Efficiency Tier List?

[grandjackal]

Well, the Guiding Ring is rare as hell. Lugh is probably stealing the first one for a more meaningful promotion so even if you're 20 by the time Sacae comes there's only the other ring left from the end of 14 and it's contested. Of course the same goes for Ellen.

I contest this!

Lou has been looking to keep going down down down, and now another thing gets in the way, that being Lou's not having the easiest time being trained, and that his exp flow is not constant while Saul's is. Not to mention there is plenty of free exp in just masturbatory staffs, such as Unlock and M Barrier. Yes, I am saying Saul could easily be the best cantidate for the first ring, though Ellen can easily get the first one herself. However, all she gets is a form of offense, while Saul actually can be a contending offender.

As for his performance in Ilia...I'll get back to you on that.

Edited June 26, 2009 by Pretty Boi Wolf

[Colonel M]

I don't care for his overkill Con since I don't even use tomes of C rank or higher in FE7 and FE8 due to most of them being garbage anyway. And I find that moustache ugly and repulsive.

The simplicity of him being able to use such heavy tomes with little AS loss (if we want to get far, he loses little AS with EXFREAKINGCALIBUR) is a testament.

Fimbulvetr doesn't really come until late and Aura is one of the best Bishop tomes next to Purge.

Of course this is off-topic, but the Guiding Ring issue... dunno. Saul promoting early is still a question since besides Lugh, Ellen and Clarine are pretty good (well the latter anyway).

Speaking of that, I never seen why Ellen was higher than Saul other than the support thing... but I've been blind.

Edited June 26, 2009 by Colonel M

[grandjackal]

The simplicity of him being able to use such heavy tomes with little AS loss (if we want to get far, he loses little AS with EXFREAKINGCALIBUR) is a testament.

Fimbulvetr doesn't really come until late and Aura is one of the best Bishop tomes next to Purge.

His pisspoor magic makes him need expensive-ass weaponry with few uses, just have him go bishop and it won't matter wtf he uses.

Now take FE8 stuff to the FE8 board, can we keep on topic here please?

[Colonel M]

His pisspoor magic makes him need expensive-ass weaponry with few uses, just have him go bishop and it won't matter wtf he uses.

Now take FE8 stuff to the FE8 board, can we keep on topic here please?

Which is fixed with Anima support (Vanessa) and a Light user. Yeah, Bishop's better in most cases though.

Alright, I'm done. Had to pull a last-minute stunt.

[Shadow Mir]

The simplicity of him being able to use such heavy tomes with little AS loss (if we want to get far, he loses little AS with EXFREAKINGCALIBUR) is a testament.

Fimbulvetr doesn't really come until late and Aura is one of the best Bishop tomes next to Purge.

Of course this is off-topic, but the Guiding Ring issue... dunno. Saul promoting early is still a question since besides Lugh, Ellen and Clarine are pretty good (well the latter anyway).

Speaking of that, I never seen why Ellen was higher than Saul other than the support thing... but I've been blind.

His pisspoor magic makes him need expensive-ass weaponry with few uses, just have him go bishop and it won't matter wtf he uses.

Now take FE8 stuff to the FE8 board, can we keep on topic here please?

Yeah, that really shouldn't be talked about here. At any rate, I'd say Saul's not looking so hot in the support area, with all his options but Dorothy and lolYodel being 1+1s.

[Quasar]

Lou has been looking to keep going down down down, and now another thing gets in the way, that being Lou's not having the easiest time being trained, and that his exp flow is not constant while Saul's is. Not to mention there is plenty of free exp in just masturbatory staffs, such as Unlock and M Barrier.

I can't agree with him being hard to train. Harder than a healer, sure, but what I meant was that Lugh's promotional gains, that being healing and some tome level, outweight Saul's gains which is pretty much Light magic. Saul is a pretty fail attacker while healing can be useful in many situations as a secondary role.

Edit: And yeah Clarine too, forgot about her. Heavy competition for those things.

Anyway does Saul's LCK even matter? From a quick glance it seems that Ellen can't even survive a non-crit and doesn't have the speed to back up her luck for relying purely on avoid.

Edit: Also who's going to support Ellen? All her supports are +1 except for fliers who join late and won't be around her. At least Saul has Dorothy.

Edited June 26, 2009 by Quasar

[Shadow Mir]

I can't agree with him being hard to train. Harder than a healer, sure, but what I meant was that Lugh's promotional gains, that being healing and some tome level, outweight Saul's gains which is pretty much Light magic. Saul is a pretty fail attacker while healing can be useful in many situations as a secondary role.

Anyway does Saul's LCK even matter? From a quick glance it seems that Ellen can't even survive a non-crit and doesn't have the speed to back up her luck for relying purely on avoid.

I'd have to agree with Wolf here. Lugh has a sucky earlygame.

And I'd say Saul's low Luck can be quite detrimental since all his supporters that give him full Crit Evade are 1+1s.

[Colonel M]

Lugh's only time he is performing decently is promotion when he's got Staves and... Aircalibur, perhaps, at that point.

@Quasar: one forget Lugh, perhaps, for Ellen?

Edited June 26, 2009 by Colonel M

[Shadow Mir]

Edit: Also who's going to support Ellen? All her supports are +1 except for fliers who join late and won't be around her. At least Saul has Dorothy.

Ellen can get Lugh. And as for Saul getting Dorothy...*glances at tier list* I doubt it. And again, all of Saul's supports except for Dorothy and lolYodel are 1+1.

[grandjackal]

Well I looked over the Sacae route. Compare her magic to his at promotion, then realize he can actually double. Yes, Ellen will actually have trouble doubling the steel pegasi. Even worse is that since pegasi can fly in from everywhere, and her avoid is barely any better than his except she's pisspoor durably compared to his mehness? Ilia makes her cry tears of blood. Quasar brings up the next point with Sacae.

I can't agree with him being hard to train. Harder than a healer, sure, but what I meant was that Lugh's promotional gains, that being healing and some tome level, outweight Saul's gains which is pretty much Light magic. Saul is a pretty fail attacker while healing can be useful in many situations as a secondary role.

Lou's not too fucking hot either. He really really needs to be fed exp, while Saul's just got his own exp pool that he shares with very few, and healing is in damn high demand. Lou on the other hand isn't actually doing much damage regardless of the fact he's packing magic (it doesn't really start to hurt until he starts doubling, even then it might not be as noticeable except for obvious Aircalibur on wyverns. Even considering, Saul does heavy-ass damage to them regardless). At promotion, the best Lou's got on him is a bit more damage, while Saul's doubling more often. Lou's evade is also not much better, due to the few supports he has, the only good one being Ellen. The problem is getting Lou to good promotion level.

Now consider how easy it is to get him killed, as he can easily get OHKOd by some enemies. Not much better for Saul, but then again it's easier to level up Saul than Lou.

Anyway does Saul's LCK even matter? From a quick glance it seems that Ellen can't even survive a non-crit and doesn't have the speed to back up her luck for relying purely on avoid.

Thus the other point. Even with supports at level 6 for defensive measures she still gets ORKOd by nomads. Her uses at Sacae and Ilia is healer, chipper and support battery. Saul can do this too, with actual offense, and the ability to not crumble from poking.

Gotta love that Ice affinity.

As for supports, Saul can have, as said, Ellen as she's no better to B with. As for his A? Well that is the problem. Thing is, Dorothy is low due to earlygame, certainly not mid or lategame. His support with her can at least help her out of her rut quicker. Who the hell she gonna A with regardless?

To be honest, I would like Dorothy to rise, but I've not the brought up proof. I really gotta think how fast an archer would be leveling.

Oh, and if you got babying problems for an Ostian? Little tactic can be used which abuses the AI at chapter 8. First treasure room with the reinforcements coming from behind Barth. Door closest to Lilina's cell. Their groups are always led by archers, so an archer will be in the doorway. Put someone there, and it'll be clogged. The archer can't attack up front and the AI's dumb enough to always put the melee bastards around him, even after they die and someone needs to replace the space. This makes anyone with range easier to train (specifically Noah, Treck, Lilina and LolWendy), while also not killing efficiency, as while you do this you can use your real group to charge the throne (especially good for Lilina and LolWendy, as they're forced here anyways).

...Not saying this is bot babying, but it helps you clear this chapter faster, while giving them something to do. Safely as well, as the guys tailing you are neither attacking, or raping your group's ass from behind.

Same can also be done just outside the room where Barth's group actually arrives, so Barth, Wendy or OJ with the light brand (if he can use it) can easily do this.

Edited June 26, 2009 by Pretty Boi Wolf

[Shadow Mir]

As for supports, Saul can have, as said, Ellen as she's no better to B with. As for his A? Well that is the problem. Thing is, Dorothy is low due to earlygame, certainly not mid or lategame. His support with her can at least help her out of her rut quicker. Who the hell she gonna A with regardless?

To be honest, I would like Dorothy to rise, but I've not the brought up proof. I really gotta think how fast an archer would be leveling.

Yeah. Saul and Ellen have pretty sad support situations.

[grandjackal]

Yeah. Saul and Ellen have pretty sad support situations.

Considering they can easily be next to eachother since they have the same damn job, I don't see the problem other than it's the slowest, but they also have plenty of time. It's not the best, but it's not the worst. They only want Bs with eachother anyways.

Unless you meant in general, which case yeah, it's pretty bad. Ellen doesn't help Lou the way he would like to be helped, and Saul's most useful support happens to suck.

[dondon151]

Lou has been looking to keep going down down down, and now another thing gets in the way, that being Lou's not having the easiest time being trained, and that his exp flow is not constant while Saul's is.

Lugh has no problems being trained. No hit rate issues, no damage issues, no survivability issues while attacking (i.e. 1-2 range).

Lugh's EXP pool is different from Saul's, but Saul's EXP has the problem of having two viable competitors and lots of resources that just don't give much EXP. This will be further addressed below.

Not to mention there is plenty of free exp in just masturbatory staffs, such as Unlock and M Barrier.

Not quite. Unlock has an overwhelming 3 uses and thus should be conserved for when it's useful, because Lockpicks require thieves and Chest Keys require other units to divert their attention. As for Barrier, you're getting only 15 or 30 uses of it throughout the whole game, route depending, and resistance to magic is pretty important in a few spots in this game, so these staves aren't as abusable as you think. (Second Barrier is Bartre route.)

Yes, I am saying Saul could easily be the best cantidate for the first ring, though Ellen can easily get the first one herself. However, all she gets is a form of offense, while Saul actually can be a contending offender.

I won't deny that Saul's 18.75 AS at 20/1 is doubling much more than Ellen's 13.6 AS at 20/1. The problem is that Saul still gets 2RKO'd by like, everything. A Steel Sword merc, the weakest enemy in chapter 16, has 23 atk, which is a 2HKO against Saul's 32 HP/6.75 def.

Actually, I'm kidding, Javelin armors have 21 atk and 3RKO Saul, but they all have Steel Lances.For Ellen it's not much different, though she has to watch out for 30 and 31 atk Steel Axe fighters and a 30 atk Silver Bow sniper.

After chapter 16, however, enemy atk doesn't really go up that much (23-25 atk Steel Lance cavs in chapter 17I, for example), so Saul starts getting just 3RKO'd while Ellen is 2RKO'd forever. Interestingly enough, Silver Lance paladins don't go past 30 atk, so she's actually not at significant risk of getting OHKO'd. Until WLs show up.

Now let's factor in avoid. Saul is supportless (or has C or B Ellen or something); Ellen has B Lugh and C Miledy. Saul then has 41.75 avo; Ellen has 54.8 avo. Against those Steel Axe fighters, Ellen faces something ridiculous like 7.4 true hit. She also gives out 10 crit to Lugh and 5 to Miledy and 1 atk to each, improving their offense. Unfortunately, +2 atk and +15 crit on Saul doesn't mask the fact that what Saul's 2RKOs are 3RKOs for her.

In summary, Ellen has 3 chapters of availability and supports against Saul's superior offense and defense post-promotion. Though I usually don't believe supports to be very important, I don't think we can write them off so easily like we can for Miledy, because Saul is completely incapable of being a stand-alone unit. It should be noted that with Saul's 4.25 luk on promotion, every enemy usually has listed crit against him, even the 5 crit fighters and armors. I suppose, though, that Goddess Icons aren't in high demand, but Saul needs 3 Goddess Icons before mercs stop having listed crit against him.

Saul is a pretty fail attacker while healing can be useful in many situations as a secondary role.

Not quite true. Saul has 18 atk and 18.75 AS at 20/1, which 2RKOs quite a lot.

Yes, Ellen will actually have trouble doubling the steel pegasi.

Bull fucking shit. Steel Lance PKs in chapter 18I have 8 AS; Ellen averages 14.4 at 20/5. Axereaver PKs have 10 AS, so those will be doubled as well. Ellen actually doesn't face many problems in Ilia; mercs in 18I have 17 AS, not enough to double her.

At promotion, the best Lou's got on him is a bit more damage, while Saul's doubling more often.

Incorrect. Saul vs. Lugh is like Percival vs. Miledy, except Saul doesn't double mercs for a few more maps.

Edited June 26, 2009 by dondon151

[A2ZOMG]

Dayan...

This dude doesn't look useless. He has high speed and Bows (wyvern target practice anyone?).

[Dat Nick]

Not quite. Unlock has an overwhelming 3 uses and thus should be conserved for when it's useful,

When IS it useful? You just said, a whoamg 3 uses and infinite door keys are buyable in shops even when we're not using theives. Unlock isn't useful for anything BUT staff whoring. Also, I'm 99% sure it can't unlock chests. Barrier, conceded.

[dondon151]

When IS it useful? You just said, a whoamg 3 uses and infinite door keys are buyable in shops even when we're not using theives. Unlock isn't useful for anything BUT staff whoring. Also, I'm 99% sure it can't unlock chests. Barrier, conceded.

I'd rather have a staff user use Unlock than a combat unit unlock a door. Then, you have 3 staff users competing for the staff. Sweet, exactly 30 more EXP for Saul. That must spell the giant difference between Saul and Lugh's EXP gain!

[Dat Nick]

I'd rather have a staff user use Unlock than a combat unit unlock a door.

If a combat unit is opening a door, chances are there's no combat to be doing.

Then, you have 3 staff users competing for the staff.

Assuming you're using all three. I'm not going to have Ellen take 30 EXP from the staff if I'm not going to use her later.

[dondon151]

If a combat unit is opening a door, chances are there's no combat to be doing.

Or there could be! Remember, 3 uses!

Assuming you're using all three. I'm not going to have Ellen take 30 EXP from the staff if I'm not going to use her later.

Oh or we can be only using Ellen and she gets all 90 EXP or there's no point in listing out all of the damn possibilities if you'll just acknowledge there's 3 units competing for EXP. We're not this retarded when it comes to stuff like promotion items.

[grandjackal]

Lugh has no problems being trained. No hit rate issues, no damage issues, no survivability issues while attacking (i.e. 1-2 range).

No survivability issues? He's getting easily OHKOd by some brigands, and ORKOd by some nomads. There are plenty of ranged enemies early on (chapter 7 is rather painful with all it's cavaliers, javelins, and those damn wyverns). Lou has to be on the front lines, Saul can just hang back till he's needed. Also at their base, compare his 20 HP and 2 defense to Lou's 16 HP and 3 def.

Lugh's EXP pool is different from Saul's, but Saul's EXP has the problem of having two viable competitors and lots of resources that just don't give much EXP. This will be further addressed below.

3 healers on a map is a tad overkill, don't you think? Besides, there is plenty to heal from obvious damage that will be taken, to HP from a level up. You got plenty of opportunities to heal. Lou doesn't have this kind of open opportunity, especially if he wants to kill somethng. It has to be weakened for him for him to finish, even though it's magic damage.

Not quite. Unlock has an overwhelming 3 uses and thus should be conserved for when it's useful, because Lockpicks require thieves and Chest Keys require other units to divert their attention. As for Barrier, you're getting only 15 or 30 uses of it throughout the whole game, route depending, and resistance to magic is pretty important in a few spots in this game, so these staves aren't as abusable as you think. (Second Barrier is Bartre route.)

Unlock is legitimate. 3 isn't much, and the others are entitled to it as much as he is. Would be fair he at least gets one use out of it. It's around 30 EXP a pop, which I believe is what Lou gets for a kill, while this also helps you move faster through chapter 8 and in chapter 7 lets Chad get to the M Barrier staff and Rapier faster.

As for the Barrier staff, when do you need it? As far as I can see, it's utterly useless outside of abusing it for exp. Not many mages with a group early on. Sniper mages are hardly numerous enough to be a real threat, you can just heal up whatever damage they do. Most of their situations don't really endanger you to a group of enemies anyways. If you are regarding staffs, Barrier is not anywhere near as reliable as maybe Silencing them first, or Sleeping them, or just restoring whatever they do. There's no reason not to milk this thing.

I won't deny that Saul's 18.75 AS at 20/1 is doubling much more than Ellen's 13.6 AS at 20/1. The problem is that Saul still gets 2RKO'd by like, everything. A Steel Sword merc, the weakest enemy in chapter 16, has 23 atk, which is a 2HKO against Saul's 32 HP/6.75 def.

B with Ellen and A with Dorothy doesn't sound too unreasonable for then. It's enough to boost it up to a 3HKO. Hell, just a C with Cecilia can do this as well as either of those. Granted, no way that's happening in so short a time, but it's there.

Oh, and nice avoiding the fact they ORKO Ellen, as they can double. 13<17 by four.

Actually, I'm kidding, Javelin armors have 21 atk and 3RKO Saul, but they all have Steel Lances.For Ellen it's not much different, though she has to watch out for 30 and 31 atk Steel Axe fighters and a 30 atk Silver Bow sniper.

Those knights are also running 30 or so displayed hit on Saul. Well, with supports factored in.

Everyone fears silver snipers anyways. At least with supports around he can attempt to fight them.

After chapter 16, however, enemy atk doesn't really go up that much (23-25 atk Steel Lance cavs in chapter 17I, for example), so Saul starts getting just 3RKO'd while Ellen is 2RKO'd forever. Interestingly enough, Silver Lance paladins don't go past 30 atk, so she's actually not at significant risk of getting OHKO'd. Until WLs show up.

Sacae would like to have a word with you, with their nomads able to easily ORKO. 16x2 damage (unless you wanna say she got to level 15 by then) handily kills her.

Now let's factor in avoid. Saul is supportless (or has C or B Ellen or something); Ellen has B Lugh and C Miledy. Saul then has 41.75 avo; Ellen has 54.8 avo. Against those Steel Axe fighters, Ellen faces something ridiculous like 7.4 true hit. She also gives out 10 crit to Lugh and 5 to Miledy and 1 atk to each, improving their offense. Unfortunately, +2 atk and +15 crit on Saul doesn't mask the fact that what Saul's 2RKOs are 3RKOs for her.

Why give her C Miledy? She's off flying, not being near the back lines much. Afraid of giving Saul some love on which he helps her more for longer? They'd have a B by now. With the B support with Ellen, their avoid is based on eachother. They help eachother out. She helps him hit with a bit more oomph and accuracy, but he helps her concretely survive. I wonder which is more beneficial...

Also, why should Saul just be supportless? With his A with Dorothy, he has a bit more oomph, more avoid, bit more defense, but more importantly helps Dorothy suck less (Ellen doesn't even help Lou suck less early on, he's still easy to kill. At least Saul helps Dorothy hit things, and both get more avoid). When Sacae rolls around, Saul's helping her be pretty damn godly. All Ellen does is make Lou be a better backliner.

In summary, Ellen has 3 chapters of availability and supports against Saul's superior offense and defense post-promotion. Though I usually don't believe supports to be very important, I don't think we can write them off so easily like we can for Miledy, because Saul is completely incapable of being a stand-alone unit. It should be noted that with Saul's 4.25 luk on promotion, every enemy usually has listed crit against him, even the 5 crit fighters and armors. I suppose, though, that Goddess Icons aren't in high demand, but Saul needs 3 Goddess Icons before mercs stop having listed crit against him.

That support that helps Lou go form backline fighter to backline fighter? The support she needs from Saul more than he needs hers? This shoots down the fact that Saul has offense and doesn't die just because the enemy feels like he should?

Oh my, the mercs! Nevermind a B with Dorothy, Ellen, or a C with Cecilia makes that problem vanish...mercs aren't even that common. Besides, I'd take this over just being ORKOd indefinitely. Better goddess icons no one cares about than speedwings many beg for.

[Dat Nick]

Or there could be! Remember, 3 uses!

What does 3 uses have to do with the fact that when we open a door, 95% of the time there are not any enemies around? It could have 300 uses and this fact would not change.

[dondon151]

No survivability issues? He's getting easily OHKOd by some brigands, and ORKOd by some nomads. There are plenty of ranged enemies early on (chapter 7 is rather painful with all it's cavaliers, javelins, and those damn wyverns). Lou has to be on the front lines, Saul can just hang back till he's needed. Also at their base, compare his 20 HP and 2 defense to Lou's 16 HP and 3 def.

I don't think you read. Lugh doesn't risk killing himself while attacking unlike units like Wendy, so he doesn't have trouble attacking. Also, I don't understand where people get this "healers don't have to be on the front lines" crap from. To heal another unit, the healer has to be adjacent, i.e. in the exact same position that Lugh will be in. Unless you plan on healing before combat units act, in which case your actions are severely limited because your combat units can't take damage during player phase.

Steel Axe fighters have 25 atk on Saul's joining map. Iron Axe fighters have 22 atk. Saul's not doing better than Lugh against these enemies. Hand Axe brigands borderline miss OHKO on Saul.

3 healers on a map is a tad overkill, don't you think? Besides, there is plenty to heal from obvious damage that will be taken, to HP from a level up. You got plenty of opportunities to heal. Lou doesn't have this kind of open opportunity, especially if he wants to kill somethng. It has to be weakened for him for him to finish, even though it's magic damage.

I always deploy 2 healers on a map minimum. Lugh performing a nonfatal attack yields about the same amount of EXP as a heal, and Lugh is entitled to a few kills.

Sniper mages are hardly numerous enough to be a real threat, you can just heal up whatever damage they do. Most of their situations don't really endanger you to a group of enemies anyways.

This is not true. Chapter 14x, in addition to Ohtz's and the sage's ranges overlapping, the center island has a few enemies, and south of that there are WKs that attack in addition to whatever enemies that may already be there. Chapter 16, the Bolting mage is near a corridor of fighters, mercs, and a bishop. Chapter 16x, the Bolting sage gets you when there are armors and mercs around.

If you are regarding staffs, Barrier is not anywhere near as reliable as maybe Silencing them first, or Sleeping them, or just restoring whatever they do. There's no reason not to milk this thing.

What happens when your healer gets incapacitated? Barrier prevents that from happening. A full strength Barrier increases staff evade by 35, which is huge, especially on units like Clarine and Saul who don't have spectacular res. Using Barrier to ward off 3 Silence uses is better than using 3 Restores for the same thing, especially since it prevents the healer from using Restore on someone else.

B with Ellen and A with Dorothy doesn't sound too unreasonable for then. It's enough to boost it up to a 3HKO. Hell, just a C with Cecilia can do this as well as either of those. Granted, no way that's happening in so short a time, but it's there.

Dorothy's not being used usually and Ellen has supports other than him.

Oh, and nice avoiding the fact they ORKO Ellen, as they can double. 13<17 by four.

Wrong, on three levels. First, mercs have 15-16 AS. Second, 13.6 does not equal 13, nor does it equal 14. If mercs had 17 AS, Ellen would not be ORKO'd about 1.5 times more often than she would be ORKO'd (can't be assed to check the actual percentages but these should be about right). Third, if Ellen gains levels over the course of the chapter, her speed has more chances to gain a point.

Those knights are also running 30 or so displayed hit on Saul. Well, with supports factored in.

Everyone fears silver snipers anyways. At least with supports around he can attempt to fight them.

What supports? Please don't insinuate that Saul's 32 HP/6.75 def is durable by any means.

Sacae would like to have a word with you, with their nomads able to easily ORKO. 16x2 damage (unless you wanna say she got to level 15 by then) handily kills her.

The reason I didn't bring up Sacae was that I didn't have saves for those chapters and I don't have information regarding nomads, so please present it or else I can't take this seriously.

Why give her C Miledy? She's off flying, not being near the back lines much.

Miledy needs to heal as well. In addition, 20 +2 is a fast support that cancels out move disparity.

Afraid of giving Saul some love on which he helps her more for longer?

No, because it somewhat defeats the point of a comparison if they support each other, and it also reinforces the idea that Saul needs Ellen around, which doesn't help your argument.

She helps him hit with a bit more oomph and accuracy, but he helps her concretely survive. I wonder which is more beneficial...

First, Saul doesn't need hit because light is accurate. Second, Saul doesn't need atk because he's not hitting ORKO thresholds and his damage output is pretty good already. Third, +1 defense does not help Ellen at all. Saul's support is completely self-serving. Ellen's support gives atk and crit to units that need it.

Also, why should Saul just be supportless? With his A with Dorothy, he has a bit more oomph, more avoid, bit more defense, but more importantly helps Dorothy suck less (Ellen doesn't even help Lou suck less early on, he's still easy to kill. At least Saul helps Dorothy hit things, and both get more avoid). When Sacae rolls around, Saul's helping her be pretty damn godly. All Ellen does is make Lou be a better backliner.

If Saul needs that support, he's forcing a crappy unit to be played, which is more detrimental than Ellen forcing two good units to be played. In addition, the only two good things about SaulxDorothy are its speed and full avoid.

SaulxDorothy C, i.e. earlygame, gives 5 avo, 2 cev, and 2 crit. Holy shit, these bonuses suck. Where's the "more oomph" and the "bit more defense?"

Higher levels give a whopping maximum of +1 atk and +1 def. Luckily it barely erases Saul's problem of always facing a crit rate, but again, we're increasing Saul's chance to not get instantly killed by fielding a terrible unit.

That support that helps Lou go form backline fighter to backline fighter? The support she needs from Saul more than he needs hers? This shoots down the fact that Saul has offense and doesn't die just because the enemy feels like he should?

First, I did not deny anything about Saul's offense or defense.

Second, Reikken thoroughly countered your point about offensive supports being unnecessary in FE6.

Third, Saul's offense is greatly hindered by the fact that he's 2RKO'd by everything with listed crit rates.

Oh my, the mercs! Nevermind a B with Dorothy, Ellen, or a C with Cecilia makes that problem vanish...mercs aren't even that common. Besides, I'd take this over just being ORKOd indefinitely. Better goddess icons no one cares about than speedwings many beg for.

All of those supports reduce the listed crit to 1 most of the time. All of those supports are also in question. Ellen is not ORKO'd indefinitely; the only things that ORKO her are also things that hit her less than 1 in 14 times, even less if she has more supports.

Edited June 26, 2009 by dondon151

[grandjackal]

I don't think you read. Lugh doesn't risk killing himself while attacking unlike units like Wendy, so he doesn't have trouble attacking. Also, I don't understand where people get this "healers don't have to be on the front lines" crap from. To heal another unit, the healer has to be adjacent, i.e. in the exact same position that Lugh will be in. Unless you plan on healing before combat units act, in which case your actions are severely limited because your combat units can't take damage during player phase.

The point is that Lou has to be within reachable distance, healers have the luxury here.

Steel Axe fighters have 25 atk on Saul's joining map. Iron Axe fighters have 22 atk. Saul's not doing better than Lugh against these enemies. Hand Axe brigands borderline miss OHKO on Saul.

Chapter 6 has no axers, try again.

In fact, neither does chapter 7. Or 8.

I always deploy 2 healers on a map minimum. Lugh performing a nonfatal attack yields about the same amount of EXP as a heal, and Lugh is entitled to a few kills.

There are many more people entitled to kills than just Lou, and Saul has more available people to heal in reach than Lou does people to kill.

2 healers is reasonable, but 3 pure healers is overkill.

This is not true. Chapter 14x, in addition to Ohtz's and the sage's ranges overlapping, the center island has a few enemies, and south of that there are WKs that attack in addition to whatever enemies that may already be there. Chapter 16, the Bolting mage is near a corridor of fighters, mercs, and a bishop. Chapter 16x, the Bolting sage gets you when there are armors and mercs around.

Unless you're purposefully put units in where they overlap where they start, this problem should not ever arise. You got paladins, you got fliers. They can race in and slam the first bolter, then only one guy is a problem, that being the boss. These units are tough as is, I think they can take a couple shots after a single bolting.

Outside of that though, this ignores the fact you only really need 2 uses of barrier for this. This leaves you plenty more use to abuse.

What happens when your healer gets incapacitated? Barrier prevents that from happening. A full strength Barrier increases staff evade by 35, which is huge, especially on units like Clarine and Saul who don't have spectacular res. Using Barrier to ward off 3 Silence uses is better than using 3 Restores for the same thing, especially since it prevents the healer from using Restore on someone else.

No, it just lessens the chances. You're better off just incapacitating them first. Barrier can be used and still fail, where you'll need those 3 restore staffs regardless. Another thing is that most likely, staffers are possibly the last people they'll target, thanks to their extreme resistance.

Dorothy's not being used usually and Ellen has supports other than him.

Dorothy greatly benefits from Saul. Ellen's supports have the problem of not being around her often.

Wrong, on three levels. First, mercs have 15-16 AS. Second, 13.6 does not equal 13, nor does it equal 14. If mercs had 17 AS, Ellen would not be ORKO'd about 1.5 times more often than she would be ORKO'd (can't be assed to check the actual percentages but these should be about right). Third, if Ellen gains levels over the course of the chapter, her speed has more chances to gain a point.

Someone's played a bit too much RD and PoR. They have 18 speed on average, and 9 con. Most likely wielding steel swords, it reduces their speed by 1 to 17. Steel swords weigh 10 in Elibe, not 12.

She has to be around level 20/5 to avoid this, while Saul can avoid this before promotion.

What supports? Please don't insinuate that Saul's 32 HP/6.75 def is durable by any means.

It isn't tanky, but 2RKO-3RKO possibilities is better than ORKO-2RKO possibilities. Hell, that durability in Sacae is 4RKO, where she gets...simply murdered by the most comon enemy types.

The reason I didn't bring up Sacae was that I didn't have saves for those chapters and I don't have information regarding nomads, so please present it or else I can't take this seriously.

Gladly!

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Miledy needs to heal as well. In addition, 20 +2 is a fast support that cancels out move disparity.

Two things.

1. It doesn't have to be Ellen healing her every time she comes back with a booboo.

2. This situation can occur where you start the turn, someone heals, then she flies off.

No, because it somewhat defeats the point of a comparison if they support each other, and it also reinforces the idea that Saul needs Ellen around, which doesn't help your argument.

Grk...

First, Saul doesn't need hit because light is accurate. Second, Saul doesn't need atk because he's not hitting ORKO thresholds and his damage output is pretty good already. Third, +1 defense does not help Ellen at all. Saul's support is completely self-serving. Ellen's support gives atk and crit to units that need it.

So what you're saying is Saul doesn't need her help and no support's gonna fix problems she has?

If Saul needs that support, he's forcing a crappy unit to be played, which is more detrimental than Ellen forcing two good units to be played. In addition, the only two good things about SaulxDorothy are its speed and full avoid.

Don't forget hit, the last thing I wanna do with the earlygame wyverns is miss when I'm aiming a steel bolt at 'em.

SaulxDorothy C, i.e. earlygame, gives 5 avo, 2 cev, and 2 crit. Holy shit, these bonuses suck. Where's the "more oomph" and the "bit more defense?"

It comes with the B, in case you were thinking most other supports are better at a C. Once again, 5 hit is helpful still, and I guess you can plop 2 crit on the short bow.

Higher levels give a whopping maximum of +1 atk and +1 def. Luckily it barely erases Saul's problem of always facing a crit rate, but again, we're increasing Saul's chance to not get instantly killed by fielding a terrible unit.

K then. Let's not field her. Sure, it's a chance, but it's better than some units being capable of just outright killing Ellen every time. Either way, both shouldn't get targeted much anyways, where Saul's doubling prowess gives him the greater advantage.

First, I did not deny anything about Saul's offense or defense.

Second, Reikken thoroughly countered your point about offensive supports being unnecessary in FE6.

Third, Saul's offense is greatly hindered by the fact that he's 2RKO'd by everything with listed crit rates.

Ok

Yes, offensive supports are good in this game, now tell me this. Is offense Lou's problem? No, it is not.

It's better than not doubling, and being one rounded by some things regardless. It's a risk with Saul, it's a definite with Ellen.

All of those supports reduce the listed crit to 1 most of the time. All of those supports are also in question. Ellen is not ORKO'd indefinitely; the only things that ORKO her are also things that hit her less than 1 in 14 times, even less if she has more supports.

Fastforward to chapter 21, where the 40 ATK wyvern lords OHKO her no matter what, end of story. Next chapter some heroes have 20 AS. Unless she's level 17 by then, they ORKO her. Saul avoids the OHKO by 20/5, and has been able to avoid the double from heroes since promotion, both considered without supports. In fact, at level 20/13, far more reasonable than Ellen at 20/17, he can actually double said heroes, and they're the fastest enemies on the map.

You were saying?

Edited June 26, 2009 by Pretty Boi Wolf

[Mekkah]

Let's stop getting caught up in details and stick to the main point. Come on.

Killer weapons aren't even the biggest threat to Saul, because almost anyone can get critted by them, including people like Lugh and stuff. What is dangerous for Saul is things with just enough crit to have a low but existent chance of dying.

[dondon151]

The point is that Lou has to be within reachable distance, healers have the luxury here.

Lugh hides behind 1 range frontliners and Saul stands behind 1 range frontliners to do something. The difference is here, but it's small.

Chapter 6 has no axers, try again.

In fact, neither does chapter 7. Or 8.

Oops, I thought you recruited Saul in the village, but in fact he just runs away for the chapter. Actually, for when both Saul and Lugh exist, neither are OHKO'd, because the only enemies capable of doing that to either are fighters and brigands.

There are many more people entitled to kills than just Lou, and Saul has more available people to heal in reach than Lou does people to kill.

My point was that Lugh's kill EXP more than makes up for the deficit in nonfatal EXP, meaning that both gain levels at at least the same rate.

Unless you're purposefully put units in where they overlap where they start, this problem should not ever arise. You got paladins, you got fliers. They can race in and slam the first bolter, then only one guy is a problem, that being the boss. These units are tough as is, I think they can take a couple shots after a single bolting.

Wrong. Ohtz has a whopping 33 atk. This wipes out 88% of 18/0 Alan's HP, 91% of 18/0 Lance's HP, and 69% of 15/0 Miledy's HP. There are a bunch of enemies that start out in that area, though I'm not sure how many of them move. The only one that can feasibly take a couple shots after a single Bolting is Miledy (attesting to her awesomeness).

Outside of that though, this ignores the fact you only really need 2 uses of barrier for this. This leaves you plenty more use to abuse.

You ignored the chapter 16 and 16x examples, and there are numerous instances later on. Barrier also lets thieves survive Bolting instead of being instantly killed. Let's not forget about Lalum either, who still needs to be at about 8/-- to survive a 30 atk Bolting with max Barrier.

No, it just lessens the chances. You're better off just incapacitating them first. Barrier can be used and still fail, where you'll need those 3 restore staffs regardless. Another thing is that most likely, staffers are possibly the last people they'll target, thanks to their extreme resistance.

"Just lessens the chances" is extremely vague and shows that you didn't bother researching your numbers.

20/2 Clarine (or Saul) has 16 res. A Silence sage from 16x has 20 mag and 14 skl. Assuming that the guy uses Silence from 15 range, he has 53 displayed hit on Clarine. Using Barrier on Clarine reduces displayed hit to 11. In true hit terms, that's 56.29 down to 2.53, or a 53.76-fold decrease in the chance that Clarine will be silenced. For Ellen, who has 20.4 res at 20/2, +5 res or higher turns displayed hit to 0.

Dorothy greatly benefits from Saul. Ellen's supports have the problem of not being around her often.

Dorothy gets +1 atk, +1 def, and full avoid. In addition to the latter two bonuses not mattering much (since Dorothy shouldn't see enemy phase action assuming efficient play), you have to show me how +1 atk hits numerous ORKO/2RKO thresholds in order to justify the claim that Dorothy greatly benefits from Saul.

Someone's played a bit too much RD and PoR. They have 18 speed on average, and 9 con. Most likely wielding steel swords, it reduces their speed by 1 to 17. Steel swords weigh 10 in Elibe, not 12.

The save I have of chapter 16 has 16-17 speed mercs, and I trust my saves.

It isn't tanky, but 2RKO-3RKO possibilities is better than ORKO-2RKO possibilities. Hell, that durability in Sacae is 4RKO, where she gets...simply murdered by the most comon enemy types.

Who cares if it "isn't tanky?" Being 2-3RKO'd means that you have to be extremely careful with placement on enemy phase in a game where enemies come at your in groups of 3-5 at a time. This actually means Saul's making the phase less efficient by preventing someone else who's doing better than 2-3RKO'd doing the counterattacks. If you're Miledy, not supporting other team members is not a problem. If you're Saul, not supporting other team members is relatively a huge disadvantage.

Gladly!

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Thanks, and Ellen sucks a lot more in Sacae. Though I should point out that your average nomad has only about a 50/50 chance to OHKO a 20/7 Ellen (according to averages she barely survives).

Two things.

1. It doesn't have to be Ellen healing her every time she comes back with a booboo.

2. This situation can occur where you start the turn, someone heals, then she flies off.

This doesn't discount all possibilities, and they only need 20 turns adjacent for a C.

So what you're saying is Saul doesn't need her help and no support's gonna fix problems she has?

Yes, that's what I'm saying. I'm also saying that Ellen's supports are totally outgoing while Saul doesn't want to support Ellen because IcexWind is trash.

Don't forget hit, the last thing I wanna do with the earlygame wyverns is miss when I'm aiming a steel bolt at 'em.

It's 5 hit, which makes a small difference.

It comes with the B, in case you were thinking most other supports are better at a C. Once again, 5 hit is helpful still, and I guess you can plop 2 crit on the short bow.

A B support won't happen earlygame and +1 atk and +1 def doesn't qualify as whatever you made it out to be.

By the way, this problem has been bugging me. If Lugh and Saul can't be positioned similarly, then how does DorothyxSaul build support points?

K then. Let's not field her. Sure, it's a chance, but it's better than some units being capable of just outright killing Ellen every time. Either way, both shouldn't get targeted much anyways, where Saul's doubling prowess gives him the greater advantage.

OK, so you concede that Saul doesn't get a support (which I believe is the better option here anyway), and you're back to summarizing square one.

I already said before that Ellen is only at risk of OHKO from Steel Axe fighters who have something like 7 true hit.

Yes, offensive supports are good in this game, now tell me this. Is offense Lou's problem? No, it is not.

Let's take a sample 41 HP/2 res fighter from chapter 16. 20/1 Lugh has 21.6 atk with Thunder, which just misses the ORKO. With Ellen's help, it's sealed.

Or, a sample 40 HP/4 res cavalier from chapter 17I. 20/3 Lugh has 22.4 atk with Thunder, which ORKOs with B Ellen.

Or, a sample 46 HP/9 res paladin from that same chapter. 20/3 Lugh needs B Ellen to have a chance at OHKO with a crit.

It's better than not doubling, and being one rounded by some things regardless. It's a risk with Saul, it's a definite with Ellen.

At least for Ellen, you know what you can die against. I'm not denying Saul's offensive lead.

Fastforward to chapter 21, where the 40 ATK wyvern lords OHKO her no matter what, end of story. Next chapter some heroes have 20 AS. Unless she's level 17 by then, they ORKO her. Saul avoids the OHKO by 20/5, and has been able to avoid the double from heroes since promotion, both considered without supports. In fact, at level 20/13, far more reasonable than Ellen at 20/17, he can actually double said heroes, and they're the fastest enemies on the map.

I don't have lategame saves, but I seriously doubt that these enemies constitute a large percentage of enemies on the map. Regardless, Saul's lategame trounces Ellen's, but she has a better midgame where her supporting capabilities exceed whatever Saul has, and there's no denying the full 3 4 chapter earlygame advantage that Ellen has.

When I first pulled up the 20/1 averages, I was almost convinced that Saul>Ellen by virtue of his performance lategame. I'm more or less just playing devil's advocate because I sit on neither side of the fence and it seems like this argument needs to be explored. I'm actually not too sure what can cancel out Ellen's 4 chapter earlygame lead, which is incredibly significant due to how much healing is in demand.

[Quasar]

Ellen can get Lugh. And as for Saul getting Dorothy...*glances at tier list* I doubt it. And again, all of Saul's supports except for Dorothy and lolYodel are 1+1.

EllenxLugh might get C snappy but beyond that we're looking at a long way to go. Ellen has to heal things and Lugh has to attack. Combined with +1 per turn.. yeah.

Not quite true. Saul has 18 atk and 18.75 AS at 20/1, which 2RKOs quite a lot.

[Regarding Saul's offense]It's true he has raw power but you need to limit his exposure and therefore effectiveness to kill things due him being frail. Nice job on looking at Ellen's survivability, I was on lazy mode myself.

2 healers is reasonable, but 3 pure healers is overkill.

Fastforward to chapter 21, where the 40 ATK wyvern lords OHKO her no matter what, end of story. Next chapter some heroes have 20 AS. Unless she's level 17 by then, they ORKO her. Saul avoids the OHKO by 20/5, and has been able to avoid the double from heroes since promotion, both considered without supports. In fact, at level 20/13, far more reasonable than Ellen at 20/17, he can actually double said heroes, and they're the fastest enemies on the map.

You do realize that you're saying that Ellen/Saul might not have a place on the team for Clarine taking one of the two healing spots? Bringing your only mage Lugh over a physical attacker makes all kinds of sense.

21 is disgusting for for Ellen. For all weaker characters I guess. I wouldn't bring Ellen to this chapter at all, maybe not even Saul but at least his demise from a single hit is an unlucky break. Luckily 21 is pretty much the worst case scenario.

Edit:

I don't have lategame saves, but I seriously doubt that these enemies constitute a large percentage of enemies on the map. Regardless, Saul's lategame trounces Ellen's, but she has a better midgame where her supporting capabilities exceed whatever Saul has, and there's no denying the full 3 4 chapter earlygame advantage that Ellen has.

A large percentage, no, because there's like a hundred guys on the map but there's plenty. If I recall correctly at least one comes per turn as a reinforcement, maybe more. Plus the ones on map to begin with.

Edited June 26, 2009 by Quasar