don't quite KO some other things with it. And all those Armor Knight bosses are a good idea to attack with Iron/Hand Axe too.

Mekkah, I would like to note I have always said Zealot's offense isn't that great. On the other hand, at least it exists.

I don't know where you're getting the idea Zealot's offense is significantly better than Marcus's, by enough to overcome 6 tough chapters of hax. I just showed it's utter crap. I've shown his AS difference meant little. Now Zealot has a 1 str lead over base Marcus. And their str is still absolute shit.

Use numbers to show Zealot's offense is worth investing Speedwings in rather than giving them to someone like Alan who is borderline doubling. Use numbers to show Zealot is worth giving a unit slot to lategame. And, overall, use numbers to show the same treatment does not make Marcus nearly as good (or bad).

Until you're going to counter numeric arguments made by others, I think it's pretty clear that 6 chapters of hax >>>> slight lead during chapters where neither is likely fielded and both would be large detriments if they actually are.

[dondon151]

Steel Axe and Hand Axe are E rank, too. Marcus would gladly take the Steel Axe.