Efficiency Tier List?

[Mekkah]

Reikken showed she was overall more useful than Lot throughout the game, so either counter the comparison or drop both imo.

[Scarlet]

Why the hell would Barth want the Devil Axe

I mean, atrocious hit rate aside, damaging yourself isn't mitigated by being durable, as there's still the issue of not actually doing damage to your opponent and then requiring a heal.

I said that mainly for the lulz ;;>> Do refresh my memory though, doesn't the devil axe build weapon rank crazy fast in this game?

Yes

Actually, no. FE6 was one of those FEs where all weapons and staves only give 1 WE (although there is the kill bonus of x2). The FEs where the Devil Axe means a lightning-fast A in axes are FE7 and FE8, where it actually gives 8 WE instead of just 1.

[Colonel M]

I'd say move Lott down a little bit. I'm with Joker here thinking that Thany needs to go down a little bit because I -don't- really see her as an Upper Mid contestant. I could be wrong though.

[grandjackal]

I don't buy this "Barth benefits the most so he always gets the KC." thing. There are better choices for overall better team efficiency than promoting him early but moreover it's a single extremely contested resource so it's easy to agree that no one should be assumed to get it.

Apparently not if a top tier is not getting as much out of it as Barth is. Treck and Noah aren't quite level yet, everyone basically says Boris has outlived his "usefulness" by now, Wendy sucks in every way possible, and Lyre reeks of herpes. True anyone can use it, but ya know, Maric's able to use the first master seal in FEDS. He's near the top just on that. I'd think turning Barth into The Metal would be better than the top tiers getting minor benefit out of it in comparison (especially since they can afford to wait anyways), giving it to Boris, or waiting for the Ilians, because they are not only level but promoting them early gets us, suffice to say, very unimpressive prepromotes. I see no reason Barth should be highly considered for it at least.

See the arrow guard for Fliers. You can't argue that to anyone in particular because no one has priority over others for it. Obviously using it on a Pegasi makes the Pegasi a lot more durable than giving it to already-pretty-sturdy Miredy but Miredy becomes invulnerable and benefits the team much more that way. This should sound familiar.

You'd be right, I can just highly consider it.

Also dondon I think you misunderstood what I meant. I was gunning for "pre-promoted Barth > not prepromoted unit X" is a flawed comparison as in it's not saying a whole lot that (only) Barth can promote early. It doesn't get a whole lot better if you go "pre-promoted Barth > prepromoted unit Y". The least you could do in those cases is give another contested resource (Stat Booster) of their choice to the prepromoted unit.

I'm not dondon, but I'm flattered. Besides, I thought we already considered this? Like giving Echidna the body ring, or Bartre/Zealot a wing. Well if we haven't considered it, lets. Who benefits most from stat boosters from out prepromoted team?

I still don't see any valid reason for disregarding Sophia's ring. And hey thanks for brining up the flier promotion item, I had completely forgotten that Thany's leveling rate comparable to Lance was never explained when he went over Lot.

Reikken showed she was overall more useful than Lot throughout the game, so either counter the comparison or drop both imo.

Seems everyone wants them moved down, so why not? Where you guys want 'em? He DID compare them to Noah as well.

Edited September 17, 2009 by Kuja

[Fei Mao]

Lot? I think maybe below Saul or Ellen. (that's just me)

[grandjackal]

Right then. Anyone against this?

Also, everyone's thoughts on Barth claiming an early promo?

[CATS]

Toptiers get only a small benefit from promotion? No, they (Alan/Lance) get +2 or +3 to every single stat. They benefit significantly. I'd hardly assume an early promotion for Barth; much the opposite.

[Fei Mao]

So.. what level do you want Barth to promote at? 14?

[grandjackal]

Toptiers get only a small benefit from promotion? No, they (Alan/Lance) get +2 or +3 to every single stat. They benefit significantly. I'd hardly assume an early promotion for Barth; much the opposite.

I just showed how early on at a level given by general opinion that Barth benefits instantly more than someone like Lance (Barth OHKO, Lance was already doubling everything not a merc, and the boost doesn't help him do that still. Allen basically just promotes to have what speed Boris would if he promoted early, and we all know how well THAT went...

On top of this you cut into their leveling speeds. Since Barth doesn't care since insta-promotion just makes him damn hard to kill instantly, there is such thing as better returns. They get +2-3s, Barth gets +3-4s. Lance and Alen if they have problems in an area can just use a stat boost. Lance an Energy Ring, Allen a Speed Wing. It wouldn't change anything anyways.

Cavs are good, but for how much they improve from it? It's not actually that much of a change from normal. Either way, Barth has this option. Whether or not it's better or worse than giving it to the cavs, it's still an option he has. He does get boosts that greatly improve his utility. With this item, I get rid of Barth's problems on the isles, make him hard to kill and 2RKOs like most people anyways. Giving it to the top tier cavs just makes them go from great to great, meaning nothing has changed at all. It doesn't even help Lance in any single way at all, period.

So.. what level do you want Barth to promote at? 14?

Level 10, of which is a single level from his base. If we can get him a bit higher before the isles, why not?

[Fei Mao]

Hmm Barth with early promotion I think might make him a useable/decent tank though the magic users in late game and maybe the Wyvern Lords (probably not if he maxes def by then) could be a probelm, the other problem is his low luck since enemies in Hard mode have a decent crit rate. I'm sure he'll be able to take regular silver lances and killer lance attacks, but not sure what the crit rate they have against Barth.

Edited September 18, 2009 by Cyas

[grandjackal]

Hmm Barth with early promotion I think might make him a useable/decent tank though the magic users in late game and maybe the Wyvern Lords (probably not if he maxes def by then) though the other problem is his low luck since enemies in Hard mode have a decent crit rate.

The main benefit is that it bypasses his entire sucky moment-the isles.

Another thing to note is he DOES have a support, since OJ is now viable. 25 turns to C,30 to B. B is where the meaty bonuses are. Since with an early promotion, he has 5 move and can actually keep up with him. Ok granted it's not MEATY like let's say a nice fire fire, but Barth DOES get support bonuses at least. Helps pad his defense more, gives OJ a support since he's low. OJ wouldn't mind avoid and defense anyways, though he doesn't get much of it. That support also basically nullifies whatever crit problems Barth may have. Also helps OJ be basically an anti-killer weapon and anti-swordmaster.

Then Sacae, he's basically invincible. Granted his offense is bad in Ilia. As for Barth in wyvern lord country...Well...Depends on what level he's at by then.

It makes me wanna think over Boris again, but his problem is getting him there in the first place apparently.

Edited September 18, 2009 by Kuja

[dondon151]

Like I said before, the more salient problem is that the next Knight Crest comes at 13/15 and then the one after that comes in the middle of 16. Meanwhile, there are 2 cavaliers that are very likely to be in play and 2 cavaliers that are somewhat likely to be in play competing for those items.

I mean, if Barth wants an early promo, I'd contend that Noah and Treck may want it as well.

[Colonel M]

You'd stretch your dollar further with Noah. Treck... not so much.

[grandjackal]

Like I said before, the more salient problem is that the next Knight Crest comes at 13/15 and then the one after that comes in the middle of 16. Meanwhile, there are 2 cavaliers that are very likely to be in play and 2 cavaliers that are somewhat likely to be in play competing for those items.

I mean, if Barth wants an early promo, I'd contend that Noah and Treck may want it as well.

Those first 2 don't change much at all from early promo. In fact, Lance doesn't change at all, he still 2RKOs and still doubles anything but mercs.

Treck has a lower level, so we might be holding back on that crest all the time Barth could have had it. Noah?

10/1 Noah

32 HP, 10 Str, 10 Skill, 11 Speed, 7 Luck, 9 Def, 4 Res

Wow...Impressive, right? Boris for when I contested him early promoting had this speed, and I recall you dondon saying this doesn't even double that much on the isels, nevermind there's no way in hell 10 Str is ORKOing anyways, since Barth is just barely pulling it off with his 13 Str to 2RKO.

You'd stretch your dollar further with Noah. Treck... not so much.

Not....really. Noah is struggling to outdo Zealot, someone who basically starts to go on permanent shutdown once lategame hits like a freight of bricks.

Interesting note: Did you know Paladins in chapter 16 have the same might as the steel axe fighters? 10/6 Barth only takes 7 damage from paladin silver spears, which seems like a 5RKO. However, these are the strongest enemies on the map. B with OJ boosts it to a 6RKO with 6 damage. 17+1 Str ain't bad either, and neither is having actual weapon rank either. As a note, said paladins requite 17 AS to double. So unless your name is Rutger or Lance, I'd have a hard time imagining anyone doubling them. With the horseslayer, Lance actually has a chance of not doubling them. Considering if we early promote him, he won't be at this quite yet. Otherwise he's 2RKOing them with it, of which Barth is doing quite fine. However, one thing Barth isn't doing is dying. He can take a shot. Even with that in mind with full supports, Lance would need a silver sword to ORKO fighters. By now, Barth could have steel axes to 2RKO, which is far more available. It WOULD help 12/6 Lance...but it removes 4 AS off him. This only helps against armors, of which Barth can double as well.

So yeah, offensively? They are...actually fairly similar. This is with max supports considered, which means you need Roy and Allen nearby. If one of them is missing, he lost quite a bit of ability. Barth only has 1 dude, OJ. If OJ peels off, not much is actually lost. Doesn't change his offense much at all, he only wants it for the other boosts he otherwise would not have. Barth is able to be standalone in his performance, and needs less help to get this sort of performance.

In fact, giving the seal? Lance could be about level 19 about now, which is just about as good as 12/6 Lance anyways. We generally changed lance in a zilch fashion, and generally made him weaker for the future. On the other hand, Barth couldn't possibly be better now unpromoted due to how shitty the AK base class is. This goes for Allen as well, except he doubles very few things even with weapons that don't weigh him down, and is now leveling slower so he will probably double less and less. On the other hand we could have waited, he'd be similar now and be better later.

I just see no reason to give them a crest, as it actually ruins their potential due to slower leveling speed and less levels which don't work well with their bases thanks to their minimal in comparison promotion boosts. It doesn't change them for the isles, and only ruins them in the future.

Edited September 18, 2009 by Kuja

[dondon151]

10/1 Noah

32 HP, 10 Str, 10 Skill, 11 Speed, 7 Luck, 9 Def, 4 Res

Wow...Impressive, right? Boris for when I contested him early promoting had this speed, and I recall you dondon saying this doesn't even double that much on the isels, nevermind there's no way in hell 10 Str is ORKOing anyways, since Barth is just barely pulling it off with his 13 Str to 2RKO.

I dunno where you're getting your averages from, but 10/1 Noah averages .9 higher str, spd, and def. Even considering this, Noah doesn't necessarily want to promote at level 10. He wants to get some levels out of his basic tier to actually get his AS to the point where after promotion, he'll double most enemies. Waiting until level 14 or so gets him 13.2 AS after promotion, which should increase to around 14 by the time it becomes a significant AS threshold.

Now you're going to say that by delaying giving the crest to Noah, it will be putting it to waste when Barth can use it immediately. The problem is that a promotion item isn't exactly like a skill in FE9 - due to EXP gain mechanics, the optimal time to use a promotion item is dynamic; there will be tradeoffs, unlike in FE9 where there is no tradeoff for hoarding a skill scroll.

[grandjackal]

Yes, you basically traded early promotion with taking away from his future. 14/1, when does that happen? 13 Speed doesn't double much, as I don't imagine this happening on the isles. This doesn't even double steel lancer pegasi in Ilia. On top of this, it would help get him murdered in Sacae as well.

See, Barth using the seal gets rid of bad midgame. Because of this, he gets to see lategame areas like Sacae where he's nigh invincible, and it's worth it due to the fact her earned it back in the isles and so.

My complaint isn't using it sooner, but who benefits more. Barth becomes quite decent midgame, and because of this has earned the right to see more of the game such as Sacae. On the other hand, an early promotion for Noah does not improve his current state, and only serves to ruin him later. He was comparable to Zealot as is when he promotes.

Basically with a promotion item, one has to think for an early promotion "is the earlier improvement worth the worse later game?". For Thany it certainly was. Great avoid alone stats with swords for the isles, supports keeping her offense stable throughout the game she otherwise would not have seen as not promoting early she would otherwise be stuck to lances in axe heavy isle country, which ruins her avoid of which then hurts due to her pisspoor actual durability. It wasn't just because no one else was around, though that certainly helped her case as we can see.

For most paladins it's a situation of "very minor to no benefits promoting early while ruining future potential". Paladins don't WANT to promote early (it barely does anything for Allen, and in the future thanks to less levels and slower leveling speed he actually will eventually just stop doubling alltogether, I outlined Lance as is, Noah has issues with it as he is struggling to compare to Zealot as is, Treck has to wait anyways). However for Barth it's more "I become far tougher early on and get a new weapon that's far less shitty for the oncoming situation, can now keep up with the heard, and later on I will still be hitting hard and being tough anyways so I haven't changed much at all".

Sort of like Swordmasters. 30 crit is always nice, but the speed boost is barely noticeable. Their con actually starts to matter. Deick gets a new weapon and gets quite a bit better for the isles while he would have slowed down lategame anyways. Early promo is actually making me consider having him top the list. Then again, Ward or Lott could become far tougher and have the time to build bow rank (what better than Ward using iron on wyvern lords than steel or killer, maybe even silver?).

Brings me to the Ring as well. Do tell who benefits more from an early promo than Saul? More time to build light rank, levels fast with staffs anyways, gets offense sooner...

Edited September 18, 2009 by Kuja

[dondon151]

Yes, you basically traded early promotion with taking away from his future. 14/1, when does that happen? 13 Speed doesn't double much, as I don't imagine this happening on the isles. This doesn't even double steel lancer pegasi in Ilia. On top of this, it would help get him murdered in Sacae as well.

Isn't this exactly what you did with Barth? I expect Noah to promote at 14/1 by maybe around chapter 13 or so (probably earlier, as with this estimate he's getting less than 1 level per chapter, and that won't happen considering he's mounted). He won't have 13 AS by the time that chapter 17 rolls around.

See, Barth using the seal gets rid of bad midgame. Because of this, he gets to see lategame areas like Sacae where he's nigh invincible, and it's worth it due to the fact her earned it back in the isles and so.

So what? His hit rates are complete ass, his movement is complete ass, and his damage is complete ass.

My complaint isn't using it sooner, but who benefits more. Barth becomes quite decent midgame, and because of this has earned the right to see more of the game such as Sacae. On the other hand, an early promotion for Noah does not improve his current state, and only serves to ruin him later. He was comparable to Zealot as is when he promotes.

Noah can wait until level 17 or whenever if he wants more AS. The point is that he wants to promote before the second Knight Crest comes along in chapter 15, and Barth using that resource has this opportunity cost.

Additionally, Lance might also want that Knight Crest. Unpromoted Lance doesn't ORKO anything even if A Allen is in range, and +2 str pushes him 4 damage closer to ORKOs.

However for Barth it's more "I become far tougher early on and get a new weapon that's far less shitty for the oncoming situation, can now keep up with the heard, and later on I will still be hitting hard and being tough anyways so I haven't changed much at all".

Axes have 5 more hit than lances with WTD. Wow. Here's a newsflash: axes do not revolutionize Barth's (or any knight's) performance in the Western Isles. And by giving the Knight Crest to Barth to help him keep up, you're delaying the rest of the army from promoting to a higher movement echelon.

[grandjackal]

Isn't this exactly what you did with Barth? I expect Noah to promote at 14/1 by maybe around chapter 13 or so (probably earlier, as with this estimate he's getting less than 1 level per chapter, and that won't happen considering he's mounted). He won't have 13 AS by the time that chapter 17 rolls around.

So basically the isles will be over? In exchange, I get something like this.

14/1 Noah

36 HP, 12 Str, 12 Skill, 13 Speed, 8 Luck, 11 Def, 4 Res

or

Barth level 10/3

32 HP, 14 Str, 9 Skill, 8 Speed, 2 Luck, 19 Def, 4 Res

Barth in that time could have been getting better weapon ranks for his axes. He could easily have Steel and Hand Axes by now. 13 speed only doubles steel cavs of which there are also javelin users and killer lancers. These killer lancers are packing 23-14 mt. A single crit subdues Noah. Barth on the other hand could take 2 and still be alive. Paladins with their silver are packing 30 Mt. that's 19 damage to Noah. Only 10 to Barth. I'd imagine both could have a support going. Noah I'd think a C with Fir, though Barth could easily have a B with OJ by now. So Noah gets +1 Str, +5 avoid, 3 hit, 3 crit evade. Barth gets +1 Atk, Def, 6 avoid, 10 hit and 10 crit evade. Basically this means that they will have identical crit evade and hit.

http://fe.dead-end.biz/fe6hmch13.html

Horseslayer is technically 33 mt on them. Barth is effectively pull 48 Mt, Noah 46. What is it you notice about that? Yes, Barth can indeed 1 shot some cavs! Effectively, it cuts resource use in half. If Barth even has another mt somehow, he one shots all cavs. This weapon only has 16 uses. Noah needing to double to kill effectively cuts it down to 8 kills. Since Barth is basically OHKOing half the cavs, he's able to do this and still have 8 uses left.

On top of this, Barth is quite a bit more durable, so he's more than allowed to just mow them down. Weakest cav with steel 3RKOs Noah at around 50 displayed (yup, with Fir involved). Yeah Barth will be in the 60s displayed most likely, but they only do 3-4 damage to him. 8-11RKO. I don't care what you say, that's practically triple Noah's survival rate. This also means that he is capable of just flat out destroying a killer lancer, while Noah would have to risk the counter and risk being killed.

What? Bad hit? Worst hit with this weapon that Barth sees is 73 displayed, and this is if they aren't weighed down. Steel lancers are 81 displayed.

The hero is only doing 2 damage to Barth, 11 to Noah, doubles both. This is with WTA as a note, not that it matters.

Noah can't double wyverns, Barth could have built up axes. He has superior strength and steel. Not that it matters, Barth only has to do better just by whipping out iron. 79 displayed hit with iron, 64 with Steel. Only do 7 damage to Barth with steel, 16 to Noah. Barth does 13 damage with steel, 10 with Iron. Noah only does 8. So Barth can kill this thing far faster.

Same deal with paladins really. Due to Barth being more durable to everything else and having generally the same survivability to the Paladin (though the paladin needs to land two shots with Barth, only 1 with Noah.), I'd rather Barth take the risk.

So I could have had this AND a better unit for the 5 prior chapters, or better offense on archers...yippee...

Just to drive the point home, Noah needs 7 levels for this effect, Barth only needs 1.

So what? His hit rates are complete ass, his movement is complete ass, and his damage is complete ass.

His hit rates are just fine and has a willing support to help no less. If his movement is ass with his 5 move with your many other foot soldiers than I suggest we lower all foot soldiers because their movement is fail as well. We don't mass promote everyone till past 16, of which there are still plenty of opportunities to shine for armors (invincible in Sacae, can protect your ass in Ilia since fliers can fly from any angle, plenty of reinforcements pop up from everywhere in Bern, is still able to take shots after rescuing, what have you. Granted his move sucks then, but he's still got his upsides.

As for his damage output, it's perfectly fine. He has the Str to get by, the durability to tank with, and the time+weapons. Noah at 14/8 would be similar to Barth at 10/12. This is reasonable for chapter 21 I believe, and guess what? 15 speed doesn't double a goddamn thing. If Barth's offense output is trash...

Noah can wait until level 17 or whenever if he wants more AS. The point is that he wants to promote before the second Knight Crest comes along in chapter 15, and Barth using that resource has this opportunity cost.

No, he clearly does not. He would prefer to wait, maybe he would be able to actually double things later on, namely Wyverns.

Additionally, Lance might also want that Knight Crest. Unpromoted Lance doesn't ORKO anything even if A Allen is in range, and +2 str pushes him 4 damage closer to ORKOs.

The problem is, it requires a support. What if Allen peels away? What if I don't use Allen? At least with Barth, my offense is assured. Along with that, we also get the same effect with Roy being around. So Lance doesn't really need to promote, he just needs to stick with friends. Not that he wouldn't, being away from what is currently a BB take 20 avoid and 2 defense off of him.

Thing is with Barth, my results are always assured since by average he is going to be the same after a level up no matter what, so his results from insta-promotion are static. Lance needs to not be screwed AND have his supporters around. It's likely he does, but Barth's opportunity is static. This is always how he performs, and nothing can get in the way of it. Sort of an RNG unscrewable if you will.

Axes have 5 more hit than lances with WTD. Wow. Here's a newsflash: axes do not revolutionize Barth's (or any knight's) performance in the Western Isles. And by giving the Knight Crest to Barth to help him keep up, you're delaying the rest of the army from promoting to a higher movement echelon.

That higher echelon helps those people none and screws them later. Also it does, as it helps him become more durable, hit harder and have WT control for the isles. This also gives him time to build up weapon rank for later in the game, so it's not just the isles it helps him in. The promotion helps keep up with foot soldiers now (since we didn't suddenly just mass promote everyone, or are you saying foot soldier move sucks just as bad?), and got him amazing boosts. This is also ignoring the fact that due to the nature of how he works, this performance is static, meaning we are garunteed someone that tough for the isles.

You are also ignoring the fact that Lance using it takes from Noah and Allen, basically anyone who can promote early should put it to best use. Lance needs to not get screwed and have his supports around. All Barth needs to do is gain a level. It's not like Boris where we have to train him all throughout beforehand. Just 1 level, we got static utility right there.

Think Horace

Edited September 18, 2009 by Kuja

[dondon151]

Barth in that time could have been getting better weapon ranks for his axes. He could easily have Steel and Hand Axes by now.

Steel and Hand Axes are E.

13 speed only doubles steel cavs of which there are also javelin users and killer lancers. These killer lancers are packing 23-14 mt. A single crit subdues Noah. Barth on the other hand could take 2 and still be alive. Paladins with their silver are packing 30 Mt. that's 19 damage to Noah. Only 10 to Barth. I'd imagine both could have a support going. Noah I'd think a C with Fir, though Barth could easily have a B with OJ by now. So Noah gets +1 Str, +5 avoid, 3 hit, 3 crit evade. Barth gets +1 Atk, Def, 6 avoid, 10 hit and 10 crit evade. Basically this means that they will have identical crit evade and hit.

Everyone gets OHKO'd by a Killer Lance crit except for Barth. Does that make Barth good? No, it does not. It's great that Barth wants to absorb the hit, but you have to rescue chain him for that sole purpose. You can't hype a unit's performance against a subset of a single enemy type.

Horseslayer is technically 33 mt on them. Barth is effectively pull 48 Mt, Noah 46. What is it you notice about that? Yes, Barth can indeed 1 shot some cavs! Effectively, it cuts resource use in half. If Barth even has another mt somehow, he one shots all cavs. This weapon only has 16 uses. Noah needing to double to kill effectively cuts it down to 8 kills. Since Barth is basically OHKOing half the cavs, he's able to do this and still have 8 uses left.

Uhh... lol. If one shot of Horseslayer reduces a cavalier's HP to single digits, a player with an existent brain would go for the KO with another weapon.

On top of this, Barth is quite a bit more durable, so he's more than allowed to just mow them down. Weakest cav with steel 3RKOs Noah at around 50 displayed (yup, with Fir involved). Yeah Barth will be in the 60s displayed most likely, but they only do 3-4 damage to him. 8-11RKO. I don't care what you say, that's practically triple Noah's survival rate. This also means that he is capable of just flat out destroying a killer lancer, while Noah would have to risk the counter and risk being killed.

Where's Barth? Not anywhere near combat? I see.

Just to drive the point home, Noah needs 7 levels for this effect, Barth only needs 1.

7 levels aren't hard to gain when he sees a lot of combat and has good accuracy in conjunction with the enemy having poor hit rates.

His hit rates are just fine and has a willing support to help no less.

Barth's hit rates in the Western Isles aren't "just fine." They're on the level of Gonzales, except he doesn't double for two chances at hitting (or a chance at ORKO), and he has sword-using units to compete with who pretty much guarantee that every strike is a hit.

(invincible in Sacae, can protect your ass in Ilia since fliers can fly from any angle, plenty of reinforcements pop up from everywhere in Bern, is still able to take shots after rescuing, what have you. Granted his move sucks then, but he's still got his upsides.

Invincibility has little value in itself when you have trouble doing anything in return. And Barth doesn't help cover your rear against fliers because as you said, they don't have to attack from the rear.

Noah at 14/8 would be similar to Barth at 10/12. This is reasonable for chapter 21 I believe, and guess what? 15 speed doesn't double a goddamn thing. If Barth's offense output is trash...

Noah sees a shitload more combat than Barth, so why do they have the same number of total levels?

No, he clearly does not. He would prefer to wait, maybe he would be able to actually double things later on, namely Wyverns.

I don't know what those WKs wield. If they wield Steel Lances, 17/8 Noah can double them with 16 AS. If they wield anything lighter, then Noah has no hope anyways.

The problem is, it requires a support. What if Allen peels away? What if I don't use Allen?

Who separates Lance and Allen? And who doesn't use the two of them in conjunction?

At least with Barth, my offense is assured.

No, it's not. Your offense relies on +15 hit from OJ, who is less likely to be played than Allen.

Along with that, we also get the same effect with Roy being around. So Lance doesn't really need to promote, he just needs to stick with friends. Not that he wouldn't, being away from what is currently a BB take 20 avoid and 2 defense off of him.

Very often Roy won't be able to keep up. Rescue chaining and attacking never happens at the same time, so while Lance can escort Roy to the throne/gate, he can't carry him if he's going to see combat.

You are also ignoring the fact that Lance using it takes from Noah and Allen, basically anyone who can promote early should put it to best use. Lance needs to not get screwed and have his supports around. All Barth needs to do is gain a level. It's not like Boris where we have to train him all throughout beforehand. Just 1 level, we got static utility right there.

You're countering my opportunity cost argument and then you're using it against me. Allen doesn't need a Knight Crest to ORKO things (though IIRC he's also borderline against some stuff so he could use it too) and Noah isn't that likely to be played.

[grandjackal]

Steel and Hand Axes are E.

Oh right, I keep forgetting steel and handies are E in this game. What's D in this game?

...Oh right! Halberd and Hammer! With the Halberd, he'd just flat out OHKO all cavs

Everyone gets OHKO'd by a Killer Lance crit except for Barth. Does that make Barth good? No, it does not. It's great that Barth wants to absorb the hit, but you have to rescue chain him for that sole purpose. You can't hype a unit's performance against a subset of a single enemy type.

Rescue chain? I don't think you understand. See, a crit would do very little to Barth, and the other enemies around don't do much either. He can take their shots just fine, he doesn't need to be rescued because he's just a hard-ass.

Besides, I CAN hype his defense, since Noah's not exactly reliably avoiding. He gets 3RKOd, with avoid in the 50s even with C Fir. Hell, I can hype the fact that he can just whip out the halberd and utterly rape everything, since he's garunteed to OHKO all cavs with it.

Uhh... lol. If one shot of Horseslayer reduces a cavalier's HP to single digits, a player with an existent brain would go for the KO with another weapon.

Good thing I don't have to worry about that at all with Barth.

Where's Barth? Not anywhere near combat? I see.

He's with the rest of your foot soldiers with his 5 move. Oh I'm sorry, were you implying only cavs see action ever, especially with Noah's mediocre performance? I suppose he shouldn't have the Fir support then! Hell as a paladin, his 8 move roams out of support range immediately with her 5. Less acc, less avoid, less power. He actually is starting to seem like Barth without the defense or the strength.

7 levels aren't hard to gain when he sees a lot of combat and has good accuracy in conjunction with the enemy having poor hit rates.

1 level isn't hard to get...Because it's 1 goddamn level. I could do that on friggin' accident.

Barth's hit rates in the Western Isles aren't "just fine." They're on the level of Gonzales, except he doesn't double for two chances at hitting (or a chance at ORKO), and he has sword-using units to compete with who pretty much guarantee that every strike is a hit.

Well it's not AS bad, but I guess a support would help him considerably. OJ is decently likely to be played, so that helps. What of Lillina though? I know she's quite a bit lower, but do let me explain.

You see, Light and Ice are an incredible team. People say she needs a wall with her at all times. Well with the same move now, he CAN do this just by himself. On top of this, this helps train her considerably. So, how fast do we get the bonuses? Well 15 turns, we get 1 Def, 5 Hit, 3 Avoid, 3 crit. However, that Defense helps them both. We all know Lillina has durability issues, so the pure defense boost helps her considerably. Barth becomes even tougher, even harder to kill and thus very rarely do you actually even need to look after him, since most of the time he could take care of himself with just a vulnery. Every level makes them both tougher, and it's relatively fast. However, I will not push for this unless others seem to agree it's a nice boon.

OJ though included with 25 to C, he quickly can get +10 hit. With that, that's 20 turns closer to B with Lillina for another piece of defense, 5 more hit, more minor avoid and crit boosts, and even a point in attack.

Invincibility has little value in itself when you have trouble doing anything in return. And Barth doesn't help cover your rear against fliers because as you said, they don't have to attack from the rear.

Considering his possible Str and the fact he could probably have Silver Axes by now, he could actually become that close to a 2RKO. I can't imagine anyone ORKOing these things anyways.

That much is true, but your other guys would prefer not to be attacked in another area, right? They wanna power ahead, and Barth could easily have your back.

Noah sees a shitload more combat than Barth, so why do they have the same number of total levels?

I'm sorry, still unreliable avoid and offense along with plenty meh defense sees him more combat? More move doesn't magically make you better than everyone else unless you are statistically great to begin with. Noah is struggling to meet Zealot, and Zealot is not that.

I don't know what those WKs wield. If they wield Steel Lances, 17/8 Noah can double them with 16 AS. If they wield anything lighter, then Noah has no hope anyways.

That's very borderline as is as well. Even with silver though, he's barely doing more damage than Barth with a silver axe. Then if he doesn't double, he's doing 6 damage less.

Who separates Lance and Allen? And who doesn't use the two of them in conjunction?

No one does, but sometimes you have to move out of support range to get at someone. Not moving and not attacking is inefficient, so don't just say you'll wait for the next turn. Every time, that's 15 avoid, 1 defense, 3 attack, 9 hit and crit lost. Suddenly, Lance's dodge isn't perfect as we like, he's exposed to his merely ok durability. Barth doesn't really ever have to deal with that. Due to his results being far more static and being dependent on none, I see no reason to promote either cav early over him.

No, it's not. Your offense relies on +15 hit from OJ, who is less likely to be played than Allen.

A B with OJ is 10 hit. not 15. If he A'd with him, his hit would be in the 80s. His accuracy is still pretty decent without.

Very often Roy won't be able to keep up. Rescue chaining and attacking never happens at the same time, so while Lance can escort Roy to the throne/gate, he can't carry him if he's going to see combat.

But what of times Roy's in danger? I certainly wouldn't rely on a cav to do it. You say he could just re-move out of enemy range, but there's a problem. That's moving Roy AWAY from the throne, which slows me down. Barth could rescue on the spot, since it's hard to get him killed anyways. Afterwards, Lance could take Roy off him, Allen could ride up and rescue drop, thus getting their whole boost.

True that throne escort is nice, but it DOES have the problem of cutting into offense like you said. Barth rescuing on the spot hurts no one but himself, and it hurts him VERY little. On the other hand, this does something just as beneficial-saving Roy's live and thus saving us from a game over while not cutting into time spent getting Roy to the throne.

You're countering my opportunity cost argument and then you're using it against me. Allen doesn't need a Knight Crest to ORKO things (though IIRC he's also borderline against some stuff so he could use it too) and Noah isn't that likely to be played.

Well If Noah's not played as often, Allen doesn't need it to ORKO things, and Lance doesn't change at all, why NOT give it to Barth?

As for opportunity cost on it, there isn't really when you think about it. It barely helps any of the cavs if at all, and benefits Barth the most. It's true all of them can use it, but it should be measured who benefits most. Example: FEDS. Maric is one of the people likely to get the first knight's proof. However, any earlygame healer is just as likely. Maric benefits the most, thus why he's so high. However, he's not assumed to get it every time, as the others can use it too. Thus the others' tier standing is based on this, since it's not like Maric can't wait anyways.

It's true here too really. Lance and Allen apparently don't change at all apparently, and Noah keeps us from using it for 5 chapters to do basically worse than Barth anyways at that time. Allen and Lance can very easily wait, and Noah needs to wait. This is because an early promo would ruin their lategame potential, while it can only improve Barth's with time to get superior weapon rank while earning the right to be there in the first place since now he's actually been very considerable at what was once thought to be his worst time.

It's not like it's gonna drop Allen and Lance, it won't even effect Noah's placement. But Barth DOES get noticeable boosts from an early promotion. It should be noted.

[dondon151]

...Oh right! Halberd and Hammer! With the Halberd, he'd just flat out OHKO all cavs

Halberd's hit rate is inferior to Horseslayer's even with WTA.

Besides, I CAN hype his defense, since Noah's not exactly reliably avoiding. He gets 3RKOd, with avoid in the 50s even with C Fir. Hell, I can hype the fact that he can just whip out the halberd and utterly rape everything, since he's garunteed to OHKO all cavs with it.

You can certainly expound on the merits of Barth's defense, but look at its application. Units with 7 move get the the front line before units with 5 move, which means that enemy phase combat happens more to your cavs than to your armors. You bring up Noah's questionable durability to counter this, but in chapter 13 there are tons of points where you can stick units so that a unit will only face 1 or 2 attacks maximum on enemy phase.

So really, you can stick Barth in a crowd and he'll be fine, but Barth will never get to that point. Similarly, you can't stick Noah into a crowd, but any player with a brain won't be dumb enough to ignore using possible chokepoints.

He's with the rest of your foot soldiers with his 5 move. Oh I'm sorry, were you implying only cavs see action ever, especially with Noah's mediocre performance? I suppose he shouldn't have the Fir support then! Hell as a paladin, his 8 move roams out of support range immediately with her 5. Less acc, less avoid, less power. He actually is starting to seem like Barth without the defense or the strength.

I was implying that cavaliers see the majority of enemy phase action while foot units clean up.

Well it's not AS bad, but I guess a support would help him considerably. OJ is decently likely to be played, so that helps. What of Lillina though? I know she's quite a bit lower, but do let me explain.

Lilina, sure, but Barth can't bait attacks and build points with Lilina at the same time (generally) whereas Noah can do that with Fir because the latter's durability isn't as bad.

Considering his possible Str and the fact he could probably have Silver Axes by now, he could actually become that close to a 2RKO. I can't imagine anyone ORKOing these things anyways.

Are you talking about PKs or WKs? WK slayers come in the form of your mages and warriors/snipers/heroes.

I'm sorry, still unreliable avoid and offense along with plenty meh defense sees him more combat? More move doesn't magically make you better than everyone else unless you are statistically great to begin with. Noah is struggling to meet Zealot, and Zealot is not that.

More move makes you better when you have more partners to match movement with, and there are lots of mounted units in this game.

No one does, but sometimes you have to move out of support range to get at someone.

This is only the case for one attack on player phase where one has to move before the other. For general purposes this is pretty much ignored.

A B with OJ is 10 hit. not 15. If he A'd with him, his hit would be in the 80s. His accuracy is still pretty decent without.

I'm assuming this support gets to A at some point in the game...?

I dun feel like countering the rest of your post because it's too much work but there definitely is opportunity cost associated with giving Barth the first Knight Crest, to the point where you can't say "well lol y not?"

[grandjackal]

Halberd's hit rate is inferior to Horseslayer's even with WTA.

These are still options that Noah doesn't have, and it helps Barth perform all the better.

You can certainly expound on the merits of Barth's defense, but look at its application. Units with 7 move get the the front line before units with 5 move, which means that enemy phase combat happens more to your cavs than to your armors. You bring up Noah's questionable durability to counter this, but in chapter 13 there are tons of points where you can stick units so that a unit will only face 1 or 2 attacks maximum on enemy phase.

Which is reducing how many enemies I fight on enemy phase. Why attack 1 or 2 when I can just have Barth killface? Deliberately placing units to only be attacked as such when someone can just bathe in the melee is why archers are considered to have no countering at all.

So really, you can stick Barth in a crowd and he'll be fine, but Barth will never get to that point. Similarly, you can't stick Noah into a crowd, but any player with a brain won't be dumb enough to ignore using possible chokepoints.

Yet not all maps are chokepoint heavy. What then? You're basically implying that Barth never reaches the front lines even at times when he's of equal movement of your foot soldiers.

I was implying that cavaliers see the majority of enemy phase action while foot units clean up.

Yeah, when they don't suck. Allen and Lance have supports with eachother to make them awesome in this sense, and Percival is captain killface. Noah is not one of these people, especially since his durability is crumby at these times. His use in this sense is rather questionable.

Lilina, sure, but Barth can't bait attacks and build points with Lilina at the same time (generally) whereas Noah can do that with Fir because the latter's durability isn't as bad.

Lolwut? Barth in this sense is always gonna be a wall in front of her, their presence helping eachother survive with defense and avoid (as minimal as the latter is). Once the support is built up (really doesn't take that long), she doesn't have to be right next to him all the time.

Noah? Well we have to hold him back to build his support with Fir (eliminating the point of move advantage of him alltogether at this time), and the support isn't even going to benefit him all the time due to move difference. It starts off a difference of two. With an early promo, he's now able to just move out of range of the support anyways turn 1. Rescue dropping cuts into his offense, and he needs to drop or else he just gets murdered as he has nothing to bolster his defense at this time due to no built up supports as of yet. At least when Lillina and OJ promote, the move difference is only 1. That won't even be that big a deal, since by then they'd have built up by then.

Are you talking about PKs or WKs? WK slayers come in the form of your mages and warriors/snipers/heroes.

I notice Paladins aren't in that sentence. These people also happen to have their little problems.

Mages are incredibly vulnerable, your warriors need to be constantly traded out between bows and axes and usually are packing weak bows anyways, snipers need a wall lest enemy phase is wasted and are semi-vulnerable depending on who you're talking about, and heroes aren't weak or strong in any area concerning wyverns unless you're king Deick, god of the universe. Sometimes a dude who does a solid chunk of damage could help all these guys perform better, and having Barth smoke up some fuckers or finish off with a single hit is always welcome. This is especially since he is plenty likely to not die.

More move makes you better when you have more partners to match movement with, and there are lots of mounted units in this game.

How many of them are good? I spot 3, Marcus being the exception due to his entire position being earlygame. The rest are rather mediocre. Move alone doesn't excuse you for being bland and unnoticeable. These 3 I also doubt will miss the contributions of Noah.

This is only the case for one attack on player phase where one has to move before the other. For general purposes this is pretty much ignored.

This isn't general, due to the person being argued gets his durability entirely supportless. When Allen and Lance are out of range, they are vulnerable that turn. Miledy's got no supports, look where she is.

I'm assuming this support gets to A at some point in the game...?

A gives 5 more hit, 3 avoid and crit. It's not a major loss, but if you think they can have an A by this time, I don't see why not.

I dun feel like countering the rest of your post because it's too much work but there definitely is opportunity cost associated with giving Barth the first Knight Crest, to the point where you can't say "well lol y not?"

The only excuses for this I can see are "giving it to people who will remain the same after it's use anyways" and "lolarmor".

I think the greater opportunity cost would be that the paladins would stay the same after its use, and it only serves to make them worse later.

Edited September 19, 2009 by Kuja

[CATS]

Exactly how do paladins stay the same after promoting? +2 or +3 to every stat is insignificant?

[grandjackal]

Exactly how do paladins stay the same after promoting? +2 or +3 to every stat is insignificant?

Allen went from ORKOing on the isles to ORKOing on the isles, Lance went from 2RKOing to 2RKOing, Noah went from crap to unsalvageable crap. They may have shinier stats, but it didn't actually help their overall performance. In exchange, I gave them slower leveling speeds which essentially dooms them later on.

On the other hand, Barth as seen went from crappy to quite good.

[CATS]

Allen went from ORKOing on the isles to ORKOing on the isles, Lance went from 2RKOing to 2RKOing, Noah went from crap to unsalvageable crap. They may have shinier stats, but it didn't actually help their overall performance. In exchange, I gave them slower leveling speeds which essentially dooms them later on.

Where's enemy stats for this game?