Efficiency Tier List?

[Quasar]

Ray > Lilina

Garret is also definitely better than at least Lilina. Don't know about Ray.

Base Garret is superior to Lilina in every possible way.

[grandjackal]

The deed is done.

Ray>Garret>Lillina, until further looked into.

[Ether]

Maybe Ward could be > Fa?

I would think being an Earlygame Nuke > Lategame Nuke,especially since Ward has more than 30 attacks.

[grandjackal]

Maybe Ward could be > Fa?

I would think being an Earlygame Nuke > Lategame Nuke,especially since Ward has more than 30 attacks.

...He's already above her.

Edited August 25, 2009 by Robo Ky

[Ether]

Maybe Ward could be > Fa?

I would think being an Earlygame Nuke > Lategame Nuke,especially since Ward has more than 30 attacks.

...He's already above her.

Oh,really...

hmm,how about Geese > OJ.He's not to great before Geese joins,and once they are both together,Geese maintains a durability and strength lead,while their AS stays pretty similar.Geese can also insta promote and avoid being doubled while holding the Brave axe if that appeals to you.

[grandjackal]

Maybe Ward could be > Fa?

I would think being an Earlygame Nuke > Lategame Nuke,especially since Ward has more than 30 attacks.

...He's already above her.

Oh,really...

hmm,how about Geese > OJ.He's not to great before Geese joins,and once they are both together,Geese maintains a durability and strength lead,while their AS stays pretty similar.Geese can also insta promote and avoid being doubled while holding the Brave axe if that appeals to you.

Western isles is littered with Axemen for OJ to WTA, OJ can actually double things, Geese isn't doubling and on top of it, he has hit issues. Hit issues that actually matter, you'd be hard pressed to see displayed hit above mid 60's until lancers start showing up.

It's far easier to get OJ trained up than Geese, I can tell ya.

[Ether]

Maybe Ward could be > Fa?

I would think being an Earlygame Nuke > Lategame Nuke,especially since Ward has more than 30 attacks.

...He's already above her.

Oh,really...

hmm,how about Geese > OJ.He's not to great before Geese joins,and once they are both together,Geese maintains a durability and strength lead,while their AS stays pretty similar.Geese can also insta promote and avoid being doubled while holding the Brave axe if that appeals to you.

Western isles is littered with Axemen for OJ to WTA, OJ can actually double things, Geese isn't doubling and on top of it, he has hit issues. Hit issues that actually matter, you'd be hard pressed to see displayed hit above mid 60's until lancers start showing up.

It's far easier to get OJ trained up than Geese, I can tell ya.

OJ and Geese have the same base AS,and OJ only has 2/3 chapters to pull ahead,only gaining a point every ~2 levels.

If his hit issues are really bad,he can switch to Iron,Bal's saves don't work for me so I'm using your site,but accept against mercs he will have at least 65 hit,if he seals he gets + 8 hit right there.,it's not reliable,but atleast it's better than Gonzales.

He still has 9 Hp and 4 Def over base OJ,I dunno what level to put OJ at right now,but the Def lead is still intact if he hasn't hit level 8,and he needs to be around level 13 to match Geese' HP.

Heck,sealing Geese gives him 90 Hit with his brave Axe.It's not great,but he is guaranteed 2 chances to hit,and 23 Att with it lets him due some pretty good damage.

[grandjackal]

Maybe Ward could be > Fa?

I would think being an Earlygame Nuke > Lategame Nuke,especially since Ward has more than 30 attacks.

...He's already above her.

Oh,really...

hmm,how about Geese > OJ.He's not to great before Geese joins,and once they are both together,Geese maintains a durability and strength lead,while their AS stays pretty similar.Geese can also insta promote and avoid being doubled while holding the Brave axe if that appeals to you.

Western isles is littered with Axemen for OJ to WTA, OJ can actually double things, Geese isn't doubling and on top of it, he has hit issues. Hit issues that actually matter, you'd be hard pressed to see displayed hit above mid 60's until lancers start showing up.

It's far easier to get OJ trained up than Geese, I can tell ya.

OJ and Geese have the same base AS,and OJ only has 2/3 chapters to pull ahead,only gaining a point every ~2 levels.

If his hit issues are really bad,he can switch to Iron,Bal's saves don't work for me so I'm using your site,but accept against mercs he will have at least 65 hit,if he seals he gets + 8 hit right there.,it's not reliable,but atleast it's better than Gonzales.

He still has 9 Hp and 4 Def over base OJ,I dunno what level to put OJ at right now,but the Def lead is still intact if he hasn't hit level 8,and he needs to be around level 13 to match Geese' HP.

Heck,sealing Geese gives him 90 Hit with his brave Axe.It's not great,but he is guaranteed 2 chances to hit,and 23 Att with it lets him due some pretty good damage.

1. OJ has a MUCH lighter weapon type to work with, and is not a negative in those parts. He can armorslay, axers have a hard tie hitting him, can at least double steel axer pirates by the time they arrive to the isles...

2. Do keep in mind that's a 65 displayed for a single attack, as he is not doubling a damn thing. It might be the same for Gonzales, but Gonzales is either 5 levels lower, or able to be promoted off the bat. Speaking of which, OJ is quite lower leveled than Geese, meaning he has a greater leveling speed.

3. True as that is, the isles are of little meaning to him due to axers having a hard as hell of a time hitting him. It becomes a far growing advantage due to OJ's leveling speed and nifty luck and speed growths. I can say Geese is probably quite a bit better post promotion, but OJ can make up for the natural durability Geese has with his high avoid and weapon choice.

Seeing as Lillina is rising, OJ might have something Geese won't for a good while, a support with Lillina. WindxLight is a pretty decent combo, seeing as OJ doesn't really need even more avoid. By the time an avoid support kicked in, he's got high luck, speed and weapon choice anyways. At least Lillina gives him a tidbit of defense on top of it all, along with killer offensive boosts. I should mention OJ's skill is pretty nifty too. With high skill, luck and a hit boosting affinity, I would be surprised if he missed with anything save like a hand axe against nomads in Sacae.

Problem with the brave axe is that he NEEDS a weapon any axe user with the rank can use, and there is plenty. I mean, we go Bartre route? Geese sure as hell ain't getting it. Then what about Ward? By now, Ward is hitting a fuckload harder than he is, and probably with far better hit due to existing supports and a hit boosting affinity. Acc might not be too important, but it's more important here than in most games, save probably FE10. On top of it, what if he misses? Great chance he would actually get doubled, due to Geese's con being very under par for an axeman.

Edited August 25, 2009 by Robo Ky

[dondon151]

I don't think Geese can ORKO enemies with a Brave Axe, which means that he will always be countered unless the enemy is already weakened (and even then he may miss a hit), and he gets doubled by a lot of enemies with his 4 base AS.

[grandjackal]

I don't think Geese can ORKO enemies with a Brave Axe, which means that he will always be countered unless the enemy is already weakened (and even then he may miss a hit), and he gets doubled by a lot of enemies with his 4 base AS.

He can ORKO at least pirates, which leaves a bit of leeway, since axers can be pretty touch compared to like..mages and archers. Otherwise it's mercs and cavs. Cavs are too tough, mercs I wouldn't want Geese fighting anyways.

Rest of your point is valid though.

Edited August 25, 2009 by Robo Ky

[dondon151]

Pirates stop showing up altogether after Geese's joining map, however. The next ones are in chapter 14x which is quite a ways off.

Gonzales I recall is barely ORKOing fighters and brigands at base with Iron Axe, and that has 4 more atk than Geese with Brave Axe.

ATTN Quasar: I need you to reupload those saves and send them to me.

Edited August 25, 2009 by dondon151

[grandjackal]

In which case, I see no reason to raise Geese at all. If Geese moves anywhere, cances are the only direction he'll be going is down.

[Quasar]

I'd like to think Dorothy is better than Karel but 20/7 Dorothy is strictly inferior to join Karel. Since I can't say with good conscience she's doing anything worth mentioning the early game it would have to rely on her doing things mid game where Karel can't compete. I'll look to it more once I've had some coffee.

They're reuploaded.

Also see FE8 tier list for a perfect example why I was being an ass about having rules.

[grandjackal]

I'd like to think Dorothy is better than Karel but 20/7 Dorothy is strictly inferior to join Karel. Since I can't say with good conscience she's doing anything worth mentioning the early game it would have to rely on her doing things mid game where Karel can't compete. I'll look to it more once I've had some coffee.

They're reuploaded.

Also see FE8 tier list for a perfect example why I was being an ass about having rules.

Hey, I needed rules so it's all cool.

Anyways, as for Dorothy vs Karel...It would depend on basically Sacae performance at least, as that's where snipers are at their "best"

[Dat Nick]

I thought Walt>Karel>Dorothy was already agreed on...

[dondon151]

I don't agree on Wolt > Dorothy in the first place.

[grandjackal]

With this new idea of you can't be a negative if you have 2 range, only so bad offensively you can't give much positive either to the point you might as well not be around deal, it might not be the case...Again.

I still wouldn't put Dorothy over Walt ever though. Just this is contestable with the new thought process. Dorothy and Karel I mean.

Edited August 26, 2009 by Robo Ky

[Florete]

With this new idea of you can't be a negative if you have 2 range, only so bad offensively you can't give much positive either to the point you might as well not be around deal, it might not be the case...Again.

Eh? Did I miss something? How the hell does that work? What if our Archer is bad durably and needs to be walled in, on top of having mediocre/bad offense? Is sure as hell wouldn't call that positive in any way. And if that's how you think, that'll favor everyone with 2 range, because then everyone can make potshots from behind unless they're locked to Swords.

[Ether]

With this new idea of you can't be a negative if you have 2 range, only so bad offensively you can't give much positive either to the point you might as well not be around deal, it might not be the case...Again.

Eh? Did I miss something? How the hell does that work? What if our Archer is bad durably and needs to be walled in, on top of having mediocre/bad offense? Is sure as hell wouldn't call that positive in any way. And if that's how you think, that'll favor everyone with 2 range, because then everyone can make potshots from behind unless they're locked to Swords.

maybe it`s an attempt to bring up Klein > Fir again...

[grandjackal]

With this new idea of you can't be a negative if you have 2 range, only so bad offensively you can't give much positive either to the point you might as well not be around deal, it might not be the case...Again.

Eh? Did I miss something? How the hell does that work? What if our Archer is bad durably and needs to be walled in, on top of having mediocre/bad offense? Is sure as hell wouldn't call that positive in any way. And if that's how you think, that'll favor everyone with 2 range, because then everyone can make potshots from behind unless they're locked to Swords.

With range, you are easy to defend regardless, as there is always a space between attacker and enemy, thus someone can move in to wall them off. Point is if you have offense good enough to bypass not being a defender, you're fine (thus why Lillina and Ray rose). If you don't...You're a dingus (thus why any archer not Klein and Shin is low tier and lower).

If you're easy to defend and your ranged offense is monsterous to the point where you can make many avoided counters happen, you're good. It's indirectly helping durability.

With this new idea of you can't be a negative if you have 2 range, only so bad offensively you can't give much positive either to the point you might as well not be around deal, it might not be the case...Again.

Eh? Did I miss something? How the hell does that work? What if our Archer is bad durably and needs to be walled in, on top of having mediocre/bad offense? Is sure as hell wouldn't call that positive in any way. And if that's how you think, that'll favor everyone with 2 range, because then everyone can make potshots from behind unless they're locked to Swords.

maybe it`s an attempt to bring up Klein > Fir again...

Ether, please no...

[Ether]

With this new idea of you can't be a negative if you have 2 range, only so bad offensively you can't give much positive either to the point you might as well not be around deal, it might not be the case...Again.

Eh? Did I miss something? How the hell does that work? What if our Archer is bad durably and needs to be walled in, on top of having mediocre/bad offense? Is sure as hell wouldn't call that positive in any way. And if that's how you think, that'll favor everyone with 2 range, because then everyone can make potshots from behind unless they're locked to Swords.

With range, you are easy to defend regardless, as there is always a space between attacker and enemy, thus someone can move in to wall them off. Point is if you have offense good enough to bypass not being a defender, you're fine (thus why Lillina and Ray rose). If you don't...You're a dingus (thus why any archer not Klein and Shin is low tier and lower).

If you're easy to defend and your ranged offense is monsterous to the point where you can make many avoided counters happen, you're good. It's indirectly helping durability.

With this new idea of you can't be a negative if you have 2 range, only so bad offensively you can't give much positive either to the point you might as well not be around deal, it might not be the case...Again.

Eh? Did I miss something? How the hell does that work? What if our Archer is bad durably and needs to be walled in, on top of having mediocre/bad offense? Is sure as hell wouldn't call that positive in any way. And if that's how you think, that'll favor everyone with 2 range, because then everyone can make potshots from behind unless they're locked to Swords.

maybe it`s an attempt to bring up Klein > Fir again...

Ether, please no...

lol.I`m just saying that it could have been an underlying intention you may have had.I`m not touching it,don`t worry.

[dondon151]

Eh? Did I miss something? How the hell does that work? What if our Archer is bad durably and needs to be walled in, on top of having mediocre/bad offense? Is sure as hell wouldn't call that positive in any way. And if that's how you think, that'll favor everyone with 2 range, because then everyone can make potshots from behind unless they're locked to Swords.

Quasar (I think) said earlier that 2 range units are naturally walled in without any special effort because 1 range units will move in front of them at attack. And if it's not favorable for a 2 range unit to attack, then he doesn't have to attack.

[Florete]

With range, you are easy to defend regardless, as there is always a space between attacker and enemy, thus someone can move in to wall them off. Point is if you have offense good enough to bypass not being a defender, you're fine (thus why Lillina and Ray rose). If you don't...You're a dingus (thus why any archer not Klein and Shin is low tier and lower).

This only applies at a chokepoint. If there is even one extra space in which an enemy can move to attack an Archer, we need to make sure it can't happen. This is why a 2 range lock generally isn't a good thing, because not countering enemies that attack you is hurting efficiency. And this isn't H5 either where we really need indirect attackers, a lot of characters in this game are fine defensively.

Being easy to defend is subjective. Not needing to be defended is better.

If you're easy to defend and your ranged offense is monsterous to the point where you can make many avoided counters happen, you're good. It's indirectly helping durability.

It helps that one character's player phase durability, and whoever comes in and kills if the Archer didn't kill, but if the Archer can't even kill, I question the value of that unit in the first place. It's 1/2 or one enemy per phase (or 1/3, but then that unit just sucks too much regardless), which doesn't accomplish a whole lot in terms of chapter completion.

[grandjackal]

This only applies at a chokepoint. If there is even one extra space in which an enemy can move to attack an Archer, we need to make sure it can't happen. This is why a 2 range lock generally isn't a good thing, because not countering enemies that attack you is hurting efficiency. And this isn't H5 either where we really need indirect attackers, a lot of characters in this game are fine defensively.

Being easy to defend is subjective. Not needing to be defended is better.

Helping a defender not take a counter to better defend is even better.

This also does not apply to chokepoints, but can on the field. Unless you're bringing only one 2-range person and 1 other guy, you got plenty to defend with. It's a null point.

It helps that one character's player phase durability, and whoever comes in and kills if the Archer didn't kill, but if the Archer can't even kill, I question the value of that unit in the first place. It's 1/2 or one enemy per phase (or 1/3, but then that unit just sucks too much regardless), which doesn't accomplish a whole lot in terms of chapter completion.

Thus why Wolt, Dorothy, Igrene and Sue are all in low tier and lower.

[Florete]

Helping a defender not take a counter to better defend is even better.

This also does not apply to chokepoints, but can on the field. Unless you're bringing only one 2-range person and 1 other guy, you got plenty to defend with. It's a null point.

There are 4 spaces your Archer can be attacked from. A unit coming and finishing off an enemy makes 1, or if the enemy was already killed, there are none at the moment. So you have to cover 3-4 spaces worth to make sure your Archer isn't attacked. Unless you place a literal wall around him/her, this'll probably take a few units to do, which can restrict your units movements, especially if they're God units on horses like Alan, Lance, Miledy, and Percival.

Thus why Wolt, Dorothy, Igrene and Sue are all in low tier and lower.

Klein and Shin can kill multiple enemies per turn naturally now?