Efficiency Tier List?

[grandjackal]

Right then.

A thought just occured though. Percival is always assumed to be recruited chapter 15. However, what about the times we don't choose to use him? We could instead just recruit him in 13 to get the Knight's Crest 2 chapters earlier. So either I could have uber Percival at the cost of having to wait 2 chapters to promote a knight, or recruit him earlier when I don't care to use him, promote a knight 2 chapters earlier.

Thoughts on this, everyone?

[Florete]

Right then.

A thought just occured though. Percival is always assumed to be recruited chapter 15. However, what about the times we don't choose to use him? We could instead just recruit him in 13 to get the Knight's Crest 2 chapters earlier. So either I could have uber Percival at the cost of having to wait 2 chapters to promote a knight, or recruit him earlier when I don't care to use him, promote a knight 2 chapters earlier.

Thoughts on this, everyone?

Recruiting Percival on 13 is really hard. He leaves too soon. I know I'd never try it.

[Fei Mao]

I believe its better to just wait to chapter 15 to promote a knight, considering the next level is a desert level so a promoted knight wont fare too well in there, and yeah Lalum in Hard mode makes everything more difficult considering how she gets one shotted by every physical enemy, so yeah I don't see her being able to reach Percival in time,(besides the rescue/drop chain then again you have those wyverns to worry about.)

Edited September 12, 2009 by Cyas

[Colonel M]

You know my opinion on this. I told you on MSN. Cyas and RFoF summed up my thoughts.

Edited September 12, 2009 by Colonel M

[grandjackal]

I must ask this then. When in range, do Percival's men attack you, along with him? If so, all you really need is someone really tough.

As for desert, there are bandits that come in, might as well have someone benefit from it. I mean if we aren't gonna use him, might as well try.

In fact, has anyone tried this? Because I know a certain other armor knight who can be quite useful at a promotion time like this...

[Florete]

I must ask this then. When in range, do Percival's men attack you, along with him? If so, all you really need is someone really tough.

I read this and thought "Inb4Bors."

In fact, has anyone tried this? Because I know a certain other armor knight who can be quite useful at a promotion time like this...

Then I read this and found out I was too late.

[Quasar]

Bors 14 at the end of 8x? On my current half-finished playthrough I had no one at 14 at that time and my most used units (read: the ones with enough move to actually attack people) were level 12. Then again I haven't been satisfied with my turn counts, averaging at 13 per chapter up to Ch9. Should start again before I forget the minor details.

There's one thing Bors is good at and that's soloing his way to recruit Lugh. Not that everyone else couldn't do it, Bors is just so slow it's useless to have him do anything else.

[grandjackal]

I read this and thought "Inb4Bors."

Then I read this and found out I was too late.

What? ;;>> An early promotion does Boris wonders. But for the chapter 13 crest, I was referring to a different knight. That's the thing, general is not a bad class, just being an armor knight royally sucks. The key is to get them out of it as soon as possible.

Bors 14 at the end of 8x? On my current half-finished playthrough I had no one at 14 at that time and my most used units (read: the ones with enough move to actually attack people) were level 12. Then again I haven't been satisfied with my turn counts, averaging at 13 per chapter up to Ch9. Should start again before I forget the minor details.

There's one thing Bors is good at and that's soloing his way to recruit Lugh. Not that everyone else couldn't do it, Bors is just so slow it's useless to have him do anything else.

Weird. I usually have everyone higher...

That is a good use for Boris though, though do remember he can still distract javelin throwers by huddling against the wall.

[Colonel M]

No I know what Kuja was talking about... and it isn't Bors.

[dondon151]

What? ;;>> An early promotion does Boris wonders. But for the chapter 13 crest, I was referring to a different knight. That's the thing, general is not a bad class, just being an armor knight royally sucks. The key is to get them out of it as soon as possible.

Early promotion means there are like a total of 3 units that can carry Bors around, and once they promote, he can't be carried around.

[grandjackal]

What? ;;>> An early promotion does Boris wonders. But for the chapter 13 crest, I was referring to a different knight. That's the thing, general is not a bad class, just being an armor knight royally sucks. The key is to get them out of it as soon as possible.

Early promotion means there are like a total of 3 units that can carry Bors around, and once they promote, he can't be carried around.

Considering he promotes early, he has 5 move like every other footsoldier.

He won't NEED to be carried around.

[dondon151]

He still has more severe movement penalties, 6 move prepromotes to compete with, and a plethora of units that will end up obsoleting him anyway.

[grandjackal]

He still has more severe movement penalties, 6 move prepromotes to compete with, and a plethora of units that will end up obsoleting him anyway.

The equal of two people with their Guiding ring and Hero crest. Bring in Echidna/Bartre, it's only 3 people, and that's if we chose to prepromote them (Deick, Saul most likely). Still plenty of army he's keeping up with.

[Quasar]

If you've had significantly higher levels I assume you have farmed reinforcements in 3, 5, 6, 7 and especially 8. In order to use such levels it would be nice to see turncounts that show no loss of efficiency has happened while killing things that are unnecessary to slay.

3 - You can capture the throne before all the Cavs have come

5 - Brigands can be avoided

6&7 - All reinforcements can be avoided

8 - Everything except several units coming from stairs near throne can be avoided

[grandjackal]

If you've had significantly higher levels I assume you have farmed reinforcements in 3, 5, 6, 7 and especially 8. In order to use such levels it would be nice to see turncounts that show no loss of efficiency has happened while killing things that are unnecessary to slay.

3 - You can capture the throne before all the Cavs have come

5 - Brigands can be avoided

6&7 - All reinforcements can be avoided

8 - Everything except several units coming from stairs near throne can be avoided

...No wonder my levels were inflated ;;>> This game's reinforcements are a bit unecessary, but it's so easy to just settle down to farm them because they're just right there. It's weird, I can get through other games ignoring reinforcements, but this game just seems so much easier to fall into this. Maybe I'm not as good at FE6 as I thought ;;>>

Questions though

3- Seriously? How?

5-Kinda hard when they spawn right at the throne, they're like right next to the damn thing.

6-Aside from a couple form near the throne. Otherwise yeah. Chapter 7 I can actually see possible, though you might need a wall at that 1 space doorway.

8-True, but there is the treasure room trap. Someone lagging behind can at least do something to gain some extra padding quite easily there even when taking the throne. Someone like the Ostians or the Ilians.

[Quasar]

3 - Not much I can say here, just move fast. You can get in between the second group of two and the group of four Cavs easy enough

5 - Once again just move fast. The turn I killed the boss the first one spawned from the lower fort, and I was taking the long route. The upper fort is a joke

6 - If you kill the boss these reinforcements don't appear (the bottom ones still do)

7 - You don't need anyone to block the doorway. There's plenty of time to conquer the throne before they catch up to you.

8 - Sure you can leave useless people behind but leaving just one is getting him killed. So let's leave a healer with him or more people? The more people you take away

the slower you progress towards the throne, especially if leaving key units like healers. The boss isn't a joke here. Even with Armorslayers and Hammer he'll be a pain in the ass. I had majority of the crew able to damage him do so and IIRC it still took me three turns to down him.

[grandjackal]

Clarification for 8. That's not true. See the first treasure room in 8? See the right side doorway? The enemy always moves so that an archer clogs that doorway, with a merc or soldier behind them. Put someone in front of that doorway. Not only will said character not die, they can actually get some exp by flinging javelins or what have you. Enemies will continue to clog the room, giving you more people to snipe and thus moar exp for said units. Lillina and Wendy could use training, they have ranged weapons. I wouldn't quite put OJ against Leygence at this point, so you could trade off his armorslayer to someone and let him chip away at some units if you want (he's at worst gonna face 2 attacks a turn). With Barth, OJ, Wendy and Lillina, it's fair to assume that 1 or 2 of them can benefit from this (Barth can rescue if someone's in danger form a kill and don't want to face an archer counter, Wendy could rescue drop, so could OJ if it's Lillina). Wendy and Barth are garunteed to be there, since no way they're making it to the throne anyways, and Lillina is not going anywhere NEAR the boss.

So in reality, it's a cheap scam for the Ostians to get a little extra boost. I wouldn't say a notable one, depending on how fast you get to the boss and kill him, but most certainly will no one die from this, and we got plenty of layaround units stuck at that part of the map anyways.

Wanna know what's even funnier? This is true even for the very room that Wendy/OJ/Barth escape from. You don't even have to have them move much to pull this off.

Edited September 13, 2009 by Kuja

[Quasar]

Why would I leave perfectly usable units to stand still when I could use them to attack enemies up ahead? I guess leaving Wendy in the vicinity shortly afterwards would make sense but I don't really see her getting more than one level out of it with her Javelin hit rate. Especially since the enemies appear at turn.. 15 or 16? and reach the treasure room some three or four turns later. That doesn't leave you with a lot of time to farm them anyway.

[grandjackal]

Why would I leave perfectly usable units to stand still when I could use them to attack enemies up ahead? I guess leaving Wendy in the vicinity shortly afterwards would make sense but I don't really see her getting more than one level out of it with her Javelin hit rate. Especially since the enemies appear at turn.. 15 or 16? and reach the treasure room some three or four turns later. That doesn't leave you with a lot of time to farm them anyway.

That's why it's not a noticeable boost, as I said.

As for perfectly usable units, everyone not OJ seems to be in lower mid or lower. This being Lillina, Barth and Wendy. Lillina's basically trapped till reinforcements start arriving anyways, and Wendy/Barth won't be seeing much action till they start showing up anyways. I don't see what smacking around they would actually do aside from this little trap o' mine, and I see no reason why I should push them forward, if transportation's such a no-no for armors. Basically you don't have to leave people that are good now to clog these lines up, but these units who are forced here can't not benefit in some form. Example.

-Wendy as stated can be left behind to clog up the hole that they left when busting in. This means she can start farming basically immediately after they arrive. Only 2 less hit than Barth and faster leveling speed, she can actually nab a couple levels from this. Granted, this is if she hits...However, if you can spam it, then do it. She has the time. If only she hit harder...

-Barth is the same, though he can take counters from the archers once they start clogging up. However, just as inaccurate as Wendy really, and not leveling up as fast. But, if you want to get him at least a level to early promote, I don't see why not. Having the following stats for the isles...

30 HP, 13 Str, 8 Skill, 8 Speed, 2 Luck, 18 Def, 4 Res, lances and axes

Is at least usable for the isles, considering this will be damn well hard to kill there.

-Lillina doesn't have the sheer time as the knights due to where she is, but she can still get them in the treasure room, along with nabbing some kills as we push through the stairs reinforcements. So once the reinforcements are gone, she can go to the treasure room and pick some people off. I guess you should let Roy hold onto a fire tome for more accuracy. For the fact she has the most accuracy and power of Wendy and Barth with ranged combat, she has the easier time nabbing kills for levels, though she might not have as much time. However, I'm pretty damn certain her and Wendy are at least getting 50 EXP a kill if not more for this time.

-Boris can theoretically get to the Wendy/Barth/OJ room in time for the reinforcements to get himself some extra padding. Problem is you have to field him. He's not forced, and he's lagging behind everyone. A slot only for this one purpose? He can be used here, but not so much a use as to warrent a unit slot.

For those who are thinking Boris promoting early at 14 is bad...

16/1 Lance

35 HP, 13 Str, 14 Skill, 18 Speed, 7 Luck, 11 Def, 5 Res

14/1 Boris

35 HP, 13 Str, 9 Skill, 11 Speed, 10 Luck, 19 Def, 4 Res

So Lance wins with a lead of 7 hit, avoid by 11, res by 1. Speed by 7 seems big, but 11 speed doubles everything on the island anyways. It's what we call superfluous, and the promotion item essentially means he went from doubling to doubling anyways. Boris on the other hand has an astounding 8 defense on him.

On top of this, Lance does fine on the isles anyways, thanks to swords and his supports. He doesn't need to promote early anyways. On the other hand, Boris made an astounding jump from terrible to incredibly goddamn awesome. Hand axers can't hurt him unless he has a lance equipped, of which they'd do a grand total of 1. I'm so scared. Steelers do 4 damage, 5 if he has a lance equipped. Basically a 6-9RKO. Mercs can't hurt him even if he had an axe equipped. This offense is also enough to double basically anything on his debue, and can even survive a crit from the berserker.

I wish I could give Boris a support. Oh wait, I can! Considering I could basically promote him in 8x, he'd have the same move as OJ, who seems to be in upper mid making it legit. Mo' attack, mo' crit, mo' hit. Considering defense is the last of Boris's problems, he can only benefit from this support. OJ doesn't exactly have a lot of friends, so he'd love any support he can get. Boris comes the earliest, granted it takes a bit before it starts taking effect, but windxwind is pure benefit even from the C as you can't not have full benefits with matching affinities. Still, Boris would love any support, and so would OJ.

For those of you who say that Boris has unreliable hit, let's review. At base, he has 28 base hit. Iron lance he has 98 hit, iron axe 93. Pirates and Fighters with hand axes have around 18-16 avoid. 77-75 displayed. Steel axers have around 12-14 avoid. 81-79 displayed. He's easily able to smite them with iron. He has a base of 21 might. Piraes have generally 30 HP and 5 Def. Fighters have 32 HP, 4 Def. He's even got leeway for stat flux. Mercs have 30 avoid with their steel swords. WTD cuts it down to 20. 78 displayed. He easily 2RKOs them with iron, thanks to WTA. So no, his accuracy is actually not bad here. Can improve with the help of OJ.

So basically nigh immortal to anything but the strongest enemies of which he slaughters anyways with a stunning 9:1 Ratio along with actually decent hit. Along with keeping up with your foot soldiers, who are tons squishier (to put it in perspective, Deick promoting early, Boris would not only have 3 more dodge, he'd have 1 more HP, 8 more Defense, the same strength and Deick's only real win is a bit more hit).

There any reason he should continue being in Low?

In fact...

20/1 Lot

50 HP, 15 Str, 14 Skill, 14 Speed, 7 Luck, 13 Def, 3 Res

So Lot has 15 HP, 2 Str. Nevermind this is 6 levels more than Boris. 3 speed is nice. So is 5 skill. However, Boris has a 6 defense lead on him, along with 2 Res. So basically here are his leads, if we are to assume 2 HP=1 Def.

8 durability lead, 2 str, 3 crit, 7 hit, 3 avoid (do keep in mind Boris has weapon control).

This is awfully close, considering Lott is 6 levels ahead. If at 16?

16/1 Lott

47 HP, 14 Str, 12 Skill, 13 Speed, 5 Luck, 12 Def, 3 Res

So now Lott doesn't actually have a durability lead, is now losing avoid, only winning hit by lol1. His only real leads is 1 Str (without weapon control), 2 crit, and 8 lead on magic durability.

This is of course considering 2 HP=1 Def, of which defense is exponential rather (Boris is actually immune to some enemies). Now can we please put his fat ass into upper mid?

I mean come on. Aside from Barth, no one just uses an item and is like "Lol, I'm basically invincible". Even then, Barth doesn't have the benefit of existing offense, though we barely had to train him to get similar defensive measures.

In fact, let's compare.

14/1 Boris

35 HP, 13 Str, 9 Skill, 11 Speed (as I said, doubles basically everything on the isles anyways), 10 Luck, 19 Def, 4 Res

Klein base

32 HP, 15 Str, 15 Skill, 12 Speed, 12 Luck, 9 Def, 7 Res

Boris iron axe-21, lance-20, javelin-19, hand axe-20

Klein iron bow-21

So tell me people. What is wrong with this picture? I think it might be the 10 defense lead and actual ability to have severe melee advantage.

As a note, I am NOT saying Boris is better, but rather comparing. After all, that silver bow doesn't last forever, not that Boris couldn't use a silver lance now anyways.

Edited September 14, 2009 by Kuja

[dondon151]

Lance only has a 2 level lead on Bors on promotion? What chapter is this, anyway? I'm going to assume it's around 9 or 10, which means the levels are ridiculously overestimated (I had 12/0 Lance at chapter 9 and 14/0 at chapter 10).

Also, 11 AS doesn't double everything on the Isles. It doubles Steel Axe fighters, and maybe some Steel Bow archers, and that's it. Hand Axe fighters generally have around 8 AS and higher (though very few have 7), and quite a few of the Steel Axe fighters prefer attacking with their Hand Axes on enemy phase. Lance's 18 AS at 16/1 can even have a chance at doubling Steel Sword mercs in chapter 13, who have 14-15 AS.

[Colonel M]

Ugh, as I said Kuja: aim a bit lower. Perhaps Boris could rise, but right now comparing him with an Upper Mid tier character isn't saying much. In fact, it could just mean Klein needs to drop.

[Ether]

Isn't Sophia the worst unit in the game?I mean,Wendy at 11/0 has more Def than Sophia at 20/20.Freakin' Wendy.Getting the guiding ring is nice,but Sophia has 3 base lck,so she will probably not even do that(unless she get's it automatically).

[grandjackal]

Ether does raise a good point, she doesn't exactly have to promote late due to her insane promotion gains (Lol, 4 HP, 4 Str, 2 Skill, 4 Speed, 3 Def, 3 Res). Even at level 10, we'd get something at least usable (and it is possible to promote her after the isles but before the desert with the Percival crest, in case we decide to note use him since top tiers aren't assumed to be played). Getting Sophia to promotion is far more difficult a task (less time, Sophia has to deal with accuracy issues which cuts into leveling despite the level gap, is never useful at anything other than healing ever).

Yeah she gets us the guiding ring, but she's forced there anyways, it's not like we have to choose her to get the ring. Just every time we play the map, we're dragging Sophia along to get the ring. At least by now, Wendy could be vaguely usable.

[Ether]

Ether does raise a good point, she doesn't exactly have to promote late due to her insane promotion gains (Lol, 4 HP, 4 Str, 2 Skill, 4 Speed, 3 Def, 3 Res). Even at level 10, we'd get something at least usable (and it is possible to promote her after the isles but before the desert with the Percival crest, in case we decide to note use him since top tiers aren't assumed to be played). Getting Sophia to promotion is far more difficult a task (less time, Sophia has to deal with accuracy issues which cuts into leveling despite the level gap, is never useful at anything other than healing ever).

Yeah she gets us the guiding ring, but she's forced there anyways, it's not like we have to choose her to get the ring. Just every time we play the map, we're dragging Sophia along to get the ring. At least by now, Wendy could be vaguely usable.

I really don't see Wendy as the worst unit in the game,she could probably go above Sue/Juno/Sophia/Dorothy for durability alone,heck,all but Juno have Def on the likes of Sophia,Wendy will beat their 20/20 average around level 11.

As for Juno,the only merit I see to her is her AS,which Wendy matches at 20/5 or an equivalent level,except Wendy has +4 Con.

I hate to lay on the hype,but she`s fine once she promotes,30 Hp/13 def at 10/1,at 11/1 or 10/2,both increase.That`s better than anyone

up to at least Walt.

Scratch that,Juno has less Def than all of them.lolz.

Edited September 15, 2009 by Ether

[grandjackal]

Everyone's argument tends to be "lolarmors", and everyone seems to agree with it, so good luck with that. However, I WOULD like to clear up leveling speed for the likes of her and Lillina in chapter 8 with my treasure trap strat in chapter 8 (Wendy of whom can do it the soonest, due to being that close to the upper left room).

Against the level 12 soldiers, Lillina will get 14 EXP a hit, 55 for a kill. Against level 10 archers (I will have to assume mercs are the same level), they get 13 a hit, 42 a kill. Lillina with Fire 5RKOs Soldiers, 4RKOs with Thunder. This equals 4 hits and a kill, or 56 for the 4 hits, 55 for the kill. A single soldier will net her a level up +9 exp. For the others, she 4RKOs archers with either spell. 42 exp for the 3 hits, 42 the killing blow. 84 EXP. I'd imagine it being similar with mercs, just perhaps fire would need a 5RKO. With Knights (Of which Lillina is more likely to fight) it's 10 EXP a hit, 33 a kill (I think something's off...). 3RKOs with any spell. 20 exp for the hits, 33 for the kill. 53 EXP.

For Wendy? Same deals pretty much, except she's using a javelin instead. Same deal with soldiers actually.

6RKO with mercenaries (I guess) though. 63 EXP for the hits, 42 for the kill. A level with a +5 exp. Technically the same with archers, but this is dangerous, not that she'd actually have to worry about it outside of melee.