FE9 Tier List

[Zkirsche]

I'm questioning Ike < Boyd. Ike has more availability and doesn't take up a unit slot the entire game, Boyd has to compete for a spot with the pallys and laguz - all have higher mov and can sometimes be better than him in the first place.

Then, Ike is better with supports, check out his 'A' support times:

Oscar: Chapter 13. 30 Avo

Titania: Chapter 26. 1 def, 15 Avo, 7 Hit

Soren: Chapter 22. 1 Atk, 22 Avo

Lethe: Chapter 23. 15 Avo, 15 Hit

Reyson: Chapter 28. 1 Atk, 15 Avo, 7 Hit

Ranulf: Chapter 26. 22 Avo, 7 Hit.

Elincia: Chapter 28. 15 Avo, 15 Hit

Then, look at Boyd's earliest 'A' times:

Titania: Chapter 18. 1 Atk, 1 Def, 15 Hit

Brom: Chapter 21. 3 Atk, 1 Def, 7 Hit

Mist: Chapter 25. Same as Brom

Ulki: Chapter 25. Same as Brom

So, Ike gives out better bonuses to better (And more) characters (Oscar and Reyson > Mist) at similar times (In the 20's). However, Ike's Oscar support is faster than any of Boyd's. Just a thought.

Statistically, let's take a look at how bad Ike crushes Boyd:

(Heh, my debate with Tino at least gives me easy access to Boyd's stats)

5/0 Boyd with an Iron/Hand Axe: 32 HP, 17/16 atk, 6/3 spd, 6 def, 1 res

8/0 Ike with the regal/steel sword: 24 HP, 16/17 Atk, 11/8 AS, 8 Def, 3 Res

Ike doubles, Boyd doesn't with the regal sword. Since the majority of enemies weild lances, their Atk gap is 3 (Ike has 15, Boyd has 18), this means that the enemeis need to have 13 or more def for Ike to deal less damage. only knights have that much def, and ike has the regal sword for those, which has no competition. Boyd does have the hammer, but he has competition for it (Titania).

Then, the number of lance users drop as the game goes on:

Chapter 7: 21/33 Enemies weild lances (63.636%)

Chapter 8: 23/42 Enemies weild lances (54.762%)

Chapter 9: 8/28 Enemies weild lances (28.571%)(Excluding the bandits)

Chapter 13: 13/29 Enemies weild lances (44.827%)(Excluding the ravens)

Chapter 14: 0 Enemies weild lances (0%)

As you can see, these figures drop from above 50% to below 50% mid-game, only increasing Ike's leads.

Also, Ike's essential in recruiting: Marcia, Jill, Ilyana, Astrid, Gatrie, Makalov, Haar, Tauroneo, Shinon and Nasir.

Boyd's essential in recruiting: Noone.

Ike's early to early-mid game win, better supports and overall better utility > Boyd's late-mid game victory where all units have caught up to the team statistically.

Ike > Boyd.

Whoops, I assumed Gurgurant had 18 Mt instead of 20. All that means is Ena needs more leveling to meet the minimum requirements, and she has a chapter full of laguz enemies as well as BEXP to work off of (you get tons of BEXP lategame).

Shame her team hates her, what with Jill, Marcia and Tanith flying over the trees and back again and the likes of Oscar and Kieran dodging everything in sight. Then there's the fact that Astrd/Makalov/Muarim/Mordecai all have more movement than her and are all great units. then you have transformation issues etcetera.

Also, bexp is not useful. Take Chapter 28's 400 bexp, for example. That's enougth to get Ena 1 level up. Yes, she'll level up quickly at the start of the next chapter, but all this takes up too much resources. To get to level 14, she needs 774 bexp. If we give her those levels from the bexp from chapters 27 and 28, that leaves 26 bexp left for other units. Not to mention, After 4 level-ups, Ena has a 57% chance of beign slightly def screwed, in which case she needs to get more bexp, which means we have to actually save up for her. Then you should realise that this bexp is not being used by anyone for a chapter, creating a bigger cost for Ena than usual. All in all, Ena is unlikely to be able to save an un-winnable game.

Also, there were various arguments against Ena in the post you made, showing how a 20/1 Ike can kill Ashnard with resolve.

Edited June 16, 2009 by kirsche

[-Cynthia-]

From the videos I've seen, Ashnard just seems to love attacking up close (meaning the Dragons can counter him). Anyone else noticed that?

Yes, Ashnard doesn't seem to actually use his 1-2 range on the Player Phase for whatever reason.

Edited June 16, 2009 by -Cynthia-

[Dr. Tarrasque]

They must've programmed his AI to match his masochist lust for battle.

ATM I'm seeing the possibility of Resolve Ena too low to count for much.

[Zkirsche]

Any thoughts on my Ike > Boyd argument?

Or my reiteration as to why Nasir < Elincia by showing how Nasir doesn't actually stop teh game being unwinnable?

[Dr. Tarrasque]

Any thoughts on my Ike > Boyd argument?

Or my reiteration as to why Nasir < Elincia by showing how Nasir doesn't actually stop teh game being unwinnable?

I'll wait to see if there's reasonable objections against it.

As for Nasir < Elincia, currently pondering this one as Ike needing significant stats to pwn that fucker is something to consider.

Resolve isn't usable for that fight right?

[Zkirsche]

Depends on the chapter you get resolve. Was it chapter 27? If so, then yes. BTW, if ike gets resolve to deal with the BK fight, Nasir can't get it.

[Dr. Tarrasque]

Depends on the chapter you get resolve. Was it chapter 27? If so, then yes. BTW, if ike gets resolve to deal with the BK fight, Nasir can't get it.

Yes, C27 in a chest and IIRC, you can't use the prep screen before the fight to give him Resolve then. I could be wrong though.

[Zkirsche]

Yes, C27 in a chest and IIRC, you can't use the prep screen before the fight to give him Resolve then. I could be wrong though.

Oh, then resolve isn't available for him in the BK, I thought the BK fight was chapter 28. Silly me.

[Vykan12]

ATM I'm seeing the possibility of Resolve Ena too low to count for much.

Maybe I should give more attention towards Ike then. Here are the minimum stats he needs to beat Ashnard if he himself takes resolve:

HP: 51

Str: 16

Def: X

Spd: 16

This way Ike is doing 7 damage per turn, 1 net damage considering Ashnard's hp regen. It'll take 60 turns and 4-8 sets of physics to pull that off.

Now let's look at some more realistic stuff. Ike's change of having 21 str or les at 20/20 is ~3%. We'll be nice and give him enough speed to double with resolve. If my calculations are correct, Ike is doing 28 net damage per turn. That's still 6 rounding.

Or we'll take the other side of the coin and give him his 20/20 str average, but 20 or less spd (somewhere around 1% chance). 23 net damage per turn, so still 6 rounding.

This is Ashnard's first form btw, the second will still take very long and most of the damage will have to be done by Giffca.

Now that we know Ashnard is stupid masochist enough to attack Ena at 1 range on E. phase, she's easily 2 rounding him given 3-4 levels or 2 and a seraph robe. If you want to overlook the fact that Ena saves the game if we win the lottery in the reverse direction, you must still consider how fast she can possibly speed up this battle.

IMO Ena simply being forced in the final chapter while not being dead weight there alone should put her above bottom tiers, they really are that bad.

Edited June 16, 2009 by Vykan12

[Vykan12]

Shame her team hates her, what with Jill, Marcia and Tanith flying over the trees and back again and the likes of Oscar and Kieran dodging everything in sight. Then there's the fact that Astrd/Makalov/Muarim/Mordecai all have more movement than her and are all great units. then you have transformation issues etcetera.

That makes no sense. Why would we go for max efficiency in chapter 28 if it's going to hurt us so badly in the final? At any rate, you could ferry Ena while she's untransformed then have her use a laguz stone/demi-band.

Also, bexp is not useful. Take Chapter 28's 400 bexp, for example. That's enougth to get Ena 1 level up. Yes, she'll level up quickly at the start of the next chapter, but all this takes up too much resources. To get to level 14, she needs 774 bexp. If we give her those levels from the bexp from chapters 27 and 28, that leaves 26 bexp left for other units.

Why do we care how much BEXP other units are getting? They can handle themselves against final generics just fine, so I'd take saving a few turns vs Ashnard > that any day.

All in all, Ena is unlikely to be able to save an un-winnable game.

Only if you purposely sabotage her because you're as masochist as Ashnard himself. If a unit has the potential to save the game, the return you get from putting resources into that unit is literally infinite.

Also, there were various arguments against Ena in the post you made, showing how a 20/1 Ike can kill Ashnard with resolve.

20/1 Ike with some slightly higher than average stats can 1RKO his first form with a double crit (wrath + resolve combo is needed). That was just something a friend of mine found out for a FE9 speedrun he's doing.

Edited June 16, 2009 by Vykan12

[Zkirsche]

Idk where you got 6RKOing from.

Since Resolve Ike doubles Ashnard, he deals 28 damage in one round. In one turn, he deals 50 damage. (14*4 = 56. 56-6 = 50). This means that Ike only 3RKO's Ashnard.

This is, however, exclduing crit. resolve Ike with 49 Atk (21 Str), and 24 skl has an 18% chance of critting Ashnard. This means he deals 56 damage in one round, thus changing a 3RKO into a 2RKO.

Ike gets 24 skl at level 10. It's quite likely he has it.

That makes no sense. Why would we go for max efficiency in chapter 28 if it's going to hurt us so badly in the final? At any rate, you could ferry Ena while she's untransformed then have her use a laguz stone/demi-band.

That makes a unit weak and uses up a scarce resource like a laguz stone. Demi band has high competition.

Also, less efficiency means less bexp. Everything balances out in the end.

Why do we care how much BEXP other units are getting? They can handle themselves against final generics just fine, so I'd take saving a few turns vs Ashnard > that any day.

Since Ike is so uberly screwed we could give some to him. Or we could level up Oscar/Kieran/Makalov/Astrid for better offensive and defensive results. Then there's laguz who're stuck to weak weapons and so want to get to level 20 to balance this out etcetera. Saying no one else wants the bexp is silly.

Only if you purposely sabotage her because you're as masochist as Ashnard himself. If a unit has the potential to save the game, the return you get from putting resources into that unit is literally infinite.

Untrue - the chances of said scenario in which the game is unwinnable is very unlikely and the resources coudl be poured into Ike for the same effect.

Edited June 16, 2009 by kirsche

[Tino]

I think he may have meant 'killing him in 6 turns', since you may not attack Ashnard on the player phase due to Ike's durability not being good enough or something. But I don't really care, really. I'll focus on Boyd vs. Ike instead.

[Zkirsche]

I think he may have meant 'killing him in 6 turns', since you may not attack Ashnard on the player phase due to Ike's durability not being good enough or something. But I don't really care, really. I'll focus on Boyd vs. Ike instead.

Still, you could just heal Ike after getting attacked so he still 2RKO's most of the time.

If you gvie Ike provoke or Oscar shade, you can have them in range of each other for support purposes.

Even if Ike could only just double Ashnard (He must have 21 AS) and with 16 luck (Something he gets at 20/10 as well), with the Oscar support, Ike has 108 avo, meaning Ashnard has 26.28 real hit against Ike. That's very good.

Edited June 16, 2009 by kirsche

[Vykan12]

Idk where you got 6RKOing from.

Ike hits Ashnard at full hp, gets healed by a physic, takes a hit on enemy phase then has a resolve counter. Takes another heal physic (full hp on P. phase), attacks, takes another (full hp on E. phase), end turn, the cycle repeats.

This is, however, exclduing crit.

Crit helps Ena too, though you do have a point.

Since Ike is so uberly screwed we could give some to him.

He could be lv 20 already.

You didn’t counter my point about putting resources into Ena to save the game has infinite return, so it doesn’t matter who she’s hurting. The return isn’t quite as strong for the slightly RNG screwed Ike, but you’re not honestly going to tell me a 20/20 Boyd is going to save 5 turns that a 20/17 Boyd wouldn’t.

Even if Ike could only just double Ashnard (He must have 21 AS) and with 16 luck (Something he gets at 20/10 as well), with the Oscar support, Ike has 108 avo, meaning Ashnard has 26.28 real hit against Ike. That's very good.

There's no way for Ike's supporters to be in range seeing as though Ashnard has 10 move and flying (he outranges everyone on the team). If Oscar comes along, Ike loses all his enemy phase attacks, and the amount of time it takes to kill him more than doubles.

Edited June 16, 2009 by Vykan12

[Dr. Tarrasque]

Ena out of bottom tier.

[Zkirsche]

Ike hits Ashnard at full hp, gets healed by a physic, takes a hit on enemy phase then has a resolve counter. Takes another heal physic (full hp on P. phase), attacks, takes another (full hp on E. phase), end turn, the cycle repeats.

Resolve Ike (As in, already activated resolve Ike) 2RKO's Ashnard though.

Crit helps Ena too, though you do have a point.

More so for Ike, however.

He could be lv 20 already.

If he's level 20, that just reduces his chance of RNG screwage.

You didn’t counter my point about putting resources into Ena to save the game has infinite return, so it doesn’t matter who she’s hurting. The return isn’t quite as strong for the slightly RNG screwed Ike, but you’re not honestly going to tell me a 20/20 Boyd is going to save 5 turns that a 20/17 Boyd wouldn’t.

Those resources could be going to ike.

See, if you're ike was getting RNG screwed, you'd give him things like Seraph robes, dracoshields, energy drops etcetera. With this, Ena's one (And pretty small) advantage (making the game winnable with an RNG screwed Ike with tonnes of resources) disappears.

[Vykan12]

Resolve Ike (As in, already activated resolve Ike) 2RKO's Ashnard though.

How can Ike attack Ashnard while already in resolve hp if he’s 2HKOed? He’ll die.

If he's level 20, that just reduces his chance of RNG screwage.

I accounted for that already. Those %chances of screwage I laid out were for a lv 20 Ike.

See, if your Ike was getting RNG screwed, you'd give him things like Seraph robes, dracoshields, energy drops etcetera.

There is that possibility, but if those stat boosters are available, I’ll still beat Ashnard faster by giving them to Ena.

[Tino]

Working on a Boyd vs. Ike thing, but before I continue I would like to know if the math I'm using here contains any fallacies, since I may use it more often in the future:

lvl 2 Boyd (iron): 30 hp, 15 atk, 3 spd, 87 hit, 2 crt, 5 def, 10 avo

lvl 2 Ike (iron): 20 hp, 10 atk, 5 spd, 118 hit, 3 crt, 5 def, 16 avo

Now, time to look at some enemy dudes.

3x lvl 1 fighter (iron): 24 hp, 13 atk, 0 spd, 81 hit, 3 def

1x lvl 2 fighter (iron): '', except 13-14 atk

1x lvl 1 bandit (iron): 25 hp, 13 atk, 0 spd, 79 hit, 2 def

1x lvl 2 bandit (iron): 28 hp, 14 atk, 0-1 spd, 79 hit, 4 def

1x lvl 3 bandit (iron): 29 hp, 14 atk, 1 spd, 79 hit, 5 def

2x lvl 2 myrmidon (iron): 18 hp, 9-10 atk, 3-4 spd, 102 hit, 3 def (6-8 avo)

So, Boyd 2RKOes 78% of the enemies and 3RKOes 22%. Ike 2RKOes 67% of the enemies and 3RKOes 33%.

Boyd gets 4RKOed by 78% of the enemies and 5-6RKOed by 22% of the enemies. Ike gets 3RKOed 78% of the enemies and 4-5RKOed by 22% of the enemies.

Boyd has about 1.33 times the concrete durability Ike has. So in order for Ike's avoidability to save his ass, it needs to give him hit rates that are at least 0.7 times as large as the ones Boyd faces. So, let's see.

81 hit fighter: 81 - 26 = 55 = 60 hit against Ike

81 hit fighter: 81 - 10 = 71 = 83 hit against Boyd

79 hit bandit: 79 - 26 = 53 = 56 hit against Ike

79 hit bandit: 79 - 10 = 69 = 81 hit against Boyd

102 hit myrmidon: 102 - 16 = 86 = 96 hit against Ike

102 hit myrmidon: 102 - 0 = 100 = 100 hit against Boyd

83 / 60 = 1.38 (x4)

81 / 56 = 1.45 (x3)

100 / 96 = 1.04 (x2)

11.95 / 9 = 1.33

Huzzah! Equal durability!

[Zkirsche]

Tino, Ike becomes level 3 not long after this chapter starts.

How can Ike attack Ashnard while already in resolve hp if he’s 2HKOed? He’ll die.

It's called healing. Besides, With the avo i gave you, the chances of him dying in those two attacks is very small (~7%)

I accounted for that already. Those %chances of screwage I laid out were for a lv 20 Ike.

Oh.

Still, very small chances. I don't think it's enougth for Ena to be moved out of bottom tier.

There is that possibility, but if those stat boosters are available, I’ll still beat Ashnard faster by giving them to Ena.

But the bonuses to teh team is greater when giving it to Ike, however, as ike can use it for more chapters, he also then becomes great against Ashnard.

I also think you're overrating Ena's offence:

Level 15 Ena, resolve activated: 50 Atk

Lol, 2 more damage in one round. Also, Ena has a much smaller chance to crit (12.5 Crit). BTW, with the Soren support active, Ike has the same Atk.

[Tino]

Tino, Ike becomes level 3 not long after this chapter starts.

Irrelevant, as it was more of a quick draft to see how that little piece of math would work out, but I first want to know if my math contains any holes. As soon as I know that I'll get to looking at levels and all that.

[Shadow Mir]

BTW, with the Soren support active, Ike has the same Atk.

Yeah, let's put some who can't even damage Ashnard in his range so that Ike does better against him!

See the problem with that logic?

[Vykan12]

It's called healing. Besides, With the avo i gave you, the chances of him dying in those two attacks is very small (~7%)

So Ike is being fully healed, attacks, takes a counter, then attacks again in that round? I'm not sure if resolve allows that to happen, though it's possible.

For those avo numbers, that was with the Oscar support which I already addressed. Without it, Ike only has at most 75 avo (going by 20/20 averages) and Ashnard has 144 hit, so he's facing 69 display (81 true).

Still, very small chances. I don't think it's enougth for Ena to be moved out of bottom tier.

I guess I should shift the focus of my arguments to how bad low/bottom is. If you really need convincing of how bad Bastian, Lucia and Rolf is, I'll save it for another post. I mean if Soren has negative utility earlygame, those 3 are taking it to a whole new level.

But the bonuses to teh team is greater when giving it to Ike, however, as ike can use it for more chapters, he also then becomes great against Ashnard.

That depends when the stat booster shows up. If it's very early, I likely put it towards someone else before Ike started getting RNG raped. If it's very late, I have little to lose from saving it for Ena. I'd say the only boosters where that might be true are some that show up right after Ike promotes.

[Zkirsche]

So Ike is being fully healed, attacks, takes a counter, then attacks again in that round? I'm not sure if resolve allows that to happen, though it's possible.

Perhaps reyson could be used...............

For those avo numbers, that was with the Oscar support which I already addressed. Without it, Ike only has at most 75 avo (going by 20/20 averages) and Ashnard has 144 hit, so he's facing 69 display (81 true).

There's no way for Ike's supporters to be in range seeing as though Ashnard has 10 move and flying (he outranges everyone on the team). If Oscar comes along, Ike loses all his enemy phase attacks, and the amount of time it takes to kill him more than doubles.

I guessed you missed my point about giving Ike provoke. Then Soren could have shade. This means that Ashnard would like to attack Ike more than everyone else. Also, if it's just for one player phrase, you coudl use Reyson.

I guess I should shift the focus of my arguments to how bad low/bottom is. If you really need convincing of how bad Bastian, Lucia and Rolf is, I'll save it for another post. I mean if Soren has negative utility earlygame, those 3 are taking it to a whole new level.

Yes they are BAD. But they can at least get supports and stuff. Ena has no real utility - only this stupidly unlikely scenario which can be easily fixed.

That depends when the stat booster shows up. If it's very early, I likely put it towards someone else before Ike started getting RNG raped. If it's very late, I have little to lose from saving it for Ena. I'd say the only boosters where that might be true are some that show up right after Ike promotes.

You could still give those boosters to Ike at that time. But whatever.

Edited June 16, 2009 by kirsche

[Shadow Mir]

Yes they are BAD. But they can at least get supports and stuff. Ena has no real utility - only this stupidly unlikely scenario which can be easily fixed.

Who are they going to support? No one cares for Rolf, and Lucia and Bastian are likely not seeing any use.

[Vykan12]

Perhaps reyson could be used...............

What… the… hell? If you’re willing to sacrifice him maybe, and then the effect would only be for a turn.

I guessed you missed my point about giving Ike provoke.

We aren’t sure how provoke or shade exactly work in this game. Has anyone ever seen Ashnard attack Ike instead of his supporter, even though they do 0 damage to him? I really, really doubt it.

Yes they are BAD. But they can at least get supports and stuff. Ena has no real utility - only this stupidly unlikely scenario which can be easily fixed.

I’m going to ignore the “and stuff” for obvious reasons. Support-wise, these characters contribute jack.

Rolf supports Rhys, Shinon, Marcia, Mist and Tauroneo. Not a single partner wants his crappy wind affinity.

Rhys has better options with Titania, Kieran and Mia, though even if he didn’t, 1 atk and 5 avo at B is… not fixing any of Rhys’ problems (low AS, poor durability).

Shinon probably isn’t in play, and the Rolf support only gives him durability boosts. That’s doing absolutely nothing for a character looking to avoid enemy phase counters.

Marcia is taking Kieran (same affinity but stays in range) and Tanith well before she’s looking for Rolf.

Mist has Titania, Boyd, Mordecai and Jill to turn to, and all those partners want her. Not happening.

That leaves Tauroneo, but this guy actually wants to reduce his durability so he can reach resolve hp sooner.

Next up is Lucia. Her Bastian and Janaff support might as well not exist (Janaff would get 15-22 avo from Oscar if he really needed it), which leaves Ilyana. She has Gatrie, Mia, Mordecai and Zihark, and even though some of those give lesser bonuses, they take effect over a much larger period of the game. After all Lucia only joins in 24 and takes 2 chapters to reach B, so that support is taking effect for all of 3 chapters.

Bastian, as covered earlier, only has Makalov. He can’t keep up with him and the support is even slower than Lucia’s so it will be in C most of the time. Rofl at Ena being worse than an outgoing 2 avo bonus to an already durable character.

You could still give those boosters to Ike at that time. But whatever.

That would require foresight the player doesn’t have.