Efficiency Tier List?

[grandjackal]

God, even forgot their con is 11, not 9...or is it 10?

Either way, perhaps I should just not argue the point. I seem to get worse and worse memory every day, so...

Zealot<Marcus

As for speed wings, 18 AS would double sages and bishops. Only things he wouldn't be doubling that Allen might then would be Wyvern Lords and obvious speedy units.

EDIT: You gotta be fucking kidding me, hand axes and steel axes are E rank?...Man, I had no hope with this one, did I?

Edited June 23, 2009 by Pretty Boi Wolf

[dondon151]

Check the site a bit more, dude. It takes like 5 seconds >.> I always have a tab opened up to the SF main page.

[grandjackal]

Check the site a bit more, dude. It takes like 5 seconds >.> I always have a tab opened up to the SF main page.

It's not so much that, as much as I forgot to take things into account, and I got mixed up with axe weapon rank. I'm pretty sure steel and hand axes are D in later games.

Got mixed up with con, as I mistook them between a normal cav.

My memory is utter suck but yeah, I REALLY should remember to double-check x.x

[dondon151]

FE6 through FE9, Hand Axe and Steel Axe are both E. They're D in FE5 and FE11.

[grandjackal]

FE6 through FE9, Hand Axe and Steel Axe are both E. They're D in FE5 and FE11.

You gotta be fucking kidding me...

*double checks*

... *facedeskfacedeskfacedeskfacedesk-*

[A2ZOMG]

Eh, idunno about Ward anymore lol.

I just think Lot is at least a tier higher than him in terms of usefulness. Since Lot actually starts out good (compared to most of your units) and is one of your few units that doesn't have excessive issues dying randomly (being able to tank nomads in Sacae is pretty pro too). And being good earlygame matters the most in this game because earlygame for the most part is the hardest part of the game to get through.

Earlygame stuff, not having fail spd/durability for the entire game. There are a number of slower enemies that Lot even gets to double that Ward has no hope of getting (Ward actually has trouble DAing armors because his spd is terrible, so that's pretty fail).

I think Lot should go over Ray perhaps...since there really isn't much use in Ray when he joins.

Edited June 23, 2009 by A2ZOMG

[Colonel M]

Wait a minute... how the fuck did Cecilia and Ray jump so damn high over Bartre and Lott?

[grandjackal]

That's why Lot is above him, though I recall before the time warp, he was in upper mid. I'll have to remember where I put him and adjust accordingly.

As for Ray, I am seeing he should be the top of Low Tier, so don't worry there. Any objections?

As for Cecilia...It's certainly debatable.

[Mekkah]

Lot and Ward aren't that far apart earlygame. Lot has 1 more hp and 1 more def, and he has 2 AS. I won't deny it's significant, but it doesn't scream "you die and I don't", nor "Lot starts out good compared to others whereas Ward doesn't".

Ward having trouble doubling Armors is bull imo. Armor Knights rarely if ever get above 2 AS earlygame, and Ward starts with 6. One Spd level-up means he DAs them all the way up until Ch8 at least.

Of course, I'm fine with Lot being significantly better than Ward, particular because he develops a very significant AS lead (15 vs 10-11 Spd at 20/1). But it's not because of their earlygame.

[Florete]

-Shin and Gonzales to high.

I don't know about Shin, but I'm pretty sure it was agreed Gonzalez should stay in Upper Mid for his awful Hit.

-Klein and below in upper mid go down to lower mid, with Treck and up in lower mid go up to upper mid. Essentially switching places.

Yeah, you're gonna need a lot more for such a huge switch. Like, I could see Fir going up, not down. Although Treck, Noah, and Geese I can see in Upper Mid and Ray, Cecilia, and maybe Klein in Lower Mid.

-Ray will go to the top of low

Below the likes of Hugh, Zeiss, and Garret? Really?

-Igrene and Dorothy to switch places with Walt

Sounds good.

Also, I recall arguing Cath at least to Lower Mid before the time warp.

[A2ZOMG]

Lot and Ward aren't that far apart earlygame. Lot has 1 more hp and 1 more def, and he has 2 AS. I won't deny it's significant, but it doesn't scream "you die and I don't", nor "Lot starts out good compared to others whereas Ward doesn't".

The key difference is 2 AS, which allows Lot to not get doubled by Cavaliers, which are a major pain in the butt in chapter 4 in particular. That extra AS also means he gets the jump on Armors with a hammer.

Ward having trouble doubling Armors is bull imo. Armor Knights rarely if ever get above 2 AS earlygame, and Ward starts with 6. One Spd level-up means he DAs them all the way up until Ch8 at least.

Ward's starting speed is 5. And his growth rate is only 20%. That's exactly the same as Barth. Armors usually have liek 2 spd (3-5 later in the game), and they never lose AS. And he's never onerounding them as usually one hit from a hammer leaves them with single digit hp, and then anything else pretty much never 2hits them. Lot is actually able to oneround armors.

Of course, I'm fine with Lot being significantly better than Ward, particular because he develops a very significant AS lead (15 vs 10-11 Spd at 20/1). But it's not because of their earlygame.

Not getting doubled by cavs, always doubling armors and loldiers, and in general being a lot more durable against stuff >>> getting raped on the counter by everything and doubling nothing.

Also, because Lot is more likely to double stuff, he's by far a much more viable candidate for the Killer Axe you get on chapter 6. In fact, he's pretty much the only viable user of it earlygame.

[Colonel M]

We know Lott >>>> Ward though. Mekkah's just saying that Ward isn't "terrible" to the point of being so low in the tier list like he was beforehand.

[Mekkah]

And what no one's reiterated so far: the fact that he can't really be a negative, since he's forced. He's doing less damage than your 10th best unit? Tough luck, you have more than that on the field, so just use them all. And even at Ch6, Ward still easily deserves a spot over Bors, Wolt, and of course Dorothy and Sue (forced in Ch6, but not after that). And around this time, he can have Dieck/Lot supports that make him arguable or even beating other people like Oujay, Treck, Thany, etc on certain areas.

[Colonel M]

I unno about OJ. Granted his start is rocky, but he's gaining CEXP like a madman. Even the Armor Knights he can easily ORKO and he has the weapon to do this. Though Leygance has the possibility of OHKOing him with a Silver Lance, IIRC, it takes either 1 HP level or 1 Def level to bypass that.

There's also OJ being a lot easier to use in the Western Isles and still having WTA in the Desert. There's also some Brigands in C15. By C16 I'd say both Ward and OJ are good to promote, though OJ at that point would be doubling a lot more than Ward and OJ would have a slightly easier time with Sacae while Ward would have a slightly easier time in Ilia.

Beating Treck I could give less of a damn about, though he too isn't terribly difficult to train since he's got supports on his side (Zealot can at least last for a while, Noah, Gonzales) and it's not like Wind affinity is total garbage. Promotion he's rocking with WTC and better mobility. On top of that, he's got some durability built onto him at the very least (20/1 with no supports has 42 HP / 15 Def alone. Wade here has 50 HP / 11 Def with no supports, but IIRC there's that 11 AS in comparison to Treck's 15 that might make me question his being doubled problem (in this case, Wyvern Lords sort of burn through my head on Ward's case). Dunno, might be worth looking over here at least.

[Mekkah]

You're missing the point. I'm not saying Ward > those on the tier list. I'm saying that using an actively used Ward over them the moment you have to choose between the two (if you somehow only have one slot left) is not a loss. Or if it's one, it's very small.

[Colonel M]

You're missing the point. I'm not saying Ward > those on the tier list. I'm saying that using an actively used Ward over them the moment you have to choose between the two (if you somehow only have one slot left) is not a loss. Or if it's one, it's very small.

I apologize then. I thought you were arguing Ward above them, hence why I threw myself into position, I guess.

[A2ZOMG]

And what no one's reiterated so far: the fact that he can't really be a negative, since he's forced. He's doing less damage than your 10th best unit? Tough luck, you have more than that on the field, so just use them all. And even at Ch6, Ward still easily deserves a spot over Bors, Wolt, and of course Dorothy and Sue (forced in Ch6, but not after that). And around this time, he can have Dieck/Lot supports that make him arguable or even beating other people like Oujay, Treck, Thany, etc on certain areas.

It's true that Ward is being fielded, but there is still the option of using him in combat or letting someone else be used in combat. In most (if not all situations) where you use Ward in combat, unless he's killing his enemy (which is iffy, due to his bad hit) he's usually getting owned on the counter, which if anything, is hurting your team.

Anyhow, Lot at least just needed to be higher...since last time I was looking he was in the same tier was Ward lol.

Edited June 23, 2009 by A2ZOMG

[Dat Nick]

Hold up. wtf is Walt doing above Igrene/Dorothy? It is certainly not because of a one-sided Marcus support which doesn't even help his problems [Wolt needs offense, not defense] and even those are gone as Marcus is rubbish in a few chapters later. Dorothy may take a crapton of babying as well as Walt, but Dorothy needs much less and can actually kill stuff later due to existing offense, and Igrene doesn't even need babying at all.

[grandjackal]

I don't know about Shin, but I'm pretty sure it was agreed Gonzalez should stay in Upper Mid for his awful Hit.

I had just remembered, so you can blame my memory on that one.

Yeah, you're gonna need a lot more for such a huge switch. Like, I could see Fir going up, not down. Although Treck, Noah, and Geese I can see in Upper Mid and Ray, Cecilia,

In a way, it was sort of blasted in my face upon the realization that Lot was supposed to be higher, and that Zealot isn't as good as I thought due to...minor memory slips ;;>>

I know you want Fir to rise, but she's just not getting above Klein, the end.

I don't think Geese is quite deserving of upper mid, but he is pretty close.

Treck and Noah are not getting above Zealot due to them needing to be trained to be generally just as good as he is anyways. Seriously check the averages. They are all incredibly similar to one another, just Treck and Noah got luck and a bit more str.

Cecilia? Well colonel did think her and Bartre are debatable, so feel free with that one.

and maybe Klein in Lower Mid.

Rrrrr...You're never gonna let this die, are you?

Below the likes of Hugh, Zeiss, and Garret? Really?

Hue technically devours resources, but at least he didn't need to be fed CEXP to get as good as he is anyways.

Garret is a pretty decent out the box guy.

Zeiss...Yeah, maybe it was a bit harsh a move. Nice to have a safety net.

Sounds good.

It shall be done.

Also, I recall arguing Cath at least to Lower Mid before the time warp.

Will fix.

[Colonel M]

Noah and Treck improve though once they promote. Their Spd growth isn't the best, but they have chances of doubling once they've built up. At times Treck will be over Noah, but you won't see this happen until lategame and Noah here has someone like Fir and Treck boosting his Str a bit. But dayum... he would like some Speedwings, methinks at times.

[grandjackal]

Noah and Treck improve though once they promote. Their Spd growth isn't the best, but they have chances of doubling once they've built up. At times Treck will be over Noah, but you won't see this happen until lategame and Noah here has someone like Fir and Treck boosting his Str a bit. But dayum... he would like some Speedwings, methinks at times.

No I'm serious. They do generally end up as Zealot. Again, check the stats. Zealot can also close the str gap by whipping out higher power axes, as he has more than enough time to build up rank.

[Colonel M]

If they end up like Zealot, at least they're durable as hell. Which is true. Bah, IS sure knows how to boil my kettle with things.

[Dat Nick]

Hold up. wtf is Walt doing above Igrene/Dorothy? It is certainly not because of a one-sided Marcus support which doesn't even help his problems [Wolt needs offense, not defense] and even those are gone as Marcus is rubbish in a few chapters later. Dorothy may take a crapton of babying as well as Walt, but Dorothy needs much less and can actually kill stuff later due to existing offense, and Igrene doesn't even need babying at all.

...What was that post, chopped liver?

[grandjackal]

No, as I just had Igrene and Dorothy already switch places.

Unless you wish to argue them higher...Please do, I'm personally a big of Igrene and can't debate her as I'm sure the sheer bias would cloud my judgement, which drives me to irrational hyping.

Anyways, how do y'all feel about Hue and Zeiss dropping to Low?

Edited June 24, 2009 by Pretty Boi Wolf

[Colonel M]

Unless I'm missing something, wouldn't Walt > Dorothy be alright since Walt at least has earlygame to be... marginally useful?