Getting a Tier List on this bad boy

[CATS]

No, you're getting the wrong idea. These are opposite cases, where one goes from good to bad and the other goes from bad to good/mediocre/whatever. In the case of Marcus, you can use him as long as he's good and he's already acquired enough positive utility to be better than a whole slew of characters.

The same is true of Syrene, simply to a much smaller extent. She is able to contribute something without ever going through a "period of suck" where she contributes nothing. Marisa's only choices are to be used through that "period of suck" or not get used at all.

I hope this isn't just your idea of efficiency going out of whack again.

My idea of efficiency? What's yours?

Edited September 22, 2009 by CATS

[Progenitus]

If you're dropping Joshua for Marisa, then you can't only compare how much worse she is than him when she joins, you have to compare for the whole game. So you now have to compare how much worse Marisa is than Joshua for the whole game, and compare the same the thing for Syrene.

What? That doesn't make any sense at all. If Marisa was taking Joshua's slot, then I'd assume that Syrene would be taking Joshua's slot as well, which case after Syrene joins we can go straight to a Marisa vs Syrene comparison. Why would we need to do Marisa vs Joshua and Syrene vs Joshua for the entire game?

Statistical leads aren't everything, either. She has javelins, flying utility, and a free silver lance she can use to help her offense. I agree with Syrene>Eph. Marisa.

Javelins kill her AS (not like you really want to lose 4 AS when you only have 15), and they have terrible mt for a unit with terrible offense already. When exactly would she pull one out?

Flying utility? I don't see that being too useful for Syrene. Flying means you're generally off on solo missions, but Syrene is too weak to take on anything by herself. And if you were sending other fliers to help her out, well then, they don't even need Syrene to do the job anyway.

Free silver lance? So what? Why do we care she comes with it? We don't need to actually use her to get that silver lance. We can recruit her, then have her hide in a corner or kill her off, and we get the silver lance either way.

Also, I don't agree with only using Syrene for ch 17. What's stopping me from just using Marisa in her joining chapter (or maybe deploy her if we have enough unit slots), at which point we can have Marisa make a couple of attacks or be part of a clean up crew or something? Hell, I can just use Marisa as a expendable meat shield. So the discussion would turn to Marisa in ch 10 vs Syrene in ch 17. That's one hell of a boring debate.

Edited September 22, 2009 by pen15

[Mekkah]

Joshua's also going to promote earlier or at the same time at best, but then you can't have 20/1 Marisa, so iono...

No, not at all. Marisa needing to be trained is quite the disadvantage when she's not worth training in the first place.

This is essentially more about describing a maximum efficiency playthrough than describing an efficient playthrough. Of course she's not "worth training".

Well, the tier lists need to better define how a unit is used when they are being tiered. In the FE6 topic general consensus seemed to be that Marcus should only be used so far as he is able to contribute to a completely efficient run, whereas here people consistently claim the opposite, suggesting that to be "used," characters must be fully trained and constantly deployed regardless of whether or not this contributes anything to an efficient runthrough.

So, which one is it?

I put this on my FE5 tier list, I thought I had it here but I didn't. So:

WRT +/- utility: performance over the whole game is weighed, as otherwise we are reflecting a 100% efficiency playthrough, and not the actual value of a unit throughout the game. However, a time where you are bad weighs less against a unit if your good part is before your bad part.

Also, I've put Knoll to top of low in both, and Marisa in the same Bottom spot as well in both.

Edited September 22, 2009 by Mekkah

[Rewjeo]

If you're dropping Joshua for Marisa, then you can't only compare how much worse she is than him when she joins, you have to compare for the whole game. So you now have to compare how much worse Marisa is than Joshua for the whole game, and compare the same the thing for Syrene.

What? That doesn't make any sense at all. If Marisa was taking Joshua's slot, then I'd assume that Syrene would be taking Joshua's slot as well, which case after Syrene joins we can go straight to a Marisa vs Syrene comparison. Why would we need to do Marisa vs Joshua and Syrene vs Joshua for the entire game?

Statistical leads aren't everything, either. She has javelins, flying utility, and a free silver lance she can use to help her offense. I agree with Syrene>Eph. Marisa.

Javelins kill her AS (not like you really want to lose 4 AS when you only have 15), and they have terrible mt for a unit with terrible offense already. When exactly would she pull one out?

Flying utility? I don't see that being too useful for Syrene. Flying means you're generally off on solo missions, but Syrene is too weak to take on anything by herself. And if you were sending other fliers to help her out, well then, they don't even need Syrene to do the job anyway.

Free silver lance? So what? Why do we care she comes with it? We don't need to actually use her to get that silver lance. We can recruit her, then have her hide in a corner or kill her off, and we get the silver lance either way.

Also, I don't agree with only using Syrene for ch 17. What's stopping me from just using Marisa in her joining chapter (or maybe deploy her if we have enough unit slots), at which point we can have Marisa make a couple of attacks or be part of a clean up crew or something? Hell, I can just use Marisa as a expendable meat shield. So the discussion would turn to Marisa in ch 10 vs Syrene in ch 17. That's one hell of a boring debate.

I'm not saying that would be the only comparison, but we have to compare how much they're making the team worse overall, not just for one chapter, as well as their other traits.

She could pull out a short spear or something, then.

She can fly over terrain. She could ferry Eirika/Ephraim over, and then triangle attack with Vidofnir to kill Morva. Is it actually possible for her to OHKO Morva? I don't expect so, but at least she could make Tana/Vanessa do it. And before you say "we're fielding units we don't want to just to make Syrene better? Whut?" If we're doing the chapter that way, all we need is the lord and the three pegs. Oh, and I guess that if we're doing Eirika route, there's a decent chance she could use the triangle attack, too.

We also don't need to buy the silver lance for her. The point is, it gives her 20 attacks with it.

[-Cynthia-]

Also, I've put Knoll to top of low in both, and Marisa in the same Bottom spot as well in both.

I think almost all the arguments were against Eph route Marisa(who's significantly worse), I'm not sure anyone was arguing that Syrene>Eir route Marisa. Training Marisa on Eir route is quite a bit easier, she probably shouldn't be in Bottom there.

Edited September 22, 2009 by -Cynthia-

[CATS]

Well, if you acknowledge that units have bad periods and hold those bad periods against them, Marisa's "bad period" should last quite a bit longer than Syrene's. Syrene isn't taking up a slot at all in Ch 17 and isn't taking up a significant unit slot in 19 or 20 (with 17/18 slots in those chaps, you have room to field plenty more than your core team), and I think her performance in Ch 18 can be justified as atleast average and not outright bad, since that chapter strongly emphasizes mobility and getting to the enemies quickly over pure offense/defense combat stats (any old chump one-rounds the Eggs and they don't fight back).

So Syrene has a total of one chapter during her existance where she'd be considered "bad" or "negative," and that would be the final.

Marisa, on the other hand, is definitely going to take more than one chapter to catch up to the rest of your units and stop sucking.

Syrene's flying shouldn't be disregarded, either. Someone has to nab Ch 19's six chests and Syrene's game-highest mobility allows her to get them and get back faster than anyone else (save other fliers, ofcourse, but since other fliers don't suck at fighting, you'd probably prefer to let them stay near the fighting and send Syrene to the chests). Ferrying units is also quite useful in Ch 20 iirc.

Also, yeah, only arguing against Eph Route Marisa. If you insist on disregarding a completely efficient run and constantly deploying units, then Eir Marisa is significantly better, as she has less of a hole to climb out of (only starts 5 levels below Gerik, let's remember) and more time to do it.

Edited September 22, 2009 by CATS

[Mekkah]

(only starts 5 levels below Gerik, let's remember)

If you only compared her to Gerik, she actually looks better in Ephraim than in Eirika (joins slightly before rather than slightly after, both at the same levels) but there's no logic in going "just 5 levels behind Gerik" anyway. You know as well as I do that the only thing level does is determining your EXP gain and whether you can promote or not. It's Marisa's stats and weapon that suck, not her level.

[grandjackal]

I think he was referring to early promotion. Not that I find Rennac with worse durability any more appealing anyways.

[CATS]

(only starts 5 levels below Gerik, let's remember)

If you only compared her to Gerik, she actually looks better in Ephraim than in Eirika (joins slightly before rather than slightly after, both at the same levels) but there's no logic in going "just 5 levels behind Gerik" anyway. You know as well as I do that the only thing level does is determining your EXP gain and whether you can promote or not. It's Marisa's stats and weapon that suck, not her level.

Oh, I definitely agree that she's still bad. I was simply pointing out that she's better than on Eph Route.

[CATS]

I notice Eph Gerik over Kyle, however, I believe it was shown earlier in the topic that Kyle > Eph Gerik (iirc, similar performance after Gerik joins, but Kyle's been there to help out for like 6 chapters before Gerik joined).

[Progenitus]

I thought Eph Gerik still had better stats?

[Dat Nick]

It was. Odd since CATS was the one who posted it [He just took Smash's thing about Gerik>Forde to illustrate it was a similar story, just Kyle was getting beaten less]

[CATS]

And my post was followed by this one from Cynthia:

It is indeed a 3 chapter gap, Gerik is first available at the beginning of Fluorspar's Oath, which is Ch13.

Sure 10/1 Gerik beats Kyle, but 13/1 Kyle matches up much better against Gerik (we aren't terribly short on Knight's Crests at this time), and if we choose not to promote Kyle instantly he'll gain levels faster and thus have a good chance of beating Gerik once he promotes.

And in Eph Gerik vs. Kyle, Kyle's availability lead is much more evident than Eir route. He has 6 chapters before Gerik joins, Gerik/Kyle only have 8 chapters together. I would say they're pretty comparable when they're together, but Kyle's built up pretty significant positive utility by then.

[Dat Nick]

Ugh Im an idiot, I forgot Eph Gerik was the one recruited later.

Cavs>EphGerik then?

[CATS]

Indeed.

[Colonel M]

Also, should that gap between Kyle and Forde be closed down? I don't see Kyle being THAT much better than Forde tbh.

EDIT: Eirika's route btw.

Edited October 8, 2009 by Colonel M

[CATS]

I don't particularly care either way. I just know they should be in the same tier.

[Progenitus]

Nah, I think the gap is fine.

Early on, Kyle has small leads in everything save spd (only 1 point, slightly counteracted by 1 con).

For later comparisons, Kyle has a 5 growth advantage in HP/def, 10 in str, and has a 1 level gap to close. Forde only has a 5 advantage in spd, but because of Kyle eventually closing that level gap, the spd lead will still remain at roughly 1 point even after promotion. Forde doesn't even get a 2 point spd advantage until about 20/10. Meanwhile, at 20/1, kyle will already have ~4 str, ~2 def, ~3 HP (Forde has roughly 5 avo, though ~44 avo isn't really anything to write home about). And still has a 1 con lead.

Supports change things up a bit. Ignoring their support with each other, Forde gets full att from all viable supports, so he closes the att gap (though not completely), and some crit I guess too. However, Kyle gets full def or avo from all viable supports (Lute gives both) while Forde gets half bonuses to def or avo at best. This gives him a substantial durability lead.

[Mekkah]

I proposed an order of High tier, and made it the way it is according to suggestions. I think it looks fine right now.

[Dat Nick]

I don't think we should get bent out of shape over gaps between characters unless they're in different tiers.

[BBM]

Why is Ross in Lower Mid in Eirika's mode? He's practically the only person who can get you a Rapier in Chapter 9. One of the Pirates in the lake below your starting point can't reach the sand with his Hand Axe, so you either need to send a Pirate of your own across the water, or try to have Vanessa kill the Pirate. Maybe I'm just making stuff up, but I recall that Pirate having high Speed. Like around 12 or 13. She won't double if that's the case, and she gets 2HKOd. Plus, he has a Hand Axe, so he can attack without receiving a counterattack, unless she's using a Javelin with crap accuracy. If you don't kill that Pirate, no Rapier for you. Vanessa can't just fly over to the village bypassing the Pirate either, because there are Archers there.

He has troubled getting to level 10, but no one is ORKOing enemies which aren't Soldiers or monsters reliably. Besides Seth. He can get a couple kills here and there, and one kill and one hit is a level for him. If you really really favour him, he can even be promoted by Chapter 4(Not that I'm advocating it), due to his high Exp. gains. He has trouble doubling as well, but so do other units.

[grandjackal]

Believe m, already tried that. Didn't work so well.

[Colonel M]

The reason I mention the gap is because, in a sense, how is Natasha > Forde, but Kyle > Natasha? Just seems a little looney if you ask me.

[Progenitus]

The reason I mention the gap is because, in a sense, how is Natasha > Forde, but Kyle > Natasha? Just seems a little looney if you ask me.

Sometimes there's just enough of a gap between two seemingly similar units where other ppl can slip in. e.g. Janaff and Ulki in RD.

Of course it's possible that Natasha > Kyle, or Natasha < Forde.

[Dat Nick]

wait, wasn't Myrrh>Tana agreed on?