Efficiency Tier List?

[dondon151]

Also, light magic doesn't appear until ch 11, by which point he should be 15-20 rather than 10.

I have never gotten a healer to level 15 by chapter 11.

Usually I rotate Saul and Ellen and always field Clarine, and I've always had Clarine's level slightly trailing that of the top tier units in my team, who are usually around level 13-14 by chapter 11.

[grandjackal]

I have gotten a healer to that level by then so I can actually agree with Reikken on this deal. I'm guessing it involves using up the Unlock staff along with using the free Mend staffs.

[Mekkah]

Fine, so her and he have a fair claim both for the first.

No, what Reikken is saying is that no one has a significant claim from it since all of them benefit quite a lot from early promotion.

[dondon151]

No, what Reikken is saying is that no one has a significant claim from it since all of them benefit quite a lot from early promotion.

I disagree; Ellen will never fix her AS issues regardless of when we promote her and Lugh might get AS issues from early promotion as well. Saul and Clarine are really the only 2 serious contenders for the first Guiding Ring if they want to promote early.

[Mekkah]

For Ellen, if her AS is unfixable you may as well promote her when you can so she gets the choice of attacking or healing earlier, as well as better stats earlier and getting Aureola quicker. Lugh probably loses out in the long run qua spd, yeah, but he also gets 4 hp, 4 mag and 2 def earlier. And Ray's bonuses are like Lugh++.

[grandjackal]

For Ellen, if her AS is unfixable you may as well promote her when you can so she gets the choice of attacking or healing earlier, as well as better stats earlier and getting Aureola quicker. Lugh probably loses out in the long run qua spd, yeah, but he also gets 4 hp, 4 mag and 2 def earlier. And Ray's bonuses are like Lugh++.

That's the thing though, I have no reason not to promote Saul over Ellen, because he's the same just twice as better due to more durability and speed to double. Promoting her in Saul's place is like saying "I want Saul, but not nearly as good". Personally, I'd let her wait anyways just out of the gamble of getting her as much stats as I can before I promote her, considering how bad she needs it. Saul would build weapon rank faster anyways, thanks to doubling.

If the cavs are level 12 by the isles, I can only think to imagine Lou is probably level 10. Promoting Lou now, we got a dude with 11 speed. Back when I was bitching about Boris, 11 speed was found to not be enough to double anything aside from some enemies in chapter 9. Afterwards, it's not doubling much outside of steel axers. You didn't just screw him out of speed later, you practically did so instantly.

Ray joins nearly at the end of the isles, and only 3 chapters away from the desert ring. I don't think he'd mind waiting a little bit.

[Reikken]

Personally, I'd let her wait anyways just out of the gamble of getting her as much stats as I can before I promote her, considering how bad she needs it.

On the contrary, the earlier Ellen is promoted, the better her speed is when she does attack. Low growth, good base. She doubles earlier more than later. And she's going to be near 20 by then anyway.

[grandjackal]

Hmmm...Looking it over, it seems to be the case. Just I think with Saul, it's a better long term investment. Both will have offense from there, but methinks Saul is more durable, and will keep his doubling aspect basically throughout, while Ellen will eventually lose hers.

[Fei Mao]

Did Lou vs Lot get discussed yet? I can't see how Lot will benefit in the long run vs Lou

[grandjackal]

Did Lou vs Lot get discussed yet? I can't see how Lot will benefit in the long run vs Lou

No it hasn't, but I doubt Lou could win it. Lot just starts out far better due to durability, weapon effectiveness, and just better at combat in general. Even when he improves, he's still rather flimsy. On top of that, Lou doesn't really have useful supports. Ellen helps his offense, but that's the best he's gonna get.

Only place I can see Lou going is down.

[Fruitloop Multipuck]

So, has anyone ever given any thought to using Angelic Robes from the Chapter 16 Secret Shop on units with poor durability but good offense to increase their durability and therefore let us use their good offense more and thereby improve efficiency? Obviously, this is probably only viable if we have a good amount of leftover money to do that in the first place after we get all our promotion items and Killer weapons and such. Do we have said leftover money, and if so how much?

(There are more options for stat boosters in the Chapter 21 secret shop to fix a wider range of stat issues, though by that point there's so little left in the game that considering it seems less likely to be worth looking into.)

I'm not sure what if any changes this would cause on the list, since fairly few people would likely have the stat combination to benefit from it notably moreso than others, much less be able to rise above others with it considered, for now I'm more wondering if the theoretical idea seems sound to anyone else.

Edited September 30, 2009 by Destiny Puck

[grandjackal]

It's not like individual stat boosters we find along the way. Chances are you're just gonna give it to low durability people, and I see no reason to spend even more money on them for the soul purpose of raising them on the list.

As for how much money we're most likely to have, I'll put it this way: Hue is in Low for a reason. FE6 is probably one of the more resource-contrained games in the series.

Actually...Cheap-ass Hue is actually a lot like Lou with more durability, though obviously not the speed (loses by 4). But, if we pay full price, he is better than Lou in basically every way outside of resistance, of which is lol 1. Basically he is expensive, but he basically shows up and is your best mage. Like, none come close. He's got speed over Ray and Lillina, he's got power over Lou, and has a severe durability lead over every single mage in the game. He's basically Allen if he were a sage, minus 7 HP.

Granted, he has no real decent supports due to speed, but he also took no effort to be this good.

If only he weren't so damn expensive...

Edited September 30, 2009 by France

[Dat Nick]

Since we arent playing for rank we need to ask just how much 10k is. You have to consider that you will almost never use more than one Orion's Bolt so that already leaves a lot of promotion items to be sold, and Whips are seldom used as well.

[Mekkah]

So, has anyone ever given any thought to using Angelic Robes from the Chapter 16 Secret Shop on units with poor durability but good offense to increase their durability and therefore let us use their good offense more and thereby improve efficiency?

We already generally assume prepromotes can reasonably get one or two Angelic Robes.

As for how much money we're most likely to have, I'll put it this way: Hue is in Low for a reason. FE6 is probably one of the more resource-contrained games in the series.

Dunno about that. You get 18k up to Ch6 alone. And then:

Ch7 Red Gem (x2)

Ch11A 500 (5000?)G

Ch11B Red Gem

Klein White Gem

Ch12 Blue Gem

Ch12x White Gem

Ch12x Red Gem

Ch14 Silver Card

Ch16 Red Gem (x2), Blue Gem, 5000G

And Ch20 has some gems too but Ch20 is pretty late. And there's some things like Goddess Icons, superfluous Lockpicks, etc. I don't think I've ever been really constrained by money in this game. Of course, this is also a game where you have to buy like 2 promo items in Ch16, might want to buy killers before Silver Card comes, etc.

[Dat Nick]

And there's some things like Goddess Icons

Iono, do people actually run odds of getting critkilled in this game by non killers? Saul would certainly appreciate one.

I mean don't get me wrong I'm all for Hugh up but....

Anyway, I think AS is a bigger obstacle for Hugh up. Lugh just needs to be level 13 to beat him there, and considering the jointime disparity he'll be much higher than that.

Edited September 30, 2009 by Germany

[dondon151]

Iono, do people actually run odds of getting critkilled in this game by non killers? Saul would certainly appreciate one.

Crit chances are usually reduced by cev from supports. I think Saul would like one [Goddess Icon] considering how likely it is for Dorothy not to be in play.

Edited September 30, 2009 by dondon151

[Mekkah]

I don't think 2 CEV is really going to help Saul. At base, he goes from requiring 6 skl to requiring 10 skl to have crt on him, which is okay I guess since it rules out anything but fast swordies and bosses, but he should never be fighting to begin with. So skip to his promo, where he has 4 luk without and 6 luk with. Does that really eliminate enough crit chances to be worth it when you could sell it for 4000G?

[dondon151]

Chapter 13:

[grandjackal]

We already generally assume prepromotes can reasonably get one or two Angelic Robes.

I'd assume Echidna and Niime would want one, but I can't imagine another prepromote who would actually care for one.

Dunno about that. You get 18k up to Ch6 alone. And then:

Ch7 Red Gem (x2)

Ch11A 500 (5000?)G

Ch11B Red Gem

Klein White Gem

Ch12 Blue Gem

Ch12x White Gem

Ch12x Red Gem

Ch14 Silver Card

Ch16 Red Gem (x2), Blue Gem, 5000G

And Ch20 has some gems too but Ch20 is pretty late. And there's some things like Goddess Icons, superfluous Lockpicks, etc. I don't think I've ever been really constrained by money in this game. Of course, this is also a game where you have to buy like 2 promo items in Ch16, might want to buy killers before Silver Card comes, etc.

It's that last sentence that makes me say this. There are some things that we are concerned with buying, of which are also quite expensive.

Only concern I guess is what else are we selling other than gems? I suppose there are some stat boosters (lol, Secret Books, Goddess Icons) and we tend not to use more than one Orion's Bolt. We could have enough, but we might be skirting off bankruptcy.

Iono, do people actually run odds of getting critkilled in this game by non killers? Saul would certainly appreciate one.

I mean don't get me wrong I'm all for Hugh up but....

Anyway, I think AS is a bigger obstacle for Hugh up. Lugh just needs to be level 13 to beat him there, and considering the jointime disparity he'll be much higher than that.

Saul has generally all the time to support Ellen, of which just a C practically eliminates the few problems he had. Then again, Ellen's not always in play..But basically, anyone with the skill to crit him also probably has the accuracy to hit him, of which I wouldn't have him get attacked anyways, since his magic range helps save him in those cases. His luck is almost a non-factor.

Gotta love Ice.

*sees Dondon's post*

Errrrr ok, maybe luck is a big enough factor. Yeesh.

Edited September 30, 2009 by France

[Fruitloop Multipuck]

Bors up to above Barth? Bors can contribute some early on even if he's not very good. Even if Bors only gets to Level 6 or so by the time Barth shows up (Going out of your way to get Bors kills seems unlikely to be worth it, hence the low level), Barth won't really be meaningfully better. Barth wins by decimal amounts in HP, Skl, and Res, 1.5 Str and 1.25 Def, then same Speed and Bors wins Luck. From there Barth mainly extends his Strength lead while Bors gets more Speed and Luck. I'm not sure we care because of all the concrete durability he has, but Barth rivals Saul for terrible Luck. For supports, Bors's Wind vs. Barth's Ice. Barth's supports with Oujay and Asthol are 5 turns faster, then they both support Lilina and Wendy at the same speed and could also support each other. Most of those supports are with bad-to-terrible units, so I'd assume Asthol is the only one likely to be in play to get their support. Bottom line is, similar units and one of them has more availability

And I would support at least Saul to above Roy. Maybe Shin above Roy as well?

Edited October 2, 2009 by Destiny Puck

[grandjackal]

Bors up to above Barth? Bors can contribute some early on even if he's not very good. Even if Bors only gets to Level 6 or so by the time Barth shows up (Going out of your way to get Bors kills seems unlikely to be worth it, hence the low level), Barth won't really be meaningfully better. Barth wins by decimal amounts in HP, Skl, and Res, 1.5 Str and 1.25 Def, then same Speed and Bors wins Luck. From there Barth mainly extends his Strength lead while Bors gets more Speed and Luck. I'm not sure we care because of all the concrete durability he has, but Barth rivals Saul for terrible Luck. For supports, Bors's Wind vs. Barth's Ice. Barth's supports with Oujay and Asthol are 5 turns faster, then they both support Lilina and Wendy at the same speed and could also support each other. Most of those supports are with bad-to-terrible units, so I'd assume Asthol is the only one likely to be in play to get their support. Bottom line is, similar units and one of them has more availability

And I would support at least Saul to above Roy. Maybe Shin above Roy as well?

Due to Boris being bad for basically his entire existence before Barth shows up, people consider him a detriment. This is basically the entire opinion of everyone on Boris. Basically you will need to show the following to get Boris even anywhere near Barth.

-That he can get to nearly equal levels by the time he shows up (Seriously, ONLY level 6 when Barth shows up? )

-Show he's not a detriment early on, but rather a positive.

-Show his speed lead actually means something other than being a pretty number (good luck).

-Show that Boris becomes better than Barth at any point in time.

I could promtoe Barth early, basically right before i start the isles, and I got a perfectly usable general who actually does his job properly at said time. Only way Boris can beat him is if he can show he can get an offense lead, and I mean like doubling.

As for supports? The Ostians want Barth, no contest. Offense is like the last of their problems save Barth, who should just be concentrating on sheer defense. The Ostians would love Barth's Ice over Boris's Wind. OJ and Lillina kill faster, but Lillina would prefer the defense, and OJ would love everything Ice has to offer, even if it is a shitty combination with hsi own affinity as it helps his class even more, due to his stats and soon, weapon control. These supports also fix his bad accuracy, and basically destroy whatever problem luck gave him.Ashtor's generally no good at a certain point in time, but he benefits Barth far more than Boris just for both getting the +1 Def and the superior avoid Barth gives. Even friggin' Wendy wants Barth for the defense and avoid, as that's basically what she needs to get anywhere near functional. Wind sure as hell isn't doing that for her.

I may be a bit biased towards knights, but I learned to keep a cool head now. Boris really does need some fantastic sort of advantages to beat Barth with all the suck he garners up until then, even despite being forced.

[Fruitloop Multipuck]

Show he's not a detriment early on, but rather a positive.

If he doesn't even take up a slot, then I don't see how Bors is a negative early on. Even just throwing around Javelins would be a positive. Maybe he would be a negative if you went out of your way to help him a lot rather than have him help the team, but that's why I only made him Level 6, I'm not expecting people to put much effort into early game Bors.

-That he can get to nearly equal levels by the time he shows up (Seriously, ONLY level 6 when Barth shows up? )

Uh, why? At Level 6 he was already only minimally worse.

I could promtoe Barth early, basically right before i start the isles, and I got a perfectly usable general who actually does his job properly at said time.

I suppose one would have to get Bors to Level 10 to promote, but once you did that he's not much different than 10/1 Barth. Using an early Knight's Crest on either of these two seems like probably a waste to me, though.

OJ and Lillina kill faster, but Lillina would prefer the defense

I dunno. Is it really a good idea to leave Lilina exposed on enemy phase even with a Barth support?

and OJ would love everything Ice has to offer, even if it is a shitty combination with hsi own affinity as it helps his class even more, due to his stats and soon, weapon control.

C support with Barth gets him basically nothing; at least he gets a point of attack from Bors. The B support bonuses are better than Bors', the difference being 1 Defence and 5 Avoid vs. 1 Attack and 5 Crit. I could see either support.

These supports also fix his bad accuracy, and basically destroy whatever problem luck gave him.

Bors' accuracy really isn't much better so he likes the supports for that reason too. Though if you don't get supports (Much like Bors and Barth themselves, these units they can support are not good! >_>), Barth's possibly existing Luck problem is still there.

Ashtor would like Barth more, sure. lol Wendy.

[grandjackal]

If he doesn't even take up a slot, then I don't see how Bors is a negative early on. Even just throwing around Javelins would be a positive. Maybe he would be a negative if you went out of your way to help him a lot rather than have him help the team, but that's why I only made him Level 6, I'm not expecting people to put much effort into early game Bors.

That's the thing, he's not a positive either. He's just sort of there. He's not helping us go faster, and this is wy people dump all over him.

Uh, why? At Level 6 he was already only minimally worse.

Barth is level 9, and apparently better. 1 leve, I prepromote him. Bam, Barth is already better than Boris will ever be. It's basically you don't need to put effort into Barth to have him be useful. His only problem is the opportunity cost of the knight's crest, of which apparently the cavs baw at not promoting early, despite wanting to promote later anyways.

I suppose one would have to get Bors to Level 10 to promote, but once you did that he's not much different than 10/1 Barth. Using an early Knight's Crest on either of these two seems like probably a waste to me, though.

It's more a waste on anything else otherwise, as the cavs want to wait a bit anyways. Barth improves by a significant margin. Boris would too, but he has the whole problem of needing to be raised up first.

I dunno. Is it really a good idea to leave Lilina exposed on enemy phase even with a Barth support?

It helps her get killed less, so yes it IS a good thing. The less I have to coddle, the better. Besides, what better team? He gets defense and hit, he can be hte wall that weakens things for her, she finishes to level up easier, rince and repeat.

C support with Barth gets him basically nothing; at least he gets a point of attack from Bors. The B support bonuses are better than Bors', the difference being 1 Defence and 5 Avoid vs. 1 Attack and 5 Crit. I could see either support.

They only care for a B anyways, though for an A? 9 avoid and 1 defense is better than none, especially for speedy lucky OJ. Also, more hit with those axes, the better for both.

Bors' accuracy really isn't much better so he likes the supports for that reason too. Though if you don't get supports (Much like Bors and Barth themselves, these units they can support are not good! >_>), Barth's possibly existing Luck problem is still there.

Ashtor would like Barth more, sure. lol Wendy.

His luck problems is practically canceled by his sheer defense and the fact that OJ gives Crit Evade. Just an A, Barth cuts killer crit in half. OJ might damn well bring it down to laughable numbers.

Basically though, you're just naming all his problems. Using a null unit when he's forced, bad when not, who is hard to train due to move to the point he's apparently level 6 when Barth arrives. Barth being level 9 only need a level to promote, while Boris needs 4. When it comes to sucking, the faster you get out of it the better, and armor's fast solution is early promotion. Barth gets there first, so it's an instant loss for Boris.

Even then, you haven't even shown evidence that Boris is better if you do promote him early in a similar fashion. He's basically Barth with about 8 more hit from Luck, and is otherwise not even that different. He would have 10 AS if promoted at 10, which would be great if it doubled anything. Basically all it means is he can double knights, but Barth can double their slow asses too.

[Fruitloop Multipuck]

Basically though, you're just naming all his problems. Using a null unit when he's forced, bad when not, who is hard to train due to move to the point he's apparently level 6 when Barth arrives.

I really just chose 6 because it seemed sufficiently low and even then wasn't really causing any stat losses to care about versus Barth at base. Except I didn't consider early promotion for them, so I suppose Bors might have bigger issues than I thought.

It's more a waste on anything else otherwise, as the cavs want to wait a bit anyways.

They do want to wait longer, or so I would think, it's just that the second Knight's Crest doesn't arrive until the end of Chapter 15. They probably don't want to wait quite that long.

It helps her get killed less, so yes it IS a good thing. The less I have to coddle, the better.

I suppose sometimes it could make it so that some enemies 2RKO her instead of ORKO. So we can sometimes expose her to 1 enemy and get hit once before we have to heal her or wall her in again. Obviously beneficial, nothing to get excited about.

Besides, what better team? He gets defense and hit, he can be hte wall that weakens things for her, she finishes to level up easier, rince and repeat.

Support with Bors works basically the same way. Except obviously Bors gets less defense from the support owing to his own affinity.

They only care for a B anyways, though for an A? 9 avoid and 1 defense is better than none, especially for speedy lucky OJ. Also, more hit with those axes, the better for both.

7 Avoid. And Bors and Oujay also gives full Hit, and 3 Attack and 15 Crit is better than 1 and 7.

His luck problems is practically canceled by his sheer defense and the fact that OJ gives Crit Evade. Just an A, Barth cuts killer crit in half. OJ might damn well bring it down to laughable numbers.

Reread what you were responding to until you see the problem.

He's basically Barth with about 8 more hit from Luck, and is otherwise not even that different

Indeed. This is basically the entire point of most of the arguments I've made.

Though if all of the following are true:

-Bors really does have null performance pre-Barth because he is not helping faster or safer chapter completion.

-Bors is going to be at Level 6 or worse by the time Barth shows up for Bors to not be a negative prior to then.

-Promoting Barth in Chapter 9 is worth it.

-Bors' extra Speed doesn't give him extra doubling opportunities.

...Then yeah, I concede that Bors should stay below Barth. Though should anyone have reason to doubt one or more of those, do say so.

Edited October 3, 2009 by Destiny Puck

[dondon151]

So uh, what happened to Roy moving down?

Also, this may just be a side effect of playing too much 0% growths, but I think Thany needs to move up. I'm not sure where, as flier utility is hard to directly compare to combat utility, but it might be able to move her to high (as Reikken asserted that her combat problems weren't that bad midgame).

The only issue I have with Reikken's comparisons was that their supports were way too fast. I'm at chapter 11E and Thany still has C Dieck, even though I stick them together whenever possible. Dieck got C Lot at the end of chapter 6, and I stopped deploying Lot past chapter 7, so I can't say anything about the speed of the B support, but it will probably be at least chapter 11 before that happens. And finally, Thany never got to C with Lot before chapter 8.