Efficiency Tier List?

[Quasar]

I can agree on principle but will have to disagree on this case. The early chapters aren't flooded with enemies, give or take the one with Erik, so you don't have to protect him that much. Either way it doesn't matter since you can just let him die and nothing of value was lost. Taking a hit for someone useful=being useful.

[Dat Nick]

Jackal countered this on IM with "we can just let Walt die when he's forced", which is fair game to me as it's not like we're going to be using him later.

edt: o wait, that was mentioned

Edited July 16, 2009 by Norton Sez What?

[Mekkah]

Karel has 0 utility for almost every single chapter in the game, and then he is hardly positive when he's actually there: lock to swords in his joining chapter means obvious issues against Snipers, Druids and Wyverns. For final chapter performance, considering how many people can S swords so easily and have either more move or existing supports, bringing him there just means not bringing something else. Hell, _Wolt_ is better in the final than Karel, because he doesn't take a counter from Mamkutes, and Miugre isn't likely to be used by someone else (and don't worry about not doubling). Obviously Dorothy is better than him when they're both there, too.

Of course, Dorothy builds up suck before he joins, so it's not as clearcut but...please don't be so hasty on moving up Karel or putting people below him. He really is a worthless pile of shit, despite what IS tries to tell you.

[Dat Nick]

Karel has 0 utility for almost every single chapter in the game

0 utility>negative utility, which is the primary argument

and then he is hardly positive when he's actually there: lock to swords in his joining chapter means obvious issues against Snipers, Druids and Wyverns.

On the flip side, we couldn't really give less of a shit about his well being since it's not like we're bringing him to final, so we're free to kamikaze him or have him bait wyverns or something like that. He doesn't do anything except contribute, I don't see how this doesn't make him better than failures like Dorothy and Sue who suck for over half the game and generally offer hideously poor returns for all that effort. They're more trouble than they're worth. Karel isn't, he comes with no trouble put in. He doesn't contribute much either, but that's why he's not upper mid or even lower mid.

Karel wasn't moved up above Walt anyway, because Walt actually has some positive utility due to being a forced slot for four chapters.

He really is a worthless pile of shit, despite what IS tries to tell you.

And Sue and Dorothy aren't?

[Quasar]

Karel has 0 utility for almost every single chapter in the game, and then he is hardly positive when he's actually there: lock to swords in his joining chapter means obvious issues against Snipers, Druids and Wyverns. For final chapter performance, considering how many people can S swords so easily and have either more move or existing supports, bringing him there just means not bringing something else. Hell, _Wolt_ is better in the final than Karel, because he doesn't take a counter from Mamkutes, and Miugre isn't likely to be used by someone else (and don't worry about not doubling). Obviously Dorothy is better than him when they're both there, too.

Of course, Dorothy builds up suck before he joins, so it's not as clearcut but...please don't be so hasty on moving up Karel or putting people below him. He really is a worthless pile of shit, despite what IS tries to tell you.

Hm. With the low unit count in the last chapter and the horde of sword users you do have a point. So he's basically got one chapter too. I still think Wolt should go back at least. And that Kenny G is unnecessary.

Edit: @Norton Sez Wat? - I do agree with what you're saying but technically Dorothy's got one chapter too where her shooting is actually decent. Sue is of course Sue.

Edited July 16, 2009 by Quasar

[dondon151]

Being forced =/= being useful. If Walt injures something but needs protection in return, he's hurting efficiency more than he's helping it. Or if we get him to attack in situations where the protection comes naturally, his attacking will be rare enough that he might as well be contributing nothing.

And if Wolt does damage to something but doesn't need protection in return, he's contributing to efficiency. The easy way to make his existence positive is to not attack with him when doing so would require protection.

[Shadow Mir]

And if Wolt does damage to something but doesn't need protection in return, he's contributing to efficiency. The easy way to make his existence positive is to not attack with him when doing so would require protection.

In that case, he's attacking so rarely, he could essentially be considered to be contributing nothing.

[dondon151]

I am sure that the majority of the time that Wolt is attacking, he requires no special protection in any way.

[Quasar]

If you don't believe Wolt can shoot things without intense care try it out yourselves. It's not that far in the game. Around chapter 4 you're already free to take some higher risks with him. (Skip this sentence if this argument is coming out from your ears already) If he dies, it's cool. You didn't lose anything except a bow, he took a hit for someone useful and was positive utility up to that point.

Going further into negative utility if the horrible ones want to minimize the damage they do for the team they'll stay away after joining. As useless as Sophia is for combat she does earn the team a much-needed Guiding Ring and as Sue as Sue is she recruits Shin. Actually having to field Sue could be considered against Shin for that chapter. Either way this isn't ranked so funds isn't an issue but a Guiding Ring is a Guiding Ring. One could argue it's better than the damage Dorothy does in Ch6 as Sophia probably will just sit back at the desert.

[A2ZOMG]

Sweet, a C support that's absolutely useless (sweet, we got Wolt 5 hit), and a support with someone who has generally no business being anywhere near Wolt.

I'd also hardly call a time of availability of having the worst offensive output on the team outside of freaking Merlinus as thoroughly unimpressive.

5 hit does make a pretty big difference since that could be close to double that in terms of real hit when hitrates are low (like with Steel).

And then you also should keep in mind that Walt is Roy's earliest C support option. So Walt some of the time is actually getting +10 hit from his supports. Pretty good since that will get your hitrates up to the 70s when you have Steel on those Wyverns. C Walt has more advantages like giving Roy an evade and half defense bonus (which takes effect when Lance gets a C with Roy).

The worst offensive output on the team goes to Ward and Bors anyway. And then a few other units like Chad and Thany also have trouble doing damage to bulky cavaliers too.

As for that level lead? I'd hardly consider he'd be above level 5 by the time she shows up, at which point they're nigh identical, and from there on her 5% better speed and 10% better strength along with actually existing supports taking her off beyond Wolt's utterly retarded defensive advantages. Seriously, an archer concentrating on defense is mind-numbingly stupid.Then consider I had to give 4 levels to a unit who has been busy sucking up until then to still end up a generally worse version of her (her potential and supports>him not having those) of her? No thanks.

Walt should be level 8 by the time chapter 6 rolls around. Training him if anything is quite easy when you consider that his damage is enough to kill anything that Marcus doubles. Marcus isn't always using all 8 of his move either.

C Marcus not only makes him better, it makes Marcus better too. That 5 evade and 1 defense is very attractive if you are going to tank stuff earlygame. And that 5 hit starts looking very helpful when you start wielding Javelins, Handaxes, and other non-iron weapons.

She'll have more skill than him by then with identical luck, and a support that actually gives a shit to be around her, Dorothy is hte one with the advantage here...

Level 8 Walt (with supports) vs Level 5 Dorothy (she hasn't yet hit C Saul, but this could happen in the middle of Chapter 7).

Walt Steel Bow C Marcus C Roy

15.8 atk, 5.8 AS, 92.2 hit, 5.5 crit - - 26.4 avo, 23.6 hp, 6.4 def, 1.7 res, 11.8 critavo

Dorothy Steel Bow

15.0 atk, 4.9 AS, 80.4 hit, 3.2 crit - - 13.5 avo, 20.7 hp, 4.3 def, 2.3 res, 3.7 critavo

Clearly Walt is better earlygame, and should be used over Dorothy earlygame if you need an Archer.

The only reason why Dorthy would be better is mid-lategame when her good support with Saul (and maybe one with another random dude) kicks in and the level lead between her and Walt diminishes, but fielding her earlygame always means taking away a better unit from your team (since quite frankly...you don't need more than one archer earlygame. Mid to late game maybe).

Edited July 16, 2009 by A2ZOMG

[Dat Nick]

Walt's already higher than Dorothy, and none of it has to do with being better statistically. It's because he's forced for four chapters and then can just be dropped and can say he's contributed positively.

[Mekkah]

Karel vs Dorothy/Sue/Walt is exactly weighing their negative/positive contributions. While the latter three sure are shit, they might also be compensating it at some point, at the very least at the final due to 2-range + bownopoly (+move) >>>> Karel's situation.

To me putting Karel above anyone with significant availability is like putting Nasir above them. Like how Nasir used to be above Mia in the FE9 tier list.

[Dat Nick]

Karel vs Dorothy/Sue/Walt is exactly weighing their negative/positive contributions. While the latter three sure are shit, they might also be compensating it at some point, at the very least at the final due to 2-range + bownopoly (+move)

It takes longer than you think it does.

Walt averages 15 AS at 20/1, for instance, which is awful. All the bownopoly in the world isn't going to do anything about that.

While the latter three sure are shit, they might also be compensating it at some point,

They would have to be freaking godlike to compensate for their suckage for over half the game, and...well, they're not, all they do is get raped by any unit worth a damn less.

To me putting Karel above anyone with significant availability is like putting Nasir above them.

okay, so let's put this into more understandable terms.

Karel is Nasir, and Dorothy is Rolf. Sound about right?

[Quasar]

Walt is better than Karel, that's a given. Sue I can see as a possibility but Dorothy never becomes any good. Even Sue is pretty god damn questionable with her STR. It's not like you can just pull them out when it's advantageous to you - you leave them behind for a few chapters and they're even worse relatively than they were earlier. Also what's up with no one using Shin (bow monopolies). I don't follow with your Nasir/Mia example I'm afraid, don't have a GC/Wii.

Since there's not enough going on already I'm thinking Wendy could go with Merlinus to his tier. Merlinus is a lot better at taking hits with rebirth than her and helps you stock up at Ch 2.

Edit: God damn you need to stop beating me to these replies. Or I need to get off slack mode and use quote tags.

Edit2: Except that the more I think about it the more certain I am that if things are bought with Merlinus you can't get them off him.

Edited July 17, 2009 by Quasar

[cheetah7071]

Wolt has the undeniable usefulness of being able to finish of enemies Marcus weakened in chapter one if the person you were trying to feed the kill to missed with their attack and you don't want the enemy to go rampaging around. That's better than what Karel's doing (being a third if not lower Durandal user).

If you use Wolt as a serious member of your team, he will accumulate negative utility. But he has positive utility used as a random potshotter in the early chapters, whereas Karel has his utility basically set at zero (slightly negative if you use him for the rest of the game).

EDIT: I'm not even sure why I posted this, it looks like the topic agrees with me anyways. Oh well.

Edited July 17, 2009 by cheetah7071

[Dat Nick]

Since there's not enough going on already I'm thinking Wendy could go with Merlinus to his tier. Merlinus is a lot better at taking hits with rebirth than her and helps you stock up at Ch 2.

I really don't think there's a tier gap between Wendy and Sophia.

[Quasar]

It's probably because you're thinking of someone running around a desert throwing spheres of darkness that hit nothing. If you issue a deeper glance over both you'll see that Wendy is a stationary tin can and Sophia is a moving treasure chest containing a Guiding Ring.

[Florete]

Since there's not enough going on already I'm thinking Wendy could go with Merlinus to his tier. Merlinus is a lot better at taking hits with rebirth than her and helps you stock up at Ch 2.

Wait, that's actually a tier? I took it as "doesn't really fit anywhere on the list but still takes a deployment slot."

[-Cynthia-]

Wait, that's actually a tier? I took it as "doesn't really fit anywhere on the list but still takes a deployment slot."

Yeah I think that tier is mainly there for lulz. Wendy is not a dude in a wagon.

[grandjackal]

It's a joke tier (some loony asked that Merlinus be added to the tier list for some damn reason), and no, Wendy's no part of it.

She has no business there, graveyard is good enough, as it implies what she's busy doing, being a unit better off dead. Merlinus just has no business doing a damn thing.

*AHEM!* Ladies and Gentlemen! I propose a change that may send you all a rage, but hear me out!

Lou has been said to be overrated, and I feel that Lillina might be underrated. With that in mind, I propose this...

Should Lillina and Lou be closer together? I shall post the advantages and disadvantages of both.

Lillina

+Needs less babying (You heard me! To explain. Yes, she is easily killed, but the difference is you have people that can actually protect her now. Lou on the other hand is just as unstellar in his chapters, difference being you don't have enough guys who can safely defend our poor friend. On top of that, she levels faster, thus less kills for more.)

+Forced in the perfect chapter for her (Remember my Treasure Room Trap method for Barth's pursuers? Everyone can do that, but Lillina ALWAYS has the opportunity as she's forced. Due to accuracy of anima, she has no problem abusing these bastards, especially since by the time those enforcements reach the trapping point, you're just getting to Leygence at best. With her low level, and the fact there are 18 enemies (6 Soldiers with no javelins, 6 mercs and 6 archers, and with how retarded the AI is, she will never get attacked by an archer until the other 12 enemies are dead, and she 3RKOs these enemies. Potential is a level per kill), she's leveling pretty damn fast, AND it's a legitimate strategy, as she's walling off enemies from your tail as you try to remove Leygence's ass off the throne).

+Supports that LOVE her (Roy's an instant C, and he's perfectly open for it. 1 ATK, 3 avoid and 5 crit, basically maxing out his attack and possible offense output, along with avoid output. OJ would LOVE more offense, and the B will give him a much needed 1 def he won't get anywhere else save Lalum. He overall gets 3 ATK and 15 crit from her. Overall at C Roy, A OJ? 4 ATK, 20 crit, 2 Def, 3 avoid. Impressive. Most impressive. Also note there is a free C left, which can go to Gonzo. This gives her 5 more crit (maxing it) and 1 more defense, along with 3 more avoid for what it's worth. Gonzales is also a dude who would love friends. What do these people have in common? They're offensive units, who actually appreciate the boost. Will discuss later).

+Psychotically fast supports (seriously, you could also give Gonzales the A rather than OJ, which gives her 1 more defense in exchange for 1 atk, along with 6 more avoid)

+Has no problem waiting for promotion (obviously).

+After promotion, can actually double things

+Does not care about E rank in staffs, as heal alone at base promotion is healing 32 HP.

+Sheer damage and the fact that mamkutes are slow as fuck make her an AMAZING mamkute-slayer.

-Easy as fuck to kill (it doesn't stop till the bridge, of which any sword only class can double and OR her, or steel axers that OHKO her, but with the CC with Roy and OJ she can take a hand axe, and counter no less)

-Support dependent

-Takes a while to double reliably (which she makes up with, and will explain later)

Lou

+Plenty more time to work with, despite being unstellar then as he's forced for 3 chapters (but recieves less experience per kill, along with the fact that you don't exactly have the numbers nor the units willing to wall him off)

+Starts doubling sooner (If he's level 10 by the time Lillina shows up? He won't be doubling anything she isn't except maybe soldiers with javelins (and why are you attacking them with someone who doesn't want counters?). Overall outperforming damage? 2. Then factor in instant C with Roy? 1 damage. Lololololol.)

+Is a bit of a naturalist, and not exactly support-dependent.

-He would still like supports though, and his list happens to blow in reality. He is an offensive support, and he gives it to people who either don't have offensive problems, or shouldn't be in combat in hte first place. Ellen is still easy to kill and risky to have anywhere near where he is (and all she gives him is 9 avoid even though his problem is defensive in nature as well, 9 is not exactly making him a god), Chad shouldn't be brought to every map, and sending fragile Lou to escort him is stupid anyways, lolRayandHue, Miredy is way too fucking slow for the sheer move difference between them.

-His speed might not necessarily make him an offensive juggernaut in comparison (Chapter before Armads gaiden, give him an A Ellen B Chad, give Lillina her instant C Roy and B with OJ, have her be level 15 while he's at level 20. If they wield steel axes, she can ORKO them while he can't. Hand axes, both 2RKO regardless. He can't double the warrior, of which case her sheer damage output is outdoing his by 3 per shot. She can barely 3RKO this guy...)

-Has to deal with competition for the first ring, of which he is easily the worst to consider, as Clarine gets an obvious advantage out of it, and Saul gets to 20 faster. This means he has to wait till the desert to promote. With that same ring, Lillina can be at promotion level as well. With that ring, she starts to double consistently as well, and doubling is doubling.

-His durability is barely any better, and she can close the gap with supports thanks to her defense-boosting support.

I think they deserve to be closer. I mean, Wolt's not getting any love just for earlygame force, look where he is. Lou's not stunning either, and practically on equal levels. By the time he gets to Lillina, he's barely any better, and he's to be 9 goddamn levels above her.

I really do think these two should be closer...Question is, how close?

Edited July 19, 2009 by Pretty Boi Wolf

[cheetah7071]

It's a joke tier (some loony asked that Merlinus be added to the tier list for some damn reason), and no, Wendy's no part of it.

She has no business there, graveyard is good enough, as it implies what she's busy doing, being a unit better off dead. Merlinus just has no business doing a damn thing.

I could actually see Merlinus over Wendy if he were to be seriously tiered. Withdrawing items mid-battle (if only so you can sell your gems/excess promotion items without clogging your inventory) is better than whatever the heck Wendy's doing (i.e., providing a triangle attack for units only marginally better than her in chapter 8).

Sophia the moving treasure chest is probably better than Merlinus though.

[Florete]

If Merlinus were to be tiered seriously, he could probably be above a good deal of people, but he'd also be the most difficult character to find an accurate placement for, no doubt. There's no reason to burden ourselves with tiering him seriously.

[grandjackal]

There is actually a method in training on the chapter Wendy joins on that is a legitimate strategy. Problem is it would barely benefit her at all, and mainly due to how shitty her bases are, and the fact her accuracy plays a problem on it.

You see, chapter 8 has these pesky bastards that tail Barth's group. However, they have a retarded tactic of having their teams lead by archers. Have them follow you into the middle treasure room, and at the right doorway the archer will clog the doorway. Have someone get in front of the doorway, and the soldier and merc will clog the archer's back, as the archer always moves last for the enemy. The rest of the pursuers will flock into the treasure room like animals to the slaughter. If you kill a guy behind the clog archer, another merc or soldier (who has no javelins, only steel) will take their place. This is 12 free potential kills. How is this legitimate? Well Wendy is forced and can easily be there due to starting position (definitely better than where Boris would start...), so she can be one of them, throwing javelins at them. Problem is hitting them...This is more a benefit to Ashtor with the newly aquired Light Brand or Lillina with her accurate anima tomes. The thing these people have in common is they're forced here, so they are garunteed to be here for this strategy. It is still legitimate, because by the time this gets done, you're at best just arriving to fight Leygence. In the time you are killing him, much less reaching him, you could be attacking/killing these bastards. You could say anyone could do this, but these people are garunteed to be here.

Now how does everyone think of my edited post up there for my suggestion? *puts up flame shield*

This could make Wendy a bit more easier to train (not likely), but the fact that she can eventually grow up to resemble a unit. Merlinus on the other hand has no business being on the battlefield.

Edited July 19, 2009 by Pretty Boi Wolf

[Quasar]

You see, chapter 8 has these pesky bastards that tail Barth's group. However, they have a retarded tactic of having their teams lead by archers. Have them follow you into the middle treasure room, and at the right doorway the archer will clog the doorway. Have someone get in front of the doorway, and the soldier and merc will clog the archer's back, as the archer always moves last for the enemy. The rest of the pursuers will flock into the treasure room like animals to the slaughter. If you kill a guy behind the clog archer, another merc or soldier (who has no javelins, only steel) will take their place. This is 12 free potential kills. How is this legitimate? Well Wendy is forced and can easily be there due to starting position (definitely better than where Boris would start...), so she can be one of them, throwing javelins at them. Problem is hitting them...This is more a benefit to Ashtor with the newly aquired Light Brand or Lillina with her accurate anima tomes. The thing these people have in common is they're forced here, so they are garunteed to be here for this strategy. It is still legitimate, because by the time this gets done, you're at best just arriving to fight Leygence. In the time you are killing him, much less reaching him, you could be attacking/killing these bastards. You could say anyone could do this, but these people are garunteed to be here.

I'm not one for flaming but I do have a question. How are the rest of your guys killing Leygence? If my memory serves these are the ones coming from south of the treasure room, right? How are your other troops going to get past the flood of enemies around there?

This could make Wendy a bit more easier to train (not likely), but the fact that she can eventually grow up to resemble a unit. Merlinus on the other hand has no business being on the battlefield.

Why you'd make Merlinus' case easier by giving her a ton of negative utility is beyond me but sure, I'll have it. He's a unit, he takes up a unit slot and can be used for utility purposes. I see no reason not to tier him seriously.

And I'm still suggesting Wolt to go back up to the tier he was dropped from due early use and Sophia to go over at least Dorothy for Guiding Ring.

[grandjackal]

I'm not one for flaming but I do have a question. How are the rest of your guys killing Leygence? If my memory serves these are the ones coming from south of the treasure room, right? How are your other troops going to get past the flood of enemies around there?

This is precisely my point. This is a legitimate strategy, as it keeps guys off your back as you push towards Leygence.

Why you'd make Merlinus' case easier by giving her a ton of negative utility is beyond me but sure, I'll have it. He's a unit, he takes up a unit slot and can be used for utility purposes. I see no reason not to tier him seriously.

What utility? Merchant? Rather pointless utility. If you don't keep your guys well equipped before battle, then restart and do it, why bother sending out a defenseless easily killed unit to do something you should be doing before the battle even starts anyways?

And I'm still suggesting Wolt to go back up to the tier he was dropped from due early use and Sophia to go over at least Dorothy for Guiding Ring.

Dorothy can also be actually useful in a segment of the game, and help someone else be helpful during that segment, that being Sacae, and that guy being Saul.

However, I'm not totally against this, so I'll do it anyways, as you don't have to actually train Sophia to do this.

EDIT: So...no one reacting to my above edited post? The one about Lou?

Edited July 19, 2009 by Pretty Boi Wolf