Getting a Tier List on this bad boy

[CATS]

Nah, Eirika and Colm can use it. But Killing Edge is only slightly lower at crit.

As the other guy said, Colm can only use it if he goes Assassin. I remember Eirika being able to use it, but she has Sieglinde (rofl, 21 Mt) + Rapier, so it's not helping her much; she already has the tools to ORKO almost anything.

EDIT: Not disagreeing to Josh > Garcia but... I'm getting 56 base Crit for Josh w/the Killing Edge (I'm not even buying into Shamshir). How is that a 90% chance of a Critkill?

Those enemy samples didn't give Lck, so I just gave the chances of critting on a no-luck enemy. Enemy Lck doesn't hurt his chances much anyways. Let's say the enemy has 5 Lck. L25 Joshua:

(21.9 / 2 [skl]) + 30 (KE) + 15 (SM bonus) + 5 (S Swords) + 10 (random supports, B Natasha/C Gerik, or just B Gerik by itself) - 5 (enemy Lck) = 65.95% crit

88-89% odds to score atleast one crit on a double.

How does Joshua win against the Wyverns? Garcia has a 100% chance to kill some of them in one rouond, whatever his crit is to kill the others in one round, and none of them can survive two rounds. Joshua has <50% chance of killing them with a lancereaver. Garcia's doing better than them. Also, we can't just say Joshua's better because he might win later on in the game. Garcia has a pretty awesome early game, and probably beats him for ~ half the time they're around.

W/ the Silver Blade, Joshua is borderline for 2HKO'ing, while Garcia is borderline on doubling, but if Joshua's not 2HKO'ing he can fall back to the KE/Shamshir's ~90% crits, whereas if Garcia doesn't double, he only gets one shot with his 30 something critrate.

If you want to bring defense into the picture, sure, Lancereaver Joshua doesn't 2HKO, but his odds to kill are still easily over 50%. ~41% crit, so ~65% odds to critkill.

I never said Joshua was better against the Wyverns. Rather, I just pointed out the advantages and disadvantages of both sides. It doesn't look like there's a clear winner there.

Also, Speedwing!Garcia does more than improve his offense. It helps his durability. Their are a few enemies that could have doubled him before that don't.

Yeah, with a Speedwing, Garcia can manage to avoid getting doubled by the enemies. Garcia's pretty awesome.

I'm not saying Garcia>Joshua, but we can't just compare them for one chapter where Garcia is near his worst and Joshua his best.

If you think Garcia fares better early on, feel free to post a comparison.

Edited September 15, 2009 by CATS

[Colonel M]

Nah, Eirika and Colm can use it. But Killing Edge is only slightly lower at crit.

As the other guy said, Colm can only use it if he goes Assassin. I remember Eirika being able to use it, but she has Sieglinde (rofl, 21 Mt) + Rapier, so it's not helping her much; she already has the tools to ORKO almost anything.

Who cares? The weapon is likely broken by now (assuming Marisa's).

EDIT: Not disagreeing to Josh > Garcia but... I'm getting 56 base Crit for Josh w/the Killing Edge (I'm not even buying into Shamshir). How is that a 90% chance of a Critkill?

Those enemy samples didn't give Lck, so I just gave the chances of critting on a no-luck enemy. Enemy Lck doesn't hurt his chances much anyways. Let's say the enemy has 5 Lck. L25 Joshua:

(21.9 / 2 [skl]) + 30 (KE) + 15 (SM bonus) + 5 (S Swords) + 10 (random supports, B Natasha/C Gerik, or just B Gerik by itself) - 5 (enemy Lck) = 65.95% crit

88-89% odds to score atleast one crit on a double.

Even so, it's not guaranteed. With two supporters, he definitely needs to be near them and the possibility of him needing to attack first or other sorts of business doesn't guarantee the extra Crit.

If you want to bring defense into the picture, sure, Lancereaver Joshua doesn't 2HKO, but his odds to kill are still easily over 50%. ~41% crit, so ~65% odds to critkill.

Compared to Garcia's 100% with that Speedwing.

Yeah, with a Speedwing, Garcia can manage to avoid getting doubled by the enemies. Garcia's pretty awesome.

Valkyries and the Swordmaster are the only concerns. The latter can still be warded off with the Swordreaver, the former has Pure Water | Barrier staff making it's offense weaker.

Edited September 15, 2009 by Colonel M

[Rewjeo]

How does Joshua win against the Wyverns? Garcia has a 100% chance to kill some of them in one rouond, whatever his crit is to kill the others in one round, and none of them can survive two rounds. Joshua has <50% chance of killing them with a lancereaver. Garcia's doing better than them. Also, we can't just say Joshua's better because he might win later on in the game. Garcia has a pretty awesome early game, and probably beats him for ~ half the time they're around.

W/ the Silver Blade, Joshua is borderline for 2HKO'ing, while Garcia is borderline on doubling, but if Joshua's not 2HKO'ing he can fall back to the KE/Shamshir's ~90% crits, whereas if Garcia doesn't double, he only gets one shot with his 30 something critrate.

If you want to bring defense into the picture, sure, Lancereaver Joshua doesn't 2HKO, but his odds to kill are still easily over 50%. ~41% crit, so ~65% odds to critkill.

I never said Joshua was better against the Wyverns. Rather, I just pointed out the advantages and disadvantages of both sides. It doesn't look like there's a clear winner there.

Also, Speedwing!Garcia does more than improve his offense. It helps his durability. Their are a few enemies that could have doubled him before that don't.

Yeah, with a Speedwing, Garcia can manage to avoid getting doubled by the enemies. Garcia's pretty awesome.

I'm not saying Garcia>Joshua, but we can't just compare them for one chapter where Garcia is near his worst and Joshua his best.

If you think Garcia fares better early on, feel free to post a comparison.

Hm? If he has 56 crit with KE, then he only has 26 crit with the lancereaver. That's only ~45% chance to crit at all.

And you seem to have missed the point of him not getting doubled. Do you realize how big of a jump that is in terms of durability?

And if you want a comparison, well I don't have much time, but for chapter 6, I'll say level 7 Garcia (C Ross) and level 6 Joshua. Let's see how they compare.

Garcia Hand/Iron

HP 30

DEF 6

RES 1-2

AVO 25

CEV 4

ATK 18/19

HIT 83/98

CRIT 9

AS 8

Joshua Iron/KE

HP 25

DEF 5

RES 2

AVO 35-37

CEV 7

ATK 13/17

HIT 116-118/101-103

CRIT 7/37

AS 14-15

Offensively? Joshua wins against weak enemies that Garcia doesn't double and Josh does, but Garcia is awesome against knights and soldiers. He can ORKO or do significant damage to them. Joshua needs the armorslayer to do well against knights, and that cuts into his avoid, meaning he could take a counter that he definitely doesn't want to take. Garcia? It's in kill zone for anyone, and I'd say that using two units to kill it with neither taking damage>Joshua killing it but taking a lot of damage. Garcia ORKOs soldiers without taking damage. Oh, and 2-range>30 crit for 20 attacks.

Defensively?

It's 5 HP and 1 DEF vs. 10 avo (cut down with a heavier weapon) and maybe one resistance. Oh, and Garcia has 2 range and Joshua has 3 CEV. 2-range means he's taking fewer counters, and isn't getting attacked by archers and mages on Enemy Phase. that 3 CEV? Well, unless enemies are pulling off 10 SKL at this point, it doesn't make a difference except against killer weapons, and there, 3 CEV isn't much. ATK needed to 2-4 HKO them?

21 ATK 2HKOs Garcia

16 ATK 3HKOs Garcia

14 ATK 4HKOs Garcia

18 ATK 2HKOs Joshua

14 ATK 3HKOs Joshua

13 ATK 4HKOs Joshua

I'll say that they're ~= in terms of number of counters they can take, but Garcia still wins physical durability since he's taking fewer counters. Magical durability? Garcia wins because he isn't getting attacked by them when I don't want him to be. and i'm totally not saying that because i'm too lazy to come up with anything else

After looking at this, I'd say that I'm not really sure who's better.

Edited September 16, 2009 by Slize

[CATS]

Hm? If he has 56 crit with KE, then he only has 26 crit with the lancereaver. That's only ~45% chance to crit at all.

He doesn't have 56 crit. Go back and read my posts again.

And you seem to have missed the point of him not getting doubled. Do you realize how big of a jump that is in terms of durability?

Yeah, he goes from "wtf why is a promoted PC getting doubled" to not getting doubled, i.e., being similar to everyone else. It's not like he's suddenly impressive or something because he's not getting doubled anymore.

And if you want a comparison, well I don't have much time, but for chapter 6, I'll say level 7 Garcia (C Ross) and level 6 Joshua. Let's see how they compare.

C Ross? Why is that support still being assumed?

Offensively? Joshua wins against weak enemies that Garcia doesn't double and Josh does, but Garcia is awesome against knights and soldiers. He can ORKO or do significant damage to them. Joshua needs the armorslayer to do well against knights, and that cuts into his avoid, meaning he could take a counter that he definitely doesn't want to take. Garcia? It's in kill zone for anyone, and I'd say that using two units to kill it with neither taking damage>Joshua killing it but taking a lot of damage. Garcia ORKOs soldiers without taking damage. Oh, and 2-range>30 crit for 20 attacks.

No, in terms of pure offense, Joshua wins. Garcia can't reliably 2HKO the Knights even with the Steel Axe. Joshua is able to easily one-round with the Armorslayer. Furthermore, Joshua can double every enemy on the map, even the Mercs, while Garcia misses the double even against average fare like the Archer and the Fighters. Fail.

Hyping Garcia's performance against loldiers? The majority of your units can one-round those guys from range. What Joshua does, on the other hand, cannot be so easily duplicated. The Killing Edge gives him about 60% odds to ORKO Cavaliers. The only other non-Seth unit who can do this is Eirika. Even Franz has little hope of one-rounding those things.

It's 5 HP and 1 DEF vs. 10 avo (cut down with a heavier weapon) and maybe one resistance. Oh, and Garcia has 2 range and Joshua has 3 CEV. 2-range means he's taking fewer counters, and isn't getting attacked by archers and mages on Enemy Phase. that 3 CEV? Well, unless enemies are pulling off 10 SKL at this point, it doesn't make a difference except against killer weapons, and there, 3 CEV isn't much. ATK needed to 2-4 HKO them?

At the given levels, Joshua has a 16.9 Avo lead. Perfectly arguable against 5 Hp and 1 Def.

Attacking from range cuts Garcia's hit down to 78-79. He can hit Soldiers and Knights just fine, but anything else is gonna be a problem. 74-75 displayed hit on an Iron Lance Cavalier, 65-66 on an Iron Axe Fighter, 47-48 on an Iron Sword Cavalier, and a dismal 39-40 against an Iron Sword Merc.

2 range discouraging ranged enemies doesn't help much at this point, since you'll still have more 1 range than 2 range weapons equipped across the whole of your group. Garcia equipping the Hand Axe just means that mage will hit Iron Lance Franz or Eirika instead. And he needs to stay the hell away from the one mage anyways, because it has Thunder and 9 crit, and will OHKO Garcia if that crit goes off.

3 CEV? wtf? No, go look again. Garcia is the one with 3 base Lck. Joshua's base is 7. And speaking of that, Mercs have 5-6 crit and have the potential to double Garcia.

Edited September 19, 2009 by CATS

[Rewjeo]

Uh, yeah, that's why Joshua has 3 CEV on Garcia... Oh, and I for Josh to have 71 Crit, he'd need 52 SKL. Which he doesn't. If has 22 SKL, then he has 56 Crit.

You seem to miss my points completely. Maybe I'm not being clear? GARCIA NOT BEING DOUBLED IS >>>>>>>>>> GARCIA THAT IS DOUBLED. It doesn't matter if this doesn't make his durability spectacular, it still means that his durability is actually fare. Joshua doesn't want to attack the knights because THEY DO A LOT OF DAMAGE TO HIM. If Garcia weakens, then someone ISN'T taking a counter. Oh, and 35-25 = 10, not 16.

I'm not saying GARCIA IS PWN BECAUSE HE CAN KILL SOLDIERS! I'm saying that he has offensive wins, namely knights and soldiers.

And WTF at "2-range doesn't help Garcia." Then you say that this enemy can kill him, except it won't attack him IF HIS HANDAXE IS EQUIPPED.

[CATS]

Uh, yeah, that's why Joshua has 3 CEV on Garcia... Oh, and I for Josh to have 71 Crit, he'd need 52 SKL. Which he doesn't. If has 22 SKL, then he has 56 Crit.

Oh, misunderstanding there.

As for the crit, I see that you didn't bother to go back and read my posts again (if you're even bothering to read them in the first place). Quoting from a few posts above this one:

(21.9 / 2 [skl]) + 30 (KE) + 15 (SM bonus) + 5 (S Swords) + 10 (random supports, B Natasha/C Gerik, or just B Gerik by itself) - 5 (enemy Lck) = 65.95% crit

I'm not saying GARCIA IS PWN BECAUSE HE CAN KILL SOLDIERS! I'm saying that he has offensive wins, namely knights and soldiers.

Knights? Quoting again:

No, in terms of pure offense, Joshua wins. Garcia can't reliably 2HKO the Knights even with the Steel Axe. Joshua is able to easily one-round with the Armorslayer.

loldiers? That's not an offense win. Both easily and reliably one-round loldiers. Garcia has a defensive win there thanks to WT and range, but their offense is the same.

Meanwhile, Joshua wins offense against almost every other enemy on the map.

Joshua doesn't want to attack the knights because THEY DO A LOT OF DAMAGE TO HIM. If Garcia weakens, then someone ISN'T taking a counter.

Sure, if you just have nothing better to be doing with those units, which isn't the case. Rather than using two units' turns to take out a Knight, I can send Joshua to actually one-round it, and the second unit can go do something else instead. Yeah, Joshua takes damage, but he's also one-rounding. His defense is worse than Garcia's here, but his offense is better.

Oh, and 35-25 = 10, not 16.

L7 Garcia has 7.6 Spd and 4.2 Lck. (7.6 * 2) + 4.2 = 19.4

L6 Joshua has 14.5 Spd and 7.3 Lck. (14.5 * 2) + 7.3 = 36.3

36.3 - 19.4 = 16.9

You failed to explain why Garcia has a Ross support in Ch 6.

And WTF at "2-range doesn't help Garcia." Then you say that this enemy can kill him, except it won't attack him IF HIS HANDAXE IS EQUIPPED.

IIRC, AI prioritizes killing its target over all else, and it includes crit chance when calculating that. If the enemy has a chance to critkill Garcia, it will attack him regardless of whether or not it takes a counter. As for Hand Axe:

Attacking from range cuts Garcia's hit down to 78-79. He can hit Soldiers and Knights just fine, but anything else is gonna be a problem. 74-75 displayed hit on an Iron Lance Cavalier, 65-66 on an Iron Axe Fighter, 47-48 on an Iron Sword Cavalier, and a dismal 39-40 against an Iron Sword Merc.

2 range discouraging ranged enemies doesn't help much at this point, since you'll still have more 1 range than 2 range weapons equipped across the whole of your group. Garcia equipping the Hand Axe just means that mage will hit Iron Lance Franz or Eirika instead.

The Hand Axe helps his defense against loldiers/Knights without any negative side effects, and it's still probably a winning trade against Lance Cavs even though Garcia can miss against those. Against other enemies, the penalties to his Hit are a pretty significant tradeoff.

[Rewjeo]

Forgot 'bout S bonus and supports.

Garcia preventing another unit from getting hurt is actually very good. While Joshua is now weighed down by the Armor Slayer and is missing a bunch of HP, Garcia could have had Joshua and another unit at full HP for enemy phase. I guess that Garcia doesn't really have any offensive wins, but he has quite a few defensive leads.

Anyways, after looking more in depth, I have to agree that Joshua>Garcia.

[CATS]

Knoll seems to be in bottom on one route but low on the other. Low both routes IMO.

Syrene > Eph Marisa

Syrene can be useful in Ch 18 simply for her mobility, and large numbers of deployment slots make her use viable for 19 and 20.

Marisa does nothing useful. She's just a slightly better version of the trainees, in the sense that she doesn't fail quite as hard upon joining, but she's still not worth training at all. A Ewan or Amelia > Marisa argument might even be remotely viable, since Marisa has no 2 range at all. Amelia is atleast better at attacking without getting in the way.

Edited September 21, 2009 by CATS

[Florete]

Marisa does nothing useful. She's just a slightly better version of the trainees, in the sense that she doesn't fail quite as hard upon joining, but she's still not worth training at all.

How is that an argument?

[CATS]

How is it not? Marisa's incapable of doing anything useful, while the same is not true of Syrene.

[Florete]

How is it not? Marisa's incapable of doing anything useful, while the same is not true of Syrene.

I could pretty much put Syrene in that sentence I quoted and it would make just as much sense, especially this part:

but she's still not worth training at all.

That's what gets a unit low on the list, not an advantage one has on another in itself. In other words, she doesn't have to be worth training to be > Syrene.

[CATS]

No, not at all. Marisa needing to be trained is quite the disadvantage when she's not worth training in the first place. Syrene is able to contribute something without requiring any Exp, promo item or unit slots in earlier chapters.

[grandjackal]

Marissa needs 6 levels to reach Syrene's HP base, 4 levels HP base, 6 to reach Luck, needs to be 20/13 to reach defense, 20/18 for Resistance (kinda important against the myriad of monsters to come), needs to promote to reach her strength. Then consider it took no effort nor promotion item to get Syrene where she is, has flight, counter to range, and a stronger weapon type.

And I got ninja'd. Grand.

Edited September 21, 2009 by Kuja

[Florete]

No, not at all. Marisa needing to be trained is quite the disadvantage when she's not worth training in the first place. Syrene is able to contribute something without requiring any Exp, promo item or unit slots in earlier chapters.

Way to miss the point. I see you're still locked in your crazy negative utility world.

I don't even care if Syrene > Marisa, but your logic is off. You can't say "not worth training" and use it as a point, you need to determine the difficulty and costs of training Marisa and what it gets us and show how it's worse in the end than using Syrene. Basically, saying she's "not worth training" is just an unsupported point like any other, especially since I don't recall Syrene being of much value herself.

[CATS]

The fact that she's in bottom tier speaks for the difficulty of training her.

The costs are whatever kills you give her, a promo item, and the gap in performance between her and whatever unit could've been used in her spot during those chapters.

Edited September 21, 2009 by CATS

[Florete]

The fact that she's in bottom tier speaks for the difficulty of training her.

The costs are whatever kills you give her and a promo item.

This says nothing about her vs. Syrene. If a promoted Marisa can actually be on par with the rest of your units while Syrene never can, that's an advantage for her. I haven't looked into Syrene's performance, but it can't be very good considering how low she is.

[CATS]

The performance of a promoted Marisa has to be measured along with the costs required for Marisa to reach that state, and those costs very easily outweigh whatever stat advantages she would have over Syrene.

Edited September 21, 2009 by CATS

[Progenitus]

I'd say Eirika route Marisa can be low at worst, because she joins at chapter 10. She joins in ch 12 on Eph route, so that's tougher.

Well, let's see... if Marisa displaces the worst unit on a team, it'll probably be an upper mid tier. So let's just take Joshua. I'd argue that if Marisa's leads on Syrene when Syrene joins is greater than the leads Joshua has on Marisa when Marisa joins, then Marisa would win.

5/0 Marisa

23 HP, 7 str, 12 skl, 13 spd, 9 lck, 4 def, 3 res, 5 move, 5 con

12/0 Joshua

29.6 HP, 10.45 str, 16.85 skl, 17.85 def, 9.1 lck, 6.4 def, 3.4 res, 5 move, 8 con

JOshua's leads are 9.6 HP, 3.45 str, 3.85 skl, 4.85 spd, -0.1 lck, 2.4 def, 0.4 res, 3 con

Now...

20/1 Marisa

38.25 HP, 13.5 str, 21 skl, 20 spd, 16.5 lck, 8.25 def, 7.75 res, 6 move, 7 con

20/1 Syrene

27 HP, 12 str, 13 skl, 15 spd, 12 lck, 10 def, 12 res, 8 move, 7 con

Marisa's leads are 11.25 HP, 1.5 str, 8 skl, 5 spd, 4.5 lck, -1.75 def, -4.25 res, -2 move. No flying, but has 15 crit (well, more like ~19, since she wins skl by 8).

Does Marisa lose to Joshua, an upper mid tier, by a larger margin than Syrene loses to Marisa when the latter joins?

My first impression is no.

You also have to consider that the gap between Marisa and Joshua shrinks, since she gains levels faster and her growths are probably better too (technically, Joshua has 5 more HP/str/def. However, he's already very close to capping spd, which means his avo will stagnate. Marisa's will continue to grow). The gap between Marisa and Syrene will shrink, but at a much slower pace than the Marisa-JOshua gap, because they're gaining levels at the same rate and Syrene's growths are only marginally better (-5 HP, +10 str, +5 def. -20 lck but +25 res though, for what that's worth).

Well, this is for Eir route. On eph route, she joins 2 chapters later, so that'd be like... -4 levels?

Edited September 21, 2009 by pen15

[Mekkah]

Joshua's also going to promote earlier or at the same time at best, but then you can't have 20/1 Marisa, so iono...

No, not at all. Marisa needing to be trained is quite the disadvantage when she's not worth training in the first place.

This is essentially more about describing a maximum efficiency playthrough than describing an efficient playthrough. Of course she's not "worth training".

[Colonel M]

14/1 Cormag - 37.25 HP | 17.75 Str | 13 Skl | 15.25 Spd | 5.75 Luck | 13.25 Def | 3.75 Res

(Wyvern Knight)

--/10 Duessel - 42.7 HP | 18.1 Str | 12.8 Skl | 12.6 Spd | 8.4 Luck | 17.9 Def | 9.6 Res

Eirika Duessel vs. Cormag btw.

Though I admit that Duessel is pulling some durability on Cormag (5 HP | 4 Def | 6 Res vs ~1 Avoid), I'd say Cormag having doubling potential is helping him a lot. Not to mention that being a flying unit has its upsides in certain Chapters (C15, C17, C18, C20, Endgame).

[-Cynthia-]

I agree with Eir Cormag>Duessel.

[CATS]

Joshua's also going to promote earlier or at the same time at best, but then you can't have 20/1 Marisa, so iono...

No, not at all. Marisa needing to be trained is quite the disadvantage when she's not worth training in the first place.

This is essentially more about describing a maximum efficiency playthrough than describing an efficient playthrough. Of course she's not "worth training".

Well, the tier lists need to better define how a unit is used when they are being tiered. In the FE6 topic general consensus seemed to be that Marcus should only be used so far as he is able to contribute to a completely efficient run, whereas here people consistently claim the opposite, suggesting that to be "used," characters must be fully trained and constantly deployed regardless of whether or not this contributes anything to an efficient runthrough.

So, which one is it?

Edited September 21, 2009 by CATS

[Rewjeo]

If you're dropping Joshua for Marisa, then you can't only compare how much worse she is than him when she joins, you have to compare for the whole game. So you now have to compare how much worse Marisa is than Joshua for the whole game, and compare the same the thing for Syrene. Statistical leads aren't everything, either. She has javelins, flying utility, and a free silver lance she can use to help her offense. I agree with Syrene>Eph. Marisa.

[Florete]

Well, the tier lists need to better define how a unit is used when they are being tiered. In the FE6 topic general consensus seemed to be that Marcus should only be used so far as he is able to contribute to a completely efficient run, whereas here people consistently claim the opposite, suggesting that to be "used," characters must be fully trained and constantly deployed regardless of whether or not this contributes anything to an efficient runthrough.

So, which one is it?

No, you're getting the wrong idea. These are opposite cases, where one goes from good to bad and the other goes from bad to good/mediocre/whatever. In the case of Marcus, you can use him as long as he's good and he's already acquired enough positive utility to be better than a whole slew of characters. In the case of guys that start weak like Marisa, they don't have a good period, so you can't assume they're dropped when their bad period comes because then they wouldn't be used, and thus tiered, at all. You've got to use them to tier them, and that means they're forced to go through suck, and that puts them lower on the list, whereas with Marcus, in order to use him, we don't have to see any negative from him at all yet we can still tier him accurately.

I hope this isn't just your idea of efficiency going out of whack again.

[dondon151]

Or, you know, this problem can be circumvented when a unit's bad period is still positive!