Efficiency Tier List?

[Dat Nick]

We're reducing efficiency early on by a relatively small amount to get greater returns out of chapter 9 and onwards.

Why does this ONLY apply with Thany? The exact same [at least a similar] argument with Ross got shot down on the FE8 List, so why is Thany getting a free pass on the exact same thing?

Edited October 8, 2009 by Athena's Chest

[dondon151]

I didn't participate in the FE8 tier list discussion on Ross.

[Progenitus]

I think Thany having 8 move and flying makes it easier to feed her kills than Ross having 4 move and no flying, so the amount of efficiency lost when babying Thany is smaller than when babying Ross. I don't know how Thany or Ross fare against their respective enemies though, so I'm not sure.

[CATS]

People were trying to give Ross liek 3-4 levels per chapter. Here it's only being proposed that Thany gains 1 level per chapter. Even with Ross's higher Exp gains considered, that's a significant difference. There's also significance in the fact that this is FE6, while Ross is in FE8--this game is alot harder and you have to go alot slower. FE8 chapters are being done in like 8-9 turns while chaps in this game are often 15+ (from what I remember of people posting their turncounts, atleast; correct me if I'm wrong), and enemies take alot more time and effort to die in this game, so Thany gets more opportunities to see combat than Ross does.

[Dat Nick]

Well chew on this. If we can give Thany a free pass on early promotion, we can give Shin one too since he has even less competition for his item in the form of lolWalt, Dorothy, and Sue. So Thany has no excuse to go above Shin.

Edited October 9, 2009 by Athena's Chest

[dondon151]

Shin won't be 10/0 until like the end of chapter 11, though.

[Dat Nick]

so? Shin has much better stats than 10/1 Thany so it compensates.

i.e

10/4 Thany: 29 HP, 10 str, 22 AS, 9 def

10/1 Shin: 33 HP, 12 str, 18 AS, 10 def

I can't see the AS win mattering because Shin has no excuse not to be x2ing everything that exists, plus that win gets lowered to like 1 point if Thany uses Iron just to lose base attack less. Plus not only do bows let him avoid counters, which helps when Thany is far from invincible, they give him a better answer to the wyvern floods lategame.

Edited October 9, 2009 by Athena's Chest

[Mekkah]

But you have to weigh that against Thany's availability, flying, supports and better enemy phase, so v_V

[grandjackal]

Someone also forgot to associate supports and the positive she's had prior to Shin being stuck to bows.

Right, well I'm convinced that Thany could go above Shin. Any objections?

[dondon151]

10/4 Thany with double Cs has 66.8 avo compared to 10/1 Shin, who has 45.8 avo. Thany is soon to get double Bs while Shin is close to C Fir, but that doesn't change her avo lead. Nor does Shin's lower level, since even if he were to level up faster, Thany has .55 more avo growth.

Granted, Thany will be weighed down often, but she can just use swords for -2 to -3 AS (Killing Edge, Silver Sword once she gets the rank), and even with lances she still wins avo by at least 10.

[grandjackal]

These swords also had a part to play in the isles, while Shin at best will promote at the tail end of the isles, of which I doubt iron swords in lance heavy lategame is gonna be quite as helpful.

Right then though, Thany>Shin.

Next order of business, Thany>Gonzales?

Also, someone has brought it up, Tate>The other Ilians.

First off, she starts off basically Noah wit 14 speed. Noah starts with 9. Even with iron lance weighing her down, she has 2 more speed. Forget about his growing any time soon, she has 25% better growth. Hell, she has 10% better Str growth. He has 15% HP and 15% better Def, +weapon control. Same luck base and growth. Sooo, she has avoid leads, offense leads due to doubling, more mobility due to flight. He has weapon control and porbably a slight durability if any by the time they meet. The weapon triangle would matter, but she joins at the tail end of the isles, so the axes are starting to disappear. On top of this, she has 4 more skill, so that's 8 more hit. He needs 9 levels just to match.

Seems like having a durability lead might matter. However, that's when we bring in supports. Noah has other bleh lower mids, but he has Fir. Fir gets 2 attack she wouldn't otherwise get, but she DOES have Bartre and Shin. She is not dependent on him by any means. Tate? Well she has Thany, but they don't exactly help eachother much, and she has other supports. Who does this leave? Klein. Oh my yes. Full avoid, hit and Defense. Her offense is already better and only grows to be better, and her only problem is inferior durability growths. Klein helps patch that up at light speed, and gives her more hit and avoid. Avoid is just always nice, and hit allows her more use of things like javelins. It's 30+2, 15 turns for a C, 30 for a B, 40 for an A. Not exactly slow by any means. Whatever makes Klein hit more at least, he's one of those doesn't care who he supports types.

Then promotion. Both need a couple levels beforehand, but there is issues with this. Noah promoting comes with an opportunity cost, and he doesn't become any better by any means. Freaking Barth has dibs on it more than Noah does. Tate? We get enough whips for every flier save Zeiss wo not only sucks, but joins in a chapter where we can just buy him one anyways. It only further cements her offense lead, and gives her another weapon. early promo does not fix Noah's problem of doubling, and probably only serves to screw him even worse in the end. Axes are nice, but bad offense isn't. Tate on the other hand gets swords for WT neutrality, and she can build it up to get the important swords of Killers, Armorslayers and Wyrmslayers for more versatility.

Uhhh...basically that, rather simple really.

Edited October 9, 2009 by France

[Dat Nick]

But you have to weigh that against Thany's availability

Availability that does what for her? How many chapters has she spent not sucking, one? And SHin was present in that chapter.

supports

Again, supports that do what? We aren't fielding Ward at the isles just so Thany can suck less, and apart from that Lot is her only other option, and the move gap makes that somewhat problematic.

better enemy phase

Better enemy phase? What, Shin's swords don't have one?

Someone also forgot to associate supports and the positive she's had prior to Shin being stuck to bows.

dondon just conceded this timeframe is a grand total of two chapters so...

10/4 Thany with double Cs has 66.8 avo compared to 10/1 Shin, who has 45.8 avo. Thany is soon to get double Bs while Shin is close to C Fir, but that doesn't change her avo lead. Nor does Shin's lower level, since even if he were to level up faster, Thany has .55 more avo growth.

And? Shin has a concrete durability win, access to terrain bonuses, and no bow weakness. In fact, he rapes Bowmen. Hard.

oh, and how did you get 67? I'm getting 62. Thany's Wind affinity doesn't give her full avo, remember.

of which I doubt iron swords in lance heavy lategame is gonna be quite as helpful.

Hm, and who is wielding lances lategame? Wyverns. And what are Wyverns weak to? Bows. And what does Shin have that Thany doesn't?

Speaking of this avo gap. Atm does anybody really care about it? C11 is still in the midgame axes timeframe. Neither have any excuse to be hit by axes...provided they are using swords. Shin can live with the hit rates w/bows, but Thany is in deep shit if she gets caught chucking around a lance.

Edited October 9, 2009 by Athena's Chest

[Florete]

Lategame is not even Lance heavy except for, like, one map. <_<

Edited October 9, 2009 by Red Fox of Fire

[grandjackal]

Availability that does what for her? How many chapters has she spent not sucking, one? And SHin was present in that chapter.

Again, what sucking? You've yet to show her actually sucking, at best she's neutral during her regardlessly forced chapters.

Again, supports that do what? We aren't fielding Ward at the isles just so Thany can suck less, and apart from that Lot is her only other option, and the move gap makes that somewhat problematic.

Deick suddenly died? On the isles. transport is nice. I mean, look at Echidna;s chapter. See the shops? Field lift Deick over the wall, rescue Lot and fly over, Deick rescue drops Lot. I now have a pincer attack against those near the breakable north wall by turn 4.

Then note that in maps where flight isn't any more helpful than a mount, she has no need to be any more far out than your cavs. Speaking of cavs, if Roy and Allen seems unreasonable due to movement difference...

Better enemy phase? What, Shin's swords don't have one?

His iron to her possible steel, all her lances, more active 1-2 range in javies, WT control, avoid lead...

dondon just conceded this timeframe is a grand total of two chapters so...

Who said Shin outperforms her immediately after promotion?

And? Shin has a concrete durability win, access to terrain bonuses, and no bow weakness. In fact, he rapes Bowmen. Hard.

-A very minor one

-terrain and bows are fine.

-Yes, because bowmen are so numerous...

Hm, and who is wielding lances lategame? Wyverns. And what are Wyverns weak to? Bows. And what does Shin have that Thany doesn't?

Wyrmslayers? Oh wait...

[Dat Nick]

Again, what sucking? You've yet to show her actually sucking, at best she's neutral during her regardlessly forced chapters.

I'll remind you that dondon said her performance post-forced was "not terrible", not "good." So no, pre-promotion availability does not do much for her.

Deick suddenly died?

Oh, now we're giving her Dick, too. That's just wonderful. Listen to what you're saying here. Remember that Lot is in play and Lot is one of Dick's first support options for when he exists, and look at the speed compared to Rutger. Thany and Dick won't spend much time together with a move gap in C2, C3, and 3/4ths of C4, so when Rutger gets recruited he's not that far behind Thany for Dick's support, only it is MUCH easier for Dick to stay with Rutger than it is with Thany, and Rutger gives him much better support bonuses as well [full avo>>>>not, and he wants the full crit more than Thany] So now we're giving Dick the shaft for Thany's sake?

His iron to her possible steel, all her lances, more active 1-2 range in javies, WT control, avoid lead...

STEEL? What the hell is Thany doing with Steel ALREADY? This is not FEDS here, weapon ranks crawl in this game.

And why is Thany playing with lances in the isles? That's a nice way to get killed.

more active 1-2 range in javies, WT control, avoid lead...

Oh boy, Javelins! Thany can rape her AS to the point where she loses her avo AND As leads, plus how is she even benefiting from 1-2 range? 50% of the things that can do it are things that will rape her, which are handaxes and bows. Actually, on the isles there are a lot of axes and bows, so 1-2 range does absolutely nothing for Thany on the isles. WT control? Who cares? Swords, the only thing she controls, are both very uncommon and weak. Avoid lead? Again, who cares? Shin has a concrete durability win and terrain access to compensate.

Who said Shin outperforms her immediately after promotion?

10/4 Thany: 29 HP, 10 str, 22 AS, 9 def

10/1 Shin: 33 HP, 12 str, 18 AS, 10 def

This doesn't say anything? "baw BB forgot supports" who cares, all it did for Thany was make her tie instead of lose. If Shin closes the level gap by even one or if Thany isn't in range of Lot, then she loses.

-A very minor one

and? Thany's avo lead is hardly much better. You're making it sounds like she wins by a gazillion points.

-Yes, because bowmen are so numerous...

Um, yes, actually. This game does have a good deal of archers. Oh, speaking of, you know what C10 has? A ballistae that one shots Thany, so she needs to stay the hell away from everything until 5 turns in.

Wyrmslayers? Oh wait...

Right, Thany has to eat a counter at WTD with Silver Lance, plus she needs the rank and we have limited Wyrmslayers anyway, glad you remembered that.

Shin, in the meantime, needs no special weapons to kill these wyverns, and as a bonus he doesn't even take a silver lance to the face.

[Florete]

Oh, now we're giving her Dick, too.

Lol, Thany is getting some Dick.

Sorry, this just made me laugh.

[grandjackal]

I'll remind you that dondon said her performance post-forced was "not terrible", not "good." So no, pre-promotion availability does not do much for her.

Her not sucking does wonders for her support partners.

Oh, now we're giving her Dick, too.

I'm so sigging this.

That's just wonderful. Listen to what you're saying here. Remember that Lot is in play and Lot is one of Dick's first support options for when he exists, and look at the speed compared to Rutger. Thany and Dick won't spend much time together with a move gap in C2, C3, and 3/4ths of C4, so when Rutger gets recruited he's not that far behind Thany for Dick's support, only it is MUCH easier for Dick to stay with Rutger than it is with Thany, and Rutger gives him much better support bonuses as well [full avo>>>>not, and he wants the full crit more than Thany] So now we're giving Dick the shaft for Thany's sake?

Because Rutger doesn't have Fir, and that support is so important because as we know, Rutger sucks without Deick's early support...

Speaking of which, the difference between Rutger and Thany B? Twice as fast, Deick only misses out on 5 avoid. So yeah, cry me a river.

STEEL? What the hell is Thany doing with Steel ALREADY? This is not FEDS here, weapon ranks crawl in this game.

8x, 9, 10, 11, you telling me it couldn't have gone up a rank in that time?

And why is Thany playing with lances in the isles? That's a nice way to get killed.

I meant that for after the isles, when having something not suffereing WTD against the sudden lance onslaught would be a benefit.

m

Oh boy, Javelins! Thany can rape her AS to the point where she loses her avo AND As leads, plus how is she even benefiting from 1-2 range? 50% of the things that can do it are things that will rape her, which are handaxes and bows. Actually, on the isles there are a lot of axes and bows, so 1-2 range does absolutely nothing for Thany on the isles. WT control? Who cares? Swords, the only thing she controls, are both very uncommon and weak. Avoid lead? Again, who cares? Shin has a concrete durability win and terrain access to compensate.

Since chapter 11 basically means the isles are over (ya know, no terrain to use in 12 and 12x), I'm gonna assume you meant before Shin promotes, where the avoid lead and weapon control with her supports means she can actually be on the front lines. Ya know, something mono-bows unic Shin can't do.

10/4 Thany: 29 HP, 10 str, 22 AS, 9 def

10/1 Shin: 33 HP, 12 str, 18 AS, 10 def

This doesn't say anything? "baw BB forgot supports" who cares, all it did for Thany was make her tie instead of lose. If Shin closes the level gap by even one or if Thany isn't in range of Lot, then she loses.

Lances do more damage, Shin has to deal with WTD, so Thany is actually better offensively as is. I notice a huge AS lead in her favor, as it seems it would be 44 avoid before luck and supports factored in (at the time, it would be 14 Luck, plus possible double Cs, adding up to 64 avoid, already she reduces steels and handies to negatives. She'd have good dodge even under WTD).

4 HP and 1 Def, do cry me a river.

and? Thany's avo lead is hardly much better. You're making it sounds like she wins by a gazillion points.

The lead is 17+WT neutralization, it's pretty damn sizeable.

Um, yes, actually. This game does have a good deal of archers. Oh, speaking of, you know what C10 has? A ballistae that one shots Thany, so she needs to stay the hell away from everything until 5 turns in.

These bowmen tend to pack steel, and with her 69 avoid she reduces them to -4 hit. Skill tends to be 10, luck about 4 or so. She has them at around 20 displayed, I think she can afford to risk it.

Right, Thany has to eat a counter at WTD with Silver Lance, plus she needs the rank and we have limited Wyrmslayers anyway, glad you remembered that.

Shin, in the meantime, needs no special weapons to kill these wyverns, and as a bonus he doesn't even take a silver lance to the face.

Ok, I can see how he could be superior now for this part of the game, will concede chapter 21.

Plenty more chapters to go.

[Dat Nick]

Her not sucking does wonders for her support partners.

Yes, Lot will appreciate his 6 hit. When Thany is actually around him.

Because Rutger doesn't have Fir, and that support is so important because as we know, Rutger sucks without Deick's early support...

who gives a damn if Rutger has Fir too? It doesn't change the fact that he likes the Dick support, and that Rutger is a better partner for Dick than Thany.

Speaking of which, the difference between Rutger and Thany B? Twice as fast

It is not twice as fast. Rutger can be next to Dick far, far more often than Thany can.

Since chapter 11 basically means the isles are over (ya know, no terrain to use in 12 and 12x),

And look, there's plenty of it in C13, so...

Speaking of 12x! I'm so very glad you bought that up, because that chapter is nearly NOTHING but axes and some archers that can instablick Thany off the face of the earth. Plus it's FoW. So nobody really notices Shin's avo loss here because he's too busy pulling low/nonexistent hit rates. And in C12, there's a huge chokepoint that's playing in Shin's favor.

Lances do more damage

And what is using those Lances, again? A majority of it is Wyverns, and Wyverns will only get more, and more, and more common. I trust you can see where this is going.

The lead is 17+WT neutralization, it's pretty damn sizeable.

Shin doesn't take counters against them in the first place, so please tell me why her avo lead is supposed to matter when avoiding taking a steel lance to the face is much better than doing so. She really cannot afford to take two hits from Wyverns, and those are very common enemies that Shin does much better against.

hese bowmen tend to pack steel, and with her 69 avoid she reduces them to -4 hit. Skill tends to be 10, luck about 4 or so. She has them at around 20 displayed, I think she can afford to risk it.

Wrong. This is like, 4~ chance of getting critkilled. It's considered a big deal in every other FE game. It should be considered a big deal here.

And...20 displayed? How did you get 4 true out of that? That's 8.20 true, which is even worse.

Ok, I can see how he could be superior now for this part of the game, will concede chapter 21.

And for his one chapter in the isles, and for all the time wyverns exist, and C12 and C12x, as opposed to...Thany's chapters before he promotes and earlygame "utility". The desert chapter yes, but even that's debatable because there's a lot of wyverns there.

Oh on topic! You know how longbows are cool in FEDS because they instablick mages? Well they're doing it here too, so Shin is even better in chapters like C16 because of it.

Edited October 9, 2009 by Athena's Chest

[grandjackal]

Yes, Lot will appreciate his 6 hit. When Thany is actually around him.

Why are we having her fly solo? Think her more a cav with flight, she's not the solo-tank Miledy is (thus why she is never getting into high). you also seem to be ignoring the offense boost she gives him. Ya know, as he has bleh Str growth? The avoid he normally wouldn't have?

who gives a damn if Rutger has Fir too? It doesn't change the fact that he likes the Dick support, and that Rutger is a better partner for Dick than Thany.

Last I checked, Rutger couldn't fly Deick places far and away.

And no, I'd say she is the superior support. A B, the difference is 5 avoid, but she gives him 1 extra attack.

It is not twice as fast. Rutger can be next to Dick far, far more often than Thany can.

Thany can have him rescued and flown around, and they can build support points that way. At twice the rate.

And look, there's plenty of it in C13, so...

Yeah, if you sit back for no reason. All the terrain is at the starting position, this is the BRIDGE.

Speaking of 12x! I'm so very glad you bought that up, because that chapter is nearly NOTHING but axes and some archers that can instablick Thany off the face of the earth. Plus it's FoW. So nobody really notices Shin's avo loss here because he's too busy pulling low/nonexistent hit rates. And in C12, there's a huge chokepoint that's playing in Shin's favor. [/qote]

You have archers mixed up with myrmidons.

And what is using those Lances, again? A majority of it is Wyverns, and Wyverns will only get more, and more, and more common. I trust you can see where this is going.

That Shin can't fend them off by himself due to improper weapons and worse avoid?

Shin doesn't take counters against them in the first place, so please tell me why her avo lead is supposed to matter when avoiding taking a steel lance to the face is much better than doing so. She really cannot afford to take two hits from Wyverns, and those are very common enemies that Shin does much better against.

Wyverns have a hard as hell time hitting her, as she neutralizes their steel lance hit on avoid alone. At best, they'd be in the 10s. This matters more, because this means Thany can take more than one an thus damage more than one. Shin with bows can only damage one at a time, and otherwise has inferior offense with a weaker weapon and lower rank.

Wrong. This is like, 4~ chance of getting critkilled. It's considered a big deal in every other FE game. It should be considered a big deal here.

And...20 displayed? How did you get 4 true out of that? That's 8.20 true, which is even worse.

I meant enemy luck, but I suppose it should be accounted for if it's that big a deal. Ok, it's gotten closer.

And for his one chapter in the isles, and for all the time wyverns exist, and C12 and C12x, as opposed to...Thany's chapters before he promotes and earlygame "utility".

He's not spectacular on the isles, he's doing good on one wyvern at a time, 12 and 12x Thany is still good...

[Dat Nick]

Why are we having her fly solo?

Think Lot not being able to keep up with her has something to do with it?

Oh wait, did you just concede Thany won't use her full movement every turn? Awesome, now Shin has a mobility win.

Last I checked, Rutger couldn't fly Deick places far and away.

...Dick cares about this because?

And no, I'd say she is the superior support. A B, the difference is 5 avoid, but she gives him 1 extra attack.

When did Dick ever care about ATK?

Thany can have him rescued and flown around, and they can build support points that way. At twice the rate.

FLOWN AROUND? Are you aware of how ridiculous this sounds? Thany runs around with Dick and you have two units who aren't contributing anything except support points for each other.

You have archers mixed up with myrmidons.

....No, there are archers on this map. Not a load of them, but they DO exist. There's enough to make it a problem since it's a fog chapter.

That Shin can't fend them off by himself due to improper weapons and worse avoid?

What the hell makes you think Thany can? Can she even 2RKO Wyverns? She's certainly not ORKOing. These suckers actually have def, and she isn't exactly a reliable dodge tank because these guys have something resembling hit.

At best, they'd be in the 10s. This matters more, because this means Thany can take more than one an thus damage more than one.

This isn't eliminating the offense issue. Thany will not ever ORKO Wyverns, and the risk of taking heavy counter damage exists. No such risk exists for Shin.

He's not spectacular on the isles, he's doing good on one wyvern at a time, 12 and 12x Thany is still good...

So what? Shin's better on the isles and 12/12x. And Thany isn't good on several wyverns at a time because her offense vs them sucks so I don't know what you're attempting to prove.

[dondon151]

10 +2 with ~3 chapters of extra availability is much faster than 10 +1. Thany also gains support points if she's rescuing Dieck or Lot. I'll include an obligatory mention of a support triangle here as well.

I'm short on time here, but I just want to say that +1 supports are not viable in this game unless they start at like 40 points (see KleinxDieck or NiimexHugh, except Niime joins pretty late so...), despite what some may think.

[Dat Nick]

10 +2 with ~3 chapters of extra availability is much faster than 10 +1.

Yeah.

When Thany is actually next to Dick.

[dondon151]

ThanyxDieck can probably get 15 turns in chapter 8 alone because Thany has to rescue foot units like 80% of the time if you want to complete the chapter efficiently.

In addition, you're implying that Thany has to be next to or rescuing Dieck less than half of the time that Rutger is adjacent to Dieck. Not every chapter amounts to flying utility (those that don't involve what I call mount utility), and in those maps Thany will have more opportunities to build support points with infantry. And then, on those occasions where Thany doesn't have anything else to do, mount + flying makes it easier to just stand next to units and build support points.

Edited October 9, 2009 by dondon151

[Dat Nick]

Fine fine. I still think Reikken has brainwashed everybody here into Thany fanboy-ism but I'll shut up.

[grandjackal]

Right then.

Anyways, any thoughts on the Tate argument I posted a bit ago? Or do I need to copy/paste it?

Also, someone has brought it up, Tate>The other Ilians.

First off, she starts off basically Noah wit 14 speed. Noah starts with 9. Even with iron lance weighing her down, she has 2 more speed. Forget about his growing any time soon, she has 25% better growth. Hell, she has 10% better Str growth. He has 15% HP and 15% better Def, +weapon control. Same luck base and growth. Sooo, she has avoid leads, offense leads due to doubling, more mobility due to flight. He has weapon control and porbably a slight durability if any by the time they meet. The weapon triangle would matter, but she joins at the tail end of the isles, so the axes are starting to disappear. On top of this, she has 4 more skill, so that's 8 more hit. He needs 9 levels just to match.

Seems like having a durability lead might matter. However, that's when we bring in supports. Noah has other bleh lower mids, but he has Fir. Fir gets 2 attack she wouldn't otherwise get, but she DOES have Bartre and Shin. She is not dependent on him by any means. Tate? Well she has Thany, but they don't exactly help eachother much, and she has other supports. Who does this leave? Klein. Oh my yes. Full avoid, hit and Defense. Her offense is already better and only grows to be better, and her only problem is inferior durability growths. Klein helps patch that up at light speed, and gives her more hit and avoid. Avoid is just always nice, and hit allows her more use of things like javelins. It's 30+2, 15 turns for a C, 30 for a B, 40 for an A. Not exactly slow by any means. Whatever makes Klein hit more at least, he's one of those doesn't care who he supports types.

Then promotion. Both need a couple levels beforehand, but there is issues with this. Noah promoting comes with an opportunity cost, and he doesn't become any better by any means. Freaking Barth has dibs on it more than Noah does. Tate? We get enough whips for every flier save Zeiss wo not only sucks, but joins in a chapter where we can just buy him one anyways. It only further cements her offense lead, and gives her another weapon. early promo does not fix Noah's problem of doubling, and probably only serves to screw him even worse in the end. Axes are nice, but bad offense isn't. Tate on the other hand gets swords for WT neutrality, and she can build it up to get the important swords of Killers, Armorslayers and Wyrmslayers for more versatility.

Uhhh...basically that, rather simple really.

Edited October 9, 2009 by France