Red Fox of Fire's character rankings topic

[Progenitus]

So while Callil hold significant speed leads over Soren, his Mag lead falls somewhat short of 50 million. Callil's the better Endgame candidate since she can double auras. Soren's taking up the spot of a better GM (anybody but debatably Rolf, Kyza, or Lethe) while Callil is pretty average compared to the rest of the CRK's and can easily gain Paragon use for 3-9.

Soren's part 3 is about the same as Boyd/Neph as well (both are generally 2-rounding, except generals who Boyd/Neph can't 2 round). Soren gets 2HKO'd but avoids player phase counters, Boyd/Neph get 3, sometimes 4HKO'd but take more player phase counters). He's somewhat Brom's polar opposite (Brom generally 3 rounds enemies, 4 rounds generals but is lolinvincible).

He's not very good, but Calill's horrible in her two chapters, so I fail to see how that matters.

There is that to take into account, I was just comparing them at equal levels for simplicity. Note though, Soren a lot more quality units to share with compared to Callil, while Callil has two chapters that give a lot of CEXP, one with easy Paragon access. Soren should have a level lead, but not a huge one, and Callil should make up the differences quickly due to being underleveled.

You make it sound like Marcia/Kieran/*insert random CRK* don't care that they can't get paragon for 3-9, which is blatantly false.

And Soren can easily have a 5 level lead or more. And actually has supports when Calill doesn't (or if she does, it's a C with some other CRK).

Soren can get about 1 level a chapter. He can be 20/15 or so by 3-11 (this is 10 levels in 9 chapters. Note that generally the higher level GMs are promoting or almost promoting, so someone like Gatrie could have gained 10 levels in 9 chapters as well. Gatrie would need more kills to gain those 10 levels since he gets less exp a kill than Soren, but he can make up for that due to his far superior performance, e.g. Gatrie gets twice the kills Soren gets or something. So 10 levels for Soren is not a lot of favoritism, if at all).

On the other hand, how much exp is Calill getting? She gets 2HKO'd in 2-E so she can't wall, which basically means all she does is park on a ledge and fire from above. However, she doesn't double, and even with the height advantage she has issues 2HKOing halbs. She *can* 2HKO warriors/snipers/swordmasters, but she has to watch out for those with crossbows (or the snipers in general who have lots of hit), because they have like 50 hit on her even WITH the height difference, and crossbows 2HKO her. Even bowguns do 13 damage to her with 50+ hit.

In addition, she's not really helping anyone by firing over the ledge on the west side (there's not a whole lot she can attack anywhere else with ledge advantage). All that's really there is the nullify general, which isn't that hard to get (just throw hand axes above it). To really help out with the chapter, you have to...

1) Help get items (be they hidden, or steal them, or kill the enemy that drops it).

2) Help the push towards Ludveck (where all the generals are) so you can reach ludveck easier, plus get more items.

3) Plug the west stairs.

Calill can't do #3, and if she just stays at the west ledge and fire at the enemies coming up the stairs she's not doing anything to help #1 (she's actually hurting us if she tries to attack the crossbow enemies, since they 2HKO her with 50 hit, meaning she has a chance to die and she's not even helping us beat the chapter in the process). If she does #2, this limits the amount of attacks she can get, since now she can't get height advantage, plus she has issues 2HKOing generals.

Regardless, the absolute most exp she can get in this chapter is 15 kills, since she's horrible on enemy phase so she can only get 15 attacks on her 15 player phases. Of course this is ridiculously unreasonable because the fact that she can't even attack stuff on the first few turns (she has to reach the enemies first), plus she's 2-3HKOing and can't even safely attack certain enemies, plus we're likely not taking all 15 turns to kill Ludveck. With all this considered, it's more something like, 5 kills + 5 regular attacks. This would give her 100-120 exp, since the enemies are a slightly lower level than her.

So now we have 3-9.

According to Int's enemy stats, and including reinforcements, I count 27 tier 2 enemies, 8 soldiers, plus the boss. The tier 2 enemies are level 7-9, and the soldiers are level 20.

Even if we gave Calill paragon, she'd need like 6 kills + 6 normal hits just to reach 20/10. When you consider that

1) We're not killing every single enemy in the chapter, since this is a kill boss, not rout.

2) Nearly every unit is better than her. Hell, the NPC paladins (I think we have 3 of them) are better (the gap between Calill and Kieran is like the gap between Soren and Titania).

3) Marcia/Kieran/Danved/Makalov all like paragon as well (technically Astrid/Geof too, but Astrid is terrible either way and it's retarded to give Geof paragon since he disapoofs until 4-5).

It's unrealistic to say that she can reach anything higher than 20/10 without major favoritism.

Also, Soren can start BEXPing at about 20/10 since he caps mag/skl/res. Of course it's not possible to give him full levels because of how little we get on HM, but just finishing off a few of his levels with BEXP (say he ends a chapter with 90 exp. You can easily cap his level off with BEXP) will significantly improve his performance (he's very likely to get +spd with BEXP, for starters). Or if you don't feel like the BEXP levels will help him, you can simply crown him whenever. You can of course crown Calill as well, but if you do it too early it makes her only lead over Soren completely worthless rather than mostly worthless (she now will gain exp too slowly to get her spd up).

So I could do comparisons with these assumed levels, but it would be pretty pointless, since it'd be basically what I just said. Neither are doubling without a ton of favoritism. Soren hits harder. And a lot harder than you think, at least compared to Calill.

Soren not taking up a unit slot? What? Ike is the only unit forced in part 3 except for Ranulf in 3-4, 3-7, 3-8, 3-10 and 3-E. Soren is never forced.

He's forced in 3-P and 3-1. And 3-2 and 3-5 give us so many unit slots we can field basically everyone. 3-10 gives us quite a bit of units too.

Edited June 16, 2009 by smash fanatic

[Mekkah]

I agree with smash here except for

3) Marcia/Kieran/Danved/Makalov all like paragon as well (technically Astrid/Geof too, but Astrid is terrible either way and it's retarded to give Geof paragon since he disapoofs until 4-5).

All of those generally receive poor reviews on all kinds of tier lists and character ratings. The only reason to give them Paragorn in 3-9 is if you plan to use them in 3-11 or later, but I don't see any reason why you would.

[Colonel M]

I'm thinking more of dragons.

Shouldn't something like ArcThunder OHKO them anyway?

I wouldn't quite call 2-E rich in CEXP for Calill, because she can't afford to be doing much, if any enemy phase action. This means that she's limited to basically 15 attacks.

Crossbows and Bowguns are iffy, but she sits on top of a ledge and still has Meteor (unless you're saving it for Pelleas thing or w/e). Though obviously I agree with you and smash that she has to tread carefully.

Edited June 16, 2009 by Colonel M

[Zkirsche]

I agree with Soren getting a 4.5 rating, especially since he has good transfer bonuses (Spd and Mag, but chance for spd and res if RNG blessed or resource usage). Thought I'd just chip that in.

All of those generally receive poor reviews on all kinds of tier lists and character ratings. The only reason to give them Paragorn in 3-9 is if you plan to use them in 3-11 or later, but I don't see any reason why you would

To make them good. Why would you use Calill later on? No real reason. You give her paragon to make her useful, but give paragon to Kieran/Devdan/Makalov and you can end up with quite decent units, especially Makalov with his awesome growths.

Edited June 16, 2009 by kirsche

[-Cynthia-]

To make them good. Why would you use Calill later on? No real reason. You give her paragon to make her useful, but give paragon to Kieran/Devdan/Makalov and you can end up with quite decent units, especially Makalov with his awesome growths.

She has better Endgame potential than any of them. None of them can reach the 34 AS needed to double stuff,while Callil has 35 AS with Rexflame, and she's incredibly likely to hit her Spd cap, unlike Kieran. Makalov might have good growths, but his bases are just terrible. 18 AS, 18 Str and locked to swords pre promotion? Yuck, plus his speed caps pretty much outweigh his good speed growth. 3-11 and beyond is also generally unkind to horses which hurts Kieran as well. Danved is really just average overall, and suffers from the speed cap issues. Callil also beats them all in supports since she has the best affinity, plus she has 1-2 range and hits Res rather than Def, she has quite a few advantages. Danved and Makalov are pretty subpar in the CRK chapters anyway, Kieran might be competitive, but remember there are two Paragons anyway.

Edited June 16, 2009 by -Cynthia-

[Zkirsche]

Best affinity? Mak has thunder. That's some serious competition. Who'd bring Calill to endgame? There's 16564236097437021658 for her to compete with for a spot. Mak/Dev/Kieran love the quick boost for at least a better part 3 and 4 (Pre-endgame)

[nflchamp]

I have always found Calill doubling auras in HM a funny proposition. She has 23-24 levels to gain before she can double auras and 10 chapters to get it (if you count each part of Endgame a seperate chapter).

[Jaybee]

Red Fox hasn't rated since last week...

Edited June 21, 2009 by Joshybear25

[Mekkah]

None of the CRKs are good endgame candidates, or good in part 4 for that matter. Thus when rating a single one of them, it's pretty fair to assume they're using Paragon, especially since there's two.

[Loki Laufeyson]

Even with beef Calill's endgame sucks. I dont care what you guys say.

[Vykan12]

That all depends on how much beef you give her.

[Jaybee]

Calill is one of those characters that need a ton of beefing up that will eventually neglect your other characters. Its like having one uber unit but lots of other sucky ones.

[Florete]

Mist

Mist is one of those characters that die from pretty much anything yet still finds a way to be useful. Anyway, that's how she is when she joins in 3-P. She is one of two healers, so obviously her usefulness will have a lot to do with how she compares to the other one, although I'm not going to make this a Mist vs. Rhys post.

So her reason for existence is fairly obvious. She keeps the rest of the team alive. And it's a good thing she has that, because otherwise she'd be one of the worst characters in the game. Her offense blows at first and even later if it becomes decent it will still be far behind practically everyone else.

Aside from healing, she has other various goodies. She gets a horse when she promotes, which gives various advantages and a disadvantage for 4-4's ledges. She also has her own promotion item, so getting her horse isn't an issue. She has a good affinity, Water, and being a healer means building supports is pretty easy for her. She also has four Bond supports to give out to people.

Her problem is the team she's in. Healing is always a nice attribute to have, but when the likes of Ike and Haar are running around, it might not be needed all the time. But she's still very much worth fielding and can easily get you out of tight positions. As a result, there's no easy way to score her. You have to decide how valuable her staff use is, which basically depends on the kind of characters you use.

7/10

Rolf

The apprentice Sniper is better this time around than he was in Path of Radiance, though that isn't saying much. Rolf has a lot of things going against him. There's the Snipers curse of virtually no one-range attacking. He has a decent growth spread, including the highest Strength growth in the game, but not appropriate bases. He also has Wind affinity, which isn't exactly the most fought over affinity.

So he joins in 3-P with the rest of the gang, and he's pretty much the worst character there. He generally can't do a whole lot of damage, never doubles, and is also bad defensively. But it isn't all bad. He attacks from range, minimizing his bad defenses. He has a high experience gain because of a low base level, so his Strength growth will get a chance to kick in so he can start doing damage. It'll take some time, but he'll eventually hit a few caps, allowing Bonus Experience to boost his other problem stats, allowing him to be a good character for part 4 and Endgame. This is good because he's in possibly the best class for Endgame, due to 1-3 range with the Double Bow and sweet caps.

But of course, he needs a good deal of time and resources to get there. He'll suck or be average for the majority of part 3, and that's just not good when there are plenty of other good units to choose from. I suppose you could say it makes it easier to train a weaker character, but that's kind of stretching it. In any case, Rolf is one of those guys that starts pretty awful but will turn out pretty awesome if given what he needs to get.

4/10

[CT075]

Rolf

The apprentice Sniper is better this time around than he was in Path of Radiance, though that isn't saying much. Rolf has a lot of things going against him. There's the Snipers curse of virtually no one-range attacking. He has a decent growth spread, including the highest Strength growth in the game, but not appropriate bases. He also has Wind affinity, which isn't exactly the most fought over affinity.

So he joins in 3-P with the rest of the gang, and he's pretty much the worst character there. He generally can't do a whole lot of damage, never doubles, and is also bad defensively. But it isn't all bad. He attacks from range, minimizing his bad defenses. He has a high experience gain because of a low base level, so his Strength growth will get a chance to kick in so he can start doing damage. It'll take some time, but he'll eventually hit a few caps, allowing Bonus Experience to boost his other problem stats, allowing him to be a good character for part 4 and Endgame. This is good because he's in possibly the best class for Endgame, due to 1-3 range with the Double Bow and sweet caps.

But of course, he needs a good deal of time and resources to get there. He'll suck or be average for the majority of part 3, and that's just not good when there are plenty of other good units to choose from. I suppose you could say it makes it easier to train a weaker character, but that's kind of stretching it. In any case, Rolf is one of those guys that starts pretty awful but will turn out pretty awesome if given what he needs to get.

4/10

He can possibly have the Silencer by the time Ranulf joins, or if not he can have it by 3-E. Not only does it mean that Rolf now has a pretty good offense, he has literally no competition for it (Shinon doesn't give a shit about having it, since he ORKOs things pretty well anyway) too. Not to mention the crit bonus. He's pretty much the RD incarnation of one of the Trainees from TSS. Just thought it might be a useful thought to have in there.

[Jaybee]

*Waits for Red Fox to rate Rhys*

[Shadow Mir]

*Waits to smash whatever argument Joshybear has in Rhys's favor*

[_____]

7/10 seems a bit high for Mist. Her offense is always going to suck really badly, and you're either going to need to somehow have her get 20 levels, which seems a bit ludicrous, at least to me, even in 10 chapters, or wait until 4-1 just to get an underleveled healer on a horse who still can't so much as tickle enemies. It just doesn't doesn't seem worth it.

[Mekkah]

but when the likes of Ike and Haar are running around

Depends. Ike and especially Haar can't take hits forever, and Mist healing them means they get to take more hits. Like if they went from 2HKOed to 7HKOed from Mist's healing, that's 5 extra rounds they can survive thanks to Mist. Doesn't sound worse per sé than Nolan getting healed by Laura to survive 2 more rounds, or something.

Of course, this game has hax healing items like Concotions, and if anything that is what makes healing a lot worse. Especially since people like Haar can afford to use those easily on player phase, since Canto and high move allows them to just plant themselves in the midst of enemies while using one, instead of having to take out one of those enemies for survival or whatever.

[dondon151]

Mist's combat is never good, sorry, unless you staff abuse and Paragon while giving her an Arms Scroll and a max forge Silver Sword or something.

I didn't get Mist to 20/0 until 4-4 on my HM playthrough, which actually kind of works in your favor because she can still climb those gaps >.> Let's assume that Mist generally won't promote without the 4-1 Holy Crown. Mist's extra movement and Canto on 4-1 can be supplanted by Physic staves, and once those Falcoknights are gone she doesn't have to stay back anymore. On 4-4 her movement unpromoted is the same as her movement promoted, but she can climb gaps instead of Canto, and I think the former is more important.

[Zkirsche]

7/10 is just too high for Mist really. That's just healing utility on it's own. Now this would be important with, say, the DB. But this is teh GM's she's stuck with. The only GM's that lack durability (Soren, Rofl, Lethe, Kyza and Lyre) are unlikely to be used and you're just left with Mist being able to heal a bunch of Tanky units, which is unimportant.

Mist is no better than a 6/10.

[Jaybee]

Like if they went from 2HKOed to 7HKOed from Mist's healing, that's 5 extra rounds they can survive thanks to Mist. Doesn't sound worse per sé than Nolan getting healed by Laura to survive 2 more rounds, or something.

Rhys can do the exact same thing.

[Progenitus]

Depends. Ike and especially Haar can't take hits forever, and Mist healing them means they get to take more hits. Like if they went from 2HKOed to 7HKOed from Mist's healing, that's 5 extra rounds they can survive thanks to Mist. Doesn't sound worse per sé than Nolan getting healed by Laura to survive 2 more rounds, or something.

The difference is that Ike/Haar (plus several other GMs) will need healing very infrequently. Assuming that no sages hit them, they could literally go an entire chapter without needing to be healed. That's how ridiculous their durability is.

Yeah it's nice if being healed makes my guy go from 2HKO'd back to 7HKO'd, but you first have to go from being 7HKO'd to 2HKO'd, and then after you get healed you have to drop back down again before healing becomes necessary. On the other hand, if Nolan is getting 3HKO'd, then it's very easy for him to drop to OHKO, then be healed back to 3HKO, then drop back to OHKO, and so on.

Still, I think she's a 7/10 (that's the score I gave her). I could see her going to a 6.5, but nothing lower than that. Even though uber healing items do exist, it's a lot more convenient to have a staff user heal them so the fighter doesn't waste his turn using an item. They're like a poor man's heron.

7/10 is just too high for Mist really. That's just healing utility on it's own. Now this would be important with, say, the DB. But this is teh GM's she's stuck with. The only GM's that lack durability (Soren, Rofl, Lethe, Kyza and Lyre) are unlikely to be used and you're just left with Mist being able to heal a bunch of Tanky units, which is unimportant.

Mist is no better than a 6/10.

Not really. Titania is like 4HKO'd. Oscar is like 3HKO'd, though has decent avoid after supports. Boyd is 3HKO'd. Neph is 3HKO'd. Mia is 2HKO'd though with decent avoid.

There are fewer GMs in danger of dying than DB, but there ARE GMs that need healing. Mist isn't useless.

Also, Lethe/Kyza have decent durability for part 3. Lethe has 51 HP/18 def/20 res/66 avoid and Kyza has 55 HP/20 def/10 res/58 avoid (in comparison, Titania with a B support has 36-37 HP, ~21 def, ~15 res, low 60s avoid). They can survive fine in part 3. Their problem is everything else.

Rhys can do the exact same thing.

Except Mist stops getting doubled by enemies a lot faster than Rhys does (in fact I think Rhys gets doubled the entire game), and Rhys' offense lead doesn't even matter after awhile, since he caps mag so fast and light sucks. Even though it's better, it'll hardly ever apply after early part 3 because you just have better attackers available. Plus Mist has more mobility and a superior affinity.

[Mekkah]

Rhys can do the exact same thing.

Doesn't have anything to do with how good Mist's healing utility is. Unless your point was "Rhys cuts into healing's uniqueness", but wtv.

[Shadow Mir]

Except Mist stops getting doubled by enemies a lot faster than Rhys does (in fact I think Rhys gets doubled the entire game), and Rhys' offense lead doesn't even matter after awhile, since he caps mag so fast and light sucks. Even though it's better, it'll hardly ever apply after early part 3 because you just have better attackers available. Plus Mist has more mobility and a superior affinity.

Thank you. I've been trying to tell Joshybear this since he attempted to bring up that Rhys is better, but he refuses to concede this.